I was thinking today (yeah wow!)
If schizophrenia (in most cases) is simply a coping mechanism... then couldn't some one come to the conclusion that all religions are simply a form of mass schizophrenia?....

After all what else is a religion exept an idea that gives our life purpose and meaning?

If you think about it... life is quite a depressing thing when broken down to the natural cycle of things.... birth... existance..(birth from existance).. death... all of this leading to the fact that it all ends... while religion give everything meaning and purpose... and hope that things don't end the way they seem to us....


Any oppinions and comments will be appreciated...

In my humble opinion, there is no point considering schizophrenia with religion.

The simple reason is that schizophrenia is not a coping mechanism [from everything I have read and understand about it].

If you know differently, could you please explain why?

Bill.

An idea based on theoretical/bilical/historical research?

Religion may not be schizophrenia, but it's clearly irrational. Religion uses made up beliefs enforced by authority to make us behave according to official standards and to give us false hope of a hypothetical afterlife. The creation of false ideas in the minds of innocent people is harmful. Ethical people everywhere should do everything in their power to end this harm.

It can be argued that removing false hopes from mind-controlled people might also do them harm. That argument is invalid on humanist grounds. It's the height of paternalistic and hypocritical thinking to imagine that one has a duty to mislead others for their own good.

Only when people are fully acquainted with the hard facts of reality can they form realistic goals for living together in peace and prosperity and preserving the planet for the future evolution and progress of life in the universe.

all i can say is that it'd make one hell of a novel, my skitzophrenic uncle casts demons out of people, put his hand in flames, and thought he wouldn't be burnt..theres a definate psychosis that magnifies when mixed w/ religion, when my dad went off his meds he became a prophet, before he was diagnosed he was religous, so its in the families history,, but some of my aunts were tied down while demons were unleashed....my uncles scared me to death, theres a certain power they have, and when directed toward religion or the bible, it ends upa twisted mixture, ie..its hard to tell where the illness starts and the fanatic religion begins.....one minute my uncle would be so so kind, the next hed call us devils and be physically violent...he hit my dad w/ a baseball bat, causing tbi on my dad...causing mania symptoms that w/o he becomes a prohet, literally someone else..very scary..annyway i think the subject has alot of potential research that could be done on the effects of religion mixed especially with untreated bi-polar--tbi---scytzophrenia.
raine

I think it's safe to say they are bona-fide wacko

As were many Saints.

true true, its all how that magnetic psychic energy is challenged, the uncles, are intelligent and manic-when jim gets mad his face changes, and he gets ovrly strong. when the argument between my dad and him started, my dad grabbed a bat in fear, jim took the bat out iof his hands and kept hitting him, until on the floor, my dad pleaded for his life, jim struck him one last time in the head, leaving him for dead. my dads forever changed...jims free didnt do a days time...family dispute they each got a
500$ fine....
the power if u will, i beleive started with my great great grandmother, who was SAID to lift tables with her powers... they lived in an old vry haunted victorian,,,remember palaying as kids, something on the 3rd floor was so scarry, we'd be so scared up there.
my grandmother kept the mentally isane in there, one i recall was tied o a chair
we'd run in front of her, just out of reach

amnnyway my dad as a child, when the moment his grandmother died, he heard knocks at the door, in the middle of the night, noone..also heard children playing in the yard,,,,,,
all goes for a good fire side scary story, but the "power" has diminished
my brother is a great artist....Me just a bit wacked..lol..but I know theres illness in the family so when i feel a symptom im extra catious......
annyway
thanx for listeni
B, raine

"all religions are simply a form of mass schizophrenia?...."

Assuming both religion and schizo are coping mechanisms! But clearly these assumptions can be called into question. Religion ideally has its basis in experience, particularly mystical experience, whereas schizo is something no-one fully understands but seems to involve brain disfunction and maladaptation. Thus, comparing religion to schizo is not really valid.

Thank you, Abolitionist.

I also concur with Rick, but add my suspicion that without the 'fear of God' that was perpetrated many centuries ago, we may not have survived as humans.
It is possible that we would be more advanced now, however!

The argument that religion has outlived its usefulness has merit.

what?

ahhh!
religion is teh mind control!!!1
dont force you antiquated ideas of morality on me!

think for yourself and embrace my ethics of secular humanism instead!

