I am very interested on the topic but know very little in comparison to the people I've seen posting. I was hoping for some help on the topic, including some good sources as well as some of your opinions and/or input.
Any help is greatly appreciated!! (Topic "Time is not real")
Thanks a lot,
foursquare
Full Version: Writing a Philosophy Essay on "Time is not real" (HELP)
Time as we experience in life via consciousness is real. However, time, as conceptualized by people in general and in physics is not real, but an abstraction. Treating time as real leads to fallacies.
For example, the first fallacy one runs into by treating time as real is time travel paradoxes. Around the turn of the 19th century, H.G. Wells popularized the notion of time as the fourth dimension with his science fiction novel The Time Machine. Time travel results in all sorts of nonsensical paradoxes such as the ability to kill one's grandfather.
So then one is led to say that perhaps time is real, but one can't go backward in it, only forward. That leads to another problem. If time is a real dimension, then the past and the future have some kind of existence. That is, the future is a real "place" in space-time that if we just wait a bit we will be there. However, a 4-d spacetime with a real time dimension implies that the future is pre-ordained, fixed for all time, and unchangeable. That is clearly not the case (see the free will discussions).
A counter-argument (that time is indeed real) is the fact that time is essential in physical laws, forumlas, and computations. Physics equations are full of the variable "t" for time. However, the variable t can be replaced with an equivalent energy term so that "t" disappears from physics. Instead of velocity (meters per second) we have momentum or energy, for example. This makes the equations more complex, and unwieldy, so no physicist does it. Thus it can be seen that time is merely a computational convenience for physics as well as ordinary thinking and planning, not something that has an actual existence. The illusion of the reality of time comes form our very real sensation of the passage of time, which is an aspect of human experience (consciousness).
For example, the first fallacy one runs into by treating time as real is time travel paradoxes. Around the turn of the 19th century, H.G. Wells popularized the notion of time as the fourth dimension with his science fiction novel The Time Machine. Time travel results in all sorts of nonsensical paradoxes such as the ability to kill one's grandfather.
So then one is led to say that perhaps time is real, but one can't go backward in it, only forward. That leads to another problem. If time is a real dimension, then the past and the future have some kind of existence. That is, the future is a real "place" in space-time that if we just wait a bit we will be there. However, a 4-d spacetime with a real time dimension implies that the future is pre-ordained, fixed for all time, and unchangeable. That is clearly not the case (see the free will discussions).
A counter-argument (that time is indeed real) is the fact that time is essential in physical laws, forumlas, and computations. Physics equations are full of the variable "t" for time. However, the variable t can be replaced with an equivalent energy term so that "t" disappears from physics. Instead of velocity (meters per second) we have momentum or energy, for example. This makes the equations more complex, and unwieldy, so no physicist does it. Thus it can be seen that time is merely a computational convenience for physics as well as ordinary thinking and planning, not something that has an actual existence. The illusion of the reality of time comes form our very real sensation of the passage of time, which is an aspect of human experience (consciousness).
Oh my, well you asked the right place, I have been thinking about such things a great deal, here are some thoughts I have on this matter.
Time is the perception of actions relative to other actions. That is, Time - is how we as conscious beings perceive the order of events, by judging them relatively to events which we perceive as consistent. In layman's terms this means that we perceive time by comparing different events relative to things such as the sun, daylight, the moon, etc.
How we measure time is by taking something fairly consistent, like the cycles of the moon and judging the length of an event relative to something such as the moon. In the modern day we judge events relative to things such as how long it takes for an electrical signal to make its way through a circuit. That would be in reference to what is known as digital watches.
Another example is how long it takes a piece of machinery to go through its mechanical circuit and cause a change. This is relative to mechanical watches which count the seconds, hours and even days of what we perceive as time.
So, what this means is, Time is a way of judging an action or event based off of another event perceived as being consistent. The reality about time is that it is a way for us to observe the universe by comparing different things in the universe with each other.
