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YoungS
This is a forum about the human brain so I think i'm at the right place to suggest to start a topic about this.

Joesus
Good topic heading. Can't wait to see if you actually have something to say about it.
Lindsay
QUOTE(YoungS @ May 28, 2008, 02:11 PM) *

This is a forum about the human brain so I think i'm at the right place to suggest to start a topic about this.
As a unitheist/panentheist, while I respect theists, I find it impossible to think of gods, or of a person called God. This is why I prefer to use the acronym GØD, or GOD--all goodness, order and design. Orthodox Jews write G-d, for the same reason. For details, check out:
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15465
trojan_libido
We are the Universe experiencing itself. That is God, we are God, all is God. Everything else is semantics and personal taste.
Lindsay
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ May 29, 2008, 11:24 PM) *

We are the Universe experiencing itself. That is God, we are God, all is God. Everything else is semantics and personal taste.
TL, then how come our host designates you "demi-God", while I am getting the full Monte, "God"? biggrin.gif

But seriously, you are on the money. Now all we need to do is: bear witness of our status to all we meet, by our actions. Otherwise, we are hypocrites.

THE IDEA IS NOT A NEW ONE
BTW, nearly 2000 years ago, Jesus said a similar thing. Check out John 10: 34, "... I have said, you are gods". Then , in John 17: 20-24 he elaborates on this concept.
============================
THE GREAT SCIENTIST, PHILOSOPHER AND MATHEMATICIAN, Alfred North Whitehead, In his book, Science and the Modern World, said, long before Tolle and others spoke of the Now:

"In a certain sense, everything is everywhere at all times."

For the mathematical roots of Whitehead's cosmological thought check out:

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2365

THE EVERYTHING (that is, total sum of everything physical, mental and spiritual, in the Now) THAT IS EVERYWHERE AND ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Interesting.

And, to me it sounds like a good definition of what I have in mind when I say, G(null)D, or GOD.
Keep in mind: I have to write it two ways, because, except in my signature, my 'puter keeps changing the acronym, G(null)D, which I like, into G,D.

BTW, orthdox Jews write 'G-d'--for the same reason I use GOD or G(null)D--to make us aware that, for them, G-d is not a person, thing or an it.
Joesus
John 17 a translation from the Aramaic texts (the Peshitta) By George Lamasa. The comments following the verses are my own..

1 Jesus spoke these things, and then he lifted his eyes to heaven and said, O my Father, the hour has come; glorify they son, so that thy son may glorify thee.

( As Jesus was speaking the "looking to heaven" was the conscious connection of his soul to the absolute/God,. Setting an example by vibrational influence and through the intent of leading those who would hear and see he was guiding his disciples to the connecting influence that exists in humanity to unite with God to know God rather than to place the construct of illusion and belief on top of the unbounded spirit of the soul)

2 Since thou hast given him power over all flesh, so that to all whom thou has given him, he may have life eternal.

(To all that have recognized God within themselves in direct contact or experience there can be no failing of vision nor illusions of ego that could lessen the fact that the spirit is immortal and the spirit can and will maintain the flesh for as long as one wishes to maintain it. A statement to the truth of immortality.)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, that thou are the only true God, even the one who sent Jesus Christ.

(Only one who has direct contact through Christed consciousness can have an experience of God and as such recognize God in ones self and another such as Jesus the Christed or the Son of God)

4 I have already glorified thee on the earth; for the work which thou hadst given to me to do, I have finished.

( I, having become self realized to the extent that there is no distance in my perceptions of reality between God and any object of creation, have established the living link between the absolute and humanity for the growth of human consciousness in the tradition of surrendering all knowledge to my disciples, and to the satisfaction of their growth and establishment in enlightenment .)

5 So now, O Father, glorify me with thee, with the same glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

(Now let there be no distance between the visible and invisible reality of Spirit that exists in me, that has always existed in me even before the manifestation of the world [universe].)

6 I have made thy name known to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; they were thine and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.

( I have guided the men that were ready to know the Christ within, to self realization, they were of god and now have become god and are strong in their spiritual connection.)

7 Now they know that whatever thou has gtiven me is from thee.

( Now there is no mistake in their perceptions of reality. Consciousness recognizes consciousness, and as they are united with God in experience there is nothing other that they will see other than the consciousness that flows through me from its source in all the actions [miracles] that I do)

8 For words which thou gavest me I gave them; and they accepted them, and have known truly that I came forth from thee, and they have believed that thou has sent me.

( As conscious recognizes consciousness and unity of mind body and soul is experienced in the awareness and experience of the absolute they know the voice of God [holy spirit] and as such they know that I am One voice that is not of the ego but of God as it resonates within them.)

9 What I request is for them; I make no request for the world, but for those whom thou has given to to me; because they are thine.

(I direct my attention to those who are ready to hear more. To the world that is blinded and deaf, I do not waste time and energy in trying to convince them of their sovereignty. But to the innocent who are listening they are already connected to the absolute and hear the voice of God in and amongst their dying impressions of ego and illusion. For what I do and ask is in surrender to the will of God and the evolution of humanity)

10 And everything which is mine is thine; and what is thin is mine; and I am glorified by them.

( When a man knows God within there is no distance between God and creation. There are no boundaries of limitation. When one knows God within they automatically glorify with their sight everything that is, in creation. And as such I live in complete surrender to the will of God. My will is your will, your will is my will, that is the essence of Unity.)

11 Hereafter I am not in the world but these are in the world; and I am coming to thee. O holy Father protect them in thy name, which thou has given me, that they may be one even as we are.

( For me there is no illusions for I am in the world but not of it. I am spirit and there is no illusion of ego left in me to draw me outward and away from that fact. However these disciples still have remnants of illusion and of suffering that is of the ego and the world, they can be still mistaken at time to judge from the illusions of the world. May they be focused and strong enough to maintain the link that is the christed consciousness so that they may become eternally united, in stabilized unity consciousness, and to be in the world but not of it.)

12. While I was with them in the world, I protected them in thy name; those whom thou gavest me I protected, and not one of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

(In this incarnation I have taught and stablized the experience of God within the students that have come to me. I have guided and ensured that there is no doubt of the existence of the absolute God within them and their ability to surrender themselves to the inevitability of certain evolutionary mandates within the human race, except for one who wavers. (Judas who was struggling between the destiny of his soul and the projection of Jesus' purpose in this incarnation and his personal ideas of how Jesus should become a living King to destroy the Roman empire)

13. Now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak while I am in the world, that my joy may be complete in them.

(Referring to the upcoming crucifixion which he was well aware of, he was making a statement to the desire to stabilize Unity within his disciples so that they would join him not only in the awareness of God in the forthcoming event in the crucifixion but that they join him in his omniscience for all time. Because every man has free will he could not make them be anything, miracle power does not invade the free will of human spirit)

14. I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they were not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

( I have led them to their enlightenment and the ego in the world that is of the world has fought their teachings just as the ego has fought my words in my Teaching.)

15 What I request is not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst protect them from evil.

( Jesus was setting forth a living link between them that should remain even after the crucifixion)

16 For they are not of the world as I am not of the world.

(For they have the eyes to see and the ears to hear that are the trademarks of Christ Consciousness/Enlightenment)

17 O Father, sanctify them in thy truth, because they word is truth.

( Absolute reality, bind the Christ within those who have come to see, for all other is illusion and there is nothing other than the absolute One.)

18 Just as thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

( Just as I came into this incarnation consciously with the connection that exists between my purpose and Union I have become the living example of that Universal mind to those who have in their lifetime become aware of God within, and have planted the seeds of human destiny within their minds.)

19 And for their sakes, I am sanctifying myself, so that they also may be sanctified in the truth.

(By making statements of truth in manifestation I am affecting a living resonance in the fabric of time and space so that it may linger in the foundations of their creative efforts to be drawn upon in any future moment that they are still active on Earth)

20 I am not making request for these alone, but also for the sake of those who believe in me through their word.

( I am leaving this mark upon the fabric of space and time for all of those who are ripe and ready to become self realized. For anyone who tunes their vibratory essence to the absolute, the omnipresent God shall remain as a guiding light to lead them to their stability in union and enlightenment.

21 So that they all may be one; just as thou, my Father, art with me, and I am with thee, that they also may be one with us; so that the world may believe that thou didst send me.

( So that they will be conscious and realize that everything is the absolute and the absolute is everything, and in enlightenment shall be conscious of the perfection in creation and the intelligence that is guiding and expanding all of humanity as I was that living example.)

22 And the glory which thou gavest me, I gave to them; so that they may be one just as we are one.

( Just as that living presence lived through creation and guided me so I am a living example of Universal mind and by default am teacher to those who seek enlightenment.
[ In his previous incarnation as Elisha, Elijah (John the baptist) was his living teacher])

23 I with them and thou with me, that they may become perfected in one; so that the world may know that thou didst send me, and that thou didst love them just as thou didst love me.

( From Teacher to student in unity, pure knowledge of truth is passed on to the disciple by tradition so that the perfection of Truth is maintained in its purity for future generations.)

24 O Father, I wish that those whom thou has given me may also be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory which thou has given me; for thou hast loved me before the foundation of the world.

( For all those who seek God within shall experience God as the Pure Love and Truth that has existed and has always existed before Time and space was known.)

25 O my righteous Father, the world did not know thee but I have know thee; and these have known that thou hast sent me.

( God the absolute, is unknown to the ego, But I am a living example of human consciousness living beyond ego and those who have risen above ego know God the absolute in me as they know it within themselves.
Consciousness recognizes consciousness)

26 And I have made thy name known to them, and I am still making it known, so that the love with which thou hast loved me may be among them, and I be with them.

(As their teacher I have led them to their enlightenment thru the pure surrender of the voice of god [Universal mind] and I am still purely surrendered to that voice only, so that there be nothing other than the absolute mind in their perceptions of reality and union of the absolute in the manifestation of myself and themselves.)
YoungS
I started this topic because more than the half of the world still believes 'god' excist and in many cultures it is still taboo to openly speak about his excistens.

I know it's the creation of the powerfull human mind(!) and I think I have a good explanation for it.

After I became (full blown)psychotic, first thing I had to was educating myself that I was suffering from a brain desease, and it all made sense so the second thing was banning religion (also paranormality, spirituality, telepathie etc.) Now I did not hear 'god' his 'profets' or 'disciples' but it comes close to it, I heard the 'devil' and an 'angel' (freaky shit, I know!) If I was strong religious I might as well heard 'god' etc. So it slowely all came together to jump to conclusions.

Nowadays the schizophrenics that claim to hear 'god', 'satan', 'profets', 'disciples' with a persisting psychosis or the ones that have no illness insight are locked up in an asylum, maybe for life (and of course we got the ones that make the stigma bigger on us, are in jail, I don't further want to say anything about them). In other words the 'profets' were how it called nowadays schizophrenic without getting psychiatric help because there was no psychiatry back then.

When talking to religious (also my own family) people about his excistens, I keep coming up with sharp questions till there religious ignorance takes over and get offended really quick (I admit that I was the same before the illness).