Take nothing on faith or authority. The stakes are too high for one to shirk his duty to become informed and empowered by truth. Humanism means that each person must decide for himself what is right. Listen to a thousand voices but decide for yourself.

Don't decide for yourselves. Obey me. Believe everything I say. Put all your money in a shoebox and send it to me.

Suppose that you are in the habit of deciding things for yourself. If I tell you to keep on doing it, will it have any effect?

Suppose you are in the habit of heeding the advice of others. If I advise you to stop doing that, then you have a paradox, which is not a problem, as paradoxes are properly ignored. Like singularities in mathematics, we just step over them, like landmines.

I hear and obey, master

Good robot.

Rick, you are becoming too clever for our own good. I just spent time re-reading some of your comments above as though theywere the way. Then I suddenely woke up and realized that they are just A way. Yes, we need to decide independently. Unfortunately, philosophy doesn't get you through the day. Most of the day works because we have (unconsciously, subconsciously, hypnotically??) accepted the view, opinions and words of others. For eg, we drive our cars accepting that they are safe. Did we read the technical reports indicating the safety test results? Unlikely. To live a life you have to accept so many opinions of others. Yes, we should stop and think now and again. But that won't wash the pots or change the diaper. We have to do a bit of each - thinking and accepting. And we are lucky that in our affluent western lives we have the time, energy and education to philosphize. It is more difficult with a hungry belly and malaria. So I'll continue to do as I'm told most of the time and just do as I like here on the brain,eta forum! Merry Christmas to you and all. Hey Hey

i agree with you insane jester that religion seems to be a coping device. but life happens no matter what we think about it. we live and die no matter whether we think that living and dieing comes from god or whether we think that it comes from science or the other multitude of common and uncommon beliefs. the way that i see it, i think that people should stop worrying about life and just live.

This thread about religion and mental disease raises the issues of death and dying, and the presence of any afterlife. We have worked endlessly with cases where families are "haunted" by dead relatives - nit in the Hollywood sense, but where the families are inordinately influenced by the now-dead individual - sometimes MORE than before that person's death.

Here's a reference about systemic patterning and dead people

---------------------------------
Life, Death & Afterlife
David J. Marsden

People of most cultures honor dead people. According to traditions from all over the world, a dishonored or ignored dead person will haunt the living, either as an external or internal ghost. An "external ghost" is the common or garden ghost of many books and creepy tales. An "internal ghost" is often called imagination, possession, obsession, or identification with a dead person, depending on education.

Far beyond the divination games with an Ouija board or fortune telling with tarot cards is a phenomena called Dead Person Identification. This has been well described by Martyn Carruthers, who offers a solid model for its causation and many diagnostic and therapeutic tips; moreover he frequently demonstrates methods that provide lasting cures. Carruthers says that, based on his client workload and workshop participants, that about 10% of the population of Europe and America may suffer from symptoms of dead person identification. Or you can call it unconscious obsession; or even possession.

According to Martyn Carruthers, the symptoms of Dead Person Identification (DPI) follow systemic rules within families. DPI, he says, is the expected result when a family member dies in a manner that creates so much guilt for the family that the topic is taboo, and cannot be discussed or rationalized, and the dead person is ignored. Taboo deaths may include murder, suicide, abortion and deaths of children. Carruthers also said that the most common cause of DPI today may be induced abortion. (See: Spiritual Consequences of Abortion)

Dead Person Identification

Some symptoms of dead person identification:

Chronic sadness and melancholy
May appear to have "psychic" sensitivity
Preoccupied with death and dying
Fascination with cemeteries
Fascination with places where people died
May engage in risky activities (no fear of death)
May avoid becoming a parent
May fear that own children will die
May have miscarriages and dead children

(Personal notes from Soulwork coach training)

This list is incomplete, as other common symptoms of spirit possession or dead person identification are diseases in which a person appears to be committing suicide slowly, such as anorexia nervosa and many addictions. Yet the presence of physical or mental symptoms do not, by themselves, indicate DPI. Instead they can alert a coach, counselor or therapist to systemically check for this possibility.

