Trip like I do
Dec 01, 2004, 11:34 AM
I vote Jeb Bush in 2008.
Trip like I do
Dec 01, 2004, 11:38 AM
The new Kennedy's?
Trip like I do
Dec 01, 2004, 06:42 PM
How do all you Yanks out there feel about another Bush in the Whitehouse for a potential 8 years beginning in 2008?
Dan
Dec 01, 2004, 07:04 PM
it's not going to happen
Trip like I do
Dec 01, 2004, 10:08 PM
We can pray though, can't we?
Rick
Dec 02, 2004, 08:23 AM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Dec 01, 08:04 PM) |
| it's not going to happen |
What makes you so sure?
It's not a matter of being able to pray, Trip, it's about our children being forced to pray, in public schools, to the god chosen for us by the tyrants currently in power. It's about the loss of our freedoms.
Dan
Dec 02, 2004, 11:04 AM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 02, 08:23 AM) |
| What makes you so sure? |
the same 'spidey sense' that told me W would get another term
Rick
Dec 02, 2004, 11:38 AM
I didn't think you believed in any supernatural agency. I hope you're right.
Dan
Dec 02, 2004, 11:41 AM
supernatural agency? I like to think of it as instinct. Maybe it's a measure of as-of-yet scientifically-invisible 'collective' mind, but that wouldn't be supernatural either.
Rick
Dec 02, 2004, 11:45 AM
I don't know of any evidence for any kind of mind not supported by a brain somewhere.
Dan
Dec 02, 2004, 11:56 AM
exactly. Therefore, if such a 'mind' exists, there must be as-of-yet-unrecognized physical structure associated with it. No magic, no 'supernaturality'. Just currently incomplete knowledge of physical structure.
Rick
Dec 02, 2004, 12:00 PM
Physical structure has mass, charge, or other physical properties. How can such a "thing" exist yet be undetected?
Dan
Dec 02, 2004, 12:07 PM
are you implying that all detectible physical structure ought to have already been detected? would not the application of such logic 100 years ago have denied the existence of structure that we have only recently discovered?
Rick
Dec 02, 2004, 12:15 PM
Perhaps "ought" is the right word. If undetected physical structure exists, then physics is in for some more major revolutions eventually. Right now the only undetected physical structure that is theorized to exist is gravity waves.
Do you have some hypothesis as to difficult-to-detect physical structure that can interact with our brains in difficult-to-detect ways? If so, please answer:
1. How did it evolve or originate.
2. How does it avoid detection, yet still influence us significantly?
3. What energy source maintains its organization?
4. Does it obey the laws of thermodynamics?
Dan
Dec 02, 2004, 12:33 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 02, 12:15 PM) |
| Right now the only undetected physical structure that is theorized to exist is gravity waves. |
that's not true. 'gravity waves' are not a structure, they are an effect. the structure supporting the effect is 'spacetime', and the assumption is that 'spacetime' curvature (gravity) propagates at a finite velocity and thus must form 'wavefronts'.
also, there are other physical structures that are hypothesized to exist but remain unproven such as the 'higgs' field and the strings of string theory.
Rick
Dec 02, 2004, 12:37 PM
So now we're back to "ether" supporting propagation, eh? Right now it's not completely clear that spacetime is something that has existence; it may be more like the relationships among things that do exist.
I guess we need a range of hypothetical weakness from "pretty sure it might be" to "really out there in left field."
Kahekili
Dec 02, 2004, 01:34 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 02, 12:37 PM) |
So now we're back to "ether" supporting propagation, eh? Right now it's not completely clear that spacetime is something that has existence; it may be more like the relationships among things that do exist.
I guess we need a range of hypothetical weakness from "pretty sure it might be" to "really out there in left field." |
It's rare to find something that pushes me into so deep introspection as when I read this. Congratulations! And thanks.
Relationships ... a large part of my life is sorting out and teaching people to sort out "relationship bonds" - the "stuff" that holds people in relationships even when there are real advantages to leaving.
The "stuff" holding humans together in relationships is really dark matter. Bonds of guilt and hate seem to be much more common - and much more sticky - than bonds of love and joy. And worse, it seems that we do not allow ourselves to know this "stuff" - just knowing it will change the relationships it holds together.
Back to your post - the range of hypothetical ability is popularly called "chance" and more properly called "sigificance".
Trip like I do
Dec 02, 2004, 02:34 PM
So, 1 vote NO, 2 votes YES, 1 vote undecided.
Dan
Dec 02, 2004, 02:38 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 02, 12:37 PM) |
| So now we're back to "ether" supporting propagation, eh? |
yes, this is the basic premise of general relativity that 'spacetime' is the replacement aether to the earlier 'mechanical' aether.
| QUOTE |
| Right now it's not completely clear that spacetime is something that has existence; it may be more like the relationships among things that do exist. |
yes, and those 'things that do exist' would be another kind of aether.
| QUOTE |
| I guess we need a range of hypothetical weakness from "pretty sure it might be" to "really out there in left field." |
Such a range should exists in the mind of a person who is concerned with such questions. I, for example, hold string theory to be 'way out in left field' while I hold the idea of the cosmos as finite and unbounded to be 'pretty sure it might be'.
