Jung maintained that no one approach is suitable for everyone. The individual who has had difficulty in accepting the sexual and aggressive urges of life may well require a Freudian interprtation. But for others, or at different stages in development, the Freudian understanding may not be sufficiently comprehensive.

In classical Freudian psychoanalysis, the analyst remains detached and reveals few personal feelings and reactions in order to facilitate the transference, wheras the jungian analyst is more self-disclosing.

Therapy is a dialectical procedure, a dialogue between doctor and patient, conscious and unconscious. Analyst and patient sit facing each other and the Jungian analyst also sees patients far less frequently than the Freudian.

During the early stages of treatment, there is a need for confession, then accompanied by cathartic emotional release.

Projection and transference play an important role in Jungian analysis, where not only significant person's from the patient's past are recognized but also archetypal images are projected onto the analyst.

Jung also viewed the sexual components of the transference as symbolic efforts on the patient's part to reach a higher integration of personality.

Jung viewed dreams as having a prospective function - the dream represents an effort by the person to prepare for future events. Dreams also have compensatory function - they are efforts to complement the patient's conscious side and speak for the unconscious.

Jung used amplification in interpreting dreams. In amplification, one focuses repeadetly on the element and gives multiple associations to it. The dream is taken exactly as it is with no precise effort to distinguish between manifest and latent contents.. The therapist joins the patient in efforts to interpret the dream, adding personal associations and frequently refering to mythology, fairy tales, and the like in order to extend the dream's meaning. Jung concentrated on a series of dreams. Analysis of a series of dreams unfolds the inner life of the patient, which is taken as a guide to true-life meanings for the patient.

As a therapist, Jung also valued the use of active imagination as a means of facilitating self-understanding and the use of artistic production by the patient. He encouraged his patients to draw, sculpt, paint, or develop some other art form as a means to listening to their inner depths. In all of this, he emphasized obedience to the unfolding inner life as the appropriate, ethical fulfillment of one's humanity.

I love Carl Jung and his theories of the Collective Unconscious and Archetypes and the Spiritual problems of Modern Man, and I personally think that in many ways he surpassed Freud ... Yet, as Oscar Wilde wisely stated, "What was good enough for our fathers is not good enough for us". Now we have a more advanced knowledge and understanding of many things; now we have Evolutionary Psychology and Evolutionary Philosophy... Nowadays it´s not enough to understand who we are, but also what we can be.

....yes, the multi-dimensional potentialities that are to be found in the wave-functions we consciously collapse.

....what we are becoming and what we may become, but only through remembering the past can we transcend linearality and eradicate cyclations, and hence not be mechanized to repeat the past and past mistakes (although everything past is not always a negative) of our forefathers.

Trip, I see you now have Einstein as your avatar. Coincidentally, I dreamed last night that I was arguing physics with Einstein, and winning! Then I woke up and realized I was full of shit.

lol....whose Einstein, that's me, seriously, would I try to trip you Rick?

I wonder....would you beat him at chess?

Einstein wasn't known as a chess player, so yeah, probably.

"Jung viewed dreams as having a prospective function - the dream represents an effort by the person to prepare for future events. Dreams also have compensatory function - they are efforts to complement the patient's conscious side and speak for the unconscious."

....a probability as opposed to a potentiality?

We'll never know.

....could you not create a computer with the brain power of einstein that could formulate moves mathematically, to play you a match?

....yes, things have become extremely amplified in today's world of echoes.

Hey Rick, I guess Coke is it!

I already have. See my Homeostatic Chess Player applet, or Google 'chess applet'.

[quote name='Trip like I do' date='May 30, 06:14 PM' post='65433'][/quote]
Hey Rick, I guess Coke is it!
[/quote]
"The real thing" as they say. Back in the good old days Coke was flavored with the extract of coca leaves.

Internally? Externally? All over? Or a combination of all?

"FOS" is an Americanism for being completely wrong or clueless.

IMHO, Jung--a preacher's kid, BTW, was more of a pneumatologist than a psychologist. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatology
In the early 1960's I started giving a series of lectures on the subject. I repeated the series, several times a year, for the rest of my ministry (1953 to 1994). I used Jung's ideas, frequently.

