Silke Lance
Aug 01, 2004, 07:57 AM
Fahrenheit 9/11
One of the most controversial and provocative films of the year, Fahrenheit 9/11 is Academy Award-winning filmmaker Michael Moore's searing examination of the Bush administration's actions in the wake of the tragic events of 9/11.
With his characteristic humor and dogged commitment to uncovering the facts, Moore considers the presidency of George W. Bush and where it has led us. He looks at how - and why - Bush and his inner circle avoided pursuing the Saudi connection to 9/11, despite the fact that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis and Saudi money had funded Al Qaeda. Fahrenheit 9/11 shows us a nation kept in constant fear by FBI alerts and lulled into accepting a piece of legislation, the USA Patriot Act, that infringes on basic civil rights. It is in this atmosphere of confusion, suspicion and dread that the Bush Administration makes its headlong rush towards war in Iraq Рand Fahrenheit 9/11 takes us inside that war to tell the stories we haven't heard, illustrating the awful human cost to U.S. soldiers and their families.
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Want to know more?
Go to:
http://www.fahrenheit911.com
OR
http://www.michaelmoore.com
anonymust
Aug 01, 2004, 01:41 PM
Rick
Sep 30, 2004, 02:50 PM
Fahrenheit 911 is now available on DVD from
Amazon.com for $18.82.
Dan
Sep 30, 2004, 04:15 PM
Fahrenheit 9/11 is an op ed 'propaganda' piece aimed at motivating the ignorant masses to vote against Bush. I'm not saying that the intended end (voting Bush out of office) is intrinsically wrong because the means (the film) is dubious, but that the means (the film) is, in fact, propaganda.
Rick
Oct 01, 2004, 07:43 AM
Yes, indeed. Since the radical right has an entire network (Fox News) for propaganda, I think it's good and fair that movie makers are rallying to the cause. I recommend Michael Moore's book, Dude, Where's My Country? which explains his motivation quite well.
Dan
Oct 01, 2004, 11:42 AM
to be fair, the 'radical right' media is no more radical than the 'radical left' CNN and CBS news (remember Rather's imaginary memos?). Maybe it is the contrast which makes FOX seem so radical, as for the longest time the media has been decidedly left slanted. When compared against this left slant, the rightward slant seems really extreme. I would say the natural competitor against Fahrenheit 9/11 would be the Swift boat veterans who are bombarding us with Kerry's anti-war soundbites in order to make him look like a traitor.
Rick
Oct 01, 2004, 12:16 PM
It's ironic isn't it? Kerry helped to shorten the Vietnam war, making him doubly the hero.
Dan
Oct 01, 2004, 02:33 PM
one could argue that the fallout of 'failure' in Vietnam left a powerful legacy which we are still affected by today. One could further argue that this 'failure' was not inevitable, but was assumed to be true and thus was made to happen. If Kerry was a critical link in such an unnecessary 'failure', he is no hero
Rick
Oct 01, 2004, 02:50 PM
Of course, that's a very big "if." We were doomed to failure, not by realistic young men protesting that the emperor was naked, but by the imperialists themselves, who thought we could fight a war without having the stomach to face Russia and China directly by sinking their ships that were continually bringing war materials to the Viet Cong.
As we weren't prepared to fight the war in an intelligent and realistic manner, being there was stupid from the start. Kerry was right, and therefore doubly the hero for it.
Dan
Oct 01, 2004, 04:37 PM
the (not so) funny thing about Vietnam conflict is that France started it and a democratic president escalated it from a minor engagement to a major engagement.
anyway,
I'm not convinced that the premature pullout was the best possible outcome. Since we can never know for certain, we can only assume what would have been the best possible outcome according to our view of the situation. My view is as a kid who grew up to parents who were members of your generation, so I lack a first-hand view but I have observed the historical accounts and have first hand experience with the legacy of your generation which is not insignificant. I understand how you can have the slant that you have, as you were a kid at the time and had to risk your life in a cause that seemed terribly wrong to you. Kerry is a hero in such a light. I do not believe that you (or most of your generation) necessarily saw the big picture simply because of your participation, but certainly you had great interest in action because your lives were at stake. I also believe that you would maintain a significant degree of any vitriol you may have developed as a consequence of this tumultuous experience, and I would be surprised if such feelings did not factor strongly into your current political decision making.
