How come the great religions, through their sacred scriptures--the Bible, the Koran, etc.,--have a lot to say about the nature and function of money?

Money makes the world go round, no?

Or does God?

Why do they have alot to say about money?

about the beginning of complementary and communiity currency (ccc) in toronto in 1998

btw, members of the flf were there, in 1998, and saw the mayor buy the first issue of toronto dollars.

i still keep a $5.00t note that i actually earned that evening. i plan to keep it as sovenir of that great event in the history of money in canada.

it was paid to me by a magazine editor after i showed him a chapter from an old, out-of-print book (1936), on basic economics, by the late professor humfrey michell of mcmaster university, hamilton.

the editor wanted me to let him use the book so he could check out the information contained in the chapter on the nature and function of money. i offered him the use of the book, for free. but he insisted on paying me--a great example of the use of a local currency.

about professor humfrey michell, mcmaster university

in his book, professor michell makes it clear that "anything acceptable to people using it, can be used as a currency" it does not have to be federally produced or approvoed fiat currency. also, it can work in cooperation with the federal stuff, not contrary to it. for example, if i only have american dollars, is it not legal for me to pay you with it? and would you not accept it? of course, because you know you can use it elsewhere?

the book contains pictures of stones from the island on yap, off australia, which were then in use. i understand there is one of the large stones on the lawn, near the bank-of-canada museum in ottawa.

there is also a picture of a currency that was used in perth, ontario--denominated in pounds and dollars, and of playing cards, which were used in quebec, for decades, during the french regime. michell makes the point that local currencies work very well. his last chapter is an urgent call for monetary reform.

no one listened, so it took hitler and ww 2 to pull us out of a deep depression. how stupid we were. i know, i was there.

internet link: http://www.torontodollar.com
date: 26-jan-2005 - 2:37 am
from: the rev.

for those interested in the story of money, the bank of canada museum has wonderful information. for the story of card money see the link, below.

why were the french forced to use cards? coins were scarce. much of it, on the way from france to quebec was stolen by privateers, many of them british.

and, of course, many ships went down in those atlantic storms. g-d knows how much silver and gold there is in the deep oceans of the world. maybe, as technologies improve, the day will come when much of it will be recovered.

but why wait 'till then? if the french quebecers were smart enough to use cards, we should be smart enough to use ccc. right?

internet link: http://www.currencymuseum.ca/eng/collection/toc_notes.php about the bank of canada currency museum and card money

===============================================

Does anyone know why the capitals do not reproduce above? Is it because I copied this ffrom my own URL? http://www.flfcanada.com

I have never seen a bug like that, with the capital letters being changed to lower case. You might edit the poste and try to fix it manually.

Rick, thanks. As long as what I wrote is understood, I will leave it as is. Doing it manually is a little time-consuming. Meanwhile I will see how the below post flys.

========= USURY IS THE ROOT OF MUCH EVIL=====
=================00000000000==================
On Sunday 27 March 2005 01:10 pm, Tom Kennedy wrote:
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:42:50 -0500
From: "Thomas J. Sherlock" <[email protected]>
Subject: Interest/Usury and Holy Scriptures

Could anyone point me to any sources on the web which discuss interest
and/or usury in holy scriptures? Several contributors of ijccr have in the
past referenced passages in the Bible.

How about the Koran? Or the Torah, or the Rig Veda, or the Tripitaka?

Does anyone have an article or presentation which addressed this
connection?

I'm trying to prepare a seven-minute presentation on the corruptive nature
of interest (usury).

Here is a rough outline I'm considering:

1. Open with a short story. I believe that John Turmel has a story in his
website which makes it clear that interest is problematic.
www.cyberclass.net/turmel

2. I'll mention such international institution such as the World Bank and
the IMF which successful put country in to permanent debt. Maybe I'll
mention the African debt forgiveness organization that Bono promotes: DATA

3.I'll mention the process by which money is created in the U.S.: The Fed,
Japan, China, Britain etc buying U.S. Treasury bonds

4. I'll quote from some of the holy scriptures.

5. I may make references to JAK bank

Of course the one question this is sure to be asked is: How will a bank
make a profit? Beyond a service charge for the loan and charges for other
bank services, I have no other response. Any suggestion regarding
profit-making? Thanks.

