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Laz
In another thread Joe said:
QUOTE
But will the poser of questions know the reason for the question or be able to recognise the answer?


Does anyone know why we are so keen to achieve enlightenment? What is it about it that we want over everything else in life?

It's so easy to get carried away in the detail and loose sight of the reason. I for example do not know why I am searching for some ultimate truth. I just feel the need to search, without knowing the reason.

I'm sure i'm not alone here...
Piratjenny
QUOTE
Does anyone know why we are so keen to achieve enlightenment? What is it about it that we want over everything else in life?




I don´t care for enlightenment. It is a strategy to postpone aliveness and happiness, a dualistic mental construct. If the ultimate truth you are looking for is not here and now, it´s nowhere.... What about finding instead of searching?
LoVE
PJ ;D
seanf
The vast majority of people are not at all interested in the search for ultimate truth - the people on a forum like this are in no way representative of society as a whole. Most people either choose a belief from the ones available, or are more concerned with getting on with their lives. I'm afraid philosophers are a minority group.

As to why some people search for truth (whatever that is), that's either a psychological question (so ask a psychologist) or it falls into the category of 'why the duck-billed platypus?'
Dan
the motivation for the search for enlightenment is the presence of need

there are two solutions to 'solving' need

1.  deny and reject the meaningfulness of need.  Relabel it something like 'desire', which sounds less important, and then say that its lack of importance implies its lack of meaningfulness.  Due to the rejection of the meaningfulness of need, one can proceed to lose track of meaning until the mind is void.  Although this offers a sort of spiritualistic 'instant gratification', it ultimately leads to death or chaos

2.  understand that need is the foundation of meaning, thus the meaningful search is to track the most important of needs without becoming lost in confusion or premature satisfaction.  This way offers no guarantees of heaven, no 'enlightenment' or 'finality'.  It only offers the possibility for continued tracking of need which is the ground of hope
joe
The nature of duality is that we care or don't care, accept or don't accept, we divide our world into parts and not only separate the parts from each other we separate ourself from all of its parts. This causes suffering in a world that is full of likes and dislikes, happiness and sadness.
Most people think this world of self-destructive and limiting beliefs, of internal programs that keep the individual life bound to the waking State of Consciousness-the state in which life is alternately happy and sad, loving and hating, healthy and sick, is normal, and that this is all there is, that this is the here and now. The Ego in mimicking enlightenment will convince you that there is nothing more to experience and that if you have to look for something else then you are delusional and not being present.
When one gets tired of suffering in this normal world the mind then has a chance to notice more.
The mind caught in its habits of awareness solely based on the 5 senses, looks constantly outward for its truths and understandings, it takes all outward sense oriented experiences and bases its idea of the world and itself on these experiences and interpretations.
This outward projection of life constantly changes, it has a beginning and an end, it dies and is reborn into the same habitual thought patterns bound to limits and fear.
Humans are the only creatures on the planet that can make the choice to evolve or devolve within their short lives. No other creature has that ability.
This separates us from the other lower life forms only in the ability to make choices.
All life is created from the same spark, the same stardust, the same energy by what some call God, some call universal mind, it doesn't really matter what you call it, it all comes from the same place.
Being that we are created from the same creative intelligence, we have within us the same elements of that which we were created from, and by.

Christ stated 2000 years ago I and my Father are one, I am God.

 Jesus was a man just like any other man or woman, born in a body of flesh and blood. He had emotions and he felt the same things anybody feels that has a body that is functional and is capable of feeling.
He also knew as a child that the life that people were living was not the best they could do.
 What he saw in the way people treated each other, the way women were sold and traded in the same way as their sheep and goats, lacked love and compassion, and was driven by fear and survival.
He saw that it was their way of perception that caused them to live their lives the way they did.
 He was driven to find something greater in himself and in all of mankind.
This same desire arises in anyone when they are aware that this is not the potential of human life, to suffer in duality and see suffering in the world around you and within ones self.
The question that was in his mind, to find the answer, drove him to seek the solution, as the mind was turned away from one perception, Christ rose above the limitations of the habitual feelings perpetuated by waking state realities to realize the truth within himself and within all life.
The abilities he gained that are described in historical legend and scriptures are the same abilities that are within everyone. This was his mission in life, to teach this truth and how to realize this.
It is not so much a need to find a solution to a problem as the mind habitually reasons that drives us towards the essence of who we are, but the magnetic drawing of our selves back to the Self and Union that creates the desire to Self realize.
Like the river that eventually leads to the Ocean the inner knowing that is suppressed by the ego and its habitual reasoning based on outer sensory illusions eventually finds its way back to its source.
 Like a Salmon that finds its way back to its birthplace the soul will return to its source.
Like a moth to a flame, once the mind drops its focus on illusion it opens itself to experience something greater.
 It is only the limited waking state perceptions that perpetuate the world around us as our source and not the infinite transcendant isness that is the source of all creations and dimensional realities.
This Self, this source, this light draws us back to our infinite potential, towards Union with the limitless being that we are.
Our minds create ideas and reasons, labels these reasons, judges them, categorizes them and the Ego manipulates the ideas back out through the senses to maintain the illusions of limitation and experiences as the real Self.

This is so far from the Truth.

What causes the desire to wake up? Only the reality of what we truly are as it starts to break the foundations of what the limited mind thinks reality is. It cannot be supported in the limitless, infinite reality of what we truly are.

If you can let the Ego die and fall into the Self then you will not waste any time reasoning with it, or reasoning with anything that is built on the foundations of lies and illusions. Enlightenment is the easiest thing in the world to achieve, but letting go of the illusions can be the hardest thing you've ever done if you are attached to your precious world and the things in it.

The bliss of Union washes away all lesser realities and experiences that are those of happiness relative to unhappiness and the 5 senses. This draws you inward like a magnet.
All you need do is get out of the way to let it unfold and wrap its Self around you. Find a way to let the mind effortlessly fall back into union with its Self to free you from your ideas.
To find you must seek.
Piratjenny
QUOTE
To find you must seek.



