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Hey Hey
Was there an instant of first awareness, consciousness, mind? Where did this occur in evolution? Was there really a "mind big bang"? Did it happen to one individual organism at first? What was it like for this loner? Was it immediately acted upon by evolution and how was the "advantage" translated into a genetic form for transmission to the next generation. Or did the occurrence happen more than once? Where there different types of awareness, consciousness, mind created, with the present type having the "luck" to be selected and continue?
Joesus
I am the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end being equal, awareness has always been.
Individual identity created within the experience of being a something or a someone, betweeen birth and death only temporarily creates an impression of thought that ignores the Truth.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 02, 2006, 07:07 AM) *

I am the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end being equal, awareness has always been.
Individual identity created within the experience of being a something or a someone, betweeen birth and death only temporarily creates an impression of thought that ignores the Truth.

Oh bugger off back to the other board and let a sensible discussion proceed here.
Joesus
You don't like this approach?
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 02, 2006, 07:12 AM) *

You don't like this approach?

Not an approach, a dogma.
Joesus
Why is it a dogma?
code buttons
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 01, 2006, 10:43 PM) *

Was there an instant of first awareness, consciousness, mind? Where did this occur in evolution? Was there really a "mind big bang"? Did it happen to one individual organism at first? What was it like for this loner? Was it immediately acted upon by evolution and how was the "advantage" translated into a genetic form for transmission to the next generation. Or did the occurrence happen more than once. Where there different types of awareness, consciousness, mind created with the present type having the "luck" to be selected and continue?

Awesome question! You can't possibly be the first person to ask this question! There must be buck-loads of books about this subject!
I can only imagine what that day was like! WOW! I've always wondered about the ancient man's legacy. How much wasted knowledge! All those thousands of manuscripts at the Libraby of Alexandria, turned into ashes by order of the Roman hirarchy; so they could hide their deciet. It would have been a great place to search for an answer to your question.
But back to the subject at hand. There must have been an instant of first awareness, right? Just like there is an instant when you are born, you take your first breath, ect. A point in time.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 01, 2006, 10:43 PM) *

What was it like for this loner?

He/she probably stared at the moon in absolute awe and then wondered. Like in that movie about nearthantals: Quest For Fire. Exellent craft, by the way. Inspirational cinematography.
maximus242
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 01, 2006, 11:43 PM) *

Was there an instant of first awareness, consciousness, mind? Where did this occur in evolution? Was there really a "mind big bang"? Did it happen to one individual organism at first? What was it like for this loner? Was it immediately acted upon by evolution and how was the "advantage" translated into a genetic form for transmission to the next generation. Or did the occurrence happen more than once. Where there different types of awareness, consciousness, mind created with the present type having the "luck" to be selected and continue?


It brings up more than one question Hey Hey, I remember about 4 months ago we tried to tackle this question. The problem was is that we need to define life - what is the definition of life? When do you stop living and become dead? This sounds like an easy question but its really hard when you go deeply into it. Were not talking about medical dead, this is unrevivable, gone dead. This raises a serious issue because for the first 14 days after a medical death, the brain remains active. Also, what about common roaches that can live for up to ten days without their head? Are they living because the body is still active or are they dead because the mind has stopped? Are people in a coma dead?

Once we figure out what life actually is, what is alive and what isnt - then we can answer the questions of consciousness.

I remember you stated that when they are unable to interact with reality they are dead. As you know, reality is an individual experience, so no one ceases to interact with reality, they simply change the reality they choose to interact with. Also, when you dream you are unable to interact with "reality" so if we think logically about that theory - we die every night and are reborn every morning. Sounds proposterous no? But I wonder if death is even possible to achieve?

