Picking up from the delusion of immortality thread, I am interested in anyones experience of breaking the consciousness feedback loop.

To expand a bit on what I mean, in daily activities our consciousness is aware of itself and observing what is going on. Yogis, and drug experimenters seem to have the ability to transcend the normal consciousness and witness an absolute singular experience.

This is a very tricky thing to describe and I am struggling to put it in words, i can only recomend you read the other thread before this one. I can only visualise this topic through a series of questions so i'll throw these open to the floor:

Do you have any experience of breaking the consciousness feedback loop?

Do you have any feelings on whether this experience is for real or is it just a further refinement of consciousness?

What is smallest granularity of consciousness?

Can consciousness be dissected until it no longer exists through meditation techniques and such?

Does anyone have any experience of consciousness that is like a state of primeval regression?

Thanks

Are you referring to the state where someone is said to be daydreaming?

People in this state are so predisposed with some distant thought that they are not aware of what is going on around them. They are so focussed, usually on something fairly irrelevant, that they are almost in a trance.

Or are you referring to the situation I often myself in? This is usually when I am doing something fairly complicated on my computer, which is totally absorbing me as I try to remember where I am up to and what I am trying to achieve. In this state, I often find that my wife has entered the room and we have exchanged a few simple words, almost without me being aware that she even entered the room. I can remember afterwards that she did indeed enter but have no idea of what she or I said! To her I appeared normal and she cannot understand why I did not do what I had agreed to do!

In both these situations I find I am not aware that I am aware, solely because of truly focussed thoughts.

Like i said; i'ts a difficult thing to describe

The experience comes from an intended action, such as meditation, perhaps if I describe what happens to me I can explain it a bit better...

When meditating I try to stop the babble in my brain from, um... babbling! Concentration on the idea of surrender has seemed to work best for me. So like an onion I can peel away the layers of trying to visualise things all time, then the layer of the little voice(s) in the back of my head, and finally I find I need to shut down my hearing ability and this proves the most difficult for me, but provided the room is quiet its not impossible.

So once all these layers are removed, you could say I was asleep or in a trance from observing me, but inside i'm still awake and in a new place. It is a place I have also been to from taking drugs like pot and sally. What I experience is basically like a humm that surrounds me, I believe it is a humm of consciousness alone.

At this point things tend to happen, visual and auditory things that do not relate to external stimulus or from internal stimulus, i.e. thinking, or me willing things to happen. So in this state I have a hypothesis which is contrary to Shawns position. I feel I am no longer an observer of consciouness, I am conciousness or some such new age phrase

So the question is, am I still observing myself doing something? If for example I were to do this in a MRI scanner, would the doctors nurses see any observable brain activity associated with the experience?

The point of this post thread to collect poeples ideas of what this state is and whether they have experienced it, I think Shawns been there and has a different idea of what it is. Maybe he'll post his experience? but others are welcome, and indeed essential because Shawn and I wish to see other peoples views.

why would one care whether or not one is breaking a 'consciousness feedback loop', or internal dialogue? Such a 'quieting' is merely a symptom of clarity, or total understanding. Understand, and ye shall be quiet

Because "one" wants to find out what is beyond

laz,

..only when it's believed breaking this loop will lead to understanding, it is necessary to attempt breaking it. Any kind of experience can be had, but 'enlightenment' [for lack of a better word] is not experiential, it's the simple recognition of oneness [for lack of a better word]...

Sorry, I cannot subscribe.

Experience and knowledge are the only two things I see are worth pushing for in this life.

To experience enlightenment is one thing, but to understand it; that is truely worth pursuing.

Just came across a sutra by a zen master named Hui-neng, he said:

'If you want to understand, see into it directly, but when you begin to think about it, it is altogether missed.'

laz,

Experience and knowledge are the only two things I see are worth pushing for in this life.

- ..which is perfectly fine, and you'll have any kind of experience you set your mind to...

To experience enlightenment is one thing, but to understand it; that is truely worth pursuing.

- ..enlightenment is often refered to as freedom. Why should this freedom by limited to specific conditions for attaining it?

'If you want to understand, see into it directly, but when you begin to think about it, it is altogether missed.'

- ..who are you, but your thoughts, laz?

--------------------

Kaufmann,


but surely you have not experienced any and all experiences, and so you speak from very limited experience. Doesn't that concern you, Guest?

- ..no, it doesn't. Why should it?

if the simple recognition of oneness is really what enlightenment is all about [for lack of a better word], then why does enlightenment [for lack of a better word] elude so many people?

- ..because people believe differently...

Perhaps because you're not talking about enlightenment as most people understand the term, but are merely talking about the recognition or belief in 'oneness', which is not the same as enlightenment. Still think you're enlightened? I don't.

- ..there is not one to become enlightened. Enlightenment is the state of being, now. Concepts created by wishes and experiences following it, create a tapestry of necessaty, order and belief. Ofcourse nothing of this has to do with any of THAT...