Sorry Baby. To find you must find. Finding is a creative process and a state of grace. It is being with what you already are. Seeking is born out of desparation.
LOVE
PJ
joe
QUOTE



Sorry Baby. To find you must find. Finding is a creative process and a state of grace. It is being with what you already are. Seeking is born out of desparation.
LOVE
PJ


No need to apologize to express a point of view.
To find one has to take action.
 If one has not achieved the state of grace in conscious awareness one need only open the eyes to do so.
This would involve putting down one reality for the other.
A choice, to see and experience something different.
It is fine to say everything is in a state of grace and make a claim to it but this is so far from actually being conscious of it.
The difference between I am and I am that.
The difference in being human, and being immortal in the awareness and experience, and being who you are.
Seeking is not always born of desperation.
To follow the calling of the Self is the natural rythm of life, what our natural destiny is, the return to our infinite awareness.
 I know many people that have followed the inner calling of the Self, because there was the undeniable voice or pull that was drawing them inward, and I also know many that were suffering, and from their realization and possibly desperation sought to experience something different.

 "To the intensely Vehement Soon" -Patanjali

This experience, these experiences, lay the groundwork for choice to take action. Each is equally effective in the choice to achieve enlightenment, and I would hardly recommend one stop looking inside because it was ineffective or wrong to seek to make new choices.
 People have their own basic understandings of what words mean. Regardless of what one says it is easily known what the intent and desire is when you talk to them.
Follow, seek, find they are all useful adjectives in Self enquiry to the aspirant who wishes to know him/herself.
There are no wrong ways to approach the Self, but there are quick and easy ways, and there is also the long way around the barn.

It's just a choice, the more you choose for the infinite self the faster you grow, and the more quickly the experiences of life change to move towards the Bliss of enlightenment.

 The more you choose to analyze the path or the choices the longer you spend circling the target, or worse, just the idea that contains nothing but dreams.

In higher states of awareness choice becomes even more important or the Ego takes a hold and one becomes complacent in an experience of experiences.
synchronox
Two questions:

This is what you wanted, Shawn?
This is the reason you wanted me to go easy on Joe?


Second question for Laz,
Laz,
Did you know Joe before you started posting here?
You seem to be shilling for him.

Oh hell, while I'm at it,
Joe,  You said someone invited you here.  Who was that?  Do you know anyone here prior to your posting here?  How about the guy that posted once in support of you?  Another alias type of game?  You are very skilled at this play, aren't you?
joe
You seem upset John.

I think that was more like 5 or 6 questions.

Shawn invited me here.

Laz
Joe, that's not very a very helpfull comment.

Let's try not have another thread that's just an argument between two members.

As a personal request, do you think that in the future you could make your responses a little more concise. I realise you have a lot of knowledge and i am keen to learn, but huge posts are offending people.

Thanks

Laz
Back on the subject of the thread,

Joe appears to be suggesting that the need for enlightenment is not a choice we can make, it is a process that we go through. Can this be so?

What about the vast majority of people out there, who are not philosophers? There's a good chance they will never begin this process.

Now this may be a question of psychology, but that doesn't mean we should shun it.  Many of us here must have gone through most of our lifes without considdering enlightenment. What was it that flipped our switch?

If you don't mind sharing at a personal level, i'd like to know. I'm thinking hard about what started it for me and i'll post it when i have an answer.

Thanks


Laz
You know, I don't think there was just one reason...

I feel that there is an accumulative effect that repeatedly kicked me into looking for more; the death of a loved grandad, experience with drugs, migraine headaches, the fear of dieing, one thing after another bullied me into looking for more.

Perhaps Joe was right, perhaps this isn't a choice!


Piratjenny
Ahh, so Joe got invited here... Does this invitation come along with the privilege
a) to attack John continously in the most unappropriate fashion with the obvious intent to wear him out, and
cool.gif to shut down every discussion with a lenghty and repetitive mix of dogma and latent agression, disguised as deep spiritual insights?
Can you please answer, Shawn?

And Laz: There is this beautiful thing, right between your ears. It´s called brain. You can use it, all by yourself. No need to seek constant preachings and teachings from others.
LOVE
Piratjenny
Laz
QUOTE
And Laz: There is this beautiful thing, right between your ears. It´s called brain. You can use it, all by yourself. No need to seek constant preachings and teachings from others.


Piratjenny, that is exactly what this board is about isn't it?

I do not claim to be anything other than a student of Philosophy.
Piratjenny
QUOTE
Piratjenny, that is exactly what this board is about isn't it?



You think this board is about sitting at the feet of wannabe gurus/car mechanics and listen in awe to their endless mental masturbation? Or is this board about using your own brain, expressing yourself, being creative and experimental? Is this board about being a nice and friendly audience to a narcistic home-made "master", who claims to know the truth, or is it about being yourself? Is this board about accepting other people´s dogma? Is it about being intelligent? Can you elaborate?

You say that you are nothing but a student of philosophy. Did it ever occur to you that your "beginner´s mind" is more precious and fresh and innocent than any teachings you seek from others?
LOVE
PJ
seanf
I'm not seeking enlightenment. I just want to live and grow as much as possible. My interest in philosophy is kind of inherited - my dad is a taoist, marxist, existentialist - and was set off by a book called 'Sophie's World' by Jostein Gaarder that I read when I was 12 or 13.