While Jung's justification for dream analysis is convincing, ie, dreams are the purest manifestation of our unconscious containing inherited archaic symbols, I personally find dream interpretation a daunting task, fraught with the dangers of post-hoc endeavours in a desperate attempt to attach significant meaning to any particular dream. Recall is one problem, another is the requirement of having some relatively in-depth knowledge of mythology and symbols. All that may be solved by approaching a qualified Jungian psychologist (or a historian/theologian for that matter), although such an approach might not be practicable in modern times, where hectic lifestyles would not allow the extravagance (and expense!) of building the necessary patient/doctor relationship that is the hallmark of Jungian psychology.

I have tried interpreting my own dreams, which, as I recall, consist largely of personal experiences such as recent events of a particular day, the people in my life, things I have read/seen etc, although those experiences are fragmented and distorted, and driven by 'themes' or 'storylines', in which the main characters are people I know. In all, dreams, to a large extent, reflect my personal fears and aspirations, which is, according to Freud, a receptacle for repressed desires/fears, ie, the personal unconscious in Jungian terminology. This theory corresponds well to my situation. In that respect, I can relate more to Freud than Jung (in a practical sense).

I would like to get acquainted with the '2 million year old man' within all of us, but it appears that it is neither practical, since that requires sound knowledge of mythology (which in turn requires time/effort in amassing that knowledge), nor safe (Jung was afflicted with severe psychosis in confronting his unconscious, and has warned against unsupervised attempts) to do so without expert guidance. Nevertheless, i share your view that Jung was a brilliant man- his theories have given me much insight into the inner workings of man.

Dreams are very important in understanding of the Unconscious -- personal and collective, in making our unconscious conscious.
Freud stated that the whole of psychoanalytic theory was built up on the perception of the resistance exerted by the patient when he tried to make him conscious of his unconscious.
Unriddling or recognizing dream visions and, thus, gaining full control over them, is very important in shamanism, in dream journeys of initiation. The dream visions must be understood and described in words -- singing them or retelling them.
As you see, it is a very ancient tradition on the path of self-realization.

Guest: IMHO, you make some very important points, here. Tell us more of what you know about dreams.

HI, Lindsay !

Shamanic methods of working with dreams -- being conscious and awake while dreaming (lucid dreaming)-- are receiving increased attention.

Here´s a list of some books and websites:

"Shamanism: archaic techniques of ecstasy", Mircea Eliade
"Dreamtime and inner space: the world of the shaman", Holger Kalweit
"Dream wisdom and shaman journeys", Rosalind Powell, Laura J. Watts, Will Adcock
Power of the Shaman -- http://www.geocities.com/the_wanderling/how.html
Accounts of extraordinary shamanic dream journeys -- http://www.parallelperception.com/dreamaccounts.html
Dreams Book List -- http://www.newvision-psychic.com/bookshelf/dreams.html

Thanks for the links!! Shamanism and waking dreams seem pretty interesting concepts. I've read elsewhere that most Shamans slip into trances/dream-like states with the help of certain drugs such as coca leaves, marijuana and salvia plants, and while in that state communicate with other-world entities. It'll be great to learn how to enter dream-states without the aid of sleep or hallucinogens- prolly something similiar to meditation? Well I'll have a look at the links to find out. Thanks again

A perfect shaman -- a warrior, a teacher, a medicine wo/man, and a prophet ...
Shaman is empty of her/himself and full of Infinity.
Inner silence is the state from which everything stems in shaman -- in this state one functions from the original, primordial state of being; in this state perception does not depend on senses.
What is at work is another faculty that man has, the faculty that makes him a magical being.
Shamans call it stopping the world, when one returns to one´s true nature. It is also called total freedom, when one becomes capable of feats ...
Shaman has only one point of reference -- Infinity. Unless one is in a sublime state, Infinity will not touch her/him.

Seeing from inner silence, acting from inner silence ...

Thus giving rise to 2 extremes- rationality over primordialism and vice versa. Modernity robs man of his roots, but at the same time offers civilisation and logic, to return to our roots is to discard all that we have nurtured and cultivated over the centuries- a return to barbarism some might say. Shamanism can be a positive point of reference, only if we manage to reconcile past with present, and civilisation with primordialism. As evidenced by various case studies undertaken by Jung himself, exploring the unconscious can lead to a treacherous path- many dangers such as terrible psychosis await those who dare venture. Best to stay clear unless expert guidance is at hand.