In order to find out the origins of the mind we need to understand two things - what life is and what conciousness is. I dont believe your question can be answered until those two are.
bluesfreefall
I think Terence McKenna may have been onto something when he said that the feeback loop of consciousness began when primitive man stumbled upon hallucinogenic plants. Consciousness, then, is the awareness of the self as other. Before that it was just get food, avoid pain, stay warm, etc. But at some point the interior dialogue started. Mckenna's view sort of meshes with that of Julian Jaynes in his "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind": that one part of the brain began speaking to the other part and man interpreted "the voice" as god and that's how religions got started. There is also a theory about the birth of the intellect espoused by Rudolph Steiner which involves exogamy, or the marrying outside of one's tribe. His view is that before exogamy, man had a consciousness which streamed together with that of his father, grandfather, etc, so that it was like one mind flowing together, and when blood was mixed due to exogamy, the mind was separated and that isolatedness is the intellect that we know today.
Rick
The Cambrian Explosion: http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Paleobiology/C...anExplosion.htm

Mind was the great natural invention that kicked off the Cambrian Explosion, the sudden divergence of complex life forms that occurred some time after the invention of multi-cellular animals (worm-like organisms) half a billion years ago. That is the theory of Stuart Hameroff. See

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/

That great invention was the neuron. Suddenly, computation for animal control was viable and an arms race of predator-pray strategies began. The puzzling part is why consciousness seems necessary for animal computation (when it's not necessary for machine computation). That puzzle is also called the hard problem of consciousness.
rhymer
I suspect the sequence from 'reflex' to 'work-out' started with categorisation (food, stone, woman, father, etc....) and was then followed by (the advantageous) relationships (dark sky-rain, roar-danger, hunger-hunt).
More complex relationships like "why am I dry when it is raining?-in cave" ie., "something over head keeps me dry!!" may have followed.
I don't mean to imply above that questions were asked, but perhaps neurones started to allow more expansive interconnections (as Rick says).
trojan_libido
McKenna has an extremely valid hypothesis about mushrooms. Hallucinogenic plants tend to lift you out of everyday thought patterns, and so potentially gave rise to the notion of self. The problem with his idea is it conflicts with our current western/scientific theory. The individuals experience has no validity in modern science.

I believe the answer can be found in the duality of the mind, body and our cultures, but its a metaphysical answer so I'll not go into it here.
code buttons
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 03:55 AM) *

I believe the answer can be found in the duality of the mind, body and our cultures, but its a metaphysical answer so I'll not go into it here.

Now we're getting somewhere; but, yea! let's not go there. For the time being.
trojan_libido
Personally I think that categorisation is an aspect of a simpler system that has haunted the human race in every culture - Same/Different. To try and understand how the mind was built is impossible I suppose, since we dont know the path biology took in evolving the mind.

The main purpose of the mind, at least to me, is to process the senses and react in a way that preserves the life of the organism (disregarding suicidal lemmings and the poor male black widow spiders)

It is because of this that I believe the first decision ever made by a proto-brain had to revolve around a duality. How else can the first decision have evolved, and eventually lead to more complex decision making? Pain = bad, Pleasure = good. There is clearly a range of different good and bad things that can happen to an organism, and so this is where same/different is used and categorisation comes into play.

Its also important for an organism to understand the different weights of a decision, and so a sliding scale from + to - is created. For example, an organism is outnumbered by three attackers but has two options for escape. One is to run through bush full of spiky thorns, the other is to go the other way over a rolling lava trail. Now if the organism has encountered both before it is sure to pick the thorns over the lava, if it doesnt it is probably better out of the gene swarm lol.

After these dualities, categories and sliding scales it becomes infinitely more complex and I'm lost even to comment. However I do believe it will have followed a sequential number path, just from my own intuition.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 04:51 PM) *

To try and understand how the mind was built is impossible I suppose,

So let's ignore all difficult problems and we will have an easy life. Impossible - that's your opinion.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 04:51 PM) *

since we dont know the path biology took in evolving the mind.

We don't know how life started but we keep on looking.
Trip like I do
The evolution of the mind is and has been a fragmentary process. It has unfolded in a series of gradual ascents. Each stage divided by an apparent leap of thought over what had previously been considered an apparent uncrossible chasm (from the lowest possible plane to higher planes of thought).
trojan_libido
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:55 AM) *

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 04:51 PM) *

To try and understand how the mind was built is impossible I suppose,

So let's ignore all difficult problems and we will have an easy life. Impossible - that's your opinion.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 04:51 PM) *

since we dont know the path biology took in evolving the mind.