The main questions I make to religious people are: Where is religion based on? on a book where every 'wise men' changed religion with there own interpertation? On 'profets' claiming to hear 'god'? if so, there are so many new 'profets' on this world why do they call them crazy and lock them up? Did u met 'god'? if so, what proof do you have? Is religion because of the fear that after death there is no such thing as heaven? etc. To continue my question spree I like to hear from those who think 'god' is not created by the human mind..

Joesus
QUOTE
I started this topic because more than the half of the world still believes 'god' excist and in many cultures it is still taboo to openly speak about his excistens.

Survey says more than 90% which is substantially more than half. Few cultures still live in the dark ages where God is taboo, but God is controversial in all cultures, largely due to the ego.

QUOTE

The main questions I make to religious people are: Where is religion based on?

I would change the question to what rather than where, and I would answer the question with experience of God, that'd be in everything and everywhere.

QUOTE
on a book where every 'wise men' changed religion with there own interpertation?

Books are written either by wise men who have come to self realization or by those who are not self realized and are writing about their interpretations of wisdom and experience of someone else, which is really the experience of themselves having an experience of someone or something else. In this case the subject matter has little to do with the subject of religion but personal beliefs about religion.
In the case of the bible, the subject matter was written long after Jesus died and what was recorded was the experience of the disciples as they lived and learned from Jesus when he was alive. Then that was translated into different languages often without any conscious awareness of the messages within the words that were translated.

QUOTE
On 'profets' claiming to hear 'god'?

People who follow others without being able to touch God themselves are not religious but superstitious.
Those who claim to hear or experience God cannot give their experience to anyone else and so those who claim God doesn't or does exist without the experience of God have no way of substantiating the reality of God or the non reality of God without direct experience, but they can speculate.
Religions have rallied themselves around speculation but it is not speculation that generally drives them to fanaticism but rather an inner drive to experience more when they refuse to believe such a vast universe has nothing to offer but negativism and a short life with nothing but death to look forward to.

Basically religions rally themselves around a vibrational influence that exists beyond the veils of human ego.
Those who have touched God and have that absolute connection to their mind body and soul enlivened in conscious awareness, touch others who are receptive to the unbounded qualities of life.
Humans then put that quality into words, and words lower the quality into descriptive definitions that fit into the boxes of human limitation. It is the natural tendency of any river to be connected to its source rather than to be separate from it. Humans tend to fantasize about reality and create illusions about their source when they have so long lived without any conscious connection to it. It is like a person who has amnesia and can't remember the past. We have come into each lifetime without the knowledge of past lives and the connection to our source. When someone remembers and begins to speak of it, it triggers in some the vibration of memories long forgotten.
For the ego it is a death song and if the ego has enough influence on the mind it will react violently against it.

QUOTE
if so, there are so many new 'profets' on this world why do they call them crazy and lock them up?
Some of them really can't cope in this world of limitations with the reality of God or no God, and as such cannot commune with their subjective and objective world.
People who cannot cope with that behavior put those who can't live to their expectations where they can be less of a disturbance to the majority. This does not mean they are having and experience of God or not having an experience of God. Only one who experiences God would know whether they were, and since science doesn't substantiate a pattern for God it does not have a way to deal with God other than to put it on hold, or to deny it altogether.

QUOTE
Did u met 'god'? if so, what proof do you have?
Proof of the pudding is in the eating, my teacher would say. For the mind that is closed there is no receptivity to God and so there is no taking ones experience and handing it to another. One can guide one to their own experience but receptivity is largely dependent on ones state of mind or freedom of will.

QUOTE
Is religion because of the fear that after death there is no such thing as heaven? etc.

Religion is sometimes the unenlightened approach to lack of experience. It can be a belief system based on the inner impulses that exist in everyone, that connects human to human and human to the universe. It is what drives man to be both religious and scientific. Religion is both belief and the ability to question and reason, and eventually leads to experience when the limitations of negativity are dropped

QUOTE
To continue my question spree I like to hear from those who think 'god' is not created by the human mind..

What created the human mind and the universe? Ask yourself which came first the chicken or the egg, God or the manifestation of the evolution of humanity?

The human mind is not the creator of God, only definitions of God, one who says they believe in God dies and the notion of God still exists in another and another and it continues to be a part of humanity and has been a part of humanity for as long as humanity has been in existence.
You have to ask yourself if what you believe and experience is the exact same thing another believes and experiences. Sure we can share variations to a theme but no two humans have exactly the same experiences. Even twins do not share the same destiny or nervous system.
Humans have free will and even those who say they don't believe in God have in their minds a concept of God based on the sharing of ideas but not the sharing of experiences. This makes each ones idea and belief individual not the same. Even the experience of God is different for each. God may be the same but no two people can claim the same experience. Even the continuing experience of God evolves and changes. simply because God cannot be contained in any experience or form.

For some the experience of God outweighs any idea and cannot be contained in an idea but can be described with ideas and concepts that are the languages of the human race.
Simply saying prove to me God exists or I will not accept that God exists is just a childish game. Eventually we all return to where we came from and there we drop all concepts based on 3 dimensional belief systems and limitations.
Intellect has a way of expanding in spite of our habitual tendencies to grasp onto the past, the proof is in our technological and spiritual evolution. This is not a genetic privilege set aside for humans, it is inherent in all of the universe, actually it is the nature of God.
The concepts such as the earth being flat are replaced with larger more intelligently comprehensive concepts. One or two hundred years from now we will have replaced the majority of our scientific beliefs with futuristic beliefs based on the accumulated knowledge of experience and understanding. I think someone claimed our technology is advancing exponentially where intellectual growth is far ahead of our educational systems ability to keep up. We teach our children from books that were written 10 years ago and as new things are discovered they approach the boarder lines of believability based on what the world understands and experiences.
God is not a thing that can be dissected. That is just small thinking. One has to actually have an open mind to allow God to come into the field of vision otherwise the vision that one has by wearing blinders never really gives one the appreciation for the fullness that exists in potential and power in the universe let alone within ones self.
The distortions of God and what God wants are evident in the historic actions of the past such as in the Holy Brothels, Christian holy wars, the Spanish inquisition and even in modern warfare where fanatics believe God is on their side in the beliefs of persecution and spiritual Jihad.
These ideas do not make God and as such can leave a bad taste in the mouth of those who know better in their own hearts that God could not be so limited to be subjective to one form or system of belief.

Humanity is still waking up to its inheritance and as such most are still children regardless of their intellectual dominance in the fields of science and art as they are now in this present moment of time.
Our own scientists have made discoveries regarding the technologies of past civilizations and one can hope that we will not end up as those civilizations of the past who have destroyed themselves with their science because they fought amongst themselves as they do when it comes to the subject of science and religion.

God gives us the power of choice. God does not demand we destroy ourselves or hurt one another. We choose to do that and as such we often choose to create God in mans image.

We are however created in Gods image of free choice and the ability to dream and create without being tied to one idea or concept. As we evolve in our awareness of who we are and what the universe consists of, we allow ourselves to be more receptive to the immensity of potential which lives inside of us. That is God and it never can be contained in any religious belief or any experience.
One need only touch that once to know that it is real.

Alignment with that then becomes the process of enlightenment...
Lindsay
YoungS, the feedback you just received from Joesus is similar in many ways to what I would give you. For me, GØD, or GOD is the sum and total of all that I have experienced, will experience and experience in the eternal now.

However, as a unitheist/panentheist--Did you google these? Or check out Wikipedia?-- I would never say, "God gives us the power of choice" or "God does not demand we destroy ourselves or hurt one another."

I find it impossible to picture gods, or a God, in human-like terms. Indeed, I find it impossible to picture all of GØD, or GOD, at all. I accept that, as a human being, it is not possible for me to understand the ineffable--that which is beyond understanding.
Joesus
QUOTE
I find it impossible to picture gods, or a God, in human-like terms. Indeed, I find it impossible to picture all of G�D, or GOD, at all. I accept that, as a human being, it is not possible for me to understand the ineffable--that which is beyond understanding.


God, beyond being encapsulated in experience does not mean God is beyond experience nor does it mean God cannot be experienced in Human form. Jesus spoke of being One with the Father and as such could without limitation express God in human terms. In fact he showed humanity what they could not believe was normal to the definition of human form and perception.
Humans are multidimensional creatures with the ability to become self aware not only of their manifest condition but their inherent source of power in consciousness itself. God does not will as a separate entity that humanity follow any course in choice, and as we destroy ourselves it is not of Gods will to separate and contract but of human choice based on the ego and its relative values. That we fight over issues that have no value of need or necessity to the reality of consciousness as it exists is not an endeavor of love but it is supported by a love similar to that of a parent that allows their children to grow into intelligent comprehension by experiencing the mechanics of choice.
What God has built into humanity is choice to align or not align with the Inherent construct of spirit which is in the expansion of love through the experience of creation.
This is the difference in experiencing Consciousness as it experiences itself and describing consciousness in terms that are relative to human ego and in principles of reason. Someone said the heart knows no reason and this is true for those who follow faith will often move past the boundaries set by reasoning to seek that which relative thinking says is impossible.
Ego thinks God sees values within creation that mirror the current state of human understanding. But God lives to expand love and that love is the potential that exists in the support of all aspects of creative impulse from birth to death, from sending a valentine to stabbing your mother in the eye with an ice pick.
Creativity: it is the natural function of cause and effect, and the natural mechanical function relative to how intention or focus navigates creative force within the universe.
God seeks as a natural part of itself to evolve and expand just as a tree has within it the built in tendency to branch out and rise to greater heights in the experience of itself. This is not of need but of natural properties that are way beyond the limits of definition.

What God creates is not with the intention to create good over evil for duality is the manifestation of opposites. In today's world we are all too familiar with the concepts of Good and evil and who can imagine a God that would allow evil to exist or to intentionally create a distraction from the good?
For those who demand that God is good and the evil having its own powers counter to God do not know God, for God is in the field of absolute being which is not separate from the manifest as it emerges from the absolute but has no attachment to the creative forces which paint the pictures of reality through intention and desire.
In any war there are two sides which represent the struggle between the holy spirit and the ego.
As man evolves from the separation of God and ignorance, he identifies with the body first and then eventually grows out of the body and into his immortal self. He also learns that Gods will is his own will for God is not separate from him. As one becomes enlightened all actions then are not born of the individual but for the expansion of the universe.
War then becomes not a holy thing, nor a fight between values created by individuals, but the mirror of the human intellect as it struggles within itself for freedom from limitation and identity and it includes the natural inherent spirit that supports the illusions of identity along with the properties of evolution and growth. That is the way we experience it here on Earth. This is one civilization and one classroom only. There are an infinite number of universes and classrooms and the human spirit exists in many evolutionary stages and some beyond the imaginings of the limited concepts that human ego can grasp as it isolates itself within its limited scope of reality of being someone, somewhere, at some time.


As a unitheist/panentheist Lindsay you must accept that the definition fits your beliefs rather than any construct needed by consciousness to remain as consciousness. Words to accommodate your current stage of comprehension less the experience of being God but in theory, the concept of being God.
It is only the human ego that must define itself in its ability and its limitations, and to remain a part of God rather than to be God which is without the constraints of egoic title.
To be a part is to understand separateness and fragmentation, or not understand God. To be God is to live without the need and reason of understanding but the flow of being both understanding and non understanding which is without the constraints of identity that is ego.
All that is, is all that is without relative reason and without being anchored at any time within the reason of relativity. It can be labeled but goes by no label in and of itself, for it is all labels and none at all.
To be, or not to be, or, to becoming...The constant is in the invisibility of spirit that eludes the ego and its necessary function to label itself along with the inability to adapt to the changing/ineffable spirit.

