hi

i'm wanting to find websites, research papers & hear any opinions on how the brain & hand are synced when musicians use musical instruments. someone mentioned to me that, in certain circumstances, hand movement can happen before the brain makes the decision. almost as if the hand has its own independant brain, does anyone know anything about this?

this validates in my mind because when i play an instrument, i feel like i can play faster with more rhythm without thinking, if i start overthinking it just breaks down. you could say this is because i have learnt a piece of music but this happens with music i havent played before or even when improvising.

thanks for any input/pointers

Hmm, I have a similar effect with touch typing on the keyboard. I find that I can type faster and more freely when I don't pronounce the words in my head, however it's rather complex and I usually get out of sync and start typing gibberish after a few words.

Still, I'd be interested if there were studies done on the matter.

you still need to use your brain... you dont use your brain if its a reflex. when you think you dont perform better - i think this means that you are just exerting too much cognitive control from prefrontal cortex.

I can play the skin guitar.

Ahh I am a skin flute player myself, but I only have slightly more than an octave range

erm... lol.

My previous topic on a hand-eye co-ordination game 'guitar hero' may be of interest: http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18375&hl=

Additionally, my 8 year old daughter just completed the song Free Bird (10minutes, 6 minute fast guitar solo) - something which I was well impressed with when I did. It seems that age has no bearing on skill in this game, and younger players could possibly have an advantage over age because of suppleness.

Another interesting thing about it is my daughter failed at the exact same parts I did, and learned them in almost exactly the same way, again age and experience giving no advantage.

In my opinion, your sub consciousness takes over for a few moments.
When you are learning, you are conscious about your acts, then, after a few hours of sleep, your sub consciousness knows how to do better the next time you try to do the same thing you've learned. the more you learn, the more your sub consciousness will act more acurately. eventually it won't require any conscious thinking of the action thus providing "automatic" action.

I'm a bassist studying at berklee. What I believe your talking about is something musicians call muscle memory.

Its all about repetition and practice. With these two things the hand starts to become independent of the mind. Over years and years your hand builds up a repertoire. I say hand because if a good musician has to think about his hand while he's playing a piece, then he hasn't mastered it. The more you play and expand you playing the more your hand remembers things, and when your hand remembers something, it is at your disposal to use any time because its stored in your muscle memory.

Hudzon brought a good point. Typing on you computer keyboard is essentially the same thing. There are differences though.

I'd not only be interested to find out if there have been any studies done as originally asked above, but also if there have been any studies into how the process can be speeded up. I suppose what I'm asking is, how can the muscle memory actions/processes be laid in more efficiently, so that fewer repetitions are required? I'm tentatively investigating the area of EEG neurofeedback, since that's what the sports community use. I'm guessing that the same principles could be applied to playing an instrument.

By practicing very slowly and perfectly with a metronome. If you play fast and sloppy, you can't hone in on the perfect movements quick enough and it will take a long long time, if not forever. Slow and perfect x 4 then increase the speed.

The idea that neurofeedback could be used on musicians with positive results is interesting. Studies of the results of neurofeedback sessions have led me to believe that its very possible.

"..It can be used to improve consontration and focus, to improve cognative function and emotional control.."

Like Trojan said, it's all about the way you practice , and how much you practice. You can create muscle memory faster if you have a strict, effective, practice routine. Improved concentration, cognitive function, and emotional control leads to effective practice.

I find when I play music it's easier to concentrate on the musical output than the muscular input, to achieve the best playing. That alone suggests that complex muscular tasks involve at least some unconscious input. It has to be brain mediated however, typing or playing an instrument are not reflexes.

In my view the point is to get the ability and musical theory so ingraned that there is as little thought as possible. Free flowing improv music is better than a masterpiece that is a struggle to get out.

thanks for interesting replies. there is a concept called Mushin which translates to no-mindedness, which i feel is related!

You guys might be interested in the famous study conducted by Libet (1985). Look it up.

You raise a very important issue that relates to practice. I think that many people ignore, forget, or simply don't know that competent instrumentalists practice - a lot! 'A lot' can mean to the stage of actual physical injury for some. With this amount of practice, the repertoire can near perfection (nothing in this world is 100%), but also as there are similarities between pieces, great competence can be achieved in relatively new pieces quite quickly (seemingly immediately), though these will not reach the repertoire standard without further work.