http://www.thegodmovie.com/canada/?gclid=C...CFQEeDQod20p3Vw

http://www.thegodmovie.com/canada/trailer.php

Religion is ethically indefensible. Who is more praiseworthy, one who acts well in order to receive a reward from a god or one who acts well because he wants to help others?

I question the motive or reason of anyone who acts well because he wants to help others. Experience has shown that they are either loonies or misguided, have ulterior motives or are blatantly self-righteous. Thus, I have concluded that acting well can be beneficial to others, but the actual intent or meaning should be interpreted cautiously.

I wonder...If the teachings of Jesus were spoken by an atheist would they hold a meaning to be understood and followed?

"Verily I say unto you. He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth and the sheep hear his voice and he calleth his own sheep by name and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them and the sheep follow him for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow but will flee from him for they know not the voice of strangers."

This quote is older but basically the same as what HH just said above. But of course, I'd be screaming out of the cave if HH resurrects.

Even when Jesus spoke directly to an audience, not many understood what he had to say.

I'm not dead yet! But if I was, I'd have as much chance of resurrecting as Jesus did!

Including his own Apostles. He often had to give the meanings of his parables to them as they themselves didn't understand. Which is kinda bias now that I think on it...for when he said that to those that don't see, perceive or understand let them deal with the parable least they convert and be forgiven. That the apostles didn't understand, how were they better than the others that didn't ? If he was to save us from our sins how is it that he also forbade understanding to those that sinned ?

They (his disciples) were more or less ready to make an evolutionary step in their consciousness, and it was not that they were better, they were part of his message. Humans living the teaching, experiencing and teaching the reality of conscious expansion. He never forbade anyone understanding. It is reality that some are not ready yet to experience something if their plate is already full with something else. Growth in consciousness is part and parcel to learning a few steps that prepare one for something other than superstition, and fear. A child has to learn the language before it can attend school... sort of thing. Humanity has in 2000 years taken the seed that was planted and some have grown with it and others are still beating it back down into the earth preparing themselves for the day when they can understand the nature of themselves, so the seed can sprout within their understanding and physical capability.

I've been waiting here for years to be struck down. Why not now? Why have to wait until I'm dead for the punishment? Beats me? No god, no afterlife, no fairy tales, nothing.

I am so pleased to be a temporary lifeform; it has been interesting and I hope might be for a few years more; then goodbye. BTW, I have great pleasure in discussing your views, and value your temporary lives.

Obviously because of this:
The desire to enjoy a few more years of waiting keeps you going.
You don't have to wait. Everywhere you don't find perfection in and about your life and humanity is given to you now. Then when you die you get to start all over again without the memory of having done it before.

Nothing changes if you are complacent with what you have, and don't do anything different. The pleasure of your current state of mind continues as a result of your choice. Temporary yes. You get a few years before your death, to continue in the world you created through that choice.

What nice replies. I like you.

[quote name='Hey Hey' date='Apr 09, 2009, 01:06 PM' post='100299']

[/quote]I've been waiting here for years to be struck down. Why not now? Why have to wait until I'm dead for the punishment? Beats me? No god, no afterlife, no fairy tales, nothing.

I am so pleased to be a temporary lifeform; it has been interesting and I hope might be for a few years more; then goodbye. BTW, I have great pleasure in discussing your views, and value your temporary lives.
[/quote]



You do realize I was just playing with my ending response to you hey hey, right ?? However your response was interesting... Yes, you do have just as much of a chance of resurrecting as Jesus. In this life, perhaps no, but eventually. I know...you don't give these beliefs much to consider. But like anything else, when someone becomes aware of a knowledge, that knowledge becomes a fact and a reality. Before the discovery of microbiology man didn't give much thought that such small things could have any impact on man. As we now know, it means everything that can impact man.

Punishment? Now that's a belief not worth any consideration. Even for criminals. Those that fall to the darker side of life receive that effect. Like throwing a ball against a wall, the harder you throw it, the harder it will come back at the pitcher. Repentance is the catchers mitt. We must catch what we throw out and in order to create a better throw the next time we learn how to soften the blow of receiving. And karma...I view that like a good massage or physical work out. We must undo the knots and dysfunction we created in ourselves, to be whole again and without pain to succeed more in life and living.

Your value as a man and a spirit are immeasurable, always will be...


"of mice and men" are going well, almost half way through now...I'll give a thought when I'm through.

I can understand that the disciples may be ready for the next step but Christ didn't mix his words. Unless you know a translational difference in what was said the statement "least they convert and be forgiven" does not say the principal that you propose above. Although I can agree with this principal, it doesn't seem to be an answer to this question.

What do you know of Jesus Teaching as it relates to Eastern Scripture regarding Karma, reincarnation and ego?
Where exactly did you pull the phrase from? Sometimes it's easier to put it into context when it is seen in an entire passage.

The word convert and forgive can relate to Sin and removal of Sin. Sin being incorrect thinking or blinded awareness to reality. If someone is moving in the opposite direction of expanded awareness, toward contraction, fear and delusion, one would have to make a change to convert the thought process that is contracting to one that is expansive.
In the RG Veda the word sacrifice is used, where sacrifice means to give up something that doesn't work for something that does. One easily sacrifices delusion for Truth in order to see clearly.

To be forgiven can mean a couple of things, such as a personal approach to ones awareness of reality. If it is judged as negative one can see it in a different light and forgive or repent (literally to change ones mind) about what is seen and experienced. When it comes to Karmic repercussions it is possible to burn the bridge to Karma that hasn't yet manifest by stepping outside of the Hamster wheel that produces it through the conversion of wrongful thinking to right thinking, or to expand the intellect from ignorance to Self realization.