Pax,
Tom Sherlock

******************************************************************

Comment by Tom J. Kennedy:

Greetings TCN readers, Tom Sherlcok, ijccr readers and/or otherwise:
Tom, I trust that you are receiving plenty of input from readers at ijccr
and/or otherwise. Here's my input.

I invite you to read the information posted at the UsuryFree Network

www.cyberclass.net/usuryfree.htm
I also invite you to read the article 'UsuryFreed Trumps UsuryFreed at this
URL:
www.cyberclass.net/usurygreed.htm

In addition I have complied a series of quotes about usury. These are
collected from the book 'Capitalism, Catholicism and Cooperativism'
authored by Estelle and Mario Carota, Summerside, Prince Edward Island,
Canada 1990

It is interesting to note that much of Estelle and Mario's research about
'usury' centred around archived documents pertaining to the Holy Office of
the Vatican. In recent centuries, the Catholic Church has become very much
involved in banking practices including exacting usury. In fact, in this
21st Century, the Vatican has its own bank and practically all the dioceses
are exacting usury as income from their investment portfolios and bank
deposits. What's going on here?

Rev Patrick Cleary from Ireland explains:

"It has been said that the Church has changed her doctrine on the subject
of usury. The fathers condemned usury with no uncertain voice; the Councils
time and time again pounced upon it; at Vienne the defenders of its
legality were dubbed heretics; Benedict XIV synthesized the traditional
doctrine; and all declared that for 100 pounds one may not receive 105
pounds. Yet, here we, educated Catholics of the 20th Century not only
venture to take 105 pounds for 100 pounds, but declare that it is perfectly
legal to do so. What was heresy in the days of Vienne is heresy no longer.
Surely the Church has changed her doctrine - what need have we of
witnesses, we have ourselves beheld the change." Rev. Patrick Cleary,
Ireland, June 17, 1914

www.cyberclass.net
**********************************************************************
Quotes about usury..

"The whole amount paid in usury, even when the sum has been paid regularly,
should never exceed the original amount." The Justinian Code, 527 A.D.

"Usurers are commom - if there were not such a multitude of usurers, there
would not be such a multitude of poor." - St Gregory, Contra Usurarios

"All rulers and magistrates knowingly maintaining laws that sanctioned
usury and that compelled debtors to observe usurious contracts are to incur
excommunication, and requires the legislation in question to be revoked
within three months. Since the true nature of usurious transactions is
often concealed beneath various devices, money lenders are to be compelled
by the ecclesiastical authorities to submit their accounts to examination."
Council of Vienne, 1311

"As Christians we are obliged in many instances to help our sisters and
brothers in Christ with a loan. Christ himself teaches this: 'Do not refuse
to len to him who asks you.' In most circumstances, there is no other true
and just way to help except through a loan contract. But, if we follow our
conscience, we cannot do this and seek gain for ourselves by charging
interest." Pope Benedict XIV, Vatican City, 1745

"Tend the flock of God . not yet for filthy lucre but willingly." St.
Peter, (1 Peter 5:2) St. Paul (1 Timothy 3:8)

"Come, you men of riches, bemoan yourselves and cry aloud over the miseries
that are to overtake you. Corruption has fallen on your riches; all your
fine clothes are moth-eaten, and your gold and silver have long lain
rusting. That rust will bear witness against you, will bite your flesh like
flame. These are the last days given you, and you have spent them in
heaping up a store of retribution. You have kept back the pay of the
workmen who reaped your lands, and it is there to cry out against you; the
Lord of hosts has listened to their complaint. You have feasted here on
earth, you have comforted your hearts with luxuries on this day that dooms
you to slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the innocent man, while
he offered no resistance." St James (James 5: 1-16)