PJ - Know exactly what you mean. Joe's views aren't offensive in themselves, it's the arrogance with which he expresses them. This is a place for discussion, not for being taught or having things 'explained' to us. I agree that I would like to hear from Shawn on this.
joe
Oh PJ, Hey we have the same initials!!!!
Such a harsh perspective. Maybe this board is to bring out what your brain continually sees and decides to make real.
The Good and the Bad and the choice to maintain duality and to continually try to ignore one side of it... although you and John have a hard time ignoring what you don't like. (that'd be me)

Life is Karma Laz.
It is the field of action started by desire.
You as the creator choose to create anything you wish to create. Duality is only the awareness losing itself in the field of action.
Like going to the movies and forgetting you are sitting in the audience you lose yourself in the movie.
Enlightenment is simply reawakening to yourself.
You don't have to give up anything to become enlightened just the attachments that keep you drawn out on the senses and keep you in the movie and separate from your Self.
Desire creates Karma. You can create as many realities and lives as you want and you do.
Take away the notion of Time and separation, the mind is free to wander the dimensional film strip to whichever frame it wishes to visit, either one at a time or all at once, or sit in the perfect stillness and bliss of the Self and Self awareness, it doesn't matter.
The Ego limits itself to one life, one experience at a time, and the belief that it has a finite starting point and ending point.
Its so amazing how some people fight so hard to keep their measily experiences and control to maintain this limited idea of life from being invaded or taken away when they have the whole universe at their disposal.
God/Self constantly reaches out patiently waiting for human to take the hand of immortality and stand up, wake up from the dream of suffering the duality of alternating happiness and sadness, life and death, sickness and health.
The Ego says no thank you I want my limitations, I don't need dogma, I like my control to think what I want and ignore what I am.
Because it thinks it knows what it is and it thinks so small.
But that is free will. It's just a choice.

Rtam Bhara Prajna (pronounced ritam bara pragnya)
It is the ripple effect of desire as it is dropped into the silent depths of the infinite.
When the mind is loaded up with the limited programs, root stresses of limiting belief systems each desire runs through these programs as a bubble would rise from the bottom of a pond and rise through different layers of water to reach the surface to finally manifest.
Take a simple desire to quench the thirst.
The desire rises effortlessly from the depths of where all thoughts initiate and through the stress of the individuals life, and the beliefs of what life is (lifes a bitch and then you die) by the time it manifests at the surface it turns into a desire for a beer or a shot to dull the mind from the experiences of reality.
Although a crude representation, it is an example of how we let self defeating and opposing thoughts color, invade, and even kill our desires.
Like getting a job or wanting a relationship. All of the self defeating thoughts like I don't deserve her or him, If I tell anyone about my desire it will kill it, or the existence in truths surrounding Murphy's Law, that if anything can go wrong it can or will.
These thoughts, ideas and beliefs are buried deep within the subconscious mind. They distort our desires and twist them to manifest the world we see rather than the ideal worlds we can dream of.

Why are we here?
You who reads this chose to create it exactly the way it is.
You may say to yourself. I didn't ask for Preacher Joe to come here and irritate the fuck out of me by writing long posts.
If you didn't who did? Are you a victim to your world? Are humans forever victim to the creative force that continually shoves things they don't like in their face?
If you say yes and are content with the way life is then C'est la Vie! you have nothing to complain about because this is as good as it gets.

But if you know there is more and you wish to experience more than the life that limits you to what comes rather than exactly what you are capable of desiring and creating, then you must wake up from the dream. There is no other way. It won't just happen to you, you will have to initiate the action by making the choice to see and know more.
That desire will filter itself through the Ego and get twisted and distorted through the grandiose ideas of what God/Self/immortality is and it can take lifetimes to get there if you let the ego with its attachments to control and limitation keep its control, or you can align with it as your one pointed goal and focus.
There are no rules, and no right way or wrong way it is all based on choice. And each choice has useful boundaries, this is called Tapas, the choice to stay ruthlessly vigilant to align with purpose.

I want enlightenment but I also want a beer and I want to get laid.

Whatever you put in front of your primary desires that will slow its manifestation. That is not one pointed focus or the use of useful boundaries or Tapas.

 You create the seeds of karma with each desire and with the dreams and hopes of the Ego backed human mind that is laced with greed and fear we create mountains of seeds created by those desires and they are all waiting for the appropriate time to sprout and manifest. We pile one desire on top of another and they take lifetimes to manifest.
You can burn all  the seeds, still the mind and create one thought at a time to manifest instantly what you want.
That pile of mush that sits between your ears cycles 100,000 thoughts of ideas about what life is and what you want and so you shoot your own desires as they come up with conflicting thoughts and conflicting beliefs.

This you call intellegence.
This you call reality.
And this is free will.

True skill in action would be free from limitations to know the scope of who you are and the scope of your desire to manifest universes at will and never be subject to doubt, pain and suffering.
No one can stop the cycle of Samsara but you, and it starts with a choice and one pointed focus to manifest what you really want.

You might ask that simple question. What do you want?

If you are Miss Universe you might say the end to global warming and world peace, or to feed the hungry.

But look at your thoughts. They believe the world is real and has to be fixed. Rise above the beliefs that keep the illusion of a broken world and suffering in place to start a new vision.

It starts with you. You can chase down the infinite number of problems and try and fix them or fix yourself and create a new world free from the limitations of beliefs in suffering.
Forget about that pile of shit between your ears. It's 90% water and cellular material. It can't even begin to contain the vastness of who you are. It's only a receiver for your Self and as long as its stuck on the same PBS/codependant channel you'll never know anything more than what you have learned in public school or college, or the life that manifests as a result of those useless institutions.

 What a waste of life to believe that this planet with all its beliefs is all there is to know about the universe.  
What a waste of life to continue to defend this speck of dust and your miserable lives to continue to do the same things over and over again and keep yourselves stuck in the 10% level of you brains capabilites.
What a waste to leave the DNA locked up that will activate the body and senses to higher levels at higher levels of consciousness.
Enlightenment is the only game in town.
It has been the only game from the inception of duality.
You created it and you make the choice in how you play the game.
You can rise up to sit with the Gods or stay in your miserable world to end up at the old folks home and have your ass wiped by someone who hates doing it and hates you for making the mess that keeps them coming there day after day to wipe your ass.

Life is a choice, stop complaing about it and do something different.

Jai Isham Ishvaram
seanf
QUOTE
The Good and the Bad and the choice to maintain duality and to continually try to ignore one side of it... although you and John have a hard time ignoring what you don't like. (that'd be me)


QUOTE

Rise above the beliefs. . .
What a waste of life to continue to defend this speck of dust and your miserable lives . . .