In relation to the eastern philosophy, Jesus agreed (with John aka Elisha) that one needs to repent (sacrifice and face personal sin in action and thought) and then to wash away the dirt that scars the soul (karma) by living the truth of "sin no more" These two in acceptance is the path to Heaven. Reincarnation is the process of these two until the soul is purified from ego drives and lower ambitions.
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Which brings me to a side note: Don't agree with your statement to HH that we get to forget from one life to the next, we most certainly don't. Perhaps for a short time in youth, but eventually all of our past is brought forth to memory - agreeably or not. I think it's possible to bury one's past memories through adhering to this physical life and conditioning beliefs, but sooner or later, one life or another, it's revealed. In Glory and Sin.
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Where did I get the phrase from: Parable of the Soils - Mark 4: 1-25; Matt. 13: 1-23 ; Luke 8: 4-15 - King James Bible

To burn the bridge of Karmic repercussions. Really? How? There are no nukes in karmic passage. Like the tarnished pot, it takes effort to rub off and make the pot gleam again, least it be spoiled by an abrasive chemical. Right thinking, right thought, right action is the tarnishing cloth from ignorance to self wisdom, agreed, but to just step aside like a hamster wheel isn't possible from my experience thus far.
Let take a few persona's from the past. Po Pot, Hitler, Herod, The pharisees, Salome, Sadam, Pharo and the like. You think they can just bump off their walk of undoing the soil in heart and just be a perfect soul? Even so, wouldn't their service to mankind be also paramount for their progress? Jesus being who he was, gave of the greatest service for the effort of the soul of man - who are they to do any less? or have it easier?

The majority of incarnates don't bring their memory with them of past lives. The very few that do remember bits and pieces only do because it serves them to use what they know to expand beyond the limitations that created the Karma in the first place.

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Read within the context of both passages you have noted, Jesus pretty much says to those that have the ability to grasp reality at an advanced intellectual level, the illusions of ego do not blind them to the truth. Those that see clearly avoid the repercussions of choice made from the illusions of separation from God and the fear of ignorance.

The meaning of the word repent, (to change ones mind or to alter the perception of delusion to clarity) refers to the expansion of limited states of consciousness such as sleeping, dreaming and waking into something greater. Patanjali's Yoga Sutras detail three more states of consciousness different both subjectively and objectively to the Knower in the process of knowing the known. These states of consciousness are awareness of an unchanging absolute and an established perpetual recognition of it. Exalted consciousness, the ability to see the Celestials, also experienced as heightened intuition, or the ability to feel and hear the world around you at subtle levels. And the 7th state of consciousness Unity or perpetual unified awareness of the unchanging absolute in every thought feeling and action, also known as "Heaven on Earth" where one lives 100% in the manifest and 100% in the un-manifest. It is here where Sin is washed away and Karma is ascended.

If you separate God from everything and give those qualities of judgment to something that is less than God then you see reality in personna and belief.
In Eastern scripture there is a saying: "All is but the gunas playing upon the gunas" (nature playing upon nature). In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna (God) instructs Arjuna (the evolving soul) to "Be without the gunas" (to ascend the relative for the absolute). By doing so he will remove himself from duality and become aware of the One consciousness that is in all. By doing so one begins to see something different of reality.
Where one individual interacts with another is like the metabolizing of food within the nervous system. One action cannot be completed without the other. The contrast of choice cannot be experienced or realized without the duality of opposites.

There is a myth regarding the creation of ignorance and illusion within humanity. When man first was created in the image of a perfect God, man realized the only reality was perfect union with everything and so sat in meditation only to be reabsorbed into the one. God then took it upon himself to create delusion so that Man would begin to traverse a different path toward self realization.

We live in a multidimensional manifest world which is part and parcel to the un-manifest One absolute, which is intelligence and without conditions. It is potential and the manifest is experience of potential. The infinite un-manifest contains so to speak all that ever was, is or will be. In one sense it never really leaves its status as the One. However consciousness as it moves thru potential becomes aware of what it is as that potential when it thinks to witness itself or play with itself. As separate individuals we see ourselves differently from it and each other. As we remove individuality from awareness we see ourselves as one.
Pol Pot, Hitler etc. etc. fingers to the same hand all moving in accord to universal mind. If our finger wanders into our nose and becomes immersed in the excrement of nasal waste do we judge the finger or was there some greater purpose in sending it digging for snot and boogers? If the experience is an itch and it needed scratching then one can look at it as a necessity.

The Bhagavad Gita is a story of humanity split between the ego's predilection toward the attachments to sensual pleasures, greed, vanity, sloth, violence and ignorance, and the Hearts subtle desire to return to its source. Humanity squares off, split down the middle representing the heart which listens to the voice of spirit and the ego attached to the outer reality of personality and individual belief. God/Krishna guides Arjuna (the evolving soul) toward the awareness of Truth absolute, so to avoid the complications of being self absorbed in the illusions of duality. Krishna explains that each individual is like an actor upon a stage performing what it must perform to create the bigger picture of experience in direction of thought. Intention leads to experience and what you focus on in that intention creates a ripple in time and space. When the play is over the actors change their clothes and go home (so to speak).
In one sense it never really happens and in another sense it always happens and forever will happen and will never not happen.
The un-manifest and the manifest are always working together like the infinity symbol. One side or loop represents the un-manifest, while the other side or loop represents the manifest. Consciousness moves in and out of each traveling along the loop where it meets the other at the Bhindu point or the null point where one is neither one or the other but yet both. When one reaches a steady awareness of this all Karma is dissolved and one begins to create anew Ad infinitum.

Karma is not a punishment. It is an energetic. If you alter the force that continues its movement in a certain direction, it stops rolling like a snowball picking up more snow and becomes something different.

Joesus,

Do you believe that Jesus had full memory of his past lives?

Do you believe Jesus was the Christ incarnate or was he overshadowed by the Christ?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ resurrected or survived the crucifixion?

Have you read the Celestine Prophesy? Do you agree with it?

Have you read the Course in Miracles? Do you agree with it?

Have you read the books of DK by Alice Bailey? Do you agree with it?

Thanks for a great post it was interesting.
But, I did not say or ever believed that karma was punishment, I said it was a process. Just wanted to make sure I corrected that.

Catseye, you say, "I did not say or ever believed that karma was punishment, I said it was a process. Just wanted to make sure I corrected that."