Rick
Oct 02, 2004, 11:45 AM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Oct 01, 12:42 PM) |
| to be fair, the 'radical right' media is no more radical than the 'radical left' CNN and CBS news (remember Rather's imaginary memos?)... |
Dan, it seems to me that CBS is rather centrist and CNN leans to the right. Perhaps you have no experience with truly leftist media, but they have no TV stations. The far left was outlawed and totally suppressed in this country in the 1950s.
What's really ironic is that the old communist slogan "workers of the world unite" is so apt today. The reason that out-sourcing American jobs to the third world countries is so profitable is that the workers there are totally exploited, having no rights to collective bargaining as they do here in this, a free country.
The best way to balance the trade here again is to export trade unionism (yes, the old communist agenda) by giving rights to workers overseas. Wages will rise for workers of the world, they will have more purchasing power, American workers will again be competitive in the world, and world prosperity will come at last, with an end of struggle, paving the way for everlasting world peace.
Now before you call me an optimistic Polyanna, I am fundamentally a cynic who knows that the above is a best-case scenario, and is very unlikely to actually occur. We cynics (yes, I know you are a cynic too) will continue to be entertained by folly on the world stage for many years to come.
Dan
Oct 02, 2004, 12:55 PM
| QUOTE |
| Dan, it seems to me that CBS is rather centrist and CNN leans to the right. Perhaps you have no experience with truly leftist media, but they have no TV stations. The far left was outlawed and totally suppressed in this country in the 1950s. |
I guess it's a matter of perspective, eh? what is defined as 'left' and 'right' changes with the times. I certainly don't agree with your assessment about CNN as 'right' and FOX as 'extreme right', but then we both have different experiences and our judgments are relative to those experiences.
| QUOTE |
| What's really ironic is that the old communist slogan "workers of the world unite" is so apt today. The reason that out-sourcing American jobs to the third world countries is so profitable is that the workers there are totally exploited, having no rights to collective bargaining as they do here in this, a free country. |
the question is, if we did not outsource any employment would those countries that we currently outsource to see a general increase in their present quality of living and/or have the ability to maintain a satisfactory quality of living? In any case, can not those countries that are supposedly being abused make their own labor laws to protect themselves?
| QUOTE |
| Now before you call me an optimistic Polyanna, I am fundamentally a cynic who knows that the above is a best-case scenario, and is very unlikely to actually occur. We cynics (yes, I know you are a cynic too) will continue to be entertained by folly on the world stage for many years to come. |
I wouldn't call you an optimist, I would call you an idealist. As for cyicism, that would be unfortunate and I don't believe it. Perhaps you would do better to refer to yourself as a skeptic?
Rick
Oct 02, 2004, 01:19 PM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Oct 02, 01:55 PM) |
| ... In any case, can not those countries that are supposedly being abused make their own labor laws to protect themselves?... |
Yes, in theory, they could. But what I mean by "exporting trade unionism" is what Bush said he wouldn't do (nation building) before he started doing it in Iraq (yes, that's a flip flop). By helping our fellow nations build democracy and civil rights we will be both helping their liberty and their prosperity. Recall that the rise of the middle class in this country was driven by labor. Our constitutional guarantee of free speech gives us the right to collectively bargain to balance the power of the corporations.
I don't know if you 1) work for a living like most people, 2) own your own business, or 3) are wealthy and don't have to work at all, but I like to remind my Republican friends who do work, that if they like the 40 hour work week, they can thank the labor movement. If it were up to the corporations we would all be working 60 to 80 hours a week for less pay, as was the practice at the beginning of the 20th century.