Arrogance.
Self-worship.
The conviction that your way is the best way, that you know more, that other's choices are a 'waste of life,' that what you consider truth is 'above the beliefs of others.' And you wonder why you have recieved a negative reaction from Synchronox, PJ, and myself. After that post, I no longer have any remaining good opinion of you.
synchronox
Shawn,
Joe claims that you invited him.  Is this true?

If it is, it appears that you stepping in to defend him against Dan, PJ, Timothy and myself at the time has more to be seen than was apparent when the event occured.  I really got angry when you reached over my moderator status to intervene.  We had some private correspondece about this.  What is the true situation, as I do not wish to speculate?  If this was so, it put me in an impossible situation.
synchronox
Laz,

As a moderator I think it only fair to be open.

Did you know Joe before you began posting here?
You ignored my previous question.

 Let us clear this up.  I wish it not to be so and I wish you well if this is not so.  I am not piqued at you and I do enjoy my status of non-mederator.
joe
QUOTE
Arrogance.


A perception, irritation and a limitation of intellectual capacity.

QUOTE
Self-worship.


Self recognition which is not mutually exclusive by the way.

QUOTE
The conviction that your way is the best way,


The conviction that my way is the best way for me and that it works for others and has since the beginning of time.

QUOTE
that you know more,


I know what I know and am always open to being proven wrong.

QUOTE
that other's choices are a 'waste of life,' that what you consider truth is 'above the beliefs of others.'


Truth is universal, to ignore the infinite Self is like putting duct tape over your eyes and trying to live life without using your eyes.

QUOTE
And you wonder why you have recieved a negative reaction from Synchronox, PJ, and myself.


I don't wonder or worry, the Ego hates to be threatened. God knows only Love.

QUOTE
After that post, I no longer have any remaining good opinion of you.


Opinions are like..... Oh never mind eveyone knows the answer to that statement.

Shawn
hello everyone,

I see my response was needed here days ago to clarify some things, but hopefully this belated post will help bring some light to this heated discussion.


QUOTE
Shawn,
Joe claims that you invited him.  Is this true?


No, at least not in the sense that the term is being used here.  Joe came here, to this messageboard, originally, of his own accord, and was not formally (or even informally) invited by me.   That being said, I do appreciate and welcome his posts and his perspective, as I do from others as well, even though I understand that several people do not concur with him and are offended by him.  In that sense, he is invited to post here (as are others who post here), even though I did not formally invite him to post here prior to his first coming here.  


QUOTE
I really got angry when you reached over my moderator status to intervene.


John, you know that it wasn't my intention to upset, and even though I can appreciate why you were upset, I still do not regard my post as reaching over your moderator status, any more so than had someone else posted the same thing.  


QUOTE
What is the true situation, as I do not wish to speculate?  



The true situation is that Joe, like you, and mostly everyone else, came here of their own accord, uninvited by me, but nonetheless, encouraged by me to post their views and perspectives on things so as to help other people understand different points of view, thereby enlarging our repertoire of perspectives through which we can look out onto the world.



QUOTE

Can you please answer, Shawn?


Joe does not enjoy any privileges in this forum that aren't available to other members as well.   Everyone has a right to post what they want, within reason.   Personally, I don't think Joe has been guilty of doing anything here that hasn't been done in a similar manner by others, perhaps to different degrees.    If there is some post you find extremely offensive, then if you want, let me know about it.  I've yet to see any myself.   Even when Joe and I exchanged words sometime ago in our little 'debate' over enlightenment, I did not take offense to it, but rather enjoyed the exchange, and so I'm not sure what to say to people who do take offense other than that they recognize that it's just a state of mind and that you're responsible for how you react to 'external' events (because you should be able to control how you react to external events).   I know many people won't agree with me on this, but that's ok.

 
QUOTE
This is a place for discussion, not for being taught or having things 'explained' to us. I agree that I would like to hear from Shawn on this.


I understand your open-mindedness, Sean, and partake of it myself.  However, a good test of such open-mindedness is that it should permit one to be tolerant of others who may come across as not so open-minded themselves.   Be grateful of your open-mindedness, and learn what you can from others, even if they feel they've nothing more to learn (and I'm not trying to imply that Joe is such a person), because you will learn more, and everyone you meet will potentially help you towards this.


Shawn


Piratjenny
Joe yesterday:
QUOTE
You can rise up to sit with the Gods or stay in your miserable world to end up at the old folks home and have your ass wiped by someone who hates doing it and hates you for making the mess that keeps them coming there day after day to wipe your ass.



Shawn, it is such statements I find pathological and fear-based, bare of any compassion, maturity and understanding. It is a true miracle to me how anybody can mistake such „insights“ with the search for personal growth and truth. And I yet have to come across ONE original thought of Joe´s - something that has not been preached by others at nauseaum in the neo-darvinist section of the spiritual supermarket, something that´s fresh and original.
That´s one thing. The second and more damaging thing is that Joe is not open for discussion and sharing - his beliefs are the absolute truth and whoever dares to challenge them has a serious problem and will receive free psychoanalysis a la Joe. The end result might be that intelligent voices are silenced or leaving for greener pastures but Joe will remain in shining glory, his few disciples sitting at his lotus feet....
LOVE
PJ
joe
I came here as a result of the open invitation Shawn left on another website to come to this one. Whether recognized as formal or informal it was an open invitation that was made by shawn to those that were posting on that particular website, due to its familiar content.

PJ,
QUOTE
Shawn, it is such statements I find pathological and fear-based, bare of any compassion, maturity and understanding. It is a true miracle to me how anybody can mistake such „insights“ with the search for personal growth and truth. And I yet have to come across ONE original thought of Joe´s - something that has not been repeated at nauseaum by others in the neo-darvinistic section of the spiritual supermarket, something that´s fresh and original.


This is in itself standard response to the idea of I can't handle this. See where this is wrong.

What do you know of enlightenment when you see so much wrong, to sit in your judgment of me or anyone, To separate God from what you don't like?