You mention "process". Check out Process Theology:
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1489
==========================================
THE NEW TESTAMENT AND KARMA
===============================
Galatians 6:1-10 (Contemporary English Version)

Galatians 6
Help Each Other
1 My friends, you are spiritual. So if someone is trapped in sin, you should gently lead that person back to the right path. But watch out, and don't be tempted yourself. 2 You obey the law of Christ when you offer each other a helping hand.

3 If you think you are better than others, when you really aren't, you are wrong. 4 Do your own work well, and then you will have something to be proud of. But don't compare yourself with others. 5We each must carry our own load.

6 Share every good thing you have with anyone who teaches you what God has said.

7 You cannot fool God, so don't make a fool of yourself! You will harvest what you plant. 8 If you follow your selfish desires, you will harvest destruction, but if you follow the Spirit, you will harvest eternal life. 9 Don't get tired of helping others. You will be rewarded when the time is right, if you don't give up. 10 We should help people whenever we can, especially if they are followers of the Lord.

====================================================
GALATIANS 5
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
=====================================================
ABOUT THE "JESUS" OF HISTORY
=============================
If the Jesus of the Bible--a collection of documents, over 3000 years, which were never registered with any library--including the Jesus in the writings of Paul (BTW, the Christianity we know is really Paulianity) really was the Messiah--the Greek is Christos, Christ, anointed One--as prophesied by the Jewish prophets, he would physically with us to-day and be the king of the world and located in Jerusalem. He would be God on earth.The Old Testament, in the voice of God, says this over and over again. The NT repeats the message.

Orthodox Jews still believe this. Certain Christians, not all, believe the same thing, but with a twist: The Messiah was here, was killed, rose from the dead, went to heaven, and now he is getting ready to return, soon.

It is obvious that the Jesus of the Gospels, and of Paul's writings, made no attempt to mark a place in history. For that matter, neither did Paul himself. Jesus never wrote a book and Paul did not leave a signed copy of what he wrote. The same is true for all the documents that make up the Bible. If this did not matter to them--or to the God of which they wrote--why should it matter to us?

BTW, there were probably scores of people, maybe even hundreds of people, over 2000 years ago, by the name of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John, etc.

WHAT MATTERS TO ME IS NOT THE WHO'S WHO SAID IT, BUT THE TEACHINGS AND THE EXAMPLES
DESCRIBED IN THE WRITINGS.

Many of them no doubt lived exemplary--that is christ-like lives--lives anointed by the spirit of good, or GOD. Whoever they were they helped create the teachings we call the gospels. IMO, the teachings are what is paramount.

IMO, regardless of what we call ourselves: Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, agnostics, atheists, secular humanists, whatever, the teachings of the New Testament make it clear that we will reap what we so, not just what we say we believe. Orthodoxy without orthopraxy is hypocrisy.

Past and future coexist. Incarnations are not necessarily linear. he was omniscient in his union with omnipresent consciousness.

The reference to Christ as the Son of God, is that which is imbued in all of creation as God's image, which is wielded in activity by humans who are awake. Jesus embodied Unified consciousness which includes what is called the miracle power and immortality. He lived, experienced, thought and felt, Christ Consciousness.

He fully remembered his relationship with John the baptist as his teacher Elisha in another life. He, in a sense was not dead before incarnating as a baby through his birth in Bethlehem. Both he Elisha and his teacher Elijah were healing the sick and raising the dead in that incarnation and so the demonstration of ascension was symbolic of his message to humanity that the Christ lives within all who would awaken to it.

I've read "A course in Miracles". I know it to be correct and true.
I didn't say you believed it was a punishment, but you seemed surprised when I said Karma could be circumvented and went on to exemplify Hitler, Pol Pot and some others for what it sounded like a need to justify punishment for their actions.
What most don't realize or think about, is that all of those directly affected by their actions were karmicly incarnated within that time and space due to previous action.
The common feeling is that they were victimized by those Historically idolized demons. There are always different ways to look at things.

It's 3 in the morning to me, so I'm just going to make a few comments.

First off.. Hello Lindsay, nice to meet you.

Learning from Joesus is enjoyable and enlightening. Our conversation grew from my questions in regard to understanding one parable to the process of karma and reincarnation. I don't agree with his view of reincarnation due to my own experiences, but as they say, to each his/er own. My last post to him is just thoughts on what he thinks on various books and his views of Jesus in relation to the life he lived as the christ.

Thanks for the link I reviewed it quickly but will take more time on it later.

you put a few comments in bold print in the quotes of Galatians, I think it wise to first ask why and what for, before I respond to it.

I'm not a devout christian bible thumper, but read the bible as well as many other books. And respect the wisdom therein. I grew up in metaphysical philosophy, Rosicrucian, and with many subjects in learning expanding consciousness. I continue to learn from others (enjoyably) as well as some of the newer books out today.

ok, goodnight.

""He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding; but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly" -Proverbs14:29

"He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding; but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly" -Proverbs14:29

Thanks for your proverb, catseye.

I love it!

My intention is: to live by and act on it. Could we invite others to do the same? If they so choose.

I'll accept that invite, and also don't see why anybody wouldnt

invitation accepted and extended !


Phi, I think I just lost 15 minutes staring at your avatar...lol -luv it!

Feel free to stare at my avatar anytime, you too lindsay

[quote name='Joesus' date='Apr 10, 2009, 10:52 PM' post='100335']

The reference to Christ as the Son of God, is that which is imbued in all of creation as God's image, which is wielded in activity by humans who are awake. Jesus embodied Unified consciousness which includes what is called the miracle power and immortality. He lived, experienced, thought and felt, Christ Consciousness.


I have read in other forums that some believe Christ is the first Adam, who evolved to the Consciousness of God - I don't have a take on it or enough info on what they were discussing. I do think that Adam was the first man to be aware of a higher life as that of God but I don't think he was the "first" man in creation. Something rang true to me on him being the Christ that guided Jesus though.