I tested the "Soulwork"' diagnostic and systemic methods with many people - and I confirm their validity. But changework with "dead people" truly opens Pandora's Box. Two challenges of treating DPI are the horror movies that we and our clients may have seen as children, and tales of the supernatural that are part of most cultures and religions. The scary, esoteric stories told to me by clients can rival any created by Hollywood! These stories can also resurrect lingering childish fears into a full bloom of terror.

One of the symptoms of dead person identification (or spirit possession) is "May appear to have psychic sensitivity". Although Carruthers seems to dismiss this as "extreme sensitivity to body language", I have observed people with DPI symptoms accurately describe "secret" past events and current events elsewhere, and to accurately predict future events of previously unknown people.

"This list is incomplete, as other common symptoms of spirit possession or dead person identification are diseases in which a person appears to be committing suicide slowly, such as anorexia nervosa and many addictions."

You know, it is hard enough for people to have the symptoms of these diagnoses without this kind of rubbish being attached to their experiences. If you really want to help people with a mental health diagnosis, then do not contribute to the misunderstandings, hysteria, and stereotypes.

"May appear to have psychic sensitivity". Although Carruthers seems to dismiss this as "extreme sensitivity to body language", one of these relates to good observation skills and life experience (body language awareness) the other does not so why are these put together here?


I like your slogan - Haven't you suffered enough - put yourself out of your misery - must be quite effective with depressed people?

Greetings all as this is my first post please forgive/tolerate me if i go astray:I disagree that RELIGION is a form of schizophrenia,however it is as I believe merely a symptom of religion ,by PASSIVELY teaching (nowadays at least) religion from an early age and we in the west are EXPECTED to believe,SOCIETY (if such a thing exists)pressures people into accepting other peoples WORLD VIEW as normal,some of us are gifted with an unquenchable thirst for knowledge and this allows us (after our crystal clear perception gives us some help) too see the lie that is religion as clearly as day,we can be unfettered by religion and dis-spell all the nonsense that affects everyone else,but for others this connection or clarity of VISION is not possible,they have been taught to doubt people like us,there are more of them than us so their shared world view is the pervading ONE,they have constant positive reinforcement every hour of the day how can they not BELIEVE ,they have no reason to doubt (i struggle constantly to try and forgive ignorance but cannot).Mankind has, since IT FELL OUT OF A TREE,wondered the earth gaining and improving our knowledge,Religion happened as we sort answers to seemingly unanswerable questions ,first we worshipped inanimate objects,then we deified ourselves(or the superior beings amongst us-the most powerful ie ;the biggest and strongest ,even the more intelligient) aswell as other animals(birds,cats dogs the list is limited only by imagination) as all-things have,religion has evolved and it offers answers to life's difficulties,it can help,though you do have to be insane for it too have this effect,hence my disagreement with this thread.People who believe are BELIEVING in ABSTRACT concepts ,magical forces and beings,in other words thing that are not possible,this creates internal conflict which because of they must believe,maifests itself in different ways ,some people become schizophrenic (as they believe in magic,they believe that other people can use these forces,on others as well as the poor schizo`s themselves ,they don't realise that the voices in their heads are their own) others believe that should have been born as a member of the opposite sex because they are confused about the world and internalise their feeling to the point of madness (but in the later case how insane is the esteemed psychologist who diagnosed this condition-thus doubting god themselves,if only they were that aware?)Following a religion is an acceptable and largely unrecognised form of madness(belief in the existential is insane),there are many other forms of madness and I am aware that not all are caused by religion,but infact can be caused merely by chemical imbalance but my point remains intact.So friends; when whom or where ever you find sanity ,please cling to it tightly it will also feel alone in this mad world and will doubtless need your help as none belief also causes madness (if the rest of the world doubts you-YOU WILL EVENTUALLY DOUBT YOURSELF! (FOR F*CK`S SAKE WILL I SHUT UP,hehehe TTFN peeps

Interesting post and I thought I'd put my 2 cents in. Our belief is central to our evolution, it has constructed our minds from a single point, through duality and then a trinity. Belief is actually a method for culture to absorb new ideas and so it is a requirement for us to function.

We believe our parents will protect us.
We believe that our body will follow our commands.
We believe our eyes.
We believe certain aspects of the media.
We believe that there is an improved lifestyle waiting for us, we just have to earn it.
We believe many mathematical and scientific things without ever having tested them ourselves.