Rick, I may have already told you about the British expression, "bumph". If so, excuse the repeat.
The American spelling is "b-u-m-f". I came across it, recently. It was in a column in the National Post, Canada. I think it means something that is as useless as used tolietpaper.
It is a useful term for those who want to say that something is FOS, but who hold back because they do not wish to offend sensitive ears. Instead of using, FOS, we can now say, FOBumph.

jmg,
Barbarism is the ignorance of our true nature and of our interconnectedness and unity with all.
Our civilization is barbaric in the sense that it is not rooted in wisdom and a deep understanding of the laws of nature.

Picture is link

From that figurative perspective, I would have to agree. Although much could be debated about over the 'true nature' of humanity- we have a long list of historical (and present) examples that shed light on our true nature- power lust, greed etc, human rights abuses over the continents (eg China, Africa, Cambodia). Paradoxically we come to a point where embracing our true nature is to stare the purest evil in the eye.

To clarify my previous post, while fully agreeing with your reply that we have lost touch of our roots, I meant barbarism in the literal sense, in which homo sapiens are guided not by conscious rationality but primordial instincts (which flows from the all-important collective unconscious). Therefore it must follow that a return to such states of mind carries with it consequences, because to be led purely by the unconscious excludes any form of rationality.

It must also be borne in mind that civilisation and it's contents, ie, the ideologies that gave rise to civilised behaviour, eg, human rights, concern for others and other humanitarian causes stem from logical/rational thought (notably during the Enlightment period circa close of 18th Century- see Voltaire, Montesquieu et al) therefore civilisation/rationality is not all unmeritous and barbaric- before this period, it was not uncommon for less enlightened (and therefore less rational and on a more unconscious level) monarchs to order the quartering of troops and employ other such horrendous displays of 'justice'.

Having said that, I would readily agree that we have no such lack of 'barbarism' (albeit in other forms) in contemporary times- however, I believe that modern man fares slightly better than primitive man (bringing into play this thread's theme of barbarism vs. civilisation) in the sense that at the very least, we have created such ideas as human rights and other humanitarian ideologies- these are probably absent in the tribes where the Shamans belong- tribal custom (which in all likelihood have been influenced by Shamanistic visions) guides social behaviour, not all of which accord to what we perceive as fair and just. Head-hunting, the harsh treatment of females, brutal corporeal punishments are but a few possible examples of the social environment in which the Shaman plays a crucial role.

In all, my opinion is that we should not prefer one extreme over the other, ie, primodialism over civilisation/past over presentfuture, but rather seek their integration so that we better understand ouselves- man is not free from shadows, even the most highly respected Shaman has his personal demons to exorcise (or rather, according to Jung, acknowledge and confront).

Warm greetings, jmg!
Are You familiar with the symbolism of Ouroboros ?
Carl Jung saw the ouroboros as an archetype and a symbol for the integration and assimilation of the opposite, i.e. of the shadow.
It is timeless wisdom which is the essence of shamanism or any ancient cosmovision.

I've not come across the Ouroboro symbol- is it similar or synonymous to the mandala? The latter performs a similar function, ie, the integration of the personal unconscious (the shadow) and the collective unconscious (as manifested by archetypes such as the anima/animus etc), and represents the Self. It would be great if you could elaborate on the Ouroboros- thanks for sharing!!

At http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/jung.html
Dr. C. George Boeree quotes Jung, whose thinking went beyond that of animal and experimental psychology

I love the above Jungian quote. In my humble opinion, it confirms a point that I have already made elsewhere: Jung was more of a pneumatologist--that is, a student of the human spirit--than he was a psychiatrist beholden to clinical psychology. He practiced what I call pneumatherapy, not psychotherapy.

Were he with us today, I feel certain that Jung would agree with the following negative assessment of the way psychiatry is used in our time. For example, the way it is abused in our criminal courts to excuse the totally unacceptable and deliberate behaviour of sexual criminals. To back up this point, I quote from a letter, page A21, in the current edition (June 24, 2006) of the National Post. The story is about a certain RB who is considered "not guilty of a horrific sexual assault on a 13-year old girl"--the assault did happen--because he suffered from a "post-traumatic stress disorder" and was totally unaware of what he was doing.

IN his letter, Heinz Klatt, professor emeritus of psychopathology, London, Ontario, wrote that "It is legitimate to ask whether psychiatry does more harm than good. To make up for the enormous damage, foolishness and injustice displayed in this case, psychiatry has to do a lot of good to justify its embarassing existence." He went to argue that "too many crimes are being whitewashed by calling them psychiatric disorders."