To be Christ-like would seem to be both, of being awake to the union of soul and God and in unison with those that evolved ahead of us.

we lose all identity upon this conscious evolution? what is the difference between a person who is awake and the formerly stated?


Joesus:
He fully remembered his relationship with John the baptist as his teacher Elisha in another life. He, in a sense was not dead before incarnating as a baby through his birth in Bethlehem. Both he Elisha and his teacher Elijah were healing the sick and raising the dead in that incarnation and so the demonstration of ascension was symbolic of his message to humanity that the Christ lives within all who would awaken to it.


I have a question on another parable, When Jesus spoke of John upon his death in Matt 11:11
he states that "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he" was he speaking of John? was this because John doubted? the parable is titled "rejection of John the Baptist" I found it disturbing as he praised him in one sentence than said this. If John had lived would he have turned on Jesus as he was more "old testement" and resistant to the new teaching?


Joesus:
I didn't say you believed it was a punishment, but you seemed surprised when I said Karma could be circumvented and went on to exemplify Hitler, Pol Pot and some others for what it sounded like a need to justify punishment for their actions.
What most don't realize or think about, is that all of those directly affected by their actions were karmicly incarnated within that time and space due to previous action.
The common feeling is that they were victimized by those Historically idolized demons. There are always different ways to look at things.


ok, thanks. but doesn't your last sentence cancel out the first? Not that it was punishment, but of an undoing of what was before? Although it's difficult to see why those tortured by these men had to experience this, it would only make sense if they themselves had to understand or clear the madness in themselves, that they created in another life. but still, (in many philosophies) why does pain by the body have a meaning to spiritual cleansing?

Many have good intentions, yet lack the awareness to understand what may be necessary to live within greatness that is sometimes seen as something opposite.
Jesus said he didn't come to make people feel better but to wield a sword that would cut the ties between father and son, mother and daughter. This didn't make him a bad person, in fact his intentions weren't even his own.



There are myths to the effect that Adam was one of the first Christed humans to walk the planet. The Urantia book has a lot to say on that subject.
Another analogy is that Adam and Eve represent the dual nature of the brain which is both masculine and feminine. The central nervous system being the tree of life also is capable of adapting to both inner and outer movement of awareness. When the feminine Eve half of the brain moves outward into creation without the balance of the masculine half it can be swept up in the experiences of nature becoming emotionally attached to experience. The masculine half without the intuitive nature of the feminine can be domineering, trying to control and own everything even if it means destroying it to do so. The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is symbolic of the mind turning outward from its neutral nature having a balance of both feminine and masculine qualities like the hermaphrodite and becoming separated and unbalanced as both masculine and feminine become absorbed in sensory activity of the world. Leaving the tree of immortality for the tree of knowledge of good and evil or duality man symbolically descends from a god like status to that of mortal experiencing a life that has a beginning and an end.


And being aware that all is one. The symbolism of linear progression is represented by the Sutra Atman or the thread of souls.

Conscious awareness of the One.



Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Jesus is saying the least in the kingdom of heaven is not greater than John the Baptist, or he's saying there is no greater or lesser. Meaning John the Baptist was not suffering any delusions of the waking state, and did not die to rise to heaven. He already lived heaven on earth in his earthly body. ( And was hinting toward the fact that Elisha was fully realized prior to the incarnation as John.)
Earlier in the passage of Matthew 11
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

Jesus hints at the real prize: Christ Consciousness and answers the question John poses to his disciples. John asked his disciples is this the man that embodies the Christ or shall we look for another.
Many believe John had given up his faith and lost hope while being imprisoned by Herod only to be beheaded.
It isn't valid nor is the idea that Jesus could have lost his faith after being nailed to the cross before he breathed his last breath. But then those with the eyes to see and the ears to hear...

It is the belief that the sensory world is real, more real than the spirit within, that has created the contrast. That will continue to exist as the dual nature of continuance or Samsara, the birth and rebirth that is created in the momentum of karma when one propels consciousness thru time and space with beginnings and endings.
There are many ways to perceive the nature of karma and some believe it carries ramifications of good and evil but those concepts are attached to idealism. If one believes there to be opposing forces one will live their lives with the experience of both until they learn to discern the nature of creation.

There is a story of a bunch of monks living in a monastery battling rakshasas (demons). The more they fight or the harder they fight the more the rakshasas increase in numbers and the more they increase their intensity of attack. Finally the monks stop and really look at what is being created. In an instant they turn their awareness to God and dump all their faith into the notion that all is God and that there can be nothing other than God. As quick as they do this the rakshasas vanish and are replaced with harmless and loving celestials.

The allegory represents the battle between spirit and ego. The ego fears for the removal of self identity. Beliefs, opinions, stories of relevance and measure, these are the treasures of the ego. Spirit has no measure and is without boundaries. Spirit does not live for treasure for it is beyond the notion of being without something.

If Adam and Eve were to reunite in the central nervous system or the Tree of life, energy will rise through the Ida and travel down the Pingala to rise again in the Sushumna or spinal column in what is called Kundalini to complete an energetic that lights up the central nervous system producing what is called ascension and awakening consciousness. It is represented in the symbolism of the Caduceus. The two snakes are the Ida and Pingala, the central staff is the Sushumna or central spinal column. The snakes intertwine in and out of the chakras and the eagle wings fully open to represent the opening of the thousand petals of the 7th chakra or full human consciousness and enlightenment.

The teachings of Jesus are the teachings of enlightenment passed on from one master to the next. Jesus was not the first Christed being to walk the earth, nor the first teach enlightenment. There have been many. The bible even mentions a priest by the name of Melchizedek who came to earth 2000 years before Jesus and prophesied the coming of Jesus. The story hints that he, (Melchizedek) wasn't born of a woman but instead manifested fully as an adult and left after performing his ministry the same way he came.

Joe, eeee, how to say that. Hmmm, well, you know Joe that there are rumors that preservation of the secret of Enigma ../.. as a time traveling gateway for DMT creatures and entities is an important secret of the Grand Matrix. Should I remind you about those rumors again Joe?
Certainly there is no publicly available scientific ground for that, but anyway...