We don't know how life started but we keep on looking.


Oh I'm sorry Hey Hey, seems I forgot to reply in sarcasm. Your tone is both pointless and frustrating to me. There is not a person alive that believes we will one day have ALL the answers. As for ignoring all difficult problems, come on, when did I say that? Get that stick out of your ass.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 08:03 AM) *

Oh I'm sorry Hey Hey, seems I forgot to reply in sarcasm. Your tone is both pointless and frustrating to me. There is not a person alive that believes we will one day have ALL the answers.

My attempt to get you to think rather than sit back ...
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 08:03 AM) *

As for ignoring all difficult problems, come on, when did I say that?

From the above, I thought you understood sarcasm.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 08:03 AM) *

Get that stick out of your ass.

Tending towards abusive - watch it Chris! tongue.gif
trojan_libido
Sorry, but please discuss or add to the points raised instead of picking up on the odd generalisation. That way the discussion can progress.
Trip like I do
(food, stone, woman, father, etc....) -----> perceptual consciousness

(dark sky-rain, roar-danger, hunger-hunt) -----> receptual consciousness

"why am I dry when it is raining?-in cave" ie., "something over head keeps me dry!!" -----> conceptual (self) consciousness
Trip like I do
Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.
Trip like I do
A step from the unconscious to the conscious.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 12:52 PM) *

Sorry, but please discuss or add to the points raised instead of picking up on the odd generalisation. That way the discussion can progress.

We all could say ditto.
Hey Hey
Here's an article of relevance:

Click to view attachment
Hey Hey
And a couple of relevant book reviews:

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Hey Hey
Mind was an accident? Of course, if there were genetic changes that led to mind then these would probably have been mutations and these might be viewed as accidents. But what I mean though, is that other changes for other evolutionary reasons gave rise to mind as a by-product. Then that by-product would have been acted upon by selection and would have evolved from there, similar to the route described by Trip. But this is no new suggestion so .... any evidence, or alternatives (with evidence)?
Lao_Tzu
Why does mind have to have started? Could it not be beginningless and endless?

I realise that the dominant paradigm on this board is that the brain is the thing that produces the mind, but many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter. Not the producer, but the filterer of consciousness for producing the human mind function, perhaps from a kind of Mind-at-Large...

Just a nudge. smile.gif

(And off the topic - I'd like to know whether anyone can verify that fat lovers are better... link)
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

Why does mind have to have started? Could it not be beginningless and endless?

You've been watching What The Bleep! Gulp.
QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

I realise that the dominant paradigm on this board is that the brain is the thing that produces the mind, but many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter.

Who are these scientists and where can I find their papers in peer reviewed scientific journals?
Culture
QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD

Trip - you've been Googled!

But culture's point is really important if we are to conduct discussions with scientific credibility - we should stick to the scientific method.
Trip like I do
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 09:10 AM) *

Here's an article of relevance:

Click to view attachment


.... I can see the validity of the rehearsal thesis, but not all dreams are threatening.
Trip like I do
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 09:43 AM) *

QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD

Trip - you've been Googled!

But culture's point is really important if we are to conduct discussions with scientific credibility - we should stick to the scientific method.


Listen here.... I've been quoting Mr. Bucke for a long time now. If we would have to qoute every bit of information that we acquire, we would basically have to start quoting every word that we utter, for we are but a collection of previously dissected thoughts.... only we now disseminate them in a contemporary format.... so bite me Culture you little fruit loop (oh yeah, thanks for the great link... my little grunt.... oink oink).

Besides I would not dare butcher Buckes articulation as many here so blatantly do butcher previously articulated thoughts. They've become infected and unpure and unworthy of this forum.

I find it rather amusing reading and watching all the fish flounder about here on brainmeta land while I've been abstaining, from one idea to the next. Sometimes some people get so close to what it is they are after and then vear off on another trajectory all together. Some people are already there and don't even realize it, spinning around in circles following dead end trajectories.

