Reason sees only the reality of reason
The heart feels only the reality of emotion
The senses know only the reality of experience
All are both real and not-real
All are different, but related
All are equal

I had something of a philosophical epiphany the other night and I wrote this down. It doesn't come near to expressing the ideas whirling through my brain, but it kind of gives you the basics. Anyone understand what I'm getting at? Any thoughts?

I understand it completely.  I had a thought once.

seanf,

Sounds like your epiphany has all the ingredients necessary.  Brevity, clarity and shortness of breath.(The breathing type of breath).
Sounds like it may also be an insight connected to your studies involving Kant, since it has his clarity.  How right is this?

Joe, your insight sounds like a reflective resonance.
I would like to hear what you have to say.
I am still distracted by your graphic, it seems discordant to what you have said so far, is this a division in your message of peace, or a harbinger of things to come?
I understand the metaphor of having to change your thinking in order to transform, but find the constant glaring of the message too apocalyptic for at least my tastes.  Like a neon sign in church.  I sense what you have to say may be overshadowed by the constant shouting.  Pox

Well ok then how is this? Generally I don't always accomodate others to help them keep their limitations intact like physical appearances that keep one from seeing what is underneath. It is good that you can see that there is more to a book than its cover but I would try to be less invested in the things that can draw your attention outward so easily. This kind of thing will distract you from many deeper or subtler aspects of reality as long as you give so much value to aversion and attraction.
Quote:
Reason sees only the reality of reason
The heart feels only the reality of emotion
The senses know only the reality of experience
All are both real and not-real
All are different, but related
All are equal
Response:
Reason is based on ideas, ideas born within borders and rules.
This is this way because.... that sort of thing, and yet each person has their own experience around each event. the separation of experience and interpretation sets a foundation in the reality of separation and individualism, it sets the foundation for question and fear as we make comparisons and look for conformation within constant change. We keep looking for a constant and as we do this we label things we can agree on that will support our beliefs and experiences. Sometimes we don't agree or even believe in some of the truths we accept but we accept them anyway for without a foundation for belief we are subject to random process built from nothing. No one wants to live without structure, it terrifies the ego.

The heart knows no reason, the true heart is not swayed by emotions like the emotional heart which is built on judgments of right and wrong good and bad, beauty and ugliness, or simply put duality. It knows inside, the reality that all is created "from," and "in," unconditional love. It is the energy of creation, it has NO CONDITIONS. There are no conditions set that one thing can be created and another can't. Certain foundations of belief guide creation into courses of action but once the mindset is changed, everything around the mindset conforms to the way of thinking. The heart knows no limitations and is always connected to and drawn to stay connected to its highest reality of union with God or unlimited potential.
Someone said I seem to