I recently received an unsolicited christian pamphlet and happened to glance at it's contents.  In a nutshell, it presented the following argument:

Premise 1:    We're all sinners.

Premise 2:    Jesus died on the Cross for all of our sins.

Conclusion:   We should all be grateful to Jesus.



What is sin but a fiction and illusion?   The above argument does not win me over because I do not accept their Premise 1.    I do not believe in the objectivity of sin.  'Sin' is simply a mental conception with no objectivity, and as such, it is a mere phantasm and delusion.

Ergo, the above christian argument is false and thus there has been shown no basis for being grateful to jesus, assuming this person even ever existed.

well then just redefine sin and you cant help but feel grateful to Jesus!
"give thanx and praises! give thanx and praises!"

bbut ok, the idea that God, the Supreme Omniscient Omnipotent Perfect Summum Bonum created us -inherently flawed, well that's a funny idea i cant really wrap my head around.

i think whats happening (and im not talking about anybody here) is like when you try to tell somebody something by anology or parable or similie or whatevr, sometimes they get it right away, but sometimes they dont see the meaning so they reject it as meaningless. which it is, becuz a symbol is useless if you dont kno what its supposed to symbolize
but then theres those people that dont see the meaning, but they take it literally and accept all the details of the anology as facts, completely missing what its all about

Not only do I disagree with the sin deal, I disagree with the rest of it.

If you don't take things literally, veda, how can you truly understand it? You'd only have a vague conception.

In any religious Faith, a sin is to do something which that religion says you should not do. Choose your Faith!

Religions apart, I think there are some things which people should not do, without expecting consequences.
Murder is one of them.
Terrorist acts is another.
There are many more, chosen for avoidance to protect the individual or the Society in which he lives.
The reason for such [sinful] acts needs to be taken into account.
I would murder anyone who rapes or kills my wife!
I don't care if I go to jail for it or not. My wife is my life, so her murder is my death! I would take into account the reasons behind the action.

Being non-religious, I still accept that there are some things people should not do without severe consequences.

Whilst sin may be an illusion or fiction, the fact remains that some things done by some people are intolerable for other people!

Best regards, Bill.

QUOTE

...If you don't take things literally, veda, how can you truly understand it? You'd only have a vague conception.

hmmm maybe i said that bad. let me give you an example of what im talkin about and you will get it right away and see how it applies to other things.
during a psychological evaluation, doctors will often ask something like "what is the meaning of the expression 'a rolling stone gathers no moss'?"  if you go around asking people this youll get a whole bunch of different creative ways to explain it.
but what if you get some guy that goes into a long boring explanation about how moss is a living plant and requires certain conditions to grow, and all the reasons moss wont grow on a rolling stone.
if you ask him about "strike while the iron is hot" he goes into metallurgy. if you ask him if "strike while the iron is hot" could be an expression used about something in the real estate business, he cant think of how it might apply.
so thats just one blatant example of somebody not grasping the bigger significance of something.

here is a cute one: in Mr. Rogers parenting book, he tells this story about meeting a 5yo who says"Mr. Rogers! How did you get out of the box?" so Mr. Rogers explained that he was a real person and he lived in a regular house with his family. the boy nodded all through the explanation and says, "But how will you get back into the box?!"
maybe the boy felt that Mr. Rogers was dodging the real issue: you belong in the tv and here you are out of it! whats to be done?
in that same way zen parables might seem like they are just a way of dodging questions, and the bible thumpers might feel we are trying to avoid the true issue by discussing wether sin is real or not.

...you gotta think outside the box! [img]http://brainmeta.com/YaBBImages/smilies/cwm16.gif[/img] heehee!

Ending note: This is a long ass post, i don't blame anyone for not reading it.

There are a couple of things I want to add to this discussion. First...

Shawn, there is so much more wrong to that statement than what you think.
You're right about the first part. Sin can't be experienced objectively. Sin is primarily subjective. Not only that but it doesn't actually exist. Our culture and environment has formed conceptions of right and wrong that we believe to be such. Sometimes it gets to a 'it just is answer.' If it ever boils down to that I'd say you lost your entire arguement.
Jesus' existence can be proven. There are many documentations of him in the Bible and in other history books. Josephus, an early Christian historian wrote a lot about him. (You could say that these references can't be used because they are in the Bible and/or tainted by Christians. The consequences for that are too great. The Bible is full of myths. There is too much evidence and documentation to say that he didn't exist at all.)
I doubt he died for our sins. If he did, I doubt he even knew about it. Jesus thought the world was flat just like anyone else in that time period. He didn't have any extra insight into his situation unlike many people assume.
I do think he died on a Roman Cross under Pontious Pilot. I doubt he was ressurected in three days.

I'm not sure if we should all be greatful to Jesus for saving us from our sins. For starters, we can't prove that Jesus came back to life in three days. Science says the brain incurs great amounts of damage within minutes of death. If he died and came back his body wouldn't be able to function because the brain would no longer be able to tell the body what to do. I think that makes sense.

That's just my perspective. I've read Christian theology, heard all the arguements about the big issues (from credible people), then stopped being a Christian.

If you want to beleive after hearing the arguements it is a huge leap of faith.