Maybe after I write my thesis dissertation (which just so happens to be on the evolution of the conscious mind), I shall return in full force a bring a few of the local rowdies under control, as the BM seniors seem to be losing any sense of mind manipulation (nobody is stearing this rudderless ship) at least not in the right direction.

Then again.... maybe not, as I do not see any here worthy of enlightening and would be but a waste of valuable energy (esp. in today's energy conscious world).
Trip like I do
QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 09:30 AM) *

many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter.


Yes..... the human brain evolving to tune into previously unaccessible frequencies.

Collecting new waves/particles of information.
Trip like I do
..... growth, development, evolution, or whatever we choose to call it, has always gone on, is going on now, and will always go on. New faculties will from time to time arise in the mind as they have in the past.....

Culture, be a dear and find me a source for this, thanks in advance.
Culture

QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD


QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM) *

Listen here.... I've been quoting Mr. Bucke for a long time now. If we would have to qoute every bit of information that we acquire, we would basically have to start quoting every word that we utter, for we are but a collection of previously dissected thoughts.... only we now disseminate them in a contemporary format.... so bite me Culture you little fruit loop (oh yeah, thanks for the great link... my little grunt.... oink oink).


Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.


QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM) *


Besides I would not dare butcher Buckes articulation as many here so blatantly do butcher previously articulated thoughts. They've become infected and unpure and unworthy of this forum.

I find it rather amusing reading and watching all the fish flounder about here on brainmeta land while I've been abstaining, from one idea to the next. Sometimes some people get so close to what it is they are after and then vear off on another trajectory all together. Some people are already there and don't even realize it, spinning around in circles following dead end trajectories.

Maybe after I write my thesis dissertation (which just so happens to be on the evolution of the conscious mind), I shall return in full force a bring a few of the local rowdies under control, as the BM seniors seem to be losing any sense of mind manipulation (nobody is stearing this rudderless ship) at least not in the right direction.

Then again.... maybe not, as I do not see any here worthy of enlightening and would be but a waste of valuable energy (esp. in today's energy conscious world).


I agree with you. It has become a pssing contest. So why dont you step in? Especially considering that you're a specialist in the evolution of the conscious mind. I am really keen to hear what your own findings are and have little interest in reading posts that are just copied and pasted. The idea of a forum is to discuss/debate and I am sure that you are more than capable of holding your own.

To reiterate -> if the post is copied from other sites you should post the link to avoid confusion and at the same time share resources with others.
Trip like I do
For example, the human brain was originally very basic. Called the reptilian brain, it consisted mainly of the brain stem and it was built to support strong survival instincts. After many years, the mammalian brain, which among other things was geared to develop emotions, emerged. It took a few million years for the neo-cortex, or the thinking brain to develop. This brain is capable of many of our day-to-day functions such as performing mathematical calculations and reasoning.

I'll give you this one..... RTB.
Trip like I do
QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 10:55 AM) *

QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD


QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM) *

Listen here.... I've been quoting Mr. Bucke for a long time now. If we would have to qoute every bit of information that we acquire, we would basically have to start quoting every word that we utter, for we are but a collection of previously dissected thoughts.... only we now disseminate them in a contemporary format.... so bite me Culture you little fruit loop (oh yeah, thanks for the great link... my little grunt.... oink oink).


Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.


QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM) *


Besides I would not dare butcher Buckes articulation as many here so blatantly do butcher previously articulated thoughts. They've become infected and unpure and unworthy of this forum.

I find it rather amusing reading and watching all the fish flounder about here on brainmeta land while I've been abstaining, from one idea to the next. Sometimes some people get so close to what it is they are after and then vear off on another trajectory all together. Some people are already there and don't even realize it, spinning around in circles following dead end trajectories.

Maybe after I write my thesis dissertation (which just so happens to be on the evolution of the conscious mind), I shall return in full force a bring a few of the local rowdies under control, as the BM seniors seem to be losing any sense of mind manipulation (nobody is stearing this rudderless ship) at least not in the right direction.