So to be clear, you're defining enlightenment as a state of being characterized by recognition of oneness?

What sort of recognition do you mean? Is recognition of oneness the same as belief in oneness, is it a perception of oneness, an experience of oneness, or something else?

Kaufmann: So to be clear, you're defining enlightenment as a state of being characterized by recognition of oneness?

- ..as far as labeling goes, that would be a fair assesment. Enlightenment is not dependant on anything, not even recognition. It always is in spite of conditions put upon it, e.i. a means to attain it, or ignorance...

What sort of recognition do you mean?

- ..recognition is always of something known. That means that recognition of oneness can only be when oneness is known. This knowing is not individualized, it is through the illusion of individuality [separation] oneness manifests...

Is recognition of oneness the same as belief in oneness, is it a perception of oneness, an experience of oneness, or something else?

- ..no beliefs are necessary, perception is a lie and experiences can take on any form or shape one desires, and requires an experiencer. There is no doing involved what this recognition is concerned, it is a natural process which is beyond control, altough at the time it appeared to have been instigated by someone. So, it would be something else...

.........

Laz: This may be your answer, but it is not yet mine. I may well conclude that you are right, but I am not there yet.

- ..this is the wonderfull part; there's no getting there, you've never left...

Do you want to try and convince me?

- ..how is that possible? No, what we can do is communicate, engage a conversation and through this inward/outward flow anything can arise...

Kaufmann: but this underdetermines enlightenment since many states fit this description.

- ..what many states?

So you're saying that enlightenment is many states? How many? Can you further describe them?

- ..no, that is what you are saying. First explain what you mean, please...

so you're saying that oneness manifests itself through an illusion?

- ..the recognition of oneness, yes. Should've been clearer on that...

Doesn't this undermine your argument that enlightenment is characterized by oneness, which you seem to be saying is an illusion?

- ..no, not if all is illusion. The dream has certain characteristics; gravity, matter, light and so on, but it's still a dream...

Kaufman, "guest"'s philosophy can be better understood by going here, where you may recognize another local named 'Joesus' by the name 'Maha'. I suspect that 'guest' is one of Joesus' little tools, preaching the 'ascension' religion here as some sort of 'lesson'

I said

Knowledge will come from understanding not from thinking too much about understanding, of that I am sure.

Does anyone have any knowldege to share?

..'guest' decided to register as ephrem for a little bit more clarity, seeing how these post are contributed to be someone else entirely. What these posts point at has nothing to do with religion, techniques, followers, holy books, deities or beliefs, but everything with the obvious that is ovelooked when searching for it...

Laz, this search for truth of yours, does it have conditions or are you prepared to even die if that means that you 'get' it?

hmm, interesting thought...

I believe that if I was to die today, then I would do so happily. However I have most recently considered death to be an active force that is trying to kill me.

To think that I should kill myself to find the answers I seek is a little perplexing. I had not considered that an option until now, and now I think about it, I feel it would be something I should consider only after exploring all other possibilities, which I am far from doing.

When that day comes though, yes I would be prepared to die to find the answers I am seeking.

laz,

..in all religion death plays a vital role to come to understanding. After death there's ressurection, but it's not meant to be taken literally. Death means the surrender to the unknown, the release of everything you hold dear [in the mind], to let-go of the conditions that obscures the unconditional. Ofcourse, when there's enjoyment of exploring all possibilities, by all means, emerse in it, love it, be it...

Ok, stay consistent for me ephrem ;0) I do not follow any religion, i think that organised religion is bad, if i have a religion, it is my own and it contains one god, and one follower, and they're the same.

For me death means pyshical death, not some metaphorical meaning. so was your original question about real death or metaphorical death?

..it was about the willingness to die in whatever form. To give up everything you hold dear if that would mean you 'get' it. Religion of itself is of no importance, and altough it is necessary to invent the wheel all over again if it's about truth, where you are countless 'others' have been aswell...

Laz, this sense of being an individual; does it hold secrets, does it fear dissapearing, does it fear nakedness and being seen for what it is?

I see where this is going

You're just another salesman with a product to sell.

if you say so

I did say so.

well good for you

Thank you, thank you very muuch
Does that mean that you believe me and its true?

this is silly, but fun

No Elvis, did you think I would believe you?

I didn't think you really meant "if you say so," more a lack of quick comback and a last resort to a feeling of nowhere to go.

Quick comeback, on a bulletin board!

I'm sorry I don't live up you your expectations of me, but then i'm sure I don't want to. I thought the game was cheesy replies?

Not living up to my expectations would be a wise choice, one that would not be a codependant projection of a box. However assuming I had any expectations would be presumptuous, keep breaking those boxes down Laz.
This is your game Laz. Cheese it is.