You could, but I wouldn't put the reminders within the same cosmic context that you do.

Why to discard ourselves over trifles Joe, so trying to fit ourselves into worldly context, let us speak bluntly between ourselves. Can we? We know that we know what we know.

Common Joe. You know who am I. So let us talk frankly. Why to hide simple things between ourselves. The secret about existence of the secret should be kept in secret, is not it?

I know who you are, and consequently there is nothing hidden between two ideals or personalities. No thing is a secret. If one is unable to recognize truth, secrets may seem to be hidden knowledge kept from one by limitation of belief.
Those things that some believe need to be protected, are not without their own qualities that prevent limitation from overcoming, or taking value from them.

Some are just addicted to drama, but I don't pay too much attention to drama.

Common Joe, I wonder why you are resisting to my good will. It is just a good business, balance, order, harmony. Do not fog things behind the rhetoric.

Btw, there are always hidden things in-between my personalities, I constantly find something new in myself.

Secret is a secret Joe when gentlemen do come to agreement to keep something in secret. It is called celestial politics.

What is the aim Joe? People do not need that truth, just numbers can understand the true essence of your words, so why to tell publicly? What is the reason Joe, what is the utility of telling that?

Well, as I see you are meditating, talk to you later Joe.

There is no resistance, only a different point of reference.
When you narrow your personalities to a manageable few, I would imagine there would be less of a fog accompanying the rhetoric.

It's not my fault..There is always a higher aspect of consciousness dealing the cards. I tend to surrender to that rather than conflicting multiple personalities.

Joesus:
There are myths to the effect that Adam was one of the first Christed humans to walk the planet. The Urantia book has a lot to say on that subject.


I have read the Urantia book but breezed through most of it. I tend to lean toward the same side as many others in not believing it as a true source. It was easy to speculate that anyone with a lot of education and creativity could have written that along with the fact that there is nothing to back up the history of man it gives. I would probably give more credit to a man writing a story on immortality more than this.


Joesus:
The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is symbolic of the mind turning outward from its neutral nature having a balance of both feminine and masculine qualities like the hermaphrodite and becoming separated and unbalanced as both masculine and feminine become absorbed in sensory activity of the world. Leaving the tree of immortality for the tree of knowledge of good and evil or duality man symbolically descends from a god like status to that of mortal experiencing a life that has a beginning and an end.


What does this say about angels? If they are on one hand the same (hermaphrodite) how can they also say
"now they will understand as we do, to know good from evil" ?
Are you also in the belief that we will become or revert back to this state?
Is this the understanding of twin flames? or souls?


Joesus:
And being aware that all is one. The symbolism of linear progression is represented by the Sutra Atman or the thread of souls.


Does this thread of souls have a continence? Do all souls that live and incarnate together always stay together?
Do you ( as others that I have listen to) believe that there is a circle of souls, always bound and traveling with each other, life to life -planet to planet.



Joesus:
It is the belief that the sensory world is real, more real than the spirit within, that has created the contrast. That will continue to exist as the dual nature of continuance or Samsara, the birth and rebirth that is created in the momentum of karma when one propels consciousness thru time and space with beginnings and endings.
There are many ways to perceive the nature of karma and some believe it carries ramifications of good and evil but those concepts are attached to idealism. If one believes there to be opposing forces one will live their lives with the experience of both until they learn to discern the nature of creation.

Nice statement!

Joesus:
If Adam and Eve were to reunite in the central nervous system or the Tree of life, energy will rise through the Ida and travel down the Pingala to rise again in the Sushumna or spinal column in what is called Kundalini to complete an energetic that lights up the central nervous system producing what is called ascension and awakening consciousness. It is represented in the symbolism of the Caduceus. The two snakes are the Ida and Pingala, the central staff is the Sushumna or central spinal column. The snakes intertwine in and out of the chakras and the eagle wings fully open to represent the opening of the thousand petals of the 7th chakra or full human consciousness and enlightenment.


When I have meditated or doing yoga I have felt this energy from my lower part to the top of my head, sometimes it is so strong that I get dizzy. That's not healthy - is it? It goes away quickly but I worry that I may not be ready so I now back off sometimes when I feel it (get up walk around - change what I'm doing). Should I just go with it or wait? It is wonderful and I do know that my thinking (attitude?) is different since it began.
My brother tried a class on kundalini and he said he felt a burning pain, I told him to stop as that didn't sound right. he is older than me by 14 years and far more educated than me, so it was confusing that I would feel one way but he another.


Joesus:
The teachings of Jesus are the teachings of enlightenment passed on from one master to the next. Jesus was not the first Christed being to walk the earth, nor the first teach enlightenment. There have been many. The bible even mentions a priest by the name of Melchizedek who came to earth 2000 years before Jesus and prophesied the coming of Jesus. The story hints that he, (Melchizedek) wasn't born of a woman but instead manifested fully as an adult and left after performing his ministry the same way he came.


I searched the bible and can't find it - help me out...where?

Oh..perhaps you can answer a question that we have thrown around as a family. In the beginning The bible starts out as "God" but on the second page after all had been created and "the creation of man" begins it then states "the Lord God". Why?

...thanks for your patience and hearing out my Q's

Hmmm, good.



You know Joe, even during the Seminars of the Invisible College there should be few speakers otherwise the fog of noise dumps down the flavor of the rose of wisdom. And even during the cozy meetings of focus groups I prefer the group to tackle single certain topic, at least few of them.



Do not surrender, just negotiate. The 'higher aspects' must not forget that the secret that there is a secret should be kept in secret, at least revealed to restricted number of interesting guys and girls.

When question is asked Joe, try to edit the answer prior to posting, discard some ideas, if it is hard to discard just make some short remarks on paper for not keeping that within oneself. It is a practical advice of mine.