Then again.... maybe not, as I do not see any here worthy of enlightening and would be but a waste of valuable energy (esp. in today's energy conscious world).


So why dont you step in?


Not yet.... just guerilla styling it right now.... speaking in tongues. When you arrive things will simplify. So many echoes.
Trip like I do

[/quote]

Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.

[/quote]

When does it stop belonging to others and when does it become our own?
trojan_libido
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:20 PM) *

Then that by-product would have been acted upon by selection


If the mind is a by-product of the biology, then would it have evolved using natural selection in a non physical way (thoughts, ideas, language)?

I believe this is a perfectly sensible approach and creates a link between the evolution of biology, the mind and the memes of language. It also requires only a single solution that is repeated on all levels, something that surely follows the fractal nature of reality.

As for the brain being a reciever rather than a producer of consciousness, it seems this is a definite possibility given my own experience:

http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15632

The frequencies we are currently able to pickup could be precursors for biological evolution that allow us to pickup even higher frequencies.
Culture
[quote name='Trip like I do' date='Dec 06, 2006, 08:17 AM' post='72940']
[/quote]

Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.

[/quote]

When does it stop belonging to others and when does it become our own?
[/quote]

No problem with where youre going with this :-)
The only problem I have is with plagiarism. Although not your intention, it could be construed as that by others on the forum and in so doing lose credibility.
Trip like I do
[/quote]
The frequencies we are currently able to pickup could be precursors for biological evolution that allow us to pickup even higher frequencies.
[/quote]
Now your talking..... but things do become simplified in higher dimensions, not more convoluted.
Trip like I do
[quote name='Culture' date='Dec 06, 2006, 11:42 AM' post='72947']
[quote name='Trip like I do' date='Dec 06, 2006, 08:17 AM' post='72940']
[/quote]

Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.

[/quote]

When does it stop belonging to others and when does it become our own?
[/quote]

No problem with where youre going with this :-)
The only problem I have is with plagiarism. Although not your intention, it could be construed as that by others on the forum and in so doing lose credibility.
[/quote]
We are all bloody plagarists, can you not see`this, at the most basic level?
code buttons
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 08:21 AM) *

... then would it have evolved using natural selection in a non physical way (thoughts, ideas, language)?
I believe this is a perfectly sensible approach and creates a link between the evolution of biology, the mind and the memes of language. It also requires only a single solution that is repeated on all levels, something that surely follows the fractal nature of reality.

Hmm! Very interesting approach, and appealing too. Go on, please.
Lao_Tzu
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 04:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

Why does mind have to have started? Could it not be beginningless and endless?

You've been watching What The Bleep! Gulp.

Well, yes, I have seen it... but it didn't inspire that comment. I just thought that I would question the assumption underlying the topic - that something must have a start.

But if you'd rather not engage with that, that's okay.

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 04:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

I realise that the dominant paradigm on this board is that the brain is the thing that produces the mind, but many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter.

Who are these scientists and where can I find their papers in peer reviewed scientific journals?

I don't actually know... I don't know where to find papers or peer-reviewed scientific journals, and suchlike. I really just wanted to make mention of the idea, which I first read about in Aldous Huxley's Doors of Perception... he quoted "eminent Cambridge philosopher, Dr. C. D. Broad":

"...that we should do well to consider much more seriously than we have hitherto been inclined to do the type of theory which Bergson put forward in connection with memory and sense perception. The suggestion is that the function of the brain and nervous system and sense organs is in the main eliminative and not productive.

Each person is at each moment capable of remembering all that has ever happened to him and of perceiving everything that is happening everywhere in the universe. The function of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful."


Of course, most of that goes a bit too far for the current paradigm. But for all that I'm on about the first and second sentences will suffice.

If you're after present-day scientists, the name that comes to mind is Rupert Sheldrake.... so here are a few links you might find interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Experim...hange_the_World
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/books/sheldrake.htm
http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies...imes060907.html
trojan_libido
I'm glad something I said has not been immediately shot down, because I can only speak from my own experiences and intuition. I'd appreciate any help in understanding how the biology, mind and culture may be following a fractal pattern. I'll waffle on regardless.