All of this belief is channelled into many different areas of our lives, so it is no wonder that a lack of religious direction causes strange and unfounded beliefs in:

the Hall of records under the Sphinx
the Egyptian Pyramids being vessels for immortality
the Egyptian Pyramids being huge intergalactic radio transmitters
Nazca lines being landing strip for aliens
Ancient Indians having meditation powered flying machines
The creation of Adam and Eve as told by the Bible being DNA cloning by aliens
Ancient texts having descripitions of the use of nuclear weapons.

It is not religion that causes mass schizophrenia, its the human spirit and group intelligence. What we REALLY need is to come together and create a global religion based on what we currently know and what is common in all religions. We love fantastical stories and if we don't get our fix from the fantastic religous stories, we move into even more fantastical areas.

I was not a religious man until I began researching what has been called religion throughout history, after having a flash of clarity. I think I understand the meaning of religion, why its important and what is wrong with it. My beliefs don't really fit with any current system, although I align myself towards Hindu/Buddhism and Shamanism.

A useful part of the exercise may be in determining the distinctions between "Religions" and "Philosophies".

Religions - at their core -- feature a deity - a Personality... with powers far beyond those of mortal men (wait a sec... isn't that Superman?).

The rest - the philosophies - are "ideas that might be worth sumthin'".

I prefer to hang out there.

Welcome, Guest--Nietsche is God. Tell us why you chose this name, please.

If you expect me to read what you have to say, please use short paragraphs, like those used in the daily paper. This will help all of us understand what it is you are really trying to say, okay?

For example, and notice how I have edited your words:

I would like to know what you mean when you write that mental illness can, "...be caused merely by chemical imbalance... So friends; when whom ever, or where ever, you find sanity, please cling to it, tightly, it will also feel alone in this mad world and will doubtless need your help as non-belief also causes madness (if the rest of the world doubts you-

Excellent points, Pave. Reading your stuff, I am not sure: Am I a philosophical religionist? Or a religionistic philospher?

Let's dialogue, not debate, about this, okay?

I think, Lindsay, the call is yours!

To my mind, however, I would describe your position as that of a philosopher with a deep, religious education.

My own position is one that notices the divergent and combative religious positions along with the observation that Religions - to be continuous - require a massive embedding and constant reinforcement in order to maintain their hold on an indivdual.

Philosophies, otoh, require that a person only think....choose and re-consider. Plus, there are no deity-imposed "penalties" for this activity in a philosophy.

Recent times lend creedence to the idea that Religions are outstanding excuses for the rationalization and justification of the most outrageous of human behaviours.

And we thought The Crusades were the campaigns of "silly, uneducated, fearful, but dedicated morons."

Apparently, that description still applies - to all religionists.... despite the tepid mewlings of the Values that are, supposedly, Universal.

Pave writes, Thank you, Pave, I take that as a compliment. May I?

After all, one of my major courses at http://www.mta.ca in the late 40's was Philosophy of Religion, not, "The dogmas of True Religion". I began my theological career exploring "what is truth", not as a brainwashed-believer of some infallible dogma.

Indeed, a compliment it was.

Meanwhile and to maintain some congruence with the thread title, I put it to interested readers that the "psychosis of religion" is one which - to be an effective strategy of change and internal congruency - will have to be addresses by religionists themselves.....as it applies to their own Religions!

In other threads and other sites as well as in the media, I am constantly reminded that it is incumbent on me to "respect" others' Religions.

In truth, however, I would be remiss if I suggested my own position on these matters was only bordering on tolerance.

In religious conflicts, the "enemy" may be without, but I suggest the "enemy" is also and, perhaps moreso - within. That is, our psychotic beliefs about our own Religions are the triggers for much of our responses to the Religions of others.

This, while our own Religions have no more basis in demonstrated benefits than the next guy's.

I don´t know specifically about schizophrenia. I think religions are a collection of mental illnesses.
What I find strange is that talking to trees is considered odd, but talking to an invisible friend up there somewhere is OK.
Aren´t there a lot of studies in neuro-theology confirming "addictive crutch behaviour" in the "hope business"?

I find lying to oneself and collective ego-centricity by far more depressing.