Its difficult to put a label on something that does not maintain any permanent image. So God is given a definition by labeling association to reason, and that reason being supported by the current administration of collective thoughts, based on past experiences.
The ego becomes something and everything is something or nothing. The Spirit is becoming and is more than all that is or ever will be because whatever is by title has a nature of impermanence, where God behind all impermanent definitions and labels is a constant. It is more than nothing and also beyond the confines of a something. It exists when all perceptions of sense that is physical or attached to the body are loosened, when the body dies and consciousness itself remains. But the body does not have to die in order to free the mind so that it can experience it just as it is experienced beyond death, that is just a superstitious notion. Consciousness is not bound to the body, only the ego limits itself to the human experience rather than the unbounded consciousness that is its source. One merely need subdue the ego by saying to themselves,"Ego you haven't served me very well, you have been the source of suffering and illusion and I would choose to not limit myself to this condition of such a fragmented identity any more."
Well, that and take on the tools to turn the mind toward consciousness and Self realization.
Good intentions are really meaningless if you are standing still in the cesspool of self absorption.

God does not demand anything, God does not dictate absolutes that are relative to experience because experience can only reflect a thought of the absolute in some form or function.

"As one who lives with the experience of God I can say what is truth because it is not of my own self that I speak."--Jesus
As such Jesus could say he was the Son of God and the Son of Man, both spirit and God/Spirit in human form. Not separate, and certainly not without the ability to describe through experience, the Spirit he was.

To know God is to experience God. To know of God is to take relative values and add a measure of ego to limit God in some form or even a value of infinity. God is not beyond thought or experience, if God was, then God would be limited by being infinite to be relevant, or beyond the scope of experience and thought that is the relative in its multidimensional levels of reality and perceptions that are so diverse within the human imagination/intuition and ability to experience.
God and the relative are never without each other, they exist as One.

QUOTE
For me, G�D, or GOD is the sum and total of all that I have experienced, will experience and experience in the eternal now.

This is quite a bit different than "God is the sum total of all (every ones and every things) experiences" that is and will be, when the "I" limits the experience to the personal.
When speaking to another you separate your experience from their experience, not only reinforcing the separation of yourself from the other but the separation of God in one and another. It is true that individual experience of God is limited by the ego and the experience of individuality but it is still the same God, not a part or fragment of God.
IF God is all then God is more than the sum total of the personal 'I", or ego experience, it is more than the sum total of all egoic individual experiences. It created and is the ego and its ability to individualize itself which makes God more than the sum total of the egos and their experiences but the creator of ego and experience which is more than a measure of individuals and totals. It is absolute in nature.
Which means there is no more God in one thing nor less God in another to amass a total God in and amongst the numbers.
The manifest is a reflection, rather than the components of God. Which makes the perception of Good and evil within a reflection an illusion of perception based on relative values of the ego.

Why do you believe you couldn't ever understand God? Why can't understanding exist in relative association to experience, or do you also believe you can't experience God? Relative values are like toppings on a cake. They are applied thru notions of the moment. One day the cake has chocolate toppings and then vanilla, or with nuts or icing or no frosting at all. The mind rarely stays in the moment and with ego in charge everything about God is reasoned from past experiences rather than the experience of now.

It would stand to reason that if you can't experience the now you can't experience God. Then any relative association to God would be a fantasy or a projection based on the limited accumulation of reference points within the personal ego rather than reference beyond the limited ego. That'd be reflective of the fascination you have with your own history and your own measure of worth that is invested in what the octogenarian King is, rather than what God is.
This is basically what Jesus meant when he criticized the Pharisees, accusing them of teaching and speaking of God without any personal experience or direct contact that is understanding.

Mt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

How does one become a minister of God without the experience and understanding of living in communion with the Holy Spirit and God?
Wouldn't that just be a preaching of beliefs, rather than communion with God?

In the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word shall be any word that makes sense to ones individual whims......

Sorta like lending yourself to brain surgery with someone who read about brain surgery rather than actually having been inside of a brain and performed it enough times to know what they were into.
YoungS
Joesus,

No offence, but I don't know what the hell you talking about, my english is just not that good to understand on how you put those sentences together. I will quote the ones that I do understand..

QUOTE

I would change the question to what rather than where, and I would answer the question with experience that includes everything and everywhere.


That is your interpertation, there are so much religious people still live by the books (bible, qur'an), or what a priest or imam says.

QUOTE

Books are written either by wise men who have come to self realization or by those who are not self realized and are writing about their interpretations of wisdom and experience of someone else, which is really the experience of themselves having an experience of someone or something else. In this case the subject matter has little to do with the subject of religion but personal beliefs about religion.
In the case of the bible, the subject matter was written long after Jesus died and what was recorded was the experience of the disciples as they lived and learned from Jesus when he was alive. Then that was translated into different languages often without any conscious awareness of the messages within the words that were translated.


There are very wise words in holy books, that's true but don't tell me the desciples really saw Jesus walk on water, Turn water into wine, There was something with bread also forgot how that story was or with one touch cure a little ill kid or how Moses opened the sea in half to walk through. Do you believe those things? We live in a world where it more sounds like a fairytail.

[quote]
Some of them really can't cope in this world of limitations with the reality of God or no God, and as such cannot commune with their subjective and objective world.
People who cannot cope with that behavior put those who can't live to their expectations where they can be less of a disturbance to the majority. This does not mean they are having and experience of God or not having an experience of God. Only one who experiences God would know whether they were, and since science doesn't substantiate a pattern for God it does not have a way to deal with God other than to put it on hold, or to deny it altogether.
[/qoute]

I don't really quite understand what you trying to tell me (senteces you use).
Was god not directly speaking trough Jesus, Muhammed, Moses? Commanding/Ordering them to say/do things what lead to Jesus his own death, Muhammed to a war, Moses jeapordyzing many lives to send them into the desert? Hearing voices in/outside the head ordering/commanding things is a typical symptom of schizophrenia.
Back then they were saviours, and not seen as a disturbance to the majority. Now we live in a time where knowledge is power and no one will ever believe that god speaks trough someone. On one hand religious people believe (without real proof) what was 2000 years ago on the other hand the time we live in right now, they are called crazy (because there is no proof), an disturbance to the majority, isn't this hypocracy?

It's late over here and i'm tired, I'll try to read and respond to your post tomorrow, maybe i'll understand more about it.
YoungS
Hey Lindsay,

[qoute]
unitheist/panentheist
[/qoute]

I think this is new for me, i'll look it up tomorrow, hope I can find it in Dutch for better understanding.

Joesus
QUOTE


No offence, but I don't know what the hell you talking about.......................

That is your interpertation, there are so much religious people still live by the books (bible, qur'an), or what a priest or imam says.

It would stand to reason if you don't know what I'm talking about, that you could only answer with the idea that it was an interpretation.
Ask yourself, how do you come up with an interpretation of what I said when you don't know what I said?
I think you are projecting from the experience of not knowing, but thinking about God as you make statements to whether God exists or not.

By the way I agree there are many who live by what they interpret from the Bible or the Qur’an and by following what others interpret. This is the sad state of most religions these days.
Those who were the inspiration for these scriptures lived by what they taught and experienced what most only dream of in communion with God.

QUOTE
There are very wise words in holy books, that's true but don't tell me the desciples really saw Jesus walk on water, Turn water into wine, There was something with bread also forgot how that story was or with one touch cure a little ill kid or how Moses opened the sea in half to walk through. Do you believe those things? We live in a world where it more sounds like a fairytail.

I don't find it necessary to tell you he walked on water, or turned water into wine, or fed thousands with a few loaves of bread and a few fish. You've already made up your mind that the world we live in is the tantamount reason for its impossibility. Just like those who believe things that are written in the bible you believe what you have read and have been told that are relative to the impossibility of miracles.

Do I believe these things? Absolutely. I've seen and experienced a few things in my life that go beyond the normal comprehension of belief and relative laws of science as it is, in its infancy.

By the way who or what is that actually tells you there is wisdom in the bible and the Qur'an? Is it someone else's idea or did you come up with that yourself?

QUOTE


I don't really quite understand what you trying to tell me (senteces you use).
Was god not directly speaking trough Jesus, Muhammed, Moses? Commanding/Ordering them to say/do things what lead to Jesus his own death, Muhammed to a war, Moses jeapordyzing many lives to send them into the desert? Hearing voices in/outside the head ordering/commanding things is a typical symptom of schizophrenia.
Back then they were saviours, and not seen as a disturbance to the majority. Now we live in a time where knowledge is power and no one will ever believe that god speaks trough someone. On one hand religious people believe (without real proof) what was 2000 years ago on the other hand the time we live in right now, they are called crazy (because there is no proof), an disturbance to the majority, isn't this hypocracy?

Relative values that are supposed to be knowledge don't always encapsulate the vastness of the universe.
For every question that is answered by science there are probably at least 10 more questions that come up that are relative to the study of reality.

Jesus, Muahammed and Moses spoke from the experience of union with God regarding the nature of reality. The word of God refers to the absolute potential that exists in all manifestations. It is not in itself a single word tho the Aum or Amen is referred to as the vibration of the universe or the "Word" of God.
Jesus by example in the crucifixion demonstrated that the spirit was stronger than the physical body and everlasting.
Moses led slaves out of Egypt in a representation of freedom of mind body and soul through enlightenment. The Ten commandments were symbolic of the natural laws of cause and effect in how the senses can be turned inward or outward, each having their corresponding affects.
Turning the mind inward releases the mind from its fascination and habitual addictions to beliefs and stresses ingrained in the neural pathways of the mind due to dualistic experiences and limited awareness of reality. Turning the senses outward create habits akin to the relative nature of sensory addictions to pleasure and the aversion to pain along with various bits of information passed on through the majority and its foundation of belief, be they scientific or spiritual.
Being that everyone is different and with different addictions, the outward sense addictions manifest themselves in attachment to symbols that represent psychological freedom from suffering.
Sex, drugs which include alcohol and tobacco, relationships, and other devices of mental and physical distraction like television and the internet are the tantalizing temptresses of instant gratification.

The Ten commandments are actually based on scientific principals.
Those that tend to lean a little more to the right would disagree in that any regard to spiritual intelligence is subject to relative values.
Even Muhammed spoke of the nature of spirituality or of the same things that Jesus and Moses did however they were all at different stages of their evolution and conscious enlightenment regardless of their ability to surrender to the voice and will of spirit in each experience and demonstration of spiritual living.

Each had their own experience because each human experience is unique.
Due to the diversity of human nature and its tendency to become attached to the relative some personalities appeal more to the nature of the surroundings in bringing in the teaching of spirituality.
The teacher always fit the classroom and the comprehensive ability of students.

QUOTE
It's late over here and i'm tired, I'll try to read and respond to your post tomorrow, maybe i'll understand more about it.