A fellow psychiatrist, Dr. Joseph Berger, from Toronto added: "Once again psychiatry has been embarrased as a profession..." He then lists a number of inappropriate "diagnostic labels" excusing human behaviour. He concludes with the comment that "...the behaviour of some of our colleagues continue to sadden us."

It seems that much modern psychiatry has failed to live up to its full potential because many psychiatrists do not understand that human beings are more than just clever animals with the ability to talk. Deep down we are spiritual beings who need to be morally and ethically challenged to be responsible for our thoughts words and deeds.

To understand the point being made, here, we need to understand some basic Greek words. Influenced by Sanskrit and other eastern languages, Greek had a great impact on Latin and, consequently, on the major European languages.

In Greek, especially in New testament Greek--see Paul's letter to the Thessalonians (1 Thess. 5:23)--the point is made that human beings do have something in common with animals. That is, humans and animals do have physical bodies and minds. The Greek word for body is soma. From it modern medicine gets the adjective, somatic. A somatic disease is one that is strictly physical in nature. For example, a physical wound, or a broken limb, is a somatic condition.

PSYCHOSOMATIC CONDITIONS
However, in the 1930's, western researchers finally woke up to the fact that not all conditions have a strictly phycical cause. What goes on in the mind--the Greek for which is psyche--can trigger physical reactions in the body, the soma. Accepting this, doctors turned to the Greek and coined the term psychosomatic--referring to the impact of mind on the physical body. For example, negative emotions can cause the blood pressure to rise, or for us to be accident prone.

PNEUMAPSYCHOSOMATIC
However, normal human beings have something extra, which animals do not seem to have--It is a sense of self-awareness, consciousness of self, that which we call the human spirit. In Greek, that something extra is called the pneuma. In 1 Thess. 5:23, Paul refers to the "whole being"--spirit (pneuma), soul (psyche) and body (soma).

Based on this, it is my opinion, that human beings have the unique ability to use the imagination, to know, to remember, to vision the future and to influence what is going on in the mind and the body positively, or negatively. That is, human beings have the ability to use what I call the pneuma factor, which can affect the mind and the body, the family and the community,for good or ill.

Anthopologist, Lewis Mumford, said that if we were just animals we would never debate whether we are or not. Animals do not study philosophy. Of course animals get ill. But I know of no animal which will consciously choose to make itself ill. On the other hand, some human beings do seem to make themselves physically and/or mentally ill by making negative choices. For example, we smoke; we drink too much, and we over eat.

This can lead to what I choose to call pneumasomatic diseases. People allow themselves to become addicted to drugs, alcohol, or food, and go on choosing to do harm to themselves. The same thing is true for many mental diseases. Many people often deliberately choose to be unhappy and depressed--leading to pneumapsychic diseases.

PNEUMAPSYCHOSOMATIC
In addition, there are times when all three components seem to be involved. Thus there are conditions which can be described as pneumapsychosomatic ones. For example, self-inflicted wounds. Or even suicides--total self-destruction of mind and body, including the lives of others.

Could it be that terrorists are people who are pneumapsychosomatically ill? And this is not offered as an excuse, but as a possible way of dealing with and even preventing this totally destructive behaviour.

This leads nicely to the revealing comment which GB offers about Freud

The point GB makes, here, is a powerful and useful one:
It is not enough just to get people to dwell on the unconscious memories and feelings and to bring them to consciousness.

No doubt, in addition to the conscious memories, the unconscious minds of terrorists are, no doubt, filled with a multitude of unpleasant memories, often cultural in nature. Such memories call out to them, from within, urging them to take revenge for past wrongs--real or imagined. The process of bringing such memories to the conscious mind only motives them more to act on what they feel. It motivates them to take revenge, even at the cost of their own lives.

Jung offered a better and more loving and saving approach to the unconsciousUnlike Freud, and much of modern psychiatry, Jung saw the value in the moral, religious and spiritual imperative.

Ouroboros -- http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html

Interface between shamanism and psychiatry in Miyako Islands, Okinawa, Japan: a viewpoint from medical and psychiatric anthropology

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/1813672

Two books by Olga Kharitidi, a psychiatrist who turned to shamanism for answers:

"Entering the Circle"

"Master of Lucid Dreams"