QUOTE
The second and more damaging thing is that Joe is not open for discussion and sharing - his beliefs are the absolute truth and whoever dares to challenge them has a serious problem and will receive free psychoanalysis a la Joe. The end result might be that intelligent voices are silenced or leaving for greener pastures but Joe will remain in shining glory, his few disciples sitting at his lotus feet....


I find it fascinating, your reasoning to make judgments.
I am always open to discussion. What I experience is when I don't agree with yours and make mine clear you don't like it.
What makes you so different than me? You call me names, tell me I'm not rational and that I am wrong about what I am saying.
You and John both are hypocrites, and you are consistent in your viewpoint and repetative in in your dislike and your judgment of what this board should look like and how I should act.

You give me great power to make the claim that I can silence intelligent voices. Do you feel overpowered by me or are you not one of the intelligent voices.
Greener pastures? You the one that made claim to the divine experience, now find that the experience of divinity, that is here, isn't...
QUOTE
I don´t care for enlightenment. It is a strategy to postpone aliveness and happiness, a dualistic mental construct. If the ultimate truth you are looking for is not here and now, it´s nowhere.... What about finding instead of searching?

These are your words, this is your intelligent conversation.
You don't care for enlightenment, yet you make claim to know what is real and not real about it and then judge me for my words.
You make claim that the ultimate truth is here and now and you complain about what is here and now and insist that intelligent voices can be overshadowed and will search for another here and now to, find.
Find what? More judgment more of what is not here and now? What is it that you are looking to find in the here and now. What is it supposed to look like?
Tell me something that is intelligent rather than telling me how fucked up I am and what you don't like.

I will discuss life and its perceptions but I will never tell anyone they are not God and they are not perfect in every way.

You and John need to step outside of the box and not take life so seriously.

You can run to shawn everytime you don't get your way. You can leave this place, this opportunity as shawn said to broaden your perspectives, or you can do what everyone else does that faces what they don't like.
Find a place to make yourself right and everything you don't like wrong and sit back in your limitations of ego, behind your castle walls to try and protect yourself from the boogeyman that resides in your psyche.

If you can't handle someone teeling you to your face what they think, feel and experience then you are not ready for human life, and certainly not ready for enlightenment.
No one will agree with you all the time and you won't agree with others all the time. Get over yourself.
Shawn
QUOTE
Joe came here, to this messageboard, originally, of his own accord, and was not formally (or even informally) invited by me.  


QUOTE
I came here as a result of the open invitation Shawn left on another website to come to this one. Whether recognized as formal or informal it was an open invitation that was made by shawn to those that were posting on that particular website, due to its familiar content.


you're right, Joe.   I forgot that I'd made some open invitations on other messageboards in order to bring people with similar interests together here.    Was the other messageboard you're referring to called SannyaNews, or something like that?

synchronox
Thanks PJ, Dan, seanf, Timothy, ID and others that I have had enjoyable conversation .
I shall check my message board for the next week or so if you have another site that is a more reasonable place to be.

Shawn, Joe, I vote with my departure.
The chilling lack of character and the amazing surfacing of narcissistic behavior dictates that I not stay in proximity to your intimate embrace.

The stance of appeasement to tyranny has always been a lousy position to take down through history.
Shawn
QUOTE
The end result might be that intelligent voices are silenced or leaving for greener pastures


I understand and share your concern, PJ, and will do what I can to ensure that this does not happen.

QUOTE

Shawn, Joe, I vote with my departure.
The chilling lack of character and the amazing surfacing of narcissistic behavior dictates that I not stay in proximity to your intimate embrace.
 


Am I guilty of being too open-minded?   For allowing Joe to contribute his thoughts and perspective, as I would allow anyone else to do, am I to be branded a characterless narcissist?    Is this the gratitude you show to those who encourage you to express your views to others?  Thanks, John.

Piratjenny
Shawn:
QUOTE
Am I guilty of being too open-minded?   For allowing Joe to contribute his thoughts and perspective, as I would allow anyone else to do, am I to be branded a characterless narcissist? Is this the gratitude you show to those who encourage you to express your views to others. Thanks John



You are not guilty of anything, Shawn. But I feel that there was a certain blindness. A view is not only "interesting" or "spiritual" as an intellectual input, it also has a human and emotional context. It is communication. Are there any compassion, any love in these lofty theories? Is there any humor? Is there curiousity? Does the author ask qestions? Does s/he show any interest in the life, in the experience of others?


John
QUOTE
Thanks PJ, Dan, seanf, Timothy, ID and others that I have had enjoyable conversation .
I shall check my message board for the next week or so if you have another site that is a more reasonable place to be.
 



Hold the door. I am out of here too.
I will also check my message board for the next few days.
LOVe
PJ
Shawn
QUOTE
Are there any compassion, any love in these lofty theories? Is there any humor? Is there curiousity? Does the author ask qestions? Does s/he show any interest in the life, in the experience of others?


All of this and more.   By appreciating other people's perspectives and their validity, we thereby show interest.  More than anything, what I've tried to encourage, is the appreciation of other people's perspectives, and to show that there are many perspectives, an infinity of them in fact, and to open people's eyes to the multitude of perspectives.  Joe's perspective is one among many.  I never saw any need to censor his view, nor anyone elses.   And so, I would not say my conduct was indicative of any blindness, but was my adhering to the principle of respecting other people's perspectives and views, and of giving them a voice and the means to express themselves.

In any event, I'm sorry to see both of you go, but it's your decision, and I respect that.   I hope you find what you're looking for elsewhere.

namaste,
Shawn

synchronox
The dismissal of everyone else's point of view for the pursuit of some ideal of perfection is the hallmark of the  archetype of the wannabe guru.  When this singular drive is in evidence, there is a lack of character displayed and the emergence of, what appears to me, narcissistic behavior.
I believe this to be the attractive principle between Joe and you, not that you wished to tolerate his viewpoint at the expense of everyone else's.
Such as the aliabi-ing of PJ's very nicely expressed view.
Shawn your emotional depth is best illustrated by your 'nice' vaneer.   I wish you and your chosen partner well.  
I shall choose to examine my human condition and work with the cards I have been dealt, rather than attempt to find the all elusive perfection that excludes that humanness.