There is more purpose and meaning, morality and honesty, as well as beauty in just four bars of Shostakovich´s Violin Concerto than the entire religious nonsense.

Interesting comment, AB. But think for a moment about what you are saying. Are you seriously saying that a religion that motivates people to keep their bodies healthy--and healthy religions do--and to use their bodies to be of service to themselves, others and the ecology--and healthy religions do--is a disease?

By the way, I believe that a healthy religion can be, and should be, of great social value. Without thinking ill of those who feel that they can talk to God, as an invisible friend, without behaving like insane fanatics, I do not talk to a god, up there--one with physical attributes like us.

I think of the mysterious forces of gravity and electro-magnetism as real forces. So, too, are the mysteries of space and time. Do you? Spiritually speaking, I feel that I am in some way, mysteriously, connected with to these "things", which seem to interpenetrate every cell of my being. To these great mysteries, without insisting that others must follow and feel the same as I do, I give the name GØD. This Spirit, beyond, around and witin inspires me to be prosperous and healthy and to help others, who ask for help, to do the same. If this be illness, I would like to know how you define health.

I agree. Perhaps "talking to an invisible friend up there somewhere" is....I would call it a child-lik and immature behaviour, not an illness. I also agree that just as there are some very sick minds in this world, there are also be some very sick spirits, with sick religions. And I do think, and feel, that human beings are spiritual beings, not just mental ones. I would love to hear your dialogue on that.

Thanks for stretching my mind.

Well, Lindsay. I know that you have already made one Giant Leap during your life, that of: deciding to give up traditional, dogmatic religious beliefs and to take on a more "universal" and all-encompassing position.

However, I also notce that you are open to accepting/respecting/tolerating the religious views of others - a very humane and politically-correct position.

Still, although uncomfortable, the next logical and reasonable leap is in coming to the conclusion that these positions which you now tolerate or respect are the positions of the delusional. Only the radicalism of the behaviours is in question.

It's not a strectch to be more accepting of the behaviours of milquetoast-Christians than it is to accept the behaviours of a radical, fundamentalist Islamist bent on Jihad.

I suggest that Religions - all of them - are the manifestations of the Mad. The "rub" is that, after generations of conditioning, the position seems quite..... normal.

So normal, in fact, that there is no particular reason to call them into question.

I understand that, by Law, I am required to be only tolerant of others' Religions. Not respectful. Not accepting. Only tolerant.

And it is a struggle.

Pave, do you take this postion regarding all movements dedicated to the social good of all people, and whose purpose it is to pomote an understanding of the nature, function and mystery of spirituality?

Or are you a total and absolute materialist?

To the contrary, Lindsay. I have a "spiritual" component in my own belief-set, but I expect no one to share the position.... although I know some do.

My argument - consistent with this thread-title - is with organised, deity-based Religions... of all kinds.

These are the "mad" leading the "blind" to bizarre conclusions, erratic behaviours and confrontations with other, equally screwed-up Religions.

From what I know of your "belief-set", I think that I do. And I am sure so would the rest of us at:
http://www.pathwayschurch.ca/about/
It certainly takes a non-theistic approach to spirituality. The things I used to write about, cogitate and meditate on in the old TWB forum, beginning in 1998, came into manifestation. This happened last December, and the program is growing. What a Christmas gift that was!

Hello


I have difficulties understanding what you´ve written.
What is this about healthy bodies and religions? Why would one need a religion to motivate one to be healthy? And what is a healthy religion?
And what EXACTLY is this great social value of religion?
And how did you leap, mysteriously (wink), from the laws of physics to god and the supernatural (spiritual)?

Interesting questions. If you really are interested in dialogue, not just debate, about possibilities, stay tuned.

Keep in mind: I do not believe in "A" god, of any one organized religion. My religion is best described as, Spirituanity--including any rational truths in all healthy religions. Check out 'pneumatology' in Wikipedia. Theologically speaking, I think of myself as being a unitheist--one who accepts that oneness of all that is as good.

Check my signature, below.

From Wikipedia: "Pneumatology is the study of spiritual beings and phenomena."

What evidence is there that these beings and phenomena exist?

Rick, It seems to me that this is one of the primary reasons for doing a scientific inquiry. Such an inquiry could determine whether or not there is a valid answer to your question. It may very well be that materialism is the end-all and be-all. If so, so be it.