Understanding comes with time and experience. Try not to make a rules out of non-understanding. Many do you know. They say, "This is what I understand and so this is the way it must be," while they say to themselves and others, "I don't understand this or that."
It would stand to reason unless you believe there is nothing more for you to learn and understand that you might keep an open mind to possibility rather than to close it because you have a difficult time comprehending what is in your reality.
Lindsay
QUOTE(YoungS @ May 31, 2008, 03:30 PM) *

Hey Lindsay,

QUOTE

unitheist/panentheist


I think this is new for me, i'll look it up tomorrow, hope I can find it in Dutch for better understanding.
In my opinion, the great mathematician and philosopher, Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947) was a unitheist/ panentheist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_North_Whitehead
http://www.unitheism.org
Warren Farr, an artist, and I coined the word 'unitheism'
For details about my beliefs click on my name and then on my profile.

Whitehead believed that GOD is in and through all things--in the process of evolving along with us. In other words, GOD--all Goodness, all Order and all Design--is not a perfect human-like being who created the universe and then us. GOD is in the whole PROCESS of creation.
He wrote about process philosophy and theology. BTW, his father was an Anglican minister, with whom he had lots of dialogue, even debate.
Lindsay
YoungS:
=======ooo000ooo======
I think of GØD as goodness,
As order and design,
Which lives in perfect harmony
Within this soul of mine.

GØD's not some distant person
Who lives in heaven, apart,
GØD is the One who dwells within
The open, willing heart.

GØD dwells within each one of us,
Whene'er we give the nod,
We all become, with every breath,
Extensions of our GØD.
---------ooo0000ooo--------
Orthodox Jews have always felt uncomfortable about personalizing the 'God' concept. The very word carries too much baggage for them. Therefore, to avoid objectifying 'God' and creating an idol in the mind, when they write the name of the Divine Being, in English, they use the device 'G-d'. In speaking, they refer to the Divine Being as 'Adonai'--the Lord.

Because I agree that this is a problem, at least for me, recently, I started using the symbol--which is all that it is--GØD. In my humble opinion, it expresses the god concept in the theology I call unitheism.

By the way, I believe that it is okay for each of us to come up with our own story of god, and creation.
================================
Posters: Feel free to add your own poems, or ones that you find inspiring.
===============================================
I just got this note from a poster in another forum
http://www.ctr4process.org/relationality/v...php?p=1600#1600

Interesting. And a wonderful poem....... who wrote it might I ask.
What do you mean when you say about us coming up with our own creation? An interesting concept.
YoungS
hey guys i'll respond tuesday when I got my new pc parts, this frustrating b*tch pc keeps crashing.
trojan_libido
QUOTE(YoungS)
Where is religion based on? on a book where every 'wise men' changed religion with there own interpertation?
Religion is based on rational thought. Something is creating all of these systems, there is always a cause. Go far enough in science and you also come to the unknown, or questions science doesnt dare ask.
QUOTE
On 'profets' claiming to hear 'god'? if so, there are so many new 'profets' on this world why do they call them crazy and lock them up?
Hearing someone elses voice in your own head is scary, but its also an amazing work of biology. It just shows the how fluid the mind can be. We all have an angel and demon voice in our minds. Only with both can you arrive at a decision. I don't think there can be anything but false prophets. No one is speaking directly with God on a personal level, however we're all speaking with God on a daily basis if you realise the electrical signals moving through your brain and coming to decisions is based upon an internal dialog with a 'self'.
QUOTE
To continue my question spree I like to hear from those who think 'god' is not created by the human mind..
The mind was created by a physical process, slowly. When the mind was conscious enough to think about its own existence, we began to think about Gods. The concept of God is not just an ignorant mans crutch to hold up his own Ego, it is an inevitable response to the process we're involved in.

So 'God' created the mind and the mind created 'God'. Its circular reference and thats a good way to end this post.
YoungS
QUOTE


It would stand to reason if you don't know what I'm talking about, that you could only answer with the idea that it was an interpretation.
Ask yourself, how do you come up with an interpretation of what I said when you don't know what I said?
I think you are projecting from the experience of not knowing, but thinking about God as you make statements to whether God exists or not.



The most of your post I don't know what you talking about (because my bad english) but I said you have another interpretation of god his excistens than the average of the religious.

QUOTE


You've already made up your mind that the world we live in is the tantamount reason for its impossibility.



No I did not, a miracle for me is the universe itself, the excistens of human beings, how we are capable of curing deseases, how we can go further in science. I'd rather believe that some molucules (or whatever) bumped up in each other and gave us live then god created this all in 7 days (this just sounds nonsense to me). The scienetific theories and explenations of programs on National Geographic and Discovery just makes more sense.

QUOTE


Do I believe these things? Absolutely. I've seen and experienced a few things in my life that go beyond the normal comprehension of belief and relative laws of science as it is, in its infancy.



When you were trippin' on acid? haha just kiddin'! Give me some examples, what things did you experienced? About the profets, I think that they didn't do any of them, it's more likely that they had visions on doing such things what brings me back to symptoms of schizophrenia/drug use.

QUOTE


Each had their own experience because each human experience is unique.



Doing those things would not make them humans (made out of flesh and blood) would it? Jesus said he was the son of god, he got tortured and cruzified, for our sins? Or because he could not proof the miracles he claimed he did or could do?


QUOTE


By the way who or what is that actually tells you there is wisdom in the bible and the Qur'an? Is it someone else's idea or did you come up with that yourself?



No, I just know that it has a collection of standards and values (note: standards and values, might not be the correct translation) in it.
YoungS
QUOTE


Go far enough in science and you also come to the unknown



I agree

QUOTE


We all have an angel and demon voice in our minds. Only with both can you arrive at a decision.



Agree again, I could not come to a dicision in my life on what to do and they (my brain) brought chaos inside my head.

QUOTE


however we're all speaking with God on a daily basis if you realise the electrical signals moving through your brain and coming to decisions is based upon an internal dialog with a 'self'.



Don't agree, genetics, devlopment of the brain, pro's and con's etc. in a human life makes dicisions don't see a connection with god though.

So 'God' created the mind and the mind created 'God'. thats a good way to end this post ;-)
YoungS
QUOTE


unitheist/panentheist



Sound more like a spiritual (connection to god) religion, then christianity and/or islam. Am I right?
Lindsay
QUOTE(YoungS @ Jun 03, 2008, 08:31 AM) *

QUOTE
unitheist/panentheist


Sounds, to me, more like a spiritual (connection to god) and religion, than Christianity and/or Islam. Am I right?
YoungS, I hope you don't mind: To help you with your English, I have corrected your question to me. BTW (the short way of saying, by the way), from now on I will say that I am a unitheist, which I define in my signature. Okay? BTW 2, please identify who you are quoting.

It would be helpful to me to know: Your approximate age; how familiar are you with the Bible; what religions have you studied and what it is that gives meaning and purpose to your life. For details about me and my interests you can check out my profile.

You mentioned that unitheism sounds spiritual. Check out John 4: 24. There, Jesus, speaking to the Samaritan woman, tells her: "God is Spirit." He did not speak of God as an objective person living on any mountain.
The Greek for 'spirit' is 'pneuma'. It literally means air, wind and/or breath. From it we get words like pneumatic and pneumonia. Air, for the ancients, the people in Jesus' day, was thought to be mysterious and immaterial. They had no idea of modern chemistry. Today, they would probably describe spirit as: the mystery of space, the vacuum beyond the atmosphere.
Joesus
QUOTE
The most of your post I don't know what you talking about (because my bad english) but I said you have another interpretation of god his excistens than the average of the religious.

That depends on whether you could comprehend the existence of God in the average religion.

IF you are going to make a comparison you would first have to know what you are comparing it to. IF you are not familiar with the average religion then you couldn't make a comparison. If you are familiar, then what makes your experience of the average religion above the average so that you have an authoritative foundation in which to start?

QUOTE

I'd rather believe that some molucules (or whatever) bumped up in each other and gave us live then god created this all in 7 days

Of course you would, because you think in terms that are familiar to you. That is why I said you have already made up your mind what you want to believe. You would rather, is a statement of preference.
You have taken a stand and are wanting the stand to be dis-proven by someone else rather than to look for the possibilities otherwise through your own ability to open to possibility.
If a person is truly open to possibility they don't put their preferences in front of them when they are moving forward.
If you really want to know what 7 days are then you would have to search a bit deeper into scripture to understand what one day in the life of God is. I suggest you look into the vedic teachings and how they connect to astrology.
You just might find the molecules were moving with intelligence rather than by accident.
The idea that the universe came together by accident in such an order is similar to the idea that the Earth is flat, the imagination is sometimes connected to divine intelligence, and sometimes to the superstition of fear and ego.

QUOTE

When you were trippin' on acid? haha just kiddin'! Give me some examples, what things did you experienced? About the profets, I think that they didn't do any of them, it's more likely that they had visions on doing such things what brings me back to symptoms of schizophrenia/drug use.

Give you some examples? You think the creation of the universe is a miracle, what makes it a miracle?

If you had shown a television set to someone in the dark ages they would have called it the work of the devil. If you had stuck a needle and syringe with medicine into a sick person of the same time, the people would have said that you that you put something of the devil into them.
When Jesus was healing the sick the pharisees said it was the work of the devil.

Go figure people see things they don't understand and the first thing that comes to mind is to condemn the act and the experience from the fear that is stimulated by being in the unknown.
People don't witness and experience miracles because they can't allow themselves to step out of the known and into the unknown.
Several years ago a man came to a medical symposium to speak of a medical procedure that could detect pre-cancerous cells in women. The doctors in the building laughed the young man out of the meeting.
The young man was Georgios Papanikolaou the man who is given credit for the widely used Pap smear.

Anything I tell you is subject to your own ability to believe and you would rather believe what you can understand and what makes sense to you.
You have a way to go before you can make sense of God, because right now you know nothing of God other than what you have been told or what you have read. And what you have read doesn't make sense to you.
A college physics book doesn't make much sense to a 5 year old but then there is always room for growth and experience to prepare the 5 year old for greater comprehension.
Science is driven to answer questions, and sometimes they ask the right questions but they are not always the majority nor the mainstream.
The mainstream intellect is absorbed in books that are written ten or more years ago, and are self absorbed in the media which pumps people up with drama and information that is more of a distraction for the intellect than to really help anyone understand who and what they are.
Schools don't teach the meaning of life because they do not know.

People who are ripe to know are the ones who are opening to spirituality that goes far beyond the mainstream media and Churchianity.
How would you convince me you are ready for a miracle or that you are beyond the limitations of rather believing in one thing and actually open to experience it all?
What makes you different than someone from the dark ages who would cast accusation of dark forces? You've already jokingly thrown out the trippin on acid remark, and I'd say that says alot about your subconscious reactive mind.

QUOTE

Doing those things would not make them humans (made out of flesh and blood) would it? Jesus said he was the son of god, he got tortured and cruzified, for our sins? Or because he could not proof the miracles he claimed he did or could do?

Why couldn't it make them humans of flesh and blood?
Science says an atom is 90% empty space and everything is made of atoms according to science. So what does it mean to be made of flesh and blood that is made of atoms?