The mutations in the biology of the brain may have allowed simple processes to be remembered and recalled. Again I go back to the polarity of experience here - once a pattern is recognised, it is utilised in problem solving over and over. Whether thats "Fire hurts", "Apples good" or "Stick is a weapon", its the same.

We all know repeated physical activity leads to habit in a person/organism (walking, driving, writing, speaking, addictions). The mind learning is a similar process, repeated ideas become hard wired in the brain and allow what were once hard concepts to be reused quickly and in abstract ways. I'm sure this pretty good evidence that the processes that have shaped our bodies and behaviour are also present in the way we construct ideas to solve problems.

The popularity of memés and memeplexes is down to the fact we can apply the same evolving traits to
language. The main problem with the theory is that it doesnt seem to add anything of use to the description of evolving language, we could simply use terms such as catchphrase, saying, song, lyric, virus etc. But I think a rewording of these "categories" of thought expression can only force people to
redevelop meanings to the words. These meanings are then free from past association and can be used in a purely theoretical way. This may then lead to breakthroughs in memé theory which if found to be the truth, will cause huge amounts of heated debate about the nature of reality.

I have no doubt that our realities are fractal and recursive, but at this level of complexity its <i>almost</i> impossible to see from our perspective. I guess without the ego, or in a state of enlightenment, maybe more processes can be understood.
Hey Hey
Language is not inherited. Genes that provide the potential for language learning and its physical manifestation are inherited.

Memes could be the genes of machines. As software or hardware information they could be part of a replicating system's inheritance. (Copy errors would be analogous to mutations). If one believes that the manipulation of information is all that is required to create mind, then machines could easily be envisaged as having mind.

Is language necessary for mind? The language of words is not. How many facilitators of language (words, pictures, noises etc) could we remove to be sure that there was no language in an organism, prior to determining if there was still mind? But even lower organisms use chemical signals (elementary communication/language?). Where did mind start?

(An aside: Of course, there is no reason why we could not imagine building biological machines in the future. With their DNA and cells they could be so close to humans that they could have mind. In fact they could be potentially indistinguishable from humans. We might want to build them lacking the potential for mind, of course, so we could enslave them).
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 07, 2006, 09:44 AM) *

If you're after present-day scientists, the name that comes to mind is Rupert Sheldrake.... so here are a few links you might find interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Experim...hange_the_World
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/books/sheldrake.htm
http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies...imes060907.html

Thanks, but no thanks. His early scientific work was fine but then turned into a bit of a David Icke (http://www.davidicke.com/icke/).

But the brain as a receiver! Receiving what from whom? What about transmitting? If it's like telepathy, I'd rather read more David Icke (not really) or more on telecom chip implants - now that's worth investigating further!
trojan_libido
Well there is a lot of frequencies in the natural world and our mind is created from varying frequencies within the brain. From what is fairly straight forward, the stars that are the nucleus of our solar system and that fertilised our planet. We don't have to jump to the conclusion that Aliens are beaming consciousness into our heads for their own amusement.

Its pretty clear to me that the process that created the cosmos also ushered in biological life - to think otherwise is pretty arrogant in my opinion. Of course it could be God moving in mysterious ways lol </sarcasm>.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 07, 2006, 02:41 PM) *

Well there is a lot of frequencies in the natural world and our mind is created from varying frequencies within the brain. From what is fairly straight forward, the stars that are the nucleus of our solar system and that fertilised our planet. We don't have to jump to the conclusion that Aliens are beaming consciousness into our heads for their own amusement.

Frequencies are properties of something, not anything in themselves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency

So what you say is no help really.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 07, 2006, 02:41 PM) *

Its pretty clear to me that the process that created the cosmos also ushered in biological life - to think otherwise is pretty arrogant in my opinion.

No dispute here.
trojan_libido
Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta Brain Waves, electrical frequencies? I'm not a scientist, mathematician or a professional of any academic area, only an interested soul trying to convey a little meaning. You understood what I meant and yet poked me with a metaphorical stick. sigh.
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