John

santos
If someone told you the real, true secret to a blissful, contented and stress-free life (life in the state of Self realization) -- could you hear it?
rhymer
Hi all,

I have seen no definition of enlightenment herein, so presume we are all talking about something different!

To me, enlightenment is the realisation for me of  a piece of information of any size which makes my model of the probable TRUTH of the world in which I, and presumably we all, live, seem more realistic to me.

Is there a God or more?
If there is, what purpose is served?
How was the world created?
What is the purpose of living things, if one exists at all?
etc etc....

Seeking answers to these questions, and filtering the rubbish from that which seems most appropriate so far does require considerable knowledge, understanding, and I suppose faith where duplication of experiments is unavailable.
This search does not stop me from enjoying life as I know it!
In a way, accepting a belief without doing a search for the truth oneself is a cop-out.
It is, however, a very valuable cop-out if indeed there are no answers to the example questions I have listed!
In that case, those with Faith, just get on with their lives and don't waste time searching for something which does not exist.
I am satisfied that the whole TRUTH has not yet been ascertained and am therefore totally satisfied with my continued search for the TRUTH.
Everybody falls into one of those categories, viz., searcher or satisfied.
Everybody should, therefore, be happy.

Problems do occur when one realises discontent with ones position, or when somebody tries to impose their thoughts on others.
This is all just my opinion, so should upset no-one.
It may, however, cause some reaction!

Best regards, Bill.
PS I suspect that if we do not yet know the TRUTH, some people will not be ready for it when it comes. The same may be said, however, if the TRUTH is already available to us!
I don't fancy Heaven or Hell personally. I find that one only appreciates anything when its opposite is also imposed.
synchronox
Santos, (Joe),

Why yes I could hear it.
I think I have been listening to it's repititious voice.
The next question is, could I live it?

Not if the penalty was that I had to spam sites, use aliases, lie, say one point over and over again in a monotonous monotone, disregard the rights of others, narrow down my viewpoint to a tiny window, believe I was God, be aggressive, take issue with anyone that disagrees with me, throw my weight around, deny my emotions, think that humans are a concept and believe that I never judge anyone when I do so constantly.

Do you mean that as well, is that part of the package you offer?  Or is that the silent baggage that comes along with the deal?
joe
 Shawn,
It was a different website than the one you mentioned.

You're making an assumption here John.
I don't know santos but the voice is familiar. Could be the same voice that is trying to tell you something and you are definately not willing to hear.

Your insistance in taking this position of interpretation doesn't leave you much room to experience anything else.
You seem to feel that I can throw my weight around better than others and that I can make anyone feel subject to loss of importance and to any rights they may have to broadcast their own voice.
I also see others don't necessarily take your point of view. What do you think that means? Maybe you are right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe you are wrong and everyone else is right.
It sucks to be subject to such a lack of diversity that allows no room to move, where one is squeezed through the eye of the needle of right and wrong based on personal feelings.
Could be there are as many points of view as there are possibilities.

You seem to think my lack of emotional involvement and attachment makes me less human than you.
Perhaps this is correct, for My definitions are certainly from an entirely different perspective.
This does not mean I disagree with yours in the way you see it.
I have once seen and experienced the world the way you have, but I no longer see the need to believe in the need to be attached to suffering or believe there is a need to believe in others pain when they are more than capable of rising above the reasons they choose to suffer.
Suffering is relative to attachments and they can be easily broken. This does not make one less, in fact it makes them more than just a victim to the mortality of flesh and the beliefs and ideas that perpetuate these limited realities.

I never tried or could take away your free will to think what you wanted to think. Your paranoia that I might be able to or was even trying to is childish and absurd.

Enjoy your life elswhere.
As PJ once said if you can't find it here then it is nowhwere to be found.
But the Ego will always try to convince you that the fishing is better at the other end of the dock.

There is a very big co-dependant world out there waiting to support you and your dance around the feelings of fear and victimization.
They will allow you to apologize for having your feelings and apologize for having theirs.
A big world of apologetic co-dependant, soul-less individuals living their lives to perpetuate the perfect dream, compromising themselves for the idea that someone might object.
Someday you may awaken from your dreams John to see a much more expanded reality.
Perhaps your guides will help you awaken to your bigger creation rather than help you to believe in how fucked up the world is.
synchronox
Talk into the mirror Joe.
Your behavior is diametrically different than your patter.
This blares COMPLEX not enlightenment.
What you are doing belies what you are saying.
I have no pity for you or anyone stupid enough to listen to your brand of dementia.
Watch my exit, in fact, get out of my way.
I'll not give you any more attention, for above all, that is what you crave.
joe
I shall not grieve, but I will miss you John.

Mahadeva
^  *  \___/  * &n
good riddens!!!
Dan
hey Joey

't looks like it's just gonna be U and Me
mad vs. bad

:-*
(btw, don't take that smooch in a gay way  tongue.gif )
joe

Which one is which? Mad, bad... I'm so confused.

As for the smootch you're not afraid to get close are you?
synchronox
Hi Dan,
Watch for entrapping messages on personal messages.
Both PJ and I recieved some alluring and suspicious ones from a '15 year old' girl.
This is a pro agitator, be suspicious.  He uses aliases and sock puppets that speak for him at appropriate times.  Laz never answered my public inquiry (2x) about knowing Joe.  He answered me privately and was quite hostile.  Good luck.

Dear Good Riddins,
Is this the representative Satanic message that completes the cycle?  You know, the mother's representative cry that caused the reactive formation complex for the search for perfection?  The dark side?
Men frequently marry the image of their mother.
Are you a wounded Princess that requires a White Knight to save her?  No offense, just curious.
joe
Hey Bill, There is no absolute definition for enlightenment but I have a great article which I will post that was written by a great teacher of enlightenment.