"The so called prophets and martyers, as we shall plainly prove, collect
money not merely from the wealthy but also from the poor, the orphan and
the widow .. Answer me this: does a prophet dye his hair? Does he stain his
eyelids? Does he seek to adorn himself? Does a prophet play with tablets
and dice? Does he lend money out a usury? Let them honestly answer the
question 'may a prophet do such things or not' "

Apollonius, 2nd Century (History Eccelsiastical, Eusebius, Bk V, Chapter
18)

"The law prohibits a brother from taking usury; designating as a brother
not only him who is born of the same parents, but also one of the same race
and sentiments, and a participator in the same word, deeming it right not
to take usury for money, but with open hands and heart to bestow on those
who need. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata,Bk. 11, Chapter 18)

"It is incumbent on Christians not to receive usury. On the contrary,
Christians are bound to lend to such as are not likely to be able to
repay." Tertullian, Adversus Marcion, Bk IV, Chapter 17)

"Everyone is desirous of increasing his estate, and forgetful of what
believers had done before in the times of the Apostles, or always ought to
do, Christians with the insatiable ardour of covetousness devoted
themselves to the increase of their property. Among the priests there was
no devotedness to religion, among the ministers there was no sound faith,
in their works there was no mercy. Very many bishops who ought to furnish
both exhortation and example to others, despising their divine charge,
became agents in secular business, forsook their throne, deserted their
people, wandered about over foreign provinces, hunted the markets for
gainful merchandise, while brethren were starving in the church. They
sought to possess money in hoards, they seized estates by crafty deceits,
they increased their gains by multiplying usuries. What do not such as we
deserve for sins of this kind." (St. Cypian, 251, 'De Lapsis,' Chapters 5 &
6)

"I have seen a sad sight, fine young fellows dragged to the market place,
that they might be sold to pay their father's debts." St Basil, Ps XIV

"Such a benefit is a fraudulent one, such kindness damnable. If you are a
Christian why do you seek a return for your idle money . if you are a
Christian I do not ask you to give as a gift, but I do ask you so to demand
back your money that you rob not the other - remember that he is needy, and
a poor man." St Hilary, (In PS. XIV. Migne, P.L. 9 col.307)

"It is the custom in the country to demand usury fro corn, wine and oil.
Thus in the winter season one gives ten measures so that he may receive
fifteen in the harvest time, justifying himself thus; is it not right that
I get a half-meausre when by my liberality the other has nine measures and
a half? Err not. God is not mocked. Did you give it to a prosperous person
or not? If he were prosperous then you should not have given it, if he were
not, then you should not ask it back as if he were." St Jerome (Migne, P.L.
tom 25, col 176-7)

"All usurers are murderers of the poor." St Augustine

"Lend to those from whom you hope for no restitution." St Basil

'Should any cleric be found to have taken usury, let him be degraded and
excommunicated. Moreover, if any layman shall be proved a usurer, and shall
have promised when corrected to abstain from the practice, let him be
pardoned. If on the contrary, he perseveres in his evil-doing he is to be
excommunicated." Council of Elvira, 305 A.D. (Mansi II, 9. Can 20)

"Since many so called Christians animated with the desire of increasing
their property and for such purpose making illicit gain, forgetful of the
divine scriptures which say: 'He gave not his money in usury,' lend their
money taking usury thereon, this Synod decrees that, if hereafter any shall
be found taking usury on money or goods, or carrying on trade for the sake
of profit, he shall be deposed from the clergy and excommunicated." Council
of Nice, 325 A.D.

"All Christians are compelled to avoid usury." Council of Meaux, 845 A.D.

"We denounce that detestable and disgraceful rapacity condemned alike by
human and divine law, by the Old and the New Testament, that insatiable
rapacity of usurers, whom we order that no archbishop, that no bishop, or
abbot, or cleric shall presume to receive back usurers except with the very
greatest caution, that on the contrary usurers are to be regarded as
infamous and shall if they do not repent be deprived of Christian burial."

Second Lateran Council, 1139 A.D.