Btw Joe, did you like one of the Rings of Power I got as a present from Armenia, it is in the AIG related topic in Politics section? Hilarious is not it? A nice example of how to rule so called 'superpower', I should say. I think you are one of the few who can perceive the magnitude of the joke of some Great Unknowns, I guess.

There are truths within the Urantia book. The fault lay in the fact that it was inconsistently channeled thru more than one person, and where there were gaps, the authors surmised the filler.


Humans are the example to freedom from exalted consciousness in the angelic realms. The absorption into exalted consciousness is a great distraction. A human can evolve in a single lifetime where as those who are so absorbed by the experience of God are often mesmerized for what is equal to many human lifetimes of experience in duality.


Revert back to what state? Angelic realms?
Twin souls and twin flames can be two different things. A soul can split and reunite without spending lifetimes together. Twin flames are often two souls who have what is seen as a history, but no soul is bound to another any more than all souls, which are reflections of the One.


Not necessarily.



As others you have listened to? I guess you would have to determine if I believe what others believe. Beliefs change. I tend to let go of belief and allow for knowledge to come from the source it comes. Sometimes the outward appearance of it changes but basically the source is the same One.
But to answer your question souls are not bound together but are reflections of each other or of the One consciousness. Sometimes it appears that there are familiars, but it is still the One consciousness regardless of whether the experience creates a story of multiple apparitions of familiarity.
One has to look at time and space differently to realize the One Consciousness. Instead of seeing distance in between time and worlds one must see them as NOW.


Forcing Kundalini is a waste of time. It can be like trying to run high voltage through a wire the thickness of a hair. There are things people do to force experiences and experiences are secondary to spiritual and physical evolution. One should look for a consistency of expanded awareness in all experiences rather than to dramatize the attachment to instant gratification and some idealized fascination with what enlightenment should look like.
I don't know what kind of Yoga or asanas you do, or what kind of meditation you do, so it would be difficult to comment on your experience without knowing.



King James Version Hebrews 7
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually........


Because the manifestation of God has its origin in God the absolute which is the un-manifest. It is given presidence with the title of Lord or Father.

There is ever only one voice which speaks truth. If the mind is too busy with relative idealisms and beliefs, it ends up hearing the many voices of belief and opinion. Therefore the fault is not in the speaker, which never tires and always gives, but the listener who hasn't the ability to hear the voice of truth.


Negotiation is less effective than true surrender which is to unite with the One true voice. When there are two voices in negotiation there are always differences in opinion.

I try not to think so much in answering questions filled with so much thought. The questioner who thinks so much is usually sufficiently confused, and so to try and fit an answer to the many thoughts, in an attempt to hit a bulls-eye, is often a waste of time and energy.

I guess.

I am talking about careful research and ontology shaping and not voices, possibly you misunderstood me. We really talk from different reference points. Btw, if to talk about the voices or the voice then I think that a human cannot be sure who really talks with him: a masturbating guy reading mantra and tripping under DMT somewhere in deep shit place in Calcutta or the source of eternal light. So I think humans should have scientific criteria of truth as well. Common sense tells us that. Sorry for vulgar comparison but let us speak candidly.



When one surrenders he/she looses his identity, and actually it is the same as loosing somehow the Freedom of Will. Differences in opinions is a sign of Democracy, absence of alternative and full surrender is a sign of Dictatorship. The one who is wiser should not incline the other to surrender, the one who is wiser should look for friendship. Do you feel difference Joe?



Do not forget that each man should dwell harmoniously and happily at his level of knowledge and world perception. When you venture to move someone to another level you should be very careful as during the movement the person looses his happiness and harmony, passes through doubts and fear till reaches to the new level of harmony so to the happiness. If you initiate the move, then you take great responsibility, you cannot live a person on a half of a way, or tell him 'this is the door, go'. So that is why edit what you write and if you do not aware about each level of harmony, then you cannot move other people up safely, so in that case you should keep silence and start to look for the master who can inform you about the levels of harmony. I think you should understand me Joe.



Good.

[quote name='Joesus' date='Apr 12, 2009, 09:50 PM' post='100398']
[
Revert back to what state? Angelic realms?


Hermaphrodites

Joesus:
As others you have listened to? I guess you would have to determine if I believe what others believe. Beliefs change. I tend to let go of belief and allow for knowledge to come from the source it comes. Sometimes the outward appearance of it changes but basically the source is the same One.


I guess I should have said, do you think- understand, propose as a knowledge- of the same as what I have listen to from others that have spoken on similar subjects.



Forcing Kundalini is a waste of time. It can be like trying to run high voltage through a wire the thickness of a hair. There are things people do to force experiences and experiences are secondary to spiritual and physical evolution. One should look for a consistency of expanded awareness in all experiences rather than to dramatize the attachment to instant gratification and some idealized fascination with what enlightenment should look like.
I don't know what kind of Yoga or asanas you do, or what kind of meditation you do, so it would be difficult to comment on your experience without knowing.


I never forced this (if it is kundalini) it just happens. My brother yes - and I never agreed that classes on it were correct.
How can I explain this...I do various poses that I am capable of. When I do them I clear my mind and surround my self in the emptiness around me...or no..I can't explain it, I just clear my mind and allow the breath to be my feeling and thought. I have only my intuition to guide me.
I don't hear voices...or anything of a grand nature but I have seen things that don't make any sense. Or - I will see people I know and don't know doing something (daily life)
Mediation - Same thing - I guide myself. I don't think all the different meditations makes a difference. Just clear my thoughts and feelings and concentrate on being still. Then swoosh...it is not a gratification but it is a good feeling. Sometimes I feel a presence but it is not unpleasant or dark. I am not as successful with this as I am yoga...I fall asleep.
I certainly don't claim to be ascended or enlighten...
I always sensed though that the presence gets annoyed with me for falling asleep.

Its not necessarily a reverting back to. The term Hermaphrodite is used because it represents gender neutrality. God is both un-manifest and manifest. The symbolism of the cross represents the male vertical absolute, and the horizontal broad feminine manifest, expanding outward at the bindhu point in both directions. Both are part and parcel to each other and can never be separated. The unification of stillness and movement is realized when the mind ascends the thought and experience of duality as separate from God.