Trip like I do
Dec 02, 2004, 02:48 PM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Dec 02, 05:38 PM) |
| QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 02, 12:37 PM) | | So now we're back to "ether" supporting propagation, eh? |
yes, this is the basic premise of general relativity that 'spacetime' is the replacement aether to the earlier 'mechanical' aether.
| QUOTE | | Right now it's not completely clear that spacetime is something that has existence; it may be more like the relationships among things that do exist. |
yes, and those 'things that do exist' would be another kind of aether.
| QUOTE | | I guess we need a range of hypothetical weakness from "pretty sure it might be" to "really out there in left field." |
Such a range should exists in the mind of a person who is concerned with such questions. I, for example, hold string theory to be 'way out in left field' while I hold the idea of the cosmos as finite and unbounded to be 'pretty sure it might be'.
|
Do you believe it to be a multi-dimensional universe within universe within.. and so on? That we arose out of the original primordial bubble in the fabric of space-time and are just one tiny insignificant universe within other universes?
And, what does this have anything to do with J.B. for Prez in '08?
Rick
Dec 02, 2004, 03:30 PM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Dec 02, 03:38 PM) |
| ... I hold the idea of the cosmos as finite and unbounded to be 'pretty sure it might be'. |
We discussed this before and I have a new argument why infinite cosmos might be good. An infinite mass-energy universe might be able to avoid eventual heat death. There is no new evidence of the reality of this possibility, just a reason to be more wishful in our thinking.
Rick
Dec 02, 2004, 03:32 PM
| QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Dec 02, 03:48 PM) |
| And, what does this have anything to do with J.B. for Prez in '08? |
Scroll back up and you will see that Dan's extra sensory perception as to the outcome of the '08 election inspired this philosophical detour into how we can know things to be true or not.
Dan
Dec 02, 2004, 04:41 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 02, 03:30 PM) |
| ... I have a new argument why infinite cosmos might be good. An infinite mass-energy universe might be able to avoid eventual heat death. |
even if it is infinitely extended, it still cannot avoid an 'entropy death' given enough time.
Dan
Dec 02, 2004, 04:48 PM
| QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Dec 02, 02:48 PM) |
| Do you believe it to be a multi-dimensional universe within universe within.. and so on? That we arose out of the original primordial bubble in the fabric of space-time and are just one tiny insignificant universe within other universes? |
I don't believe in an infinite nesting of 'universes'
Trip like I do
Dec 02, 2004, 06:00 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 02, 06:30 PM) |
| QUOTE (Dan @ Dec 02, 03:38 PM) | | ... I hold the idea of the cosmos as finite and unbounded to be 'pretty sure it might be'. |
We discussed this before and I have a new argument why infinite cosmos might be good. An infinite mass-energy universe might be able to avoid eventual heat death. There is no new evidence of the reality of this possibility, just a reason to be more wishful in our thinking.
|
As our bubble expands to the max it starts to contract into a massive black hole and eventually a singularity, which on the other side exists another dimension where the process repeats (history repeats it's cyclation) after which all that exists where the previous dimension was is a vaporous gas emitted into the fabric of spacetime.
Theoretically of course, yet to be proven, but is all, I believe beeing worked on in seperate factions all simultaneously.
Unfortionally not instantaneosly/at the speed of light/a quantum leap ahead.
Trip like I do
Dec 02, 2004, 07:13 PM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Dec 02, 02:04 PM) |
| QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 02, 08:23 AM) | | What makes you so sure? |
the same 'spidey sense' that told me W would get another term
|
Are you sure that you are not a 'string' theorist.
Trip like I do
Dec 02, 2004, 07:20 PM
| QUOTE (Kahekili @ Dec 02, 04:34 PM) |
Relationships ... a large part of my life is sorting out and teaching people to sort out "relationship bonds" - the "stuff" that holds people in relationships even when there are real advantages to leaving.
The "stuff" holding humans together in relationships is really dark matter. Bonds of guilt and hate seem to be much more common - and much more sticky - than bonds of love and joy. And worse, it seems that we do not allow ourselves to know this "stuff" - just knowing it will change the relationships it holds together. |
This requires/deserves elaboration.
Started making so many paralles as I read this.
Kahekili
Dec 03, 2004, 12:38 AM
| QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Dec 02, 07:20 PM) |
| QUOTE (Kahekili @ Dec 02, 04:34 PM) | The "stuff" holding humans together in relationships is really dark matter. Bonds of guilt and hate seem to be much more common - and much more sticky - than bonds of love and joy. And worse, it seems that we do not allow ourselves to know this "stuff" - just knowing it will change the relationships it holds together. |
This requires/deserves elaboration.
Started making so many paralles as I read this.
|
The Pandora's box of human bonding delves into paradox and often confusion. What attracts us to people is rarely what motivates us to stay with them. And just knowing what really bonds us can threaten our relationships.
A woman who stays with an immature male partner may have bonded to him as a mother bonds to a son - and be unable to leave him despite his ignorance or abuse. The burden of guilt of a mother abandoning a child would prevent this. If the woman becomes aware of this bond, she may (quickly) leave.
This topic opens wide the nature of mental health, yet is hardly addressed in psychology or psychotherapy.
(I now leave to teach a group of therapists how to replace relationship bonds.)
See www.soulwork.net\sw_articles_eng\bonds.htm for more about this very rich topic.
I am interested in your thoughts about how our observations of cosmic relationships might affect those relationships.
Trip like I do
Dec 04, 2004, 10:34 AM
Dark matter is also the main underlying component in the universe that acts, as well, as a sort of cosmic superglue.
Trip like I do
Dec 06, 2004, 04:08 PM
What kind of relationship do you perceive happening now?
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