"Since almost in every place the crime of usury has become so prevalent,
that many people give up all other business and become usurers, as if it
were lawful, regarding not its prohibition in both Testaments, we ordain
that manifest usurers shall not be admitted to communion, nor if they die
in their sins receive Christian burial, and that no priest shall accept
their alms." Third Lateran Council, 1179 A.D.

"Individuals and corporations are forbade to let houses to strangers for
the practice of manifest usury; and moreover, the owners of these houses
should expel such persons within three months, if they have already taken
up their residence in them. The wills of public usurers are declared
invalid. Christians are forbade to act as witnesses to usurers. Priests
might not hear confessions of usurers, nor give ecclesiastical burial to
manifest usurers - unless they have completely restored their ill-gotten
gain." Second Council of Lyons, 1274 A.D.

"If any person falls into such error that he pertinaciously presumes to
affirm that it is not sinful to practice usury he is to be punished as a
heretic." Council of Vienne, 1311 A.D.

"This is the proper interpretation of usury, when gain is sought to be
acquired from the use of a thing not in itself fruitful, without labour,
expense, or risk on the part of the lender." Fifth Lateral Council, 1512
A.D.

"He who takes usury for a loan of money acts unjustly for he sells what
does not exist, and such an action evidently constitutes an inequality and
consequently an injustice. To understand this we should note that there are
certain things whose use consists in their consumption, as in using wine we
consume it, or as we consume wheat in using it for food. In such cases
then, the use of a thing is inseparable from the thing itself, hence he, to
whom the use is granted has the thing itself granted to him. Hence in loans
of articles of this description, ownership itself is handed over. If
therefore a man wanted to make two distinct sales, one of the wine, the
other of the use of the wine, he would either be selling the same thing
twice, or selling what does not exist - wherefore manifestly he would
commit a sin against justice. Similarly, he commits injustice who lends
wine or wheat seeking double recompense; the one, the return of a quantity
equal to the loan; the other, which we call usury, a payment for its use.
But there are some things, which to use is not to consume (that is which
are not consumed in use): thus one uses a house by dwelling in it, not by
destroying it, and in such a case, a man may transfer the ownership of the
house to another, keeping for himself the right to dwell in it for some
time, or conversely, one may grant the use of the house to another whilst
reserving its ownership. Such a man might lawfully receive a price for the
use of the house, whilst in addition he may demand back the house which he
has lent - the course of action adopted in letting and hiring of houses.
Now Aristotle tells, in the fifth book of his Ethics and the first book of
his Politics, that money was chiefly devised for making exchanges - hence
the primary and proper use of money consists in its consumption or spending
(consumption sive distraction), after the fashion in which it is spent in
exchange. It follows then that it is wrong in itself to take a price
(usury) for the use of money lent, and as in the case of other offenses
against injustice, one is bound to make restitution of his unjustly
acquired money." St Thomas (Sum. Theol. 2, 2, Q.78, art. I)

"In the contract of mutuum ownership passes, for the mutuum signifies I
give you what is mine; from this it follows that if the lender of a sum of
money takes any return for that sum, he takes it from what does not belong
to him - he sells what is not his own. Even admitting that the money
remains the lender's, still money does not naturally produce any fruit like
other productive things - there is merely a sort of fruit arising from the
industry of the borrower. Hence, he who wishes a return for money lent
seeks what is really the fruit of another's labour, and moreover, it is the
fruit of labour which has not been handed over in virtue of the contract
of mutuum." Scotus, a prominent scholastic (Lib. iv, Sententiarum, dist.
xv. Q. ii)

"It is filthy lucre when one in the harvest of time through avarice and not
through necessity gets grain at two denarii per peck and keeps it till he
gets four or six."