Jesus was crucified because he was a threat to the existing hierarchy. What he was doing was beyond the acceptance of those who were losing power and respect as the people were being taught that the ability of survival was not dependent on what others told them, but what they could understand and experience themselves.
The message Jesus was teaching was that universal mind is an intelligence that lives to create universes and that they were just as powerful.
Just as science is learning today that what we think affects the very life within us and that we make ourselves sick by worry, and that we can heal ourselves just as easy by changing the way we think Jesus was speaking to the effect of mind being the master and the body the servant rather than the other way around.
The human body is a microcosmic entity in a larger macrocosm, and the human mind/brain is a tuner for consciousness to connect the relative to the etheric absolute universal mind. The soul is an immortal spark not unlike an atom that can support a physical universe and still be 99% empty space, and it is intelligent as an atom has intelligence.
Anyone can become self aware, witness their thoughts and experience themselves as not the thoughts they are thinking.
But man has habitually taken their senses outward into the physical and identified with the solid matter, that is always breaking down in its temporary state of being.
Death has become the belief of man rather than life eternal. Man would rather believe that by random happenstance he comes into the world of change for a few years in ignorance, accumulating a few memories, ages, becomes invalid and dies, than to believe he is any more than that.
Most would prefer to believe their lives be defined by scientific methods, even tho science in the form of medicine produces doctors who are to be the experts for your health and longevity and have themselves an average lifespan of 60 some odd years.

Jesus was a man who was trying to get a sleeping humanity to awaken to greater thinking, and 2000 years hasn't created much of a change in the way we think about ourselves and how we so easily give our attention to false prophets and politicians who would destroy mankind to accumulate more power.

QUOTE
By the way who or what is that actually tells you there is wisdom in the bible and the Qur'an? Is it someone else's idea or did you come up with that yourself?



No, I just know that it has a collection of standards and values (note: standards and values, might not be the correct translation) in it.

Setting standards is the way we objectify our knowledge into rules. It is the way the ego protects its individuality. However, standards are not universal by rule of individuality and are often oriented to beliefs rather than universal principals that apply regardless of beliefs or individuality.
True wisdom doesn't come from rules or the ego. It comes to those who have experience in surrendering to that which is greater than individuality and any egoic standard of Earthly ruling.
There is alot you don't see in the scripture and that is because you don't have a conscious experience of God.
YoungS
Hey Lindsay,

thanks for correcting me. I am 24 years, I grew up as a muslim, gone to a christian high school, not strong religious btw, just know the basic stories as you can see in my posts concerning christianity and islam. See the first post why (from my perspective) religious thoughts got all wiped out of my head/life.
YoungS
Joesus,

QUOTE


That depends on whether you could comprehend the existence of God in the average religion.

IF you are going to make a comparison you would first have to know what you are comparing it to. IF you are not familiar with the average religion then you couldn't make a comparison. If you are familiar, then what makes your experience of the average religion above the average so that you have an authoritative foundation in which to start?



I comparing it to the average religious I know/knew, I can hardly speak about people I don't know, can I? No need to be uptight right?

QUOTE


Of course you would, because you think in terms that are familiar to you. That is why I said you have already made up your mind what you want to believe. You would rather, is a statement of preference.
You have taken a stand and are wanting the stand to be dis-proven by someone else rather than to look for the possibilities otherwise through your own ability to open to possibility.
If a person is truly open to possibility they don't put their preferences in front of them when they are moving forward.




I was religious and I'm open for arguments, you only read what you want and ignoring the arguments I give, that's what I ment with religious ignorance.

QUOTE


(1) You just might find the molecules were (2)moving with intelligence rather than by accident.
(1)The idea that the universe came together by accident in such an order is (3)similar to the idea that the Earth is flat, the imagination is sometimes connected to divine intelligence, and sometimes to the superstition of fear and ego.



(1) I can't comment on this (neither can anyone) because we can only speculate (theory)
(2) A cheap shot that god is behind this?
(3) Not quite similair

QUOTE


You've already jokingly thrown out the trippin on acid remark, and I'd say that says alot about your subconscious reactive mind.



Yea it says that I have a sense of humor, if I was sarcastic or messing with you I would not say haha Just kiddin'! would I? and move on with the subject (Give me some examples, what things did you experienced?), what susprisengly I got no answer to.. Just what I had expected..

QUOTE


Jesus was a man who was trying to get a sleeping humanity to awaken to greater thinking, and 2000 years hasn't created much of a change in the way we think about ourselves and how we so easily give our attention to false prophets and politicians who would destroy mankind to accumulate more power.



Do you have the courage to say that he has failed? I can say it, without being worried that I have to pay the price at the porter of heaven. Without religions there would be less war on this world.

QUOTE


There is alot you don't see in the scripture and that is because you don't have a conscious experience of God.



I take back my words that you are different then the average believers, ones more you have proven how religious people think.
lindsayking
QUOTE(YoungS @ Jun 03, 2008, 02:46 PM) *

Hey Lindsay, thanks for correcting me.

I am 24 years old. Here are th facts about me:
I grew up as a muslim, but I went to a christian high school. I am not strongly religious. btw, as you can see in my posts concerning christianity and islam, I just know the basic stories. See the first post why (from my perspective) religious thoughts got all wiped out of my head and life.
YoungS, my only son is married to a Sufi Muslim, from Iran. She is the mother--and a good one-- of my three grandchildren. We all get along, very well.

I make no attempt to tell my daughter-in-law that Christianity is better than Islam. In my opioion, all good religion which helps people be truly humane is okay with me.
Joesus
QUOTE

I comparing it to the average religious I know/knew, I can hardly speak about people I don't know, can I? No need to be uptight right?

No, no need to be uptight but being truthful is always helpful, and when we are talking about religion it is best to know what we are talking about.
You say you know the basic stories, but do you know from what they come? Do you know what kind of experience the men in the stories were having other than what you have been told or what you have read?
In other words have you had the experience that Jesus and Muhammad had when they spoke to their disciples, who in turn wrote about their teachings and subsequently created the scriptures that are the Bible and the Qur'an?
Sort of a story of first hand experiences turned into books, and later... for some a cult following, and an inspiration to others (who were more intelligent) to find their own experience. God loves stupid people too...

By the way you haven't yet told me what makes the Universe a miracle other than the few things you have said impress you. Are you just insinuating that whatever impresses you is a miracle? Are you seeking to find truth in religion by being impressed, or to clear the bad taste left in your mouth when you considered yourself and religion to be ignorant?

QUOTE

I was religious and I'm open for arguments, you only read what you want and ignoring the arguments I give, that's what I ment with religious ignorance.

So you are saying that when you were religious you were ignorant. So what has changed? This is a serious question by the way. I'm letting you make the argument as you will, for your worthiness beyond the ignorance you claim goes with religion and your past as a religious person.
By the way I never ignored the argument that you are having. I don't really look at it as an argument but a discussion. And I don't find it necessary to live up to your expectations of how we proceed in this discussion.
In an argument people tend to take sides and then want to win something or to be right. I don't see any religion as being wrong and I don't think religion needs to be defended. People often think they need to defend themselves because of what they believe, and usually they feel better if others think the way they do so that their being right, is more right. Few have any self worth greater than a toad, and some are always seeking to create enough drama in others so they will not have to think about their own self worth. That is usually the consequence of taking sides.
So to be open is a bit more than creating arguments, taking sides to seek right and wrong or to only value a thing one way.
You seem to really want to maintain religion with ignorance yet you also claim there is wisdom in the scripture. In order to find the wisdom that is truth one must not make any quick judgments or make any assumptions based on ones own lack of understanding, so I'm lending myself to the conversation to weed through the emotional attachment to your judgment so that you may become more objective, rather than subjective about the discussion.

It's always good to get through the emotional attachments first so that the blinders are off and the mind is clear for reception.

QUOTE

(1) I can't comment on this (neither can anyone) because we can only speculate (theory)

But people do comment on it. Jesus and Muhammad commented on it, and not from theory but from their actual experience. That is what they taught their disciples and what they spent their time doing with the disciples in leading them to their own experience. You really must learn more about Jesus in Christianity and the Teachings of Muhammad.
There is so much more to know and experience than to just make assumptions about a few stories.
QUOTE

(2) A cheap shot that god is behind this?

Common sense would be more like it. I think you're stuck on an image of what God is based on your thoughts about religion when you believed you were ignorant and religious. God is behind, in, in front, on top and underneath everything.
QUOTE
(3) Not quite similair

Only because you want to believe that where you are in time and space, is better than those who lived when the world was thought to be flat. Everyone has a subconscious fear that they could be living a lie, its what the ego is.

QUOTE


Yea it says that I have a sense of humor, if I was sarcastic or messing with you I would not say haha Just kiddin'! would I? and move on with the subject (Give me some examples, what things did you experienced?), what susprisengly I got no answer to.. Just what I had expected..

Well then subconsciously it wasn't a surprise, you had already closed yourself off to any possibility, which is what I was saying about your subconscious expectations. The mind actually has to be open to the experience.
People often use humor to cover up what they are really thinking. Besides why would you want to take my word for something if you haven't experienced it for yourself?

QUOTE

Do you have the courage to say that he has failed? I can say it, without being worried that I have to pay the price at the porter of heaven. Without religions there would be less war on this world.

Failed ? Not at all. He was much more conscious than ego is about success and failure. Free will is one of the attributes of the image of God that man is created in. Jesus planted many seeds regarding unconditional love, he never tried to force anyone where they wouldn't go.
Heaven is not some far off place one finds after death. In fact you don't know your bible very well. Jesus taught that Heaven was right here on Earth. It is a state of conscious liberation rather than some cosmic place in space.
And I have to disagree with you that religion is the cause for war. People of greed are the reason war exists. Religion is often a front for political control. In the historical examples of the past, religion was a convenience for those who sought power and control over the masses. Kinda like Oil is today.

QUOTE

I take back my words that you are different then the average believers, ones more you have proven how religious people think.
Does that mean you are proof that religion doesn't have any foundation in reality because you are one more spokesperson who has something to say about people who are religious?
Personally I don't consider myself religious. I think people who associate the use of the word God as strictly religious in nature fail to understand the scientific value of universal mind or as Einstein used to call it the Unified Field. God is a word, but for some folks, they just can't get past their own ideas about it and it becomes something of a Pink Elephant.
YoungS
You know Joesus I really wanted to comment to what your saying but I won't, the main reason I opened this thread is because in my opinion the 'phropets' had nothing more or nothing less then a brain desease what is called Schizophrenia nowadays. They just spread 'gods wise words' at the right time and place.

Even a healthy person can have a experience with 'god' etc. just by poppin' a LSD stamp.
Lindsay
YoungS, here is how I understand what you wrote:
QUOTE(YoungS @ Jun 05, 2008, 11:49 AM) *
You know, Joesus, what I really wanted to do was to comment on what I think you're saying, but, because I do not understand what you are saying, I feel frustrated, so I won't.

BTW, the main reason I opened this thread is as follows: I am convinced that the prophets (people who believe they speak for God)--for example Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, and the like--were all schizophrenics. In other words, they were mentally ill. They were successful at their time, and convinced most people that they spoke 'God's wise words' because, like Hitler, they came at the right time and the right place.


YoungS, did I understand you meant to say? Have I stated your position fairly?
You go on:
QUOTE
Even a healthy person can have an experience with 'god' etc., just by poppin' a LSD pill.

YoungS. IMO, you sound like you prefer to debate, rather than dialogue.