There is only One presence, it doesn't get annoyed nor does it favor any particular experience, it has no attachments. It is you that you sense, that gets disappointed or puts pressure on you to have a particular type of experience. This pressure if not recognized is enough to create tension or a headache if you don't let it go.

There are a couple of things that can cause discomfort in meditation. Stress releasing from the mind and body translates thru the nervous system. When the mind goes inward to touch the still absolute, the body settles into deep rest. The body has a natural function to metabolize and refresh itself. It does this when we sleep. In deep effective meditation the body relaxes much more quickly then it does through normal sleep patterns and so begins the process of healing or clearing itself of stress. Stress accumulates itself through impacting thoughts to the nervous system and they are both psychological and material. Emotions and feelings are jarring to the nervous system, a loud noise an intense feeling. Material stresses are in the chemicals that are in our food and water and the air we breathe. The cells in our body when the body is at rest have the ability to move these stresses out and to normalize.
Since the mind and body work together, when the mind stills itself and the body achieves rest, it is normal for the mind to become active again when the body becomes active in healing itself. We can experience the stress releasing as thoughts or memories, even experience emotions and sense oriented thoughts such as taste things that we have tasted at some time prior to the meditation and it could be something that was tasted years before.
Dreams are often influenced by stress releasing when we sleep at night. The stress release can mix itself with intuitive thoughts, but if the body is continually bombarded with material and psychological stresses the intuitive thought process is continually mired with the stress the body absorbs.

Falling asleep is normal for some who have stress in their body. Any natural meditation can induce this type of reaction. It usually means the body and mind are working to move stress out and the mind is not processing the action or mechanics because it isn't that interesting.
In the six months that I spent meditating 18 hours a day in training to teach I slept alot.

Some meditations such as guided meditations or visual meditations engage the mind in thought too much to allow for the mind and body to really settle down. Such a self hypnotic approach doesn't always allow for the effective stress release and expansion of consciousness. If one forces thought in any direction it can create a headache. The mind can never be forced, not even to clear itself. Thoughts are a natural part of effective meditation and it is important to allow them rather than to engage them. Some thoughts take the mind inward others take the mind outward.

Generally speaking thoughts invented from the surface of the mind to try and idealize experience and belief only keep the mind at a surface level. So not all meditative practices are effective.

INTERESTED...IN...ENLIGHTENMENT?
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Hermann Harlos
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THE AWAKENING

A letter-guided Quest for mystical experience

Copyright © Hermann Harlos 2007

http://www.hharlos.com/

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I agree that guidance supersedes the mental masturbation of egoic self indulgence and what takes place in self referral and egoic pride.


You misunderstand the surrender I speak of. Union of body and spirit is a surrender of delusion and fear to something more substantial, not a negotiation between these two different things. The illusion that they are separate is an ongoing democratic belief created by the ego, and the ego negotiates through a delusion that its own internal voice of fear and belief is spirit. Without competent guidance and a point of surrender the negotiation goes on for thousands of lifetimes and nothing is ever seen or experienced clearly.


I understand you. You believe that free will is easily dissipated for the illusions of others, and that each individual is subject to voices that are not manifest from the individual in reflection of their own beliefs. As such each individual can be victimized by forces not created from ones own self.

It does appear to the individual ego as such, if one can not discern the voice of their true Self, when it is mired by the loud chatter of the egoic voice which mired in belief and opinion, which is self destructive and fear based.

This process is part and parcel to growth. If a parent tries to keep their child from putting the hand on the hot stove or from falling, the child does not learn the difference between pain and pleasure. Without the contrast of belief and opinion and the suffering it creates, it does not gain the experience to know the difference in suffering and Bliss. It is for this very reason the hand of God does not sweep down upon the earth to remove free will and lobotomize the human intellect with one complete experience of Blissful being. In order to experience ones self as the Creator of life one has to know what is inside of ones Self before one can be an effective creator. With the ego as it is it would be difficult to assume humanity would not easily destroy itself in an impulse of anger if given full human ability without first developing a sense of reality or the consciousness to wield the power.
The truth of the matter is..that even the example of Truth has always been present as the contrast to human egoic suffering. The traditions of ascending ignorance has been sometimes kept from the ignorant for the reason that humanity has not been ready for it. But those that have had their reason to hold truth and example back have also made the choice to bring it forward when humanity is ready for more. These truths have been available for those who have the eyes to see and the ears to hear.
Always there are a few who are fearful enough to wonder if children should be tempted by the car keys that are laying on the dining room table thinking that the kids are just evil enough to steal them and take the car out for a joy ride that will end in their destruction. But then there are those who are a bit more optimistic as well.

You seem to have picked a side, or at least a direction of thought in what should or shouldn't be.

Oh gosh here I go with the questions again...So what are guides, or masters? Although I don't like the word master as I believe we can only master ourselves. But in eastern religions they believe they work with guides, masters or a hierarchy ...? In the physical world and in the spiritual plane.




18 hours a day, Joesus? I would be out - of - my - mind.
err.....but I guess that's the point....LOL



what meditative practices do you suggest for the beginner?

I appreciate all the time you take to write - : )

Thanks for the link Lindsay !

People tune into lots of voices. The masters are those who have mastered themselves and live in complete Union with spirit.
The "I and my Father are One" "What the Father witness in me I witness in the Father" Kind of union. A surrender of the ego to the One consciousness.
When one is fully surrendered to the One they are tapped into what is called "Spirit" "The Voice of God" "The Holy Spirit" the "Masters."
Anyone who has mastered themselves speaks from the same source regardless of how you view the personality and what the voice sounds like in the experience of listening to sounds.




Those that worked for the experienced masters who used meditation to achieve results the quickest.

There are many names but basically meditation that directs the mind toward the source of everything, where the mind is immersed in the absolute. It is there that the mind is freed from the limitations of temporary beliefs and the stress of egoic identity that is fear based.