1. what is good or bad? neitzsche says it doesn't exist.
2. did jesus die for our sins? you can't prove that except by what the biased disciples said about Jesus. even then, the bible says a lot of different things about the reason that Jesus died.
Conclusion. I'm greatful to Jesus of Nazareth because without his attempts at social reform in Gallalie he probably wouldn't have been brutally murdered. If he wasn't brutally murdered by the biggest enemy of the Jews (at that time) I doubt anyone would have worshiped him so much. The Church (in a universal sense) wouldn't have been formed. The political and social structures that developed in the last two millinia wouldn't have developed quite the same.

Just my take on it.

-joesus-

interesting wrighting on illusion, i think.

I am responding only because there are things I find in this post amusing in their significance and presentation.
I liked the post and I agree with most of what you are trying to present but I just wanted to point out what my eye caught.
Crusifiction-- although spelled differently than Crucifixion I find the relevance to your post fascinating.
IF it was intended then it was brilliant and if not then it goes to show that even out of the mouth of innocense comes truth.
There are a lot of beliefs surrounding the actual events of the Crucifixion. God being so unprepared for the many events of the world was obviously suprised when he was nailed to the cross. Don't ya think?
When Jesus was crucified did he relieve us of our sins? Did he die as a martyr for our sins?



Ya think? I had a thought once...
Actually you are mostly right, Opinions are like assholes and everyone has one right?
But seriously Sin is illusion based on the dreams of the ego. Separation, fear, limitation and mortality, are realities based on the foundations of limited beliefs. Sin has been called wrong thinking, as opposed to right thinking because certain thoughts lead upward and expand consciousness and others lead away from expansion and move outward towards denser realities.
Speaking relatively of course.

The idea that we were born of or in sin has its relevance in thinking. In the Eastern traditions the sin refers to the karmic wheel of Samsara. The birth and rebirth of the soul into physical form to continue his thought process in creating reality as it is beleived and desired. Fame fortune suffering etc.
There is a saying and many stories revolving around this idea that whatever you are thinking of at the point of your death, you become. OH SHIT!

For those that were there at the crucifixion and for those that are here today that remember being there, the significance of the resurrection was in the physical barriers that were broken by Christ and the message that what he did all shall do and even greater things. Once one gives up lesser thoughts of being victim to circumstance, or a God that is outside of themselves and their creation, the true purpose of the crucifixion can be realized.

hi Joe,

how can you be contacted other than through the boards? If there's no other way, please click here: http://brainmeta.com/yabbse/index.php?boa...d=;action=chat;

thanks,
Shawn

Shawn,
My e-mail address is agniishaya@yahoo.com

the biggest sin of humanity is humanity's ignorances :-)
and thats how i see it folks ......

Interesting statement. You might talk more about this.

Erasmus of Rotterdamn, a theologian during the Great Reformation, agreed with this. He said that humanity could better itself greatly by educating itself more. He's badass.

Sin is simply a transgression against the will of God. God created Man with free will, and when we do something that conflicts with what God expects of us, that is a "sin".

The Christian argument is that because of Man's weakness before temptation, we all fall victim to it, and we all sin. However, by acclaiming Jesus Christ as your Lord (in other words, your ultimate role model), and by doing your best to live your life based on the doctrines he taught while he walked this earth, then God his Father will forgive you for your sins, and your soul will enter Heaven after your body expires.

Here is a definition of Sin as given by the enlightened masters.

Sin, acccording to the Scriptures, is the cause of death. Sin is every thought and feeling that is out of harmony with the purposes of life. These thoughts and feelings make up the opposition to life as it would express itself through the flesh.

To remove the obstruction would be the remedy, of course. Instead of perpetuating a consciousness that deprives the body of its sustaining power, thereby separating the body from consciousness in death, one should die to the false consciousness.

What is the purpose in life?
Man is the book of life, the law of God. The governing principle of life is written in his inward parts, and this period of existence should be a process of Self-discovery and Self-expression. In the unfoldment of man's own nature he learns the secrets of his own being. Study yourself at first hand, the deepest longings of your own inner nature, watch them unfold and you will understand.

Religion kills....

Ignorance of the True understanding of Religion Kills....
Only because it leads understanding and experience away from Union with God and Immortality, and towards the understanding and experience of mortality, selfishness and death.

your arrogant enough to claim True udnerstanding? That's funny

Is it just me or is this JOesus alwsys such an arrogant ass? Yeah well I guess even crazy lunatics always believe they're allways right! lol No offense Joesus!

I am not so sure of true udnerstanding (spell check are good!) but I am confident through experience to understand the difference between blind following and the pursuit and expansion of conscious awareness and experience that is built on Union with all things.



No its not just you, there are others that seem to find me in conflict and offensive to their beliefs..



None can be taken where there is understanding

hey Jokeus, you criticize me for making spelling mistakes but then spell "its" instead of "it's" right here!


So your nothing but a hypocrite? This is a rhetorical question so dont bother answering. Somehow I'm not surprised that your a big fat hypocrite. Preach one thing, do another. I know your kind. Your not fooling anyone. Well, maybe your self.

Booooo! Booooo!!! Shame on you Hypocrite!!! Shame on you!!! >:(

You take things way too serious!

BOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Both premises are incorrect. Not surprising since Christianity, like other religions, is based on lies.

Good job rallying the troops, Joesus!

I think Gandhi said it best, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

One of the great ironies of life! Perhaps proof that the greater Being does not lack a sense of humor.