Debaters start by stating a proposition, or making an argument. The goal is to win points and to win the debate. It is a zero sum--someone has to win--game.

I prefer to dialogue. Dialoguers start by stating an opinion, or a theory. The goal is to stimulate people to get involved, and to ask questions until we arrive at the solution of a problem.

If you want to debate and "prove" your argument, take on people like J. If you want to find solutions, let's dialogue?
YoungS
Lindsay,

Yes it is almost fairly.

You know, Joesus, what I really wanted to do was to comment on what you're saying, but I won't.

BTW, the main reason I opened this thread is as follows: I am convinced that the prophets (people who believe they hear and speak for God)--for example Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, and the like--were all schizophrenics. In other words, they were mentally ill. They were successful at their time, and convinced most people that they spoke 'God's wise words' because, they came at the right time and the right place.

YoungS
QUOTE


Do I believe these things? Absolutely. I've seen and experienced a few things in my life that go beyond the normal comprehension of belief and relative laws of science as it is, in its infancy.



From this point I do want to continue...

QUOTE


By the way you haven't yet told me what makes the Universe a miracle other than the few things you have said impress you.



The life on earth is a miracle, and that makes the universe a miracle, as the earth is part of the universe.
All those billions stars and planets, it's just one of my favorites to think about, that we are possibly not alone, if we ever can travel at the speed of light without getting vaporized to explore what else is out there.
Lindsay
QUOTE(YoungS @ Jun 05, 2008, 01:39 PM) *

Lindsay, Yes it is almost fairly. ...
But my question remains: What do want to do about your proposition: Do you want to debate it? Or to dialogue about it? IMO, even so-called normal people are mentally imbalanced, now and then.

BTW, how would it ever be possible to judge the mental health of any of the ancients? The bottom line, as I see it is: What moral good was accomplished by what they said and did?
Joesus
QUOTE
You know Joesus I really wanted to comment to what your saying but I won't, the main reason I opened this thread is because in my opinion the 'phropets' had nothing more or nothing less then a brain desease what is called Schizophrenia nowadays.

Well it looks like you did comment even tho you said you won't. By the way I had an opinion once...

QUOTE
They just spread 'gods wise words' at the right time and place.

Gods words!!??...Say hallelujah!!! wub.gif
This brings up an interesting idea. Evidently you are saying one thing and doing another, do you think you are schizophrenic, and do you believe that God is a schizophrenic delusion because of what you have been told by some authority, or because of what one of you has told the other of you?

QUOTE

Even a healthy person can have a experience with 'god' etc. just by poppin' a LSD stamp.

A healthy person can have an experience of God without creating an altered state of mind through artificial means. The experience is much more grounded in the sense of real perception and it is most likely that the doubts that follow the use of hallucinogenics as to whether the experience was real or not, will not plague ones senses when they trip again and fail to have the same experience.
Generally speaking when one experiences God in a normal state of mind the experiences may change but the presence of God does not, and it does not leave ones senses as it does when one trips.

QUOTE
From this point I do want to continue...
This is good, then I won't have to answer the second person who repeated their statement that they weren't going to continue, the second time.

QUOTE

The life on earth is a miracle, and that makes the universe a miracle, as the earth is part of the universe.
All those billions stars and planets, it's just one of my favorites to think about, that we are possibly not alone, if we ever can travel at the speed of light without getting vaporized to explore what else is out there.

Well your never alone if you're schizophrenic...
OK... joking aside. What makes something a miracle, is usually when the mind is stretched a bit and the left hemisphere of the brain is stimulated. It is the logical side of the brain where the right side is the intuitive side. Generally speaking most men are left brain dominant and women are right brain dominant, which is why men and women fail to see eye to eye all of the time.
As I mentioned once before if you were to bring a Television into the experience of someone from the dark ages they would think it was either a miracle or demonic. Since they were so superstitious they pretty much made anything that wasn't normal demonic, but if they were a bit more open minded and less paranoid they would have looked at the television with awe and amazement because they wouldn't have imagined something like it could be real and exist.
Such is the state of mind that human evolution creates when it doesn't understand something but sees it as a part of reality.
When science gets a hold of it and breaks it down, it doesn't become miraculous anymore it becomes mechanical. Just like when science gets a hold of someone experiencing split personalities, it breaks them down into mechanics that are relative to what is known as not a broken human.
100 years from now will science look at current technology as we do the dark ages?

Anyway God is mechanical as well as intelligent. Its reflected in us and in the universe. Nothing is random, everything is precisely located and has a perfect function. That it appears miraculous to us just means we can't wrap our limited minds or experience associated ideas around it. Best way to expand our sense of awareness is by changing the way we look at things and to look at it through a different set of eyes.
Hence the teachings of the Masters such as Jesus and Muhammad. They were hardly delusional, in fact they were pretty clear, while the rest of humanity during their time were still trying to match wits with the goats and the chickens. The men were treating their women like their livestock and most men weren't much smarter than their livestock.

The goats and chickens of that time were less worried about survival and superstitious phenomena than the humans, which I think put them ahead on the evolutionary scale. They probably would have dominated the planet as a species if they could have become a bit more aggressive and started eating the humans for food like the humans were doing to them, but being herbivores they didn't have a chance. wink.gif
YoungS
QUOTE


(1)Evidently you are saying one thing and doing another, do you think you are schizophrenic, and do you believe that God is a schizophrenic delusion (2)because of what you have been told by some authority, (3)or because of what one of you has told the other of you?



(1)yea I think that religious people are having one massive delusion believing 'god' exists, the illusion that 'god the higher power' is in control on everything that exists, happens and will happen.
(2)No autohority need to tell me this, infact some people suffering from schizophrenia get 'closer to god' whilst some (like me) see the light at the back of the tunnel that the brain is that powerfull (even when chemicals are imbalance) to play tricks on us, that triggers believes (delusions) of the excistens of 'god' or whatever that has no proof of connection to reality.
(3)What do you mean by saying this?

QUOTE


Do I believe these things? Absolutely. I've seen and experienced a few things in my life that go beyond the normal comprehension of belief and relative laws of science as it is, in its infancy.



You seem to keep ignoring what you started, let me guess, because you never expierenced anything then the reality of life?


QUOTE


Well your never alone if you're schizophrenic...



mmm.. a joke about trippin' on acid and a joke about a illness, where world wide 1 out of 100 suffers from. Put it on a scale, let me know what the display says about you.

QUOTE


Just like when science gets a hold of someone experiencing split personalities

Hence the teachings of the Masters such as Jesus and Muhammad. They were hardly delusional, in fact they were pretty clear



Maybe you should look up the symptoms (specially what is called positive symptoms) of schizophrenia instead of translating the Greek word.
Once you have done that, compare it with the 'prophets' maybe you will see some connections.
YoungS
@ Lindsay,

I prefer a debate.

QUOTE


(1)even so-called normal people are mentally imbalanced, now and then. (2)how would it ever be possible to judge the mental health of any of the ancients?



(1)true, that's when people (don't know how to put it correct) have unrational thoughts and expierences. Some end up in psychiatry, most of them recover without any help, looking back at a weird time in their lives.
(2)As a diagnosed schizophrenic for me this means that my brain could not process that what was happening in my life and to compensate, my brain created a demon and angel. Looking from that point of view it's more likely for me that the brain had chemical imbalances rather then demons and angels really excists. And off course no one really knows what there (ancients) mental health status was but it seems awful lot like the expierence of schizophrenics claiming to hear and talk to 'god', have visions, having a different reality. That, in my opinion, made them special (a prophet) for the people that lived in that time.

QUOTE


The bottom line, as I see it is: What moral good was accomplished by what they said and did?



By claiming they were 'gods son or speaker' bringing a mass psychosis to the world where we still live in. In other words nothing more than a illusion that is a start in almost every war.



Joesus
QUOTE

(1)yea I think that religious people are having one massive delusion believing 'god' exists, the illusion that 'god the higher power' is in control on everything that exists, happens and will happen.
(2)No autohority need to tell me this, infact some people suffering from schizophrenia get 'closer to god' whilst some (like me) see the light at the back of the tunnel that the brain is that powerfull (even when chemicals are imbalance) to play tricks on us, that triggers believes (delusions) of the excistens of 'god' or whatever that has no proof of connection to reality.
(3)What do you mean by saying this?

1) If over 90% of the human race believes in a God of some sort and not all of them think they are religious then you might be in a minority that labels them religious and delusional.
2) The brain is a mechanical receiver, it works through the grace of consciousness itself. Without consciousness it is a dead piece of flesh, which is 99.99% empty space.
3) Never mind, you aren't really listening anyway..

QUOTE

You seem to keep ignoring what you started, let me guess, because you never expierenced anything then the reality of life?

The reality of life is what we are discussing. You see life according to your own personal experiences and definitions.
You seem to want me to prove my experiences but you can't really let go of yours to allow them to be real without me proving yours are wrong or mine are right, but its not about right and wrong. Life is not a debate or an argument. Children have their experience of life until they grow into greater comprehension of life. Until they reach a state of conscious awareness where comprehension is expanded some things just aren't understood other than at a level that is attached to personal space and limitations of identification with ego.

QUOTE
mmm.. a joke about trippin' on acid and a joke about a illness, where world wide 1 out of 100 suffers from. Put it on a scale, let me know what the display says about you.

According to the science of Yoga, or spiritual Union anyone who doesn't experience Oneness with God is suffering, which is more like 99% of humanity.
If I am in Union with God it makes me a minority.

QUOTE

Maybe you should look up the symptoms (specially what is called positive symptoms) of schizophrenia instead of translating the Greek word.
Once you have done that, compare it with the 'prophets' maybe you will see some connections.

I can see whatever I want, anyone can, but what remains above and beyond likes and dislikes, wants and aversions, life and death is the only real thing. Maybe you should look closer into what the prophets said rather than to make any assumptions according to superstition.
The Son of God is everyone, it is the Christed (anointed) consciousness that lies within humanity and for the most part dormant until one turns their senses and awareness in another direction rather than toward the movie screen to make the movie real rather than the one observing the movie.
The Son of man is the flesh or the body and its brain, the image on the screen created by the consciousness that is the Son of God.

Jesus never said he was the only Son of God, that would be delusional. The people who twisted religion for the purpose of political and spiritual control made him the only Son of God.
You should really step out of this anger you have toward religion and learn to see it a bit more objectively.
Take some time to really study where Christianity came from. It actually has its roots in Eastern spiritual philosophy that is very close to Hinduism and Vedic sciences. Jesus studied with the masters in the Orient during his teens and early adult years.
Lindsay
YoungS, here is how I read you:

I heard you say: "Certain powerful individuals--for example, Jesus--who claimed and preached to the masses that they were God's son, or God's earthly incarnation, eventually brought on a kind of mass psychosis to the world--the kind of world in which we now live. In other words, they brought nothing more than a illusion that is the cause of almost every war."

As I said before: Jesus, IMO--and not all Christians agree with me on this--taught that we are all the sons and daughters of god, not just him.
Have you read John 10: 34 and John 17: 20-24?
If so, what does this mean to you? If not, why do you avoid reading it?
rhymer
Hello YoungS,

First of all, I welcome you to Brainmeta.

You are quite obviously a thinker and prepared to ask the usual questions about Faith which many people do ask.