Pope Julius, 337 A.D

"There is injustice in usury. Usurers should make restitution either to the
persons from whom they exacted their usuries or to their heirs." Pope
Alexander III

"He is to be accounted a usurer, who lends a certain sum to one who is
about to make a voyage, or attend a market, on condition of receiving more
than he lent merely because he undertakes the risks." Pope Gregory IX

"The contract (a contract of loan at usury) in the form given is usurious,
nor can it be reduced to any form other than that of mutuum with a
stipulation for an income derivable from the mutuum itself. Since such
stipulations are forbidden alike by divine and natural law, it follows that
there can be no excusing cause arising from custom or even from civil law;
for the same reason it is unlawful for rich and poor alike, it is unlawful
ever for the most miserable, to draw money from such contracts, or to
retain it." Pope Gregory XIII

"The nature of the sin called usury, has its proper place and origin in a
loan contract. This financial contract, as long as it is made between
consenting parties, demands, by its very nature, that the borrower only
return to the lender as much as was received. The sin rests on the fact
that sometimes the creditor desires more than he has given. Therefore, he
contends some gain is owed him beyond that which he loaned, but any gain
which exceeds the amount he gave is illicit and usurious." Pope Benedict
XIV 1745 A.D.

"One cannot condone the sin of usury by arguing that the gain is not great
or excessive, but rather moderate or small; neither can it be condoned by
arguing that the borrowed money is not left idle but is spent usefully,
either to increase one's wealth, to buy real estate or to finance some
business transactions. The law governing loans consists necessarily in the
equality of what is borrowed and what is returned. They have to be equal.
Once that equality is established, and agreed upon, then if the lender
demands more than an equal return, that is a violation of the terms of the
loan. Therefore, if one receives interest, he must make restitution
according to the laws of justice; its function in human contracts is to
assure equality for each person. This law is to be observed in a holy way
and in a way that God wants us to follow His laws. If observed exactly,
reparation must be made." Pope Benedict XIV 1745 A.D.
=================000000000000000000000000000000000=================

Looks like selfishness and Christianity are in conflict. Can it be that Christians who profit from usery are hypocrites? Or have times changed that much?

So when I accept interest on the money in my savings account, I am stealing? I don't think the Christian theologians quoted above took inflation into account. You need to get interest just to stand still.

Stealing is removing property from someone without consent!
How can the application of interest be stealing when the borrower knows and accepts that interest will be chargeable?
There is such a thing as an interest free loan for those who don't want (or can't afford) to pay interest!

There's no free lunch (to quote Milton Friedman). That "interest free" loan profits the lender in other ways, such as getting you to buy the car or whatever.

You're right Rick, 'free' doesn't mean free anymore!

I was referring to a 'real' without interest loan which my parents offered in helping me to purchase my first house.

One just cannot believe advertisements or politicians now.
They have cooked their future!

It's good to have real help sometimes.

"So when i accept interest on the money in my savings account, i am stealing?" asks rick.

No. that is not what i am saying. i am talking about the system as a whole, not about indiviiduals--the ones who are caught in the system.

"I don't think the christian theologians quoted above took inflation into account. you need to get interest just to stand still." rick.

We need to understand that the basic cause of the crushing kind of systemic inflation is interest charges? and don't tell me that interest does not add to the cost living. look at what happens to big ticket items like real estate costs, transportation costs, health care costs, insurance costs, and the like. naturally, this drives up the demand for wages. those who are not capable of competing get left behind, and the gap between the rich and the poor widens.

MAKING MONEY ON MONEY by way of earned dividends
read matthew 25:14-30--the parable of the talents. it is about earning money using the dividend system. keep in mind that jesus was a practicing jew and the jews abhored interest. his remark about putting money in the bank and earning interest was, obviously, pure sarcasm.

LOOK WHAT IS HAPPENING in the modern financial markets
Currently, more and more financial advisers are advocating investors put their money in income trust funds--funds which pay regular dividends, on the money one puts into them. since the fall of enron, west com, bre-x and the like, we are finally beginning to realize that much of the stock market is just one big casino--a legalized pyrimid scheme--creating very little of real value. income trusts are designed to create value. Warren Buffett has been advocating this kind of investment for decades.

http://www.odemagazine.com/article.php?aID=4147
=====================================
Jurriaan Kamp writes:


Also, please check out what happened on the island of Guernsey in 1816:
http://www.monetary-reform.on.ca/archives/6d.shtml