What we are really saying when we say something like "It will take one month" is that the proposed paper will take one mooon rotation to complete. Thus we are comparing a variable (the paper) to a constant (the moons rotation around the earth) to give a comparison, thereby allowing a person to judge when they can expect to receive said paper.
Hope I am not being to cryptic, if you have any questions let me know.
Time is the perception of actions relative to other actions. That is, Time - is how we as conscious beings perceive the order of events, by judging them relatively to events which we perceive as consistent. In layman's terms this means that we perceive time by comparing different events relative to things such as the sun, daylight, the moon, etc.
How we measure time is by taking something fairly consistent, like the cycles of the moon and judging the length of an event relative to something such as the moon. In the modern day we judge events relative to things such as how long it takes for an electrical signal to make its way through a circuit. That would be in reference to what is known as digital watches.
Another example is how long it takes a piece of machinery to go through its mechanical circuit and cause a change. This is relative to mechanical watches which count the seconds, hours and even days of what we perceive as time.
So, what this means is, Time is a way of judging an action or event based off of another event perceived as being consistent. The reality about time is that it is a way for us to observe the universe by comparing different things in the universe with each other.
What we are really saying when we say something like "It will take one month" is that the proposed paper will take one mooon rotation to complete. Thus we are comparing a variable (the paper) to a constant (the moons rotation around the earth) to give a comparison, thereby allowing a person to judge when they can expect to receive said paper.
Hope I am not being to cryptic, if you have any questions let me know.
Time isn't real: Many terms people are familiar with are entirely human contructs and have no relation to Reality. Time is one of them in my opinion, although as a self-referencing idea it works as max has pointed out. We measure the passing of time by recording whats happening in this moment and giving it a marker like a date. Imagine the world without a recorded history, or without techniques for dating objects...there would only be this moment right here and now. The world would quickly forget grudges in a generation or two, the would become more fluid.
Humans see time as a linear process, everything has a past, present and future. I doubt this is the true reality of what time is. Our science fiction stories of time travel are so far from the reality that we are fools to believe its possible. Time is only a way to measure the transformation of energy in the Universe, we will never be able to return to a previous state by going backwards in it as if times a large hamster wheel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time
Humans see time as a linear process, everything has a past, present and future. I doubt this is the true reality of what time is. Our science fiction stories of time travel are so far from the reality that we are fools to believe its possible. Time is only a way to measure the transformation of energy in the Universe, we will never be able to return to a previous state by going backwards in it as if times a large hamster wheel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time
QUOTE
In 5th century BC Greece, Antiphon the Sophist, in a fragment preserved from his chief work On Truth held that: "Time is not a reality (hupostasis), but a concept (noêma) or a measure (metron)." Parmenides went further, maintaining that time, motion, and change were illusions, leading to the paradoxes of his follower Zeno.[18] Time as illusion is also a common theme in Buddhist thought,[19] and some modern philosophers have carried on with this theme. J. M. E. McTaggart's 1908 The Unreality of Time, for example, argues that time is unreal (see also The flow of time).
However, these arguments often center around what it means for something to be "real". Modern physicists generally consider time to be as "real" as space, though others such as Julian Barbour in his The End of Time argue that quantum equations of the universe take their true form when expressed in the timeless configuration spacerealm containing every possible "Now" or momentary configuration of the universe, which he terms 'platonia'.[20]
However, these arguments often center around what it means for something to be "real". Modern physicists generally consider time to be as "real" as space, though others such as Julian Barbour in his The End of Time argue that quantum equations of the universe take their true form when expressed in the timeless configuration spacerealm containing every possible "Now" or momentary configuration of the universe, which he terms 'platonia'.[20]
Also see the very interesting book A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy Of Godel And Einstein:
http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Time-F...n/dp/0465092934
Time is indeed unreal.
http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Time-F...n/dp/0465092934
Time is indeed unreal.
In reference to proposed time travel, the actual concept of traveling through time is fairly simple. I think of time as the way of measuring changes in the universe to other changes, so in order to go backwards through time its quite simple.