A skeptic, technically (philosophical definition), is someone who doubts our ability to really know anthing for sure. A cynic is someone who generally suspects sinister motivations in other people, and maybe he is even acquainted with the existence of the ignoble in himself. I think it's possible to know things well enough to take meaningful action, so I'm not a skeptic, and I've lived long enough to understand human nature, so I tend toward cynicism, but I like to try to see the idealism in others too. Otherwise, there would be no hope. I have seen authentic good in the world and in others, so I know that there is considerable hope.
Unknown
Oct 02, 2004, 01:23 PM
cynicism seems positively correlated with age unfortunately.
Dan
Oct 02, 2004, 01:41 PM
| QUOTE |
| A skeptic, technically (philosophical definition), is someone who doubts our ability to really know anthing for sure. |
I was thinking of a skeptic as someone who doubts as a matter of principle, not as one who believes that knowledge is intrinsically incomplete. The distinction is that the doubting is not due to believing in the impossibility of complete knowledge, but is due to the desire to avoid unwarranted belief. I see both views reflected in the dictionary definition:
2 a : the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain
(yours)
b : the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism characteristic of skeptics
(mine)
| QUOTE |
| . I think it's possible to know things well enough to take meaningful action, so I'm not a skeptic, |
according to my interpretation of 'skeptic', you still qualify
| QUOTE |
| and I've lived long enough to understand human nature, so I tend toward cynicism, but I like to try to see the idealism in others too. Otherwise, there would be no hope. I have seen authentic good in the world and in others, so I know that there is considerable hope. |
sounds like you are an optimist whose optimism has been tempered by reality. Perhaps a dash of skepticism can help protect that optimism and channel it in useful directions?
| QUOTE |
| I don't know if you 1) work for a living like most people, 2) own your own business, or 3) are wealthy and don't have to work at all, but I like to remind my Republican friends who do work, that if they like the 40 hour work week, they can thank the labor movement. If it were up to the corporations we would all be working 60 to 80 hours a week for less pay, as was the practice at the beginning of the 20th century. |
I've spent a lot of time in academia scraping by and borrowing, but I have had lots of odd crap jobs and recently spent 4 months in Denver driving a taxicab for 70 hours per week. I'm back in the comfort and relative poverty of student academia, from which I intend to launch an interesting career.
Unknown
Oct 02, 2004, 01:47 PM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Oct 02, 01:41 PM) |
| recently spent 4 months in Denver driving a taxicab for 70 hours per week. |
ever see Collateral?
Dan
Oct 02, 2004, 01:48 PM
no
Unknown
Oct 02, 2004, 01:51 PM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Oct 02, 01:48 PM) |
| no |
it's just a movie that underscores the potentially interesting people you can meet driving taxis
Dan
Oct 02, 2004, 01:51 PM
ain't that the truth
Rick
Oct 02, 2004, 02:06 PM
Good luck in your career. Do you plan to be hired or do the hiring yourself? (if you don't mind my asking a personal question)
I had my own software business for about 10 years, but quit that to go back to schoool for my doctorate in computer science. I taught computer science full time for two years, but now I'm full time in the corporate world.
Dan
Oct 02, 2004, 02:15 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Oct 02, 03:06 PM) |
Do you plan to be hired or do the hiring yourself? (if you don't mind my asking a personal question)
|
I'm sure that I will start by being a hiree, and I haven't really thought much past that
Rick
Oct 02, 2004, 03:07 PM
Ah, then you will probably be working the standard 40-hour work-week, which I also do.
Unknown
Oct 31, 2004, 08:44 AM
George Bush is a failure and an embarrassment to the United States. I can't wait to see him voted from office in these coming days. If the unthinkable happens and he gets re-elected, then I hope someone snipers him real quick. Either that, or we do what Eminem suggested, and strap an ak47 to his back and drop him off in Iraq to fight his own war, that stupid a*shole.
flowerfairy
Oct 31, 2004, 02:06 PM
w4y do you 4ate bus4 unknown?
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