I wasn't aware of the game having an owner, but if it is to be me, then i call it off

A game of one is no game, there must be an opponent, a counterpart, or an enemy. My game is also yours, you can choose to play or not.

I choose not to play a game in my life, therefore i will not play any more games here.

..it's good not to play games, and that post was sincere Laz, without a product to peddle, without a point in being. Still, a simple yes or no to that question does suffice...

If joesus is Laz, why is he talking to himself quite openly via the internet?

He quite obviously is playing a game.
And he fears losing.
He also seems to fear reality.

Our language is being used in such a way as to confuse. Questions are answered with questions. Statements that cannot be proved or disproved are frequently made.
There is no point in participating in discussion.
The one thing I have learned is that enlightenment is losing all ones weight!

An interesting diversion we've had

I'm guessing that the original question has not been answered by anyone because either no-one knows what i'm talking about, or i'm on my own with this experience?

In either case I would still like peoples comments if they think they have come near the experience, and I will do some research of my own

I find the diversion of Joesus playing with himself rather passe


as for the quieting of internal dialogue, it happens to me all the time when I'm focused in action. The entirety of my experience is unified in the focus of that action and there is no 'consciousness feedback loop' awareness. Only later, upon reflection, can I realize that I was such a state

Cool, it's amazing what can be achieved without actually thinking about it. I keep catching myself mid-flow and thinking wow, i was doing that without any internal monolog

..where are 'you' when thought is absent? Is silence really broken by thoughts babbling? Is there even any doing without an internal monolog? Absence of thought is a neat experience, and if you work hard enough it'll probably last a lifetime...

Here is something i was discussing with mario earlier:

I have been trying to build an analogy for how i see the human brain working...

Regardless of centres of specialty, the human brain for me is like a spiders web with a spider sitting at the middle. The spider represents your consciousness and the web the automatic part of the brain/body.

I think the brain/body is capable of much automation, so in the sense of the spiders web; it can catch flys on its own without any thinking going on. So that side of the human situation is the part that is cells and conforms to basic science principles that can be observered. I beleive the problem comes then when you abstract this thinking to any machine of sufficient complexity and say that in all cases it will become conscious.

What is a web without a spider? sure it can catch flys and other insects, but what then? without a spider representing conciousness it is nothing but a machine.

So the spider is our consciouness and it has a leg on each part of the web listening for vibrations. When it gets one, it can react and go and spin the fly in its web, and eat it or save it for later.

It is the spider that contains our soul that is the part that cannot be explained as just another machine running on the same platform.

That is a rather glorified illusion of the ego thinking that stuff happens to you and you are still the master, only a master with a greater sense of intelligence than you are able to bottle up in a jar.

ephrem posted something of greater value than playing with concepts. There is a question that can be answered ragarding the silence, and awareness.
As he said, "experiencing the silence is a neat experience." The mind is fascinated by its ability to have experiences but eventually it will get bored with its experiences and search for something more.

In the Eastern and Western philosophies and religions, the silence is tangible and has been given many names.
Consciousness resides within the silence but it does anything but wait for something to come along and happen.
The absolute is the essence of all matter of creation both within the experience of linear time and otherwise.
Thoughts are a natural part of the association of conscious awareness and the physical world, even witnessing as you have described originally in this thread is still a thought.
Rather than floating on the surface levels of the ego's 5-10% level of the brain, thought at the deeper levels of the mind are much more expansive and often when the awareness dips into that part it does not retain what it normally comprehends on the surface.
Sort of like a 5 year old sitting in on a college level physics lecture the mind of the 5 year old is not conditioned to accept that level of thought and will not retain or even be interested in what is being introduced into the environment.
To try and remove thought during meditation forces the mind into something un-natural and stresses the nervous system.
Allowing thoughts to be a part of the meditational process will allow the mind to go deeper and access the deeper levels of the mind and its thinking by natural process. The mind is naturally drawn inward to deeper levels of thought but it is only our active attention on thoughts that keeps it in the shallows.
On the surface we think some 100,000 thoughts per day. At deeper levels the thoughts are not repetative and much more coherent.
Follow any thought to its source and you will find the silence, but it is consciousness that stimulates the silence, which creates the direction of energy into awareness and manifestation.
The mind and the body are a funtional unit and together are given direction by consciousness. If you limit consciousness to self consciousness you will fail to see that all that is created is the result of consciousness and you will isolate yourself and all other parts of creation as being the result of a separation of consciousness-es.
The mind is an extension of consciousness and the body an extension of the mind and the world an extension of the body, it all comes from one source and one consciousness.
The soul is the shell for the personality, the cosmic ego which is the reflection of desire, Gods desire to create a physically functioning aspect of itself at different dimensional levels, both in and out of the experience of time, and it is not by any means limited to linear time and any of its boundaries.

Yes, ego is part of the spider, I was not trying to hide that
What this is about is communication with your fellow members!

So we are playing with our members................

ha ha