May I be so bold as to suggest the following: A thorough and scientific study of somatology, psychology, and penumatology, leading to an understanding of how they can be balanced, could have some good, valuable, and non-sectarian, social results.

BTW, I think I was one of the early contributors to this article--the one on pneumatology--in Wikipedia.

As I expected, you didn´t actually answer the questions at all. I did subject myself to the entry on pneumatology. What a load of complete and utter IRRATIONAL tosh.

Why don´t you just admit your mallaise "vis a vis" REALITY?

You may find this quite interesting. <my comments at the end>

Series Title: Psychology, Religion, and
Spirituality<http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/series/Psychology%252c%2bReligion%252c%2band%2bSpirituality.aspx>
Description: Spiritual practices, or awakenings, have an impact on brain,
mind and personality. These changes are being scientifically predicted and
proven. For example, studies show Buddhist priests and Franciscan nuns at
the peak of religious feelings show a functional change in the lobes of
their brain. Similar processes have been found in people with epilepsy,
which Hippocrates called "the sacred disease." New research is showing that
not only does a person's brain activity change in particular areas while
that person is experiencing religious epiphany, but such events can be
created for some people, even self-professed atheists, by stimulating
various parts of the brain. In this far-reaching and novel set, experts from
across the nation and around the world present evolutionary, neuroscientific
and psychological approaches to explaining and exploring religion, inclu!
ding th e newest findings and evidence that have spurred the fledgling field
of neurotheology. It is not the goal of neurotheology to prove or disprove
the existence of God, but to understand the biology of spiritual
experiences. Such experiences seem to exist outside time and space - caused
by the brain for some reason losing its perception of a boundary between
physical body and outside world - and could help explain other intangible
events, such as altered states of consciousness, possessions, alien
visitations, near-death experiences and out-of-body events. Understanding
them - as well as how and why these abilities evolved in the brain - could
also help us understand how religion contributes to survival of the human
race. Eminent contributors to this set help us answer questions including:
How does religion better our brain function? What is the difference between
a religious person and a terrorist who kills in the name ! of reli gion? Is
there one site or function in the brain necessary for religious experience?
LC Card Number: 2006021770
LCC Class: BL53
Dewey Class: 200
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that it is quite necessary to understand what one perceives as a spiritual experience.I am fortunate enough to be inolved in the field of science and 'stimulating' the brain I have done in a controlled and uncontrolled environment. Although I am an atheist , the various experiences I have had (induced and other) could easily be perceived as religious/spiritual .This is not the way I perceive it but am really interested in finding out more about what happens on the biological side of things in the brain and what other unknown areas/resources could be harnassed.

Culture writes.

IMO, as I understand things, GØD is existence, not a being who exists. I do not have to prove that, I simply experience it.To think of GØD as a personal, or concrete, being who exists is to commit idolatry.

Culture, if you are an atheist, please define atheism for me.

I believe in existence. Does that mean that I am not an atheist? If so, that would imply that there are no atheists, because I have never heard anyone deny existence (except by suicide, perhaps).

Now you know why I say to people: "Your deeds tell me more of what you truly believe than do your creeds." There are numerous creedal Christians who are what I call practical atheists. IMO, true atheism is a philosophy which embraces indifference, cynicism, nihilism and the like. Devout atheists think of life as "a dirty trick" (Hemmingway--Farewell to Arms).

BTW, I am not the first one to express this concept. A guy named Jesus--not a creedal Jew, or Christian--taught the same concept 2000 years ago. Read Luke 10:25-37--the parable of the Good Samaritan--not a creedal Jew.

Do you own a modern version of the Bible? Just curious.

I was wondering what experiences you had and how you induced them.

I also believe that God is not a person, it is the Universe and the mystery of our evolution and conscious.

If one accepts the premise of this thread-title, a "universality-of-sorts" position could be construed as "healthy".

As history and current events demonstrate: following dogma to some ultimate conclusions tends to render up some ludicrous, counter-productive, bizarre and downright terrifying behaviours.

Plus, there are enough wing-nuts out here with no Religious affiliations to keep everybody busy.

The belief that theism is false (or that there are no gods) because it is epistemologically unjustified and/or metaphysically unnecessary.