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Trip like I do
I was once srtuck by a little bolt of lightening, while I was walking through a field in Calgary, Alberta to play baseball. I was wearing my baseball cleats and the skies were looking ominous and I figured we would get rained out. As I climbed the crest of the last hill just before the ball diamond I was struck. It hit me on the top of my head in the form of circular rotation and burnt a hole in my hat.

I'll tell ya, I did a quantum jump that day.
Trip like I do
Lightning Initiation and Forecast

An algorithm that is currently under active development is to use data from multiple sensors to forecast lightning initiation and to determine where the lightning is moving.
Hey Hey
QUOTE (Dan @ Nov 25, 06:50 PM)
evidence is the key, and so far there isn't any evidence that string theory or quantum loop theory is necessarily true. It is basically inventing mechanisms that could do what the unseen mechanisms are doing. We still haven't seen the unseen mechanisms, so the invention is nothing more than speculation

A bit like quarks 20 years ago?
Trip like I do
The upbuilding or unfolding of the knowable universe presents to our minds a series of gradual ascents each divided from the next by an apparent leap over what seems to be a chasm.
Trip like I do
"Quantum Jumps," pg. 268 -269 from 'The Physics of Consciousness' by Evan Harris Walker. 2000

Quantum Jumps

".... It is the matter of what the term 'quantum jumps' means. We have just used this concept because in the context of the motions of atomic particles, it is commonly used to depict graphically the implications of quantum mechanics. But as with so much that is said about quantum mechanics, this world picture, quantum jumps, falls short of faithfulness to physics.
If any two particles collide, they do not bounce away with a single possible outcome; they bounce away with a collection of possible outcomes... All these possibilities exist simultaneously as potentialities, and when a measurement or observation is made on the object, it 'jumps' into one of the possible states as an actualization. If we could observe the atomic world, we would see something that indeed appeared to be the object jumping from one place to another discontinuosly, but the reality is different... Let us see what the reality is behind the appearance of things. The Schrodinger equation lets us see that these jumps are not there until our observation creates them. Hence we observe the object in one location when one particle of light (that let's us see the object) arrives to indicate the object's location. Then after its encounter with the particle of light, the object moves off like Lord Ronald who 'flung himself upon his horse and rode madly off in all directions' at once. The object would move off in an infinity of possible paths - all real but existing as potential states. Then the next particle of light illuminates the object, and our observation collapses these possibilities - collapses the state vector into one state, one actualization. We see this as a jump. What we observe, therefore, looks like objects jumping about as though we were looking at things with a syncopated strobe light with everything jumping and dancing wildly about.
If, however, we look at things not on the atomic scale but on the macroscopic scale, most of these jumps average out so that on the large scale we usually see a smooth motion, the classical smooth clock-like motion of planets gliding in their orbits about the sun, or billiard balls rolling deterministically across a pool table. That is what we usually see, usually."
Rick
The idea that human observation is required in order to "collapse" the quantum state bothers me. I know that according to Richard Feynman it's supposed to bother me, but it bothers me just the same. Here is the problem that I see with that interpretation:

We know that large stars eventually explode (supernovae). That explosion process is quantum-mechanical in nature. We see these explosions hundreds or thousands of years after they happen due to the slowness of light. If we observe them thousands of years after they happen, how do all those quadrillions of quantum reactions in the star's core get collapsed into the explosion event before they are observed?
Trip like I do
Bridging the gap - begin to view the process in terms of "levels of consciousness."

Each level of consciousness denotes particular understandings and experiences that one might go through in order to 'move on' to the next level (rights of passage). With each new experiential understanding of an aspect of consciousness, one becomes freer to move to the next aspect of consciousness, or level of understanding. These passages are what is refered to as quantum jumps through which one passes. As one passes through one aspect of consciousness, new doorways are opened, new experiences explored, and one can move on through the next aspect of consciousness.

Stimulate new experiences in such a way that the window through which reality is observed begins to shift.
Rick
Quantum jumps in the context you are using are just a figure of speech. I'm not talking about levels of understanding or consciousness. I'm just talking about basic physics here. Quantum mechanical interpretations of the necessity of consciousness bother me.