There are two ways to enlightenment.. expand the intellect and remove all of the stress from the central nervous system, or remove all of the stress from the central nervous system and expand the intellect.

No I did not say that. In the paragraph above I said nothing about guidance and moreover about ego. I intentionally avoided that dangerous word. I consider the word ego as a misleading category. I said very clearly what I said: those who hear, experience voices cannot be sure who exactly talks with them on distance. That is what I said Joe. So that is why scientific method should be an important reference point verifying suspicious fogs of the spiritual experience.



Under surrender you somehow understand killing of the so called ego (though you use word Union), in my terminology it is equal to loosing some elements of Freedom of Will, but as I try to avoid usage of the word Ego because I consider it a misleading category for thinking, I do not discourse the subject following your ontology. Discard the word Ego and then we can talk on the subject.



No, you understand me wrongly, I do not believe in what you said Joe. I was talking about Levels and about moving people from one Level to another in a safe way, so to preserve Harmony and to provide Happiness to each at his level of the reality perception.



We utilize quite different ontologies. As I said before I think that the word Ego as a category of thinking must be discarded. It will be more convenient to utilize basics of the Data Base theory to deal with the subject. In that case we can convert the subject to more scientific-based terminology.
I shall need a lot of time, to translate what you wrote above into my ontology to explain you the differences between mine and your understandings of the matter. Even the word Truth is a quite relative category.
Consider what I said functionally: you have a real person whom you tell something, as e.g. a teacher you should select a set of knowledge, spiced in a way so by providing which you shall not disturb the inner harmony of a person in a way that he slowly, harmoniously and what is most important happily should dwell in the world. If you are not able to provide in portions a set of knowledge in the best way possible, then, I think you personally should learn from another how to arrange the set of knowledge to be imparted to a pupil. In case if you impart some knowledge in irregular way you run danger to transform a pupil's inner world irregularly, irregular transformation may cause irregular consequences.

Btw Joe, while quoting my words you copy paste the name of the quoter wrongly, please note that my words are quoted in your quotes under your and not my name. Hope you did that by mistake Joe. I corrected the quotes. So, please, do not make such mistakes in future Joe.

Hmmm, how interesting.

I know what you said and that is why I said what I said. Scientific precedence requires authoritative guidance. The ego when mired by superstition and belief hears all kinds of mind chatter based on fear and illusion. It is guidance that helps one discern Absolute truth from relative truth. Once one is established in absolute truth, false or relative truths are put into perspective.


Discard your boundaries of likes and dislikes and we can include what has already been said with greater understanding rather than narrow meaning into prejudice and negativity.


I understand you, I just come from a different point of reference. Fear is what keeps man in illusion and complacency. A good teacher doesn't waste time with someone who has no commitment to being a student. Everyone likes their level of comfort and far be it for me to make one uncomfortable. In fact it is rather impossible for me to do that. If I could it would mean I could take ones free will and direct their thoughts and emotions for them, rather than they making the choice to identify with what makes them comfortable or not. So you see we come from a different point of reference. One can only be responsible for what they choose to believe or understand. If someone wants more and I am the vehicle for their more, then I give them what they want, although sometimes they don't understand what they want. When the identification with relative truths misleads them and distances them from the voice of the heart, it helps to guide one back to the voice that is real. Because there is no set standard for belief and reaction to fear and illusion, there is no set standard for the teacher to act. The teacher must be flexible enough to understand what the nature of the heart is and what Truth is to the heart, and how to discern relative truths of belief and superstition from absolute truth of the heart.


Relative happiness is conditioned to belief and fear of loss. If something is taken away attachment creates angst and unhappiness. If a child loses its toy it becomes unhappy. The parent knows that the child will get over it if the child gives its attention to something else. Relative happiness is fickle and childlike.
Harmony exists within the fickle feelings of attachment that bring happiness and sadness. One can be taught to find it regardless of what feeling transpires due to egoic delusion of childlike attachment to feelings based on fear of loss created from such attachments. It would be a waste of time trying to keep the delusions of childlike behavior in place while directing the awareness to something greater. Change is disliked very much to the ego and its illusions of attachment. Discomfort is sometimes relative to the letting go of attachment. Pushing someone past their comfort levels which keep them deluded and limited is what is called compassion, that is the nature of the universe in evolution. Love combined with wisdom, to cut away illusions of the ego and its fixation with limitation as identity.

Sounds like an opportunity to stretch the mind beyond conditional reasoning to find common ground above and beyond idealization of relative truth fixated on specific language.


If the inner harmony is real and more real than the illusions of a disturbed ego, it cannot be any more disturbed than it is when it is hidden by belief. It can however be revealed or exposed within the relative boundaries of belief, superstition and happiness.
There is a saying. The bud is destroyed to reveal the flower, the child dies to reveal the man.

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


I also find this parable revealing of the meanings to harmony and happiness..

Mark 13:
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


The ontology as you call it is based on truth universal rather than egoic truth of belief and levels of relative comfort and happiness. It is directed toward the understanding of attachment and how it degrades the ability to experience reality.

A comment to comment with in comments

Starfish


Once upon a time there was a wise man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach before he began his work. One day he was walking along the shore. As he looked down the beach, he saw a human figure moving like a dancer. He smiled to himself to think of someone who would dance to the day. So he began to walk faster to catch up.

As he got closer, he saw that it was a young man and the young man wasn't dancing, but instead he was reaching down to the shore, picking up something and very gently throwing it into the ocean.

As he got closer he called out, "Good morning! What are you doing?"

The young man paused, looked up and replied, "Throwing starfish in the ocean."

"I guess I should have asked, why are you throwing starfish in the ocean?"

"The sun is up and the tide is going out. And if I don't throw them in they'll die."

"But, young man, don't you realize that there are miles and miles of beach and starfish all along it. You can't possibly make a difference!"

The young man listened politely. Then bent down, picked up another starfish and threw it into the sea, past the breaking waves and said- "It made a difference for that one."

How many "starfish" do you come across in a day?

- Author Unknown

Surely that should be 'within' ?