One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period. Of course actually doing such a thing is a whole different matter. But in essence, since nothing is created or destroyed, you only need to revert matter to a previous state.
Of course the implications for such a thing as well as the mind boggling mathematical equations required just to calculate such a feat are enormous. Not to mention the hundreds of things which could go wrong.
One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period. Of course actually doing such a thing is a whole different matter. But in essence, since nothing is created or destroyed, you only need to revert matter to a previous state.
Of course the implications for such a thing as well as the mind boggling mathematical equations required just to calculate such a feat are enormous. Not to mention the hundreds of things which could go wrong.
THINGS TO THINK ABOUT
====================
ABOUT REALITY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality
ABOUT EXISTENCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonexistence
ABOUT ONTOLOGY--the study of existence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology
ABOUT TIME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time
====================
ABOUT REALITY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality
ABOUT EXISTENCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonexistence
ABOUT ONTOLOGY--the study of existence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology
ABOUT TIME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time
QUOTE(max)
One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period
This would require that matter had knowledge of its previous state and/or the laws of physics can work in reverse.
Yes I realize there are many problems with the concepts of time travel right now, if there were not, then we would probably have already traveled back in "time".
Wow! Thanks so much guys. You have all really helped me start to wrap my head around the concept. Max, i will surly need more help and so i will most likely ask.
Thanks again for all the help!!! Please be sure to keep commenting when other thoughts occur on the matter and do not hesitate to contact me (e-mail) if you have anything you want to add.
Foursquare
Thanks again for all the help!!! Please be sure to keep commenting when other thoughts occur on the matter and do not hesitate to contact me (e-mail) if you have anything you want to add.
Foursquare
QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 14, 2007, 01:39 PM) 
Yes I realize there are many problems with the concepts of time travel right now, if there were not, then we would probably have already traveled back in "time".
Indeed. If time travel were technically possible, it will be invented in the future, and there would be time tourists all around us, killing their ancestors' enemies and such.
QUOTE(Rick @ Nov 14, 2007, 02:49 PM)
...If time travel were technically possible, it will be invented in the future, and there would be time tourists all around us, killing their ancestors' enemies and such.
Amusing!
BUT SERIOUSLY
I feel that it will eventually be possible to time-travel, but only to the past. I think of it as the ultimate in lie-detecting. To a limited extent, we can do it now.
Without any control over of what we see and hear, we will simply be observers of what actually happened. Imagine the value this will have in our courts.
Thanks for all the input rick!! and others, keep it coming!!
foursquare
foursquare
QUOTE(maximus242 @ Nov 14, 2007, 11:18 AM)
In reference to proposed time travel, the actual concept of traveling through time is fairly simple. I think of time as the way of measuring changes in the universe to other changes, so in order to go backwards through time its quite simple.
One would simply need to cause all of the matter in the universe to revert to the state it was in at the proposed time period. Of course actually doing such a thing is a whole different matter. But in essence, since nothing is created or destroyed, you only need to revert matter to a previous state.
Of course the implications for such a thing as well as the mind boggling mathematical equations required just to calculate such a feat are enormous. Not to mention the hundreds of things which could go wrong.
Hey, that's a pretty good observation there Max. But, being that time is the movement of matter throughout space, then we'd have two major "dimensions" that we'd have to manipulate. And then, if energy and matter are exchangable as proposed, there you have a whole other problem! Forget it! I like the "time is not real' statement better already. But, if time is not real, what is real, then? Personally, I view time a little bit the way T_L does: some kind of bipolar abstraction. objective and subjective. Relative and otherwise. Hate it and love it. Too much and not enough of. A year seemed like a decade when I was a kid. My granmother tells me that Christmans comes around every 3 months or so to her, nowadays. Now, as I reason about my purpose in life, and how I am going to go about it, I realize how much I hate time; as it drags on forever, or so it seems, before I can get on with the things I've set out to accomplish before I run out of... you know!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.