The Ascendant

by MSI
 
When we perceive the external world, we are looking at our definitions of forms and objects, but not the underlying Unified Field in which they appear. Similarly, our inner world, feelings and thoughts clutter our awareness, but the awareness of awareness itself is never known.
The Ascendant is the space in which things exist; it is the essence out of which everything is made: thoughts, feelings, computers, my aunt Daisy.
This is not a void as some have claimed, this is not an emptiness or negative reality. Rather, the Ascendant is a positive state of fullness, of Infinite potential energy out of which everything comes. Since the Ascendant underlies and permeates everything in creation, it is called Omnipresent.
Everything comes from it and exists only because of it.    
Nothing can or does exist in isolation.
 Everything is composed of the Ascendant, continually flowing in and out of manifestation.
The Ascendant cannot be measured or defined. We can assign a name to it, like Infinite or Unbounded or Absolute, but these still imply it is something. Any name for the Ascendant or belief about the Ascendant is not the experience of the Ascendant. It is only when we abandon our insistence on attempting to limit the Unlimited by assigning waking state concepts to it that the Infinite light of the Primal World dawns within.
Freed from mental fabrications about the nature of Reality, awareness is experienced as Absolute and identical with everything that is.
The Ascendant is without prior cause, it is its own cause; it is ever-the-same, unchanging. Like water, it is not altered regardless how much dirt is added to it: only the clarity of it is shrouded while its essential nature remains the same.
The Ascendant is perfect stability, it is the Ground of all grounds. There is no experience of duality in the Ascendant, there is no difference between the self and the Self. There is no separation.
Like a peak experience while painting, writing or composing music, there is no subject-object duality. There is no thought in the Ascendant, there is no feeling, there is nothing other than Silence: Eternal, self-sufficient.

The Ascendant is the Ultimate Reality from which everything has come and in which everything continues to exist forever.
 To experience this as our True Nature is enlightenment; to remain ignorant of this means remaining caught by the boundaries of illusion, life after life, caught on the wheel of samsara, of cyclic change.

   Through Ascending, the Ascendant is experienced as our own essential nature, as awareness of awareness itself, as pure Unlimited consciousness. This is the experience of Infinite Freedom. This is liberation from the boundaries of the ego.
 Since the Ascendant is the Source of everything, recognizing that "I am That" means that I recognize that I am All-pervasive. This is the state of Is-ness, free from any and every duality, freed from the sense of My-ness or even Am-ness. The Ascendant simply is. And That I am.
Even though the experience of the Ascendant is impossible to define in words, it is a real experience. In fact, the experience of the Ascendant is more real than any waking state experience. The experience of the Unbounded is infinitely abstract and yet infinitely concrete. Having once tasted this clearly, life cannot remain the same. There is no previous behavior pattern, habit, judgment or belief that can withstand the force of Unbounded Awareness, for the Ascendant is the root of everything.
When the mind is experiencing the silence of the Ascendant, there is no motion of thought. Like a perfectly still pond untouched by the wind, there are no waves, no ripples, no motion of any kind when the mind is opened to the experience of the Ascendant.
 This state is measurable by the electroencephalograph: coherence of brain waves is the objective measurement of the subjective experience of Ascending.
The mind consumes vastly less energy when it floats in the Ascendant; because of this, the body settles down to its deepest possible state of rest. In the perfect state of Infinite silence, there is no necessity for breath: the individual retains life by recognizing that he or she is part of Universal Life, in no way different or separate from Eternal existence. In other words, life continues because life is the essence of the Ascendant. In this state, no decay is possible, no illness, no death, no suffering, no pain
.
The Ascendant is the source of everything. Nothing lies outside it; nothing is built of anything other than it; nothing can exist for the smallest fraction of a moment outside of it. It is the conscious part of consciousness; it is the part of existence that exists. It is all that ever was, all that will ever be; you with your human nervous system have by your birth been given the ultimate gift, a machine that cannot only experience the Ascendant but direct it in any way you choose.
You are actually already directing the Ascendant all the time. But if your mind is not continually focussed on one desire at a time, your mutually contradictory thoughts and desires cancel each other out. Not entirely, of course, or else you would be a catatonic schizophrenic, you would do nothing but sit and stare off into space.
Since you are reading this, it is safe to assume you are not so self-contradictory that you are sailing in entirely useless circles in the boat of your mind.
The mind in contact with the Ascendant is like a perfectly still pool. Thoughts and desires are like stones dropped into the pool. If one stone falls, perfectly concentric ripples spread beautifully over the water and reach the far shore.
If two stones are dropped, there will be crests and valleys that cross over each other, emphasizing some, cancelling others. If a whole handful of stones hit the water at once, chaos is the result, there is no order left. The reflection in the pond is broken into a myriad of imperfect shards. The full moon can be sailing serenely above, but the pond will show only frenetic motion.
On any sandy beach, the kind and quality of the waves very much determine the shape of the sand. The kind and quality of our thought waves very much determine the overall shape of our minds. The ripples caused by our thoughts and desires produce both immediate (surface) and long-term (underlying) effects. When the pattern of thinking and desiring is chaotic, the result will necessarily be abnormal experiences, mental, emotional or physical, and abnormal behavior. The extent of the chaotic thinking directly determines the extent of the disorder in life. When the pattern of thinking and desiring is orderly, the result is health, happiness, joy, progress, creativity, fulfillment.
This may be easy to grasp intellectually regarding the individual life: if my thinking is disordered, my actions and life will be disordered. But since the Ascendant is the Source of everything, it is also true that my chaotic thinking will react with all parts of the Universe at all times and all places.
Like salmon returning to their hatching grounds to spawn, there are no accidents of fate, there are only our own thoughts returning to their source in our individual minds.
There is quite literally no one to blame, no one to condemn, no one to judge in any way whatsoever. My desires have created my Universe, just for me; your desires have created your Universe, just for you; the fact that so many of our Universes seem so similar and seem to share many common features is a happy or a useful coincidence that defines our common humanity. (Those whose individual Universes are much out of synchrony with the majority of humanity tend to end up in mental hospitals. Or prisons.)
This implies that the best cure for all disease, mental or physical, is the same, reconnecting the individual mind consciously to the Ascendant.
The human mind is so infinitely flexible that it can stretch in its experience from the most concrete to the most abstract, from the physical reality experienced by our senses to the abstract, internal reality of Consciousness itself.
The unifying thread of life is Love. From the most abstract to the most concrete, at every level of existence, at every level of experiencing, runs this slender thread. It seems delicate, a fragile thing, easily lost or broken, but is not so. It is more obdurate than granite; it can never be broken, never diminished, never lost; and it is forever growing, primarily by being given away.
We cannot fall out of it, although sometimes we mistakenly believe that we do. Rather, what happens when we feel that we have fallen out of love is that our mutually contradictory projected desires have made it impossible for our relationship to provide further growth. This is the kindest and most accurate description.
For underlying all our desires, the melange of contradictory impulses we drop into the still waters of the Ascendant, there forever remains our original intention, crystalline, flawless, pure, directing our being through situation after situation, life after life, world after world. And what is that original intention? It is to return to our Source. We are not and never will be at home here; we will always feel that we are the dispossessed wanderers of time.
That, truly, we are.
Like Pellinore of the Arthurian legends, we have lost our kingdoms and queendoms and wander aimlessly about, slowly rusting since our home has become invisible to us.
Yet is our exile self-imposed. We chose to be here; we can choose to return whence we came whenever we so desire. Nothing can stand between us and our re-union with our Source, for we never truly left the Ascendant. We only thought we did; we have travelled exceedingly far in our imaginations, but it is fantasy merely. The Ascendant will wait patiently for us to remember, throughout all Eternity if need be. For we are the Ascendant.
 No matter how long we forget this simple fact, no matter how long we adamantly deny that this is true or continue to build up false dreams and strange beliefs, the Ascendant waits patiently for us.
There is no thought we can think, no action we can perform, that will ever change this simple fact. The Ascendant is the root of all that we are, it is the fullest expression of all we shall ever be; it is the Source not only of us but of everything everywhere at all times.    