It implies that life couldn't evlove because there was no one to observe (collapse) the quantum states that are undecided during chemical reactions of the first protein molecules. Hence, the interpretation that an observer is required in quantum mechanics is hogwash. Balderdash. Believed only by nincompoops. Horsefeathers. And so on.
Trip like I do
Quantum jump is a specific term in physics that refers to the nature of change that occurs in particles: In place of a continuous change is a discontinuous leap. At one instance the elementary particle is inside the nucleus. At the next it has escaped. There is no intermediate state, no time in which the particle is actually in the process of getting out. Unlike a mouse, a quantum particle will never be discovered with its head poking out and its tail sticking in. Quantum theorists call this discontinuous transition, the quantum jump.

An instant before the jump, the elementary particle is occupying a given region of space. An instant later it is somewhere else and according to the quantum theory no physical process connects these two physical states of being, no duration of time seperates them. It is as if the elementary particle suddenly flickered out of existence, passed through a limbo of no time and no space and then reappeared somewhere else. At one instant the particle is inside the nucleus and the next it is travelling around at a high speed. Nothing happens in between. This is the mystery of the quantum jump.
Dan
QUOTE (Hey Hey @ Nov 29, 10:20 AM)
QUOTE (Dan @ Nov 25, 06:50 PM)
evidence is the key, and so far there isn't any evidence that string theory or quantum loop theory is necessarily true.  It is basically inventing mechanisms that could do what the unseen mechanisms are doing.  We still haven't seen the unseen mechanisms, so the invention is nothing more than speculation

A bit like quarks 20 years ago?

yeah, and also a bit like the 'epicycle' explanation of planetary motion in the middle ages
Trip like I do
In psychological terms, 'quantum jumps' points to a change that has taken place that cannot be tracked. Something happens that we can't identify and the person has moved from one state (emotional block) to another, less limited state (no emotional block).

So it is with each level of understanding that successively 'removes' a level of limitation. At some point a change occurs and you find yourself at a new level of consciousness. with each step, the radius of your perception widens to encompass an ever-expanding horizon.
Dan
it seems to me the term 'quantum jump' is being used to describe two distinct physical ideas besides the 'psychological' interpretation. The first of the physical ideas has to do with the transition of an atom from one definite electronic quantum state to another accompanied by the emission or absorption of an energy quanta (as I originally posted on this thread). The second of the physical ideas has to do with the collapse of a quantum state from a superposition of quantum basis states to a definite quantum basis state (which Rick is rightly concerned with). I believe is the proper use of the term in terms of physics is the first one as can be seen in the following definition:
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/we...rd=quantum+jump
The second use of the term in terms of physics, being technically inaccurate, should instead be replaced by 'collapse of the wavefunction' or maybe just 'quantum collapse'. the psychological use is simply refers to an apparent functional similarity to the physical process of a rapid transition from one state to the next, as illustrated by Trip.
Trip like I do
Level 1

"As the observer of the contents of my mind (thoughts, feeling, emotions, sensations, associations), I am more than the contents of my mind."

Anyone who has studied Eastern traditions will recognize the obvious origins of this first level. The cornerstone of most meditation disciplines is the practice of observing, or being mindful of the contents of one's mind or state-of-being. Thus one observes specific thoughts, images, sensations, feelings, and emotions as they occur and, in the process, gains a sense of being seperate from more than the flow of these contents.

Once an observer begins to appreciate that he is not his thoughts, feelings, and emotions, but rather an observing presence, a process of disidentification is inaugurated that gradually constellates as the first bridge to quantum consciousness.
Dan
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Nov 30, 03:59 PM)
Once an observer begins to appreciate that he is not his thoughts, feelings, and emotions, but rather an observing presence, a process of disidentification is inaugurated that gradually constellates as the first bridge to quantum consciousness.

in this case, 'quantum consciousness' is at best a loose use of the the psychological interpretation, as it makes no sense as a strict use of the physical interpretation.
Trip like I do
Level 2

Everthing (thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations, associations) is made of energy.

Here we approach the first aspect of the work of noted physicist Dr. David Bohm. Bohm says that the world is made of energy, space, mass, and time.

Once you have experienced yourself as the observer, then you can begin to experience how all the things you observe going on in 'your mind' are made of the same underlying energy. Anger is made of the same energy that joy is. Level 2 allows you to remove the labels or content that typically categorize various facets of experience as being different, thus automatically diffusing or neutralizing the charge of whatever experience you are observing.
Rick
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Nov 30, 04:59 PM)
"As the observer of the contents of my mind (thoughts, feeling, emotions, sensations, associations), I am more than the contents of my mind."

The conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise. Self-reference does not make something greater than itself.
Trip like I do
"I'm just sittin here watching the wheels go round and round...I really love to watch them roll...no longer ridin on the merry-go-round...I just had to let it go...I just had to let it go...I just had to let it go." John Lennon
Dan
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 30, 04:10 PM)
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Nov 30, 04:59 PM)
"As the observer of the contents of my mind (thoughts, feeling, emotions, sensations, associations), I am more than the contents of my mind."

The conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise. Self-reference does not make something greater than itself.

and self-reference is an infinite progression. Let's say I can observe myself. Can I then observe myself observing myself? And can I further observe myself observing myself observing myself? etc...? At what point can one be completely observing oneself? It sounds like a rather nasty infinite loop of observation, which I tend to believe is impossible given the finiteness of action for an observer.
Rick
The issue of an "observer" in the mind is a piece of old fashioned discredited mental theory. There is no homunculus. Hypothesizing a "little man" in the mind merely removes the problem one step and gets one nowhere (like Lennon's "nowhere man").
Dan
In a 'zen' sort of way, I say that one must eventually let go of self-observation as a vehicle of 'enlighenment' as such self-observation can only lead to the development of pathological thinking and increasing decoherence of the 'tao' within or some such nonsense rolleyes.gif
Rick
It takes a special skill to spout convincing psychobabble. You obviously don't have it.
Dan
curses!
Trip like I do
Level 3

I am the creator of what I observe.

Dr. Werner Heisenberg - Uncertainty Principle.

Heisenberg demonstrated that the observer creates that which he/she observes (we create our subjective experience).

In the Eastern tradition emphasis is placed solely on the person doing the witnessing. There is no mention of any causal relationship between the thoughts that are observed and the person doing the observed. Thought and observer of thought are quite seperate in essence.

Observer created reality states: (1) There is no reality in the absence of observation and, (2) observation creates reality. Put simply, you as the observer create the subjective reality you are observing.

Level 3 empowers one beyond the passive position of witness to the active position of creator. Once you understand, for example, that you create your own sadness, or depression, or anxiety, you can stop creating it. This bridge leads us further out of the dense forest of Newtonian thought toward the ranging freedom of quantum consciousness.
BodhiTree
Contrary to prevalent misunderstanding of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, we do not "create" reallity as observers; rather, we force reality to choose from an infinite series of possibilities. We do not, again, decide which of these possibilities reality's wavefunction collapses to.
Kahekili
QUOTE
Observer created reality states: (1) There is no reality in the absence of observation and, (2) observation creates reality. Put simply, you as the observer create the subjective reality you are observing.


Heisenberg is an often-misquoted physicist, although his predictions are demonstratable. If quantum rules apply to human consciousness as anything other than metaphors, then I suspect that the best place to see those rules in action are in human relationships.

This would imply that, for example, in a family discussion, there are no innocent bystanders. A family member who tries to observe the discussion without participation IS participating - and other members will be affected, perhaps strongly, by this neutral participation.

However, systems theory and chaos theory may be far more applicable to understanding and changing consciousness than metaphors from quantum physics.

Maybe see www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/chaos.htm for an article about dealing with change by changing personality and human identity.
rhymer
Can someone clarify this 'observation' thing for me?

If a dead man is taken to a remote, unvisited island and the takers then depart, does his body not decay until somebody goes back to the island to see if it has decayed?

And does it then, instantly decay by an amount that would have taken 10 years if someone had stayed and watched?

In particular I am having difficulty with 'there is no reality in the absence of observation.
Reality for me is what actually happens, not what we think happens!
Trip like I do
If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
Trip like I do
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 30, 05:29 PM)
The idea that human observation is required in order to "collapse" the quantum state bothers me. I know that according to Richard Feynman it's supposed to bother me, but it bothers me just the same. Here is the problem that I see with that interpretation:

We know that large stars eventually explode (supernovae). That explosion process is quantum-mechanical in nature. We see these explosions hundreds or thousands of years after they happen due to the slowness of light. If we observe them thousands of years after they happen, how do all those quadrillions of quantum reactions in the star's core get collapsed into the explosion event before they are observed?

Optical afterimage?