The key thing to realise about Faith is the meaning of the term. If we do not know something (about which we don't understand too much) we have to find reasons ourselves to explain them, or read of what other individuals believe explains them.
If you do choose somebody elses ideas as adequate explanations then you obviously want to align your own thoughts with those beliefs and have Faith in them.
For me, none of the described Gods or religions hold the True answers to our questions. They may each hold some Truth, but not the whole Truth, in my opinion.
Keep reading and try to reason the Truth for yourself and don't fail to read the wise men of the past and the present - the questions have been around for thousands of years.
Good luck.
PS. Bear in mind that one of your correspondents believes that if a man believes he can walk off a cliff and not fall to the floor below then he can walk off cliff and not fall to the floor below.
Joesus
QUOTE
PS. Bear in mind that one of your correspondents believes that if a man believes he can walk off a cliff and not fall to the floor below then he can walk off cliff and not fall to the floor below.

Who in hell would believe that!?......
rhymer
I don't believe there is a place called Hell so no-one is there!

You may not remember who would believe the cliff story (perhaps because I forgot to mention that the person walking of the cliff has to an enlightened person). Believers wouild fall to their death.

The references for the identity are:-

BrainMeta.com Forum > Philosophy, Truth, History, & Politics > Philosophy > What is God?

Mar 26, 2004, 06:21 PM

Rhymer
One man who sees in front of him a 1 mile long cliff edge ie., a big drop, steps forward.
Another man [who is standing beside the first man] has Faith that there is level ground in front of him and steps forward.

What happens to the two men?

Joesus
If the one who has faith is enlightened then enlightened man keeps walking and the one that sees his reality as he believes it falls and dies.
Joesus
Using that point of reference the quote:
QUOTE
if a man believes he can walk off a cliff and not fall to the floor below then he can walk off cliff and not fall to the floor below.
is misrepresented.
The enlightened man does not rely on belief but on knowledge of truth.
Take for instance a person who can ride a bicycle. He does not believe he can ride a bicycle he knows he can ride a bicycle. The knowing is not subject to changes in belief or any belief system. The fact that he can is stamped into his being.

So if we return to the March '04 conversation and put it into its proper context, the man who has faith and is enlightened does not operate from belief but from knowing.

A miracle is super-law in operation---the effectual working of subtle powers from the manifesting principals of God's astral and causal realms of creation. How these subtle forces support and impinge on physical phenomena is unknown to ordinary persons. The incomprehensibility of the miracles recorded in the Bible thus reduces otherwise intelligent minds to blind dogmatism or scornful skepticism. But why should there be cause for doubt when Nature constantly excites man with new revelations?
Jesus prophesied: "Greater works than thes shall ye do." (Verily. verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me [becomes more attuned to the universal intelligence of Christed Consciousness], the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do" -John 14:12)
He knew that the law of cause and effect was creating in this world an evolution of consciousness through which future generations would possess in incremental measure the means to bring about accomplishments theretofore considered miraculous. Amazing advancement will be witnessed as the the present ascending evolutionary cycle continues toward its apex.
Scientific and Spiritual knowledge will work more and more in harmony and ultimately in unity when humanity will gain the knowledge of the subtle laws that operate in the inner cosmos of consciousness. The spiritually evolved human being, gaining access to the microcosm of the spiritual eye, dissolves delusions, vibratory boundaries encapsulating the physical universe and brings on earth the super-physical capabilities of heaven.
Already many of Jesus' phenomenal feats can be deemed credible because of modern physics, at least in defining principles long known to masters who manipulate these cosmic formulas as easily as a scientist mixes elemental substances to create new compounds in his laboratory. Avant-gardes of science, true seers in their fields, have pried open the agelong-sealed core of the sacrosanct grossness of matter to reveal its electromagnetic structure, and to glimpse the startling wonders of matter sublimated into scintillas of light metamorphosing into consciousness, mind-stuff.

"What impresses our senses as matter is really a great concentration of energy into a comparatively small space," writes Professor Einstien,...Albert Einstien and Leopold Infeld, The evolution of Physics: The Growth of Ideas from Early Concepts to Relativity and Quanta (Cambridge university Press, 1938)

And the renowned astrophysicist Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington explains: "The world we see and experience in everyday life is simply the convenient mirage attuned to our very limited senses, an illusion conjured by our perception and mind. All that is around us (including our own bodies) which appears so substantial is ultimately nothing but ephemeral networks of particle-waves whirling around at lightning speed colliding, rebounding, disintegrating into almost total emptiness---so called matter is mostly emptiness, proportionately as void as intergalactic space, void of anything except occasional dots and spots and scattered electric charges.
(The Nature of the Physical World, Cambridge University Press, 1928)

In The Mysterious Universe (Cambridge University press 1930) Cambridge University physicist Sir James Jeans declares: "Today there is a wide measure of agreement, which on the physical side of science approaches almost to unanimity, that the stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears as an accidental intruder into the realm of matter; we are beginning to suspect that we ought rather to hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter--not of course our individual minds but the mind in which the atoms out of which or individual minds have grown to exist as thoughts.... (The beginning of the scientific recognition of God)
"The old dualism of mind and matter...seems likely to disappear, not through matter becoming in any way more shadowy or insubstantial than heretofore or through mind becoming resolved into a function of the working of matter, but through substantial matter resolving itself into a creation and manifestation of mind."
"To put the conclusion crudely, the stuff of the world is mind-stuff," Eddington summarizes.

Boldly forthright about the limitations of merely material investigations, he has written: "In regard to the nature of things, [Scientific] knowledge is only an empty shell--a form of symbols. It is knowledge of structural form, and not knowledge of content. All through the physical world runs that unknown content, which must surely be the stuff of our consciousness. Here is a hint of aspects deep within the world of physics and yet unattainable by the methods of physics." (Space time and Gravitation: an outline of the General Relativity Theory...Cambridge University Press, 1920)

A bit more close to the subject of levitation or walking off cliffs...

"The levitating Saint" Many Christian Saints, including Teresa of Avila and Joseph of Cupertino have exhibited miraculous powers of levitation and weightlessness. The Catholic scholar Monsignor Albert Farges writes in Mystical Phenomena (London: Burns, Oates and Washbourne, 1926)

"In spite of the strangeness of these facts they cannot be doubted. Not only are they perfectly authentic, but moreover, frequent in the lives of ecstatic saints...They have often been discussed and verified in the processes of canonization...
"St Francis seems to have been the first stigmatic and also the first ecstatic whose spontaneous elevation above the ground was officially confirmed, but since that time verifications have been multiplied. Here are some instances:
" St Peter of Alcantara was unable to hear the lofty words of St.John, Verbum cara factum est ['The Word was made Flesh'] pronounced without falling into ecstasy and being raised above the earth.
The Franciscan, Biagio of Caltanisetta, went into ecstasy simply at the names of Jesus and Mary, and, enraptured with their beauty, sprang into the air. Blessed Giles , of the Order of St. Dominic, remained suspended in the air in ecstasy for whole nights without it being possible to bring him back down to earth..St.Thomas of Villanova, whilst preaching one day in his cathedral, suddenly went into ecstasy and remained suspended in the air for twelve hours."
The levitations of seventeenth century St. Joseph of Cupertino are among the most famous. The London Times reported on March 24th, 2003: "In a message marking the 400th anniversary of the birth of St. Joseph, the Pope said that the Franciscan friar, who was said to amaze congregations by levitating and flying through the air, was spiritually close to our times. He was the patron saint of aviators and students.. Witnesses record that after falling into an ecstatic trance, St Joseph would utter a loud cry and soar into the air, sometimes flying down the nave, and sometimes flying out of the church and across the hills for several miles. He was put on trial by the Inquisition, but when he flew over the heads of his inquisitors, the judges referred the case directly to the Pope, Urban VIII. The Pope dropped the case after apparently witnessing an 'ecstatic flight.' Numerous important people, including Fredrick, Duke of Brunswick, and Prince Casimir of Poland testified to having seen the flights."
Lindsay
QUOTE(rhymer @ Jun 07, 2008, 02:49 PM) *

Hello YoungS,

First of all, I welcome you to Brainmeta.

You are quite obviously a thinker and prepared to ask the usual questions about Faith which many people do ask.

The key thing to realise about Faith is the meaning of the term....
Rhymer, reading some of your comments it would be helpful to know a little more about your philosophy and theology. Unless you prefer not to comment on this.

Keep in mind: as a humane unitheist, there are many things about which I am agnostic.

BTW, I respect all sincerely held opinions, especially if they are based on the Golden Rule.
======================================
BTW 2, has anyone heard of the work of a Russian, self-taught physicist, who calls himself Socratus. Here is his site:

http://www.socratus.com/eng/abouteng.html

If anyone, trained in physics, can make sense of what he writes, let us know.
rhymer
Lindsay,
In answer to your post.....

I don't think there's a word with which I can be categorised.
I was brought up as a Christian in the C. of E. and very involved up to the age of about 25 in all aspects of Church work.
I still create flower cards and Religious weekend program sheets in support of the members of my wife's Church. I have even written one poem which spurs people to support their Church; it does not presume a religion.
I do not attend any religious occasions except births, marriages and deaths.
I do not believe there any Truths behind any God(s) or Religion.
I do know that Gods reside within temples (ie. behind the forehead).
I do not believe that Gods do not exist.
I just don't know, and seek the Truth with a contented disposition.
I think perhaps the best way I can describe my thought processes is to tell you that if I do arrive at a conclusion to some preponderance, as I model my vision of the world and external Reality, I will say to myself that "It's as if .........".
But, I do not know that I found a Truth.
Nonetheless, I do believe that very often I am close to drawing the right conclusions.
I respect everyone of any opinion even though I may disagree with them. Your frequent requests for dialogue rather than argument are an excellent idea. Egos need to be kept out of discussion; finding a common Truth is hard enough without folks trying to establish themselves as seers!
Joesus
Finding any common truth, is impossible when no one is a seer.
rhymer
It is possible that a person who detects a Truth is called a seer.
Who decides that any one person is a seer in your opinion?
Joesus
QUOTE(rhymer @ Jun 09, 2008, 11:43 PM) *

It is possible that a person who detects a Truth is called a seer.
Who decides that any one person is a seer in your opinion?

How could one possibly recognize a seer unless one has the ability to see themselves?
To that effect only one who sees can recognize a seer. Anyone else would be lacking any experience in identifying truth.
Lindsay
QUOTE(rhymer @ Jun 09, 2008, 11:39 AM) *
Lindsay,
In answer to your post ... I don't think there's a word with which I can be categorized.
I was brought up as a Christian in the C. of E.

Perhaps you have heard the old joke: C&E stands for Christmas and Easter. biggrin.gif Perhaps like many of us, you are a pilgrim on the pathway of life. Initially, the first Christian were called followers of the Way--the journey, the pilgrimage, not THE way. Taoism, in Chinese, means the same thing.

"I have even written one poem which spurs people to support their Church; it does not presume a religion."
Could we see the poem?

"I do not attend any religious occasions except births, marriages and deaths."
It would be interesting to know: The size of the church; how many attend; the quality of the preaching; if it is thought provoking.