Life, therefore, is extremely easy to understand.

If this seems difficult to grasp, it can only be because there is some part of it that has not been properly understood. It can only be because there are still some dark areas of our personalities that have not yet been addressed. How can we change this?

In any way that works!

Ascension is a systematic procedure for re-educating the mind to free itself from judgment and condemnation. This is a completely automatic process; once begun it continues much by itself. The mind is similar to a phonograph record, there are grooves in our brains, neuronal circuits, formed by repeated experiences and thoughts.
 It is possible to retrain the mind so that the deepest grooves are those that lead to expansion of consciousness, to liberation. The mind just needs to learn how to take the correct angle, then the entire process is perfectly natural. The older grooves are overshadowed and eventually erased.

The natural state of the human mind is enlightenment!

Dan
thanks Synch

I have noticed some interesting events lately, but all is well here in OK.  ahh,..the joys of the internet!

8)
rhymer
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your posting on enlightenment.

You say there is no absolute definition for enlightenment.
I have found some words that expand its purpose.

Explanation
Clarification
illumination

I have read the article by MSI on the 'ascendent' and find it to be mumbo-jumbo ie., a lot of sentences with just a few statements I can agree with.
It is almost mythological and gives me the impression of someone trying to satisfy questioning people who have no means of differentiating between sensible statements of Truth and insensible garbage! I can well imagine people paying good money for this type of vaguery, which nonetheless will comfort many people and stop their search for the Truth stone dead!
I do apologise for speaking so strongly, but do advise you to seek the opinion of others on the sensibility of the statements made in this document.
Mind you, if they answer your questions about enlightenment satisfactorily, please presume my ignorance and arrogance for criticising them.
I do appreciate your help, even if I do not agree with its contents.
Best regards, Bill.
joe
Not a problem Bill.
I take no offense to your opinion.

He used to say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I find his method and introduction well within the heritage of all true teachings, both western and eastern.
I also find that they work.

Of course, it is relative to beliefs and what one is ready for as is everything else.

John,
That exit you were talking about, must've been a revolving door.
I wouldn't be so hard on that little 15 year old if I was you. She is probably just trying out her own ideas on you.
I can't imagine what she said to you but If it was enough to bring you back I would say the universe is trying to give you a message.
If you are trying to pin her message on me you are more paranoid and obsessive than I thought.[img]http://www.cybergifs.com/faces/billcat.gif[/img]
Dan
QUOTE
the proof of the pudding is in the eating.


I was told by an old Brit scientist that this is the original phrasing of an English quote which has been transformed by americans into the quote "the proof is in the pudding".
rhymer
Joe,

I am glad you were not offended by my 'cruel' words about the MSI? article.
My words merely indicate an incompatibility between my way of thinking and the sentence structure or way of explaining concepts, used within that article.
I respect all Faiths!

I have read all the posts on 'enlightenment' this morning, and now realise that I have been enlightened for many years, without realising it as a 'state' of conciousness that had a human-given name.

I am now moving even higher and wonder what the next state is called, if anything. I still seek higher ultimate truths, for whilst I have models (unproveable) of causes I have no sensible explanation for purpose, if one (or more) there be.
I believe there was never a 'Start' to 'time'.
Whilst there may be an end to things as we know them, that will not be end.
IT is endless. IT was beginningless.
I had a start and I will have a finish - no control over either - little control in between either in reality!

Best regards, Bill.
Best regards, Bill.
joe
Only your experiences of you have a start and a finish you will exist for eternity.
peachypete
Yawn!!!!!!!!
Laz
Hi, it looks like i missed the boat!

Probably not worth me following up any of the posts by John or PJ if they have left the site now.

I will have a read of Joes big post though, and see if i have any comments...

Shawn
QUOTE

I will have a read of Joes big post though, and see if i have any comments...


Joe should write a book......Seriously!  

How about it, Joe, is this something you'd consider doing?


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