Slow? 186,000 m p/s
Trip like I do
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 30, 05:39 PM)
Quantum jumps in the context you are using are just a figure of speech. I'm not talking about levels of understanding or consciousness. I'm just talking about basic physics here. Quantum mechanical interpretations of the necessity of consciousness bother me.


Just making parallels (metaphors) between the macro/micro cosmic and the human mind and its mechanical attributes and operational procedures.

Quantum consciousness and the next, or is it current social paradigm.

Currently endure thought at the speed of light (relativity) social paradigm via high-speed internet and the new global economy where things happen instantaneously and simultaneously.
Trip like I do
In psychological terms, 'quantum jumps' points to a change that has taken place that cannot be tracked.

Quantum jump is a specific term in physics that refers to the nature of change that occurs in particles: In place of a continuous change is a discontinuous leap. As of yet, cannot be tracked.
Trip like I do
QUOTE (Dan @ Nov 30, 07:19 PM)
QUOTE (Rick @ Nov 30, 04:10 PM)
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Nov 30, 04:59 PM)
"As the observer of the contents of my mind (thoughts, feeling, emotions, sensations, associations), I am more than the contents of my mind."

The conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise. Self-reference does not make something greater than itself.

and self-reference is an infinite progression. Let's say I can observe myself. Can I then observe myself observing myself? And can I further observe myself observing myself observing myself? etc...? At what point can one be completely observing oneself? It sounds like a rather nasty infinite loop of observation, which I tend to believe is impossible given the finiteness of action for an observer.

Quantum Loop?
Trip like I do
QUOTE (BodhiTree @ Nov 30, 09:47 PM)
Contrary to prevalent misunderstanding of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, we do not "create" reallity as observers; rather, we force reality to choose from an infinite series of possibilities. We do not, again, decide which of these possibilities reality's wavefunction collapses to.

We do have the power of psychological interpretation though.
Trip like I do
QUOTE (Kahekili @ Dec 01, 03:59 AM)

However, systems theory and chaos theory may be far more applicable to understanding and changing consciousness than metaphors from quantum physics.


Chaos theory? Heaven forbid social consciousness ever comes to that.

Dark ages?
Trip like I do
QUOTE (rhymer @ Dec 01, 07:21 AM)
Can someone clarify this 'observation' thing for me?

If a dead man is taken to a remote, unvisited island and the takers then depart, does his body not decay until somebody goes back to the island to see if it has decayed?

And does it then, instantly decay by an amount that would have taken 10 years if someone had stayed and watched?

In particular I am having difficulty with 'there is no reality in the absence of observation.
Reality for me is what actually happens, not what we think happens!

If you are asleep, what reality are you partaking (observing) in?
Trip like I do
The Quantum Self: Human Nature and Cosciousness Defined by The New Physics," Danah Zohar.

"....at the Quantum level of reality, the whole picture of continuous movement through space and time breaks down. Quantum physics is of 'lumps' and 'jumps'. The lumps appeared in the early days of Quantum theory when Max Planck proved that all energy is radiated in individual packets, called Quanta, rather than in flowing streams over a continuous spectrum; the jumps appeared later when Niels Bohr demonstrated that electrons jump from one energy state to another in discontinuous 'quantum leaps,' the size of which depending on how much quanta of energy they have absorbed or given off.
The original Bohr atom was like a minute solar system. It had a comparitively large nucleus at the centre in the place of the sun and the various electrons circling about in their individual orbits, each orbit representing a given energy state that an electron can occupy. There was no rhyme or reason as to when an electron might leap from one orbit to another, or how big of a leap it might take."

Turning out to be a bit outdated, for it was written in 1990.

· It still is a great read, I'd recommend it to anyone trying to catch up to where the latest developments in Quantum research developed and derived from, of course not solely from this source, but I'm sure it was a contributor to the present Quantum phenomena. The author seems to have impressive credentials and valid support, of which includes Erik Erickson, of whom she was a student at Harvard.
· This book purports to cover Quantum psychology, Quantum responsibility, Quantum morality, Quantum aesthetics, Quantum immorality, the Quantum worldview, and Quantum theology.
· Before, and during reading of any material, one should cognisize the fact of the enclosed information’s' relativity, i.e. date published, author (male or female biased), publishers, location, and the current social collective mental paradigm.
· And then ask what is this information in front of you trying to propagandize and does it fit into your current schematical structure.
· She drew some good analogies.
· Wrote about Cartesian doubt and Newtonian classical physics of the 17th century.
Both changed reality and the way 17th century perceptions were formed of individuality and collectiveness. Cartesian philosophy = "I" centered culture dominated by egocentricity with emphasis on the "I" and "mine".
· Classical physics - were Newton's vision tore us out from the fabric of the universe itself. It transformed the Greek orientated Cosmos, filled with intelligence and driven by the love of God for the benefit of Man, into a dead clockwork machine.
· Human beings and their struggles were irrelevant to the workings of the vast universal machine.