"I do not believe there any Truths behind any God(s) or Religion."
What about the role many church leaders, over the centuries, have played in helping bring public, education, hospitals, prison reform, the end of slavery and many other forms of about social justice. In modern times, for example, we have had the work of Martin Luther King, who gave his life to end segregation. Look what Bishop Desmond Tutu has done, and is doing, for his fellow Africans? Is this not a truth, and of great value?

"I do know that Gods reside within temples (i.e. behind the forehead)."
Jesus taught this. The metaphor in ancient times was the heart. They had little knowledge of the human anatomy. Carl Jung, and A.N. Whitehead--panentheism (Check Wikipedia)--and others, all spoke of the god with us. To avoid confusion with pantheism, I use unitheism (also in Wikipedia), as in my signature.

"I do not believe that Gods do not exist."
Why the double negative?

"I just don't know, and seek the Truth with a contented disposition."
Rhymer, I am an agnostic about many things. But I am a very curious agnostic who is keeping an eye on the sciences, especially what is happening in physics. Professor Seth Lloyd, MIT, is doing some very interesting work about the nature of the universe. In his book by the same name, he looks at the universe as a QUANTUM COMPUTER.

"... But, I do not know that I found a Truth."
THE CHALLENGE OF MONSTROUS SUFFERING AND PAIN
For me, I want life to be an infinite and eternal, never-ending and enjoyable process--like an interesting game, with just enough pain and challenge to make it interesting. Perhaps if we can learn how to harness the god-like power in the brain and the heart we will get the wisdom and power to do something about the monstrous kinds of suffering and pain--the kind which has no gain-value.

THE POWER OF INTENTIONAL LOVE
I have this feeling that there is great power for good in simply desiring to have a moral, ethical and loving intention--even towards people who are not all that good, and towards circumstances which are down right miserable. And I am not talking about just "whistling in the dark", trying to be a "Pollyanna" or finding a "Shangrila".

Wayne Dyer writes about this and lectures widely on THE POWER OF INTENTION. It activates what is called "the law of attraction"-- mentioned in the book and the video called THE SECRET.

THE ART OF LIVING CREATIVELY
With the help of philosophy and the sciences, plus the fellowship of others in a kind of creative community, I have the feeling that it is possible to find the power needed and the right balance of knowledge and wisdom to make life into a thing of beauty--a progressive work of art.

"I respect everyone of any opinion, even though I may disagree with them. Your frequent requests for dialogue rather than argument is an excellent idea." Thanks for this comment. It makes my EGO feel good! smile.gif

Oh yes! You did mention the role of the EGO. Obviously, we do have egos. Now, perhaps we need to dialogue on the question: What is the role of the ego? Is the ego an evil part of our nature? Is it possible to be a loving ego? smile.gif

ABOUT OUR EGO STATES--as children, as parents, as adults
How many have read the book about our ego states, I'M OK, You're O.K. ?
Joesus
QUOTE
Now, perhaps we need to dialogue on the question: What is the role of the ego? Is the ego an evil part of our nature? Is it possible to be a loving ego?

The ego is not an evil thing, however it is the only thing that will attach itself to everything that is determined to be evil.
When it comes to love, there is attached love which is love that likes and dislikes and is based on conditions. And unconditional love which is not based on attachment to conditions.
The spiritual teachings of Jesus were about unconditional love. The Love of God which supports all of creation regardless of its nature, and that includes the love for man who is attached to love of evil.

The ego identifies itself and its love according to what it wants to see and maintain in a world it calls real.
Jesus said "I and my Father are one, and my father is spirit." This meant that God the Father (whom man was made in his image), was not a thing, or an object but consciousness itself. He was eluding to the fact that the relative world was a temporary creation and that the permanent image was that of consciousness.

Micah 7
1 Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit.

When man has lost his innocence he becomes withered, hardened and conditioned to internal programs of identity and attachment to what personality calls good and evil. For this man segregation is a way of life.
Jesus is saying woe is me for I have come to find the image of God tightly wound in belief, fear and separation. This is the epitome of ego that has become the master to man rather than the servant.
See the following verses..


2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

3 That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up.

4 The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.

5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.

Here he says trust not in a friend being that anyone who is bound to the identifications of ego will not be thinking clearly but with a mind that is attached to feelings and emotions. Clear discernment cannot be gained by a mind that is emotional, for the emotions will prejudice a mans discernment of any situation, especially reality.
The friend Jesus refers to and that which lies in thy bosom which is referred to as 'she' is the ego, that is conditional love, and the emotions


6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.

This is the culmination of conditional love. Even in ones own house or family a son will turn against a father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother, for a mans enemies are chosen through the ego's attachments to likes and dislikes, beliefs and emotional attachments to self serving ideas that may go against the growth of the whole family. This is self evident in the many beliefs, religions and political ideals that become the cornerstone for the position man takes in defending and fighting for, in and amongst the individual ego identity that is the reality of each other.


7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

Therefore I will look unto the Lord, (Spirit, the Voice of God, The holy spirit, the creator of ego).




The example of Adam and Eve (intellect and emotions) being thrown out of the garden of Eden is based on the development of the ego as the foundation for perceptions of self. When the image becomes the master rather than the servant. When the Hermaphroditic spirit becomes divided by emotional love in its attachment to the earthly senses and one becomes lost to ones own nature.

"Our birth is but a sleep and forgetting: / The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting, / And cometh from afar:
Not an entire forgetfulness, / And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come / From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy! / Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy, / But He beholds the light, and whence it flows,
He sees it in his joy; / The Youth, who daily farther from the east
Must travel, still is Nature's Priest,
And by the vision splendid / Is on his way attended;
At length the Man perceives it die away, / And fade into the light of common day...."

-Wordsworth, "Intimations of Immortality"
rhymer
To answer your questions Lindsay:-

"I have even written one poem which spurs people to support their Church; it does not presume a religion."
Could we see the poem?
**see below and use if you desire.
Churchill?


We’re all concerned when someone’s ill,
especially someone whom we love.
We soothe them with our sympathy;
send them to the doctor with a shove.

But have you ever stopped to think
what you'd do if the CHURCH was ‘ill’?
You could not give it a medical check,
fit a bandage, or give it a pill.

But if it is not working healthily
and we want it to be improved,
its problems must be identified
and eliminated before it’s soothed.

A Church is not just a building;
it’s the Members like me and you!
And herein lies the cause for ‘sickness’;
the faithful can get ‘sick’ too!

So, to make our Church a fitter place
lets point it and touch up the paint.
But, for a really big improvement,
lets change each sinner to a Saint!

Cast out bad habits and behaviour;
bring in care, compassion and love.
Our House will soon be in better order,
when we all give the Devil the shove.

We may not know who are the patients,
or who will ‘doctor and nurse’.
No one will wear a uniform,
it will be harder than writing this verse.

Some of the sick will make good nurses;
the Consultants may be very few.
Support is needed from everyone;
it will come, from God, through you.

Your Church needs you now !!!
Creative commons copyright (written by Portery).

"I do not attend any religious occasions except births, marriages and deaths."
It would be interesting to know: The size of the church; how many attend; the quality of the preaching; if it is thought provoking.
**Size, attendance and quality depends on where the event takes place and the sizes of Families and friends.

"I do not believe there any Truths behind any God(s) or Religion."
What about the role many church leaders, over the centuries, have played in helping bring public, education, hospitals, prison reform, the end of slavery and many other forms of about social justice. In modern times, for example, we have had the work of Martin Luther King, who gave his life to end segregation. Look what Bishop Desmond Tutu has done, and is doing, for his fellow Africans? Is this not a truth, and of great value?
**You are thinking of human actions and money spent. No God is required for those.

"I do know that Gods reside within temples (i.e. behind the forehead)."
Jesus taught this. The metaphor in ancient times was the heart. They had little knowledge of the human anatomy. Carl Jung, and A.N. Whitehead--panentheism (Check Wikipedia)--and others, all spoke of the god with us. To avoid confusion with pantheism, I use unitheism (also in Wikipedia), as in my signature.
**I mean the temple literally. God, if you have one, need only reside in your brain and not exist elsewhere. It is a concept, usually implanted by other people or their writings (my beliefs).

"I do not believe that Gods do not exist."
Why the double negative?
**The definition I use for agnostic is "A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)" - from Wordweb. I cannot say I am agnostic because I do not claim that I cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God. (I don't presently have such true knowledge, but may do so at some time in the future).
Joesus
Continuing from the last post in regards to Micah and the ego...

In Luke 12 He puts it in different terms using similar phrases,

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

In the first two phrases Jesus speaks of baptizing with the fire of spirit. Most think he has come to save them from the trials and tribulations of suppression by the Roman Empire, but he has no intention to save anyone from anything but instead to show people how to save themselves from perceptions of suffering that is bondage of ego or what he also calls hell.


51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

The division he exemplifies is to separate son from the father in attachment, same for mother and daughter etc. He is saying that when the ego is taken from the relationship of family what is seen clearly is the greater relationship of spirit to the manifest. When one extends themselves in the attachment to someone they forget who they are. The Soul does not die when the body dies, and Jesus also made reference to the illusion of suffering that goes with attachment when his Father Joseph died and Mary his mother wrote him to tell of her grief and the news of his passing.
Jesus basically told her in a letter that Joseph was not suffering in death but as she weeps she suffers due to her attachment to the body of Joseph. Once she realizes that she is spirit also they are forever united in the realms of consciousness and that suffering discontinues when one shifts their awareness to that which is permanent rather than temporary.


54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.

56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?


In these last three verses he states that one can tell when the weather is changing but they cannot discern the subtler levels of reality nor recognize truth of God. That, they have left to the imaginings of the Pharisees and have let them decide for them what God is, and what God wants from them.
In delineating roles and accepting blind obedience man suffers the consequence of allowing symbols to be his master rather than he being master over symbols.
One cannot surrender ones self to God without an experience of God and as such in blindness one cannot see other than what imagines, and if what one imagines is anchored to the past memories of conditioning then everything is seen through conditioning of past memories. As one ages the ego becomes more and more of an anchor to the relative world, making it more difficult for one to turn their attention toward the spirit or to God.
To the ego then God is symbolized or referenced in the imaginings of limitations. Even the infinite is bound to ones ability to imagine the infinite, and for one who is blind the imagination only extends itself to blind images of mortality.
Lindsay
Rhymer you write: "No God is required for those (humane actions)."

If by God you mean 'a' God as a being separate and apart from us in the three-dimensional and objective sense, I agree with you. Buddhism is big on humane actions, yet it is a non-theistic religion.

Ah, the challenge of semantics. This is why I prefer using the acronym GØD, which I use in my signature. I feel as close to GØD as I do to each breath I take, or thought that I think. In no way can I think of GØD as some one up, or even out, there.

GØD is at one with all that is;
at one with cosmos, earth, sky, sea.
GØD is at one with time and space
and all pervasive gravity.

GØD's one with faith and hope and love;
At one with knowledge, wisdom, power;
As goodness, order and design,
And present with us hour by hour.

GØD's in each living breath I take,
The root of justice and of peace,
The source of life, of health and wealth,
Producing joys which ne'er will cease.
=========000000000=========
Spring, 2008 Rev. Lindsay G King
==========================
BTW, thanks for your poem.
I have a thread for poetry in:
http://www.pathwayschurch.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=100
Feel free to connect and submit what yours.

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