· I've posted info on other threads referring to this global mechanization that occurred during these times. Check out the Velikovsky thread and posts on Lewis Mumford.

· Marx, Darwin, and the forces of Freud’s dark psyche all owe their inspiration to Newtonian physical theory. Throughout history we have drawn our conception of ourselves and our place in the universe from the current physical theory of the day.
· Relativity itself is about the physics of high velocities and very great distances. Quantum physics is that tiny micro world within the atom, it describes the inner workings of everything we see and, at least, physically are.
· The whole world of matter is made up of atoms and their even smaller components. I.e. a single photon of light affects the sensitivity of the optic nerve.
· Quantum leaps (analogies).
· Asserts consciousness, like matter, emerges from the world of quantum events.
Our thought patterns may be explained and mirrored (sounds so narcissistic) by the same laws and behaviour patterns that govern the world of electrons and photons.
· Does our intellect derive its laws from nature?

The spirit of the new physics combats the estrangement and segmentation of life in the twentieth century and supplants it with a view of reality in which the human consciousness is just one form of consciousness within a wider cosmic consciousness.

Such a quantum worldview goes beyond the two poles of individual and relationship by demonstrating that human beings can only be the persons they are within a framework.

A therapeutic universal narrative is now coming into consciousness from many diverse fields of science and telling us that it is futile to be disconnected.

The cosmos is "one system of which we're one part integrated into the totality.... The fate of the earth is our fate as we're part of the same totality." (Coelho, 1993)
Kahekili
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Dec 01, 06:29 AM)
QUOTE (Kahekili @ Dec 01, 03:59 AM)

However, systems theory and chaos theory may be far more applicable to understanding and changing consciousness than metaphors from quantum physics.

Chaos theory? Heaven forbid social consciousness ever comes to that.

Dark ages?


Call it complexity theory, if that makes it less forbidding to heaven.

Complexity theory offers dynamic and testable models for predicting complex human behavior. Poorly understood metaphors from particle physics do not.
Trip like I do
Please, elaborate.

Enlighten me/us.
Kahekili
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Dec 01, 07:35 AM)
Please, elaborate.

Enlighten me/us.

Assuming that your request was a response to my comment about complexity ...


Before chaos theory, scientists could not find analytical solutions for chaotic systems, and could not predict complex behavior, even with detailed knowledge. But if social scientists assumed that behavior in complex systems was linear, then they could apply statistical analysis to assess and predict the behavior of populations. As statistics became an obsession, individual contributions to a population were ignored. Individual excellence was smeared across populations.

Assumptions of linearity and an obsession with statistics provided scientists with "temporary patches" until the universal properties of non-linear, complex systems were discovered. These assumptions, these damned lies, blurred individual expertise across population statistics. Amongst other consequences, the sciences of human behavior became, by definition, sciences of mediocrity.

The "temporary patches" of statistics continue to dominate the social sciences, in which individual human excellence is not a field worthy of serious study.

Snipped from "Chaos, Coaching, Counseling & Psychotherapy"
www.soulwork.net\sw_articles_eng\chaos.htm
Rick
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Dec 01, 06:59 AM)
Slow? 186,000 m p/s

It takes two hours to send a command and get a response back to and from a robot in orbit around Jupiter. To me, that is slow. It takes four years to send a signal to Alpha Centauri. To me, that is slow. It takes 100,000 years to send a signal across our galaxy. To me, that is slow.
rhymer
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Dec 01, 02:32 PM)
QUOTE (rhymer @ Dec 01, 07:21 AM)
Can someone clarify this 'observation' thing for me?

If a dead man is taken to a remote, unvisited island and the takers then depart, does his body not decay until somebody goes back to the island to see if it has decayed?

And does it then, instantly decay by an amount that would have taken 10 years if someone had stayed and watched?

In particular I am having difficulty with 'there is no reality in the absence of observation.
Reality for me is what actually happens, not what we think happens!

If you are asleep, what reality are you partaking (observing) in?

Aha, so you are not talking about reality, but rather our perception of reality, which can be non-existent or true or false!
Thank you.

I can now see if the explanations of quantum 'hops' stack up under this scenario.
Rick
QUOTE (rhymer @ Dec 01, 01:17 PM)
... Aha, so you are not talking about reality, but rather our perception of reality, which can be non-existent or true or false!

I always thought that reality, which is the sum of all that exists, includes our perceptions.
Trip like I do
There is my reality. What I observe/perceive/interpret (percept/recept/concept).

There is a reality that I do not partake in. Reality that I do not observe/perceive/interpret.

There is collective reality. Reality that we all observe/perceive/interpret.

Again, "If a tree falls in the forest....?"

If human kind did not exist and there was nobody to observe/perceive/interpret, would quantum jumps still occur, would any celestial dynamics exist and occur?
Trip like I do
QUOTE (Kahekili @ Dec 01, 03:59 AM)
QUOTE
Observer created reality states: (1) There is no reality in the absence of observation and, (2) observation creates reality. Put simply, you as the observer create the subjective reality you are observing.


Heisenberg is an often-misquoted physicist, although his predictions are demonstratable. If quantum rules apply to human consciousness as anything other than metaphors, then I suspect that the best place to see those rules in action are in human relationships.

This would imply that, for example, in a family discussion, there are no innocent bystanders. A family member who tries to observe the discussion without participation IS participating - and other members will be affected, perhaps strongly, by this neutral participation.

However, systems theory and chaos theory may be far more applicable to understanding and changing consciousness than metaphors from quantum physics.

Maybe see www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/chaos.htm for an article about dealing with change by changing personality and human identity.

Probably one of the most exciting and provocative theories in quantum physics is Werner Heisenberg's 'Uncertainty Principle'. In the mid-1920's he was able to demonsrtate that the observer, by the choices he/she made, influenced the outcome of a physics experiment. For the first time, we as observers of life were seen as inseparable from life. The observer not only viewed a world 'out there,' as Newtonian physics had claimed, but it altered, influenced, and some physicists would claim, created, what is saw through the act of observation

What is out there apparently depends, in a rigorous mathematical sense, as well as a philosophical one, upon what we decide 'in here'. The new physics tells us that an observer cannot observe without altering what he sees.

The observer is the creator of the particle/mass aspect of the universe.

This theory becomes a major quantum jump that Quantum Psychology develops to help understand human states.

The observer, through an act of observation, creates, his/her subjective internal response pattern, i.e. their experience.
Trip like I do
In the early 1930's, the Copenhagen debates took place in an attempt to hash out the nature of reality according to the newly developed quantum physics.

The Copenhagen interpretation consists of two distinct parts: (1) There is no reality in the absence of observation; (2) Observation creates reality.

You create your own reality is the theme of Fred Wolf's 'Taking the Quantum Leap'.
Trip like I do
QUOTE (Dan @ Dec 01, 09:09 PM)
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-uncertainty/

Great link Dan, thanks.
Kahekili
QUOTE (Trip like I do @ Dec 01, 06:03 PM)
[QUOTE=Kahekili,Dec 01, 03:59 AM] [QUOTE]

This (Heisenberg's) theory becomes a major quantum jump that Quantum Psychology develops to help understand human states.

The observer, through an act of observation, creates, his/her subjective internal response pattern, i.e. their experience.

Each advance of science has been used to "explain" how the mind works. Early versions were mechanical, and then galvanic, chemical, electronic, holographic and quantum, etc. I'm almost surprised to not read that human mental process is based on supermassive black holes.

And no doubt you or I could write a theory about it. Isn't there a law of infinite theories - something like "an infinte number of theories can be used to explain a given set of data."

It seems that we can use ANY observation to justify ANY belief. Part of my life is training therapists, and I occasionally meet diagnosed (and undiagnosed) schizophrenics with interesting cause-effect concepts, which they can endlessly justify.

Yet the same observation can apply to the therapists, who may cling to a psycho-theology long after it has been shown to be ineffective or worse.

Rather naively, perhaps, I measure truth by effectiveness. How do you do it?

Martyn Carruthers
www.soulwork.net
Dan
QUOTE (Kahekili @ Dec 02, 02:30 AM)
Each advance of science has been used to "explain" how the mind works. Early versions were mechanical, and then galvanic, chemical, electronic, holographic and quantum, etc. I'm almost surprised to not read that human mental process is based on supermassive black holes.

Since the brain is a physical object and the mind is causally related to the brain, it follows that physical law should apply toward explaining the mind. Just because we have a history of jumping the gun doesn't mean the approach is invalid.

QUOTE
It seems that we can use ANY observation to justify ANY belief. Part of my life is training therapists, and I occasionally meet diagnosed (and undiagnosed) schizophrenics with interesting cause-effect concepts, which they can endlessly justify.

Yet the same observation can apply to the therapists, who may cling to a psycho-theology long after it has been shown to be ineffective or worse.

Can I use the observation "the sky is blue" to justify the belief "we are all surrounded by invisible unicorns"? I think the more correct thing to say is that people will attempt to justify their beliefs by using accepted ideas and facts in ways that lend the appearance of proof for their beliefs. Insofar as others cannot detect the fallacious or non-existent logic of the alleged proof, they might be fooled into believing it is valid.

QUOTE
Rather naively, perhaps, I measure truth by effectiveness. How do you do it?

Effectiveness is only a measure of relation of belief to desired result. Effectiveness can certainly can be taken as evidence that the belief is true, but it is not necessarily conclusive evidence. There may be many other factors at play that we are not aware of when applying our belief, and such factors may override certain defects of our belief in support of the desired result. Thus, one would be advised to not take a belief as completely true simply because its application yeilds a significant result that was desired.
Kahekili
QUOTE (Dan @ Dec 02, 11:27 AM)
QUOTE
Rather naively, perhaps, I measure truth by effectiveness. How do you do it?

Effectiveness is only a measure of relation of belief to desired result. Effectiveness can certainly can be taken as evidence that the belief is true, but it is not necessarily conclusive evidence. There may be many other factors at play that we are not aware of when applying our belief, and such factors may override certain defects of our belief in support of the desired result. Thus, one would be advised to not take a belief as completely true simply because its application yeilds a significant result that was desired.

Hey - good point and nicely summarized.

Perhaps better if I had said that I assess the worth of a truth by its ability to achieve a desired result; and by it's ability to predict accurately a future event.

And that does not mean that the "tryuth" is static. If I find a banknote by a busstop today - I can invent many reasons why it was there and why I deserved to find it - but a more useful test will come when I check again in the future.

I would agree that the causality is doubtful - like a story I remember from my biology teacher - that spiders listen with their legs because if you pull off their legs they cease responding to loud noises.

We model human experience - we all (as far as I know) build models representing (simplifying and distorting) reality and we can respond to our models rather than to the reality they represent.
rhymer
QUOTE (Kahekili @ Dec 02, 09:14 PM)
QUOTE (Dan @ Dec 02, 11:27 AM)
QUOTE
Rather naively, perhaps, I measure truth by effectiveness. How do you do it?

Effectiveness is only a measure of relation of belief to desired result. Effectiveness can certainly can be taken as evidence that the belief is true, but it is not necessarily conclusive evidence. There may be many other factors at play that we are not aware of when applying our belief, and such factors may override certain defects of our belief in support of the desired result. Thus, one would be advised to not take a belief as completely true simply because its application yeilds a significant result that was desired.

Hey - good point and nicely summarized.

Perhaps better if I had said that I assess the worth of a truth by its ability to achieve a desired result; and by it's ability to predict accurately a future event.

And that does not mean that the "tryuth" is static. If I find a banknote by a busstop today - I can invent many reasons why it was there and why I deserved to find it - but a more useful test will come when I check again in the future.

I would agree that the causality is doubtful - like a story I remember from my biology teacher - that spiders listen with their legs because if you pull off their legs they cease responding to loud noises.

We model human experience - we all (as far as I know) build models representing (simplifying and distorting) reality and we can respond to our models rather than to the reality they represent.

Hi Martin,

I go a little bit further, by saying that our latest model is our current model of reality, and we either modify that model in the light of new, stronger ideas of reality based on new experience, or with considerable effort, revert to a subset of the previous model for a particular aspect if doubts arise about the current models viability.

Our 'model' is 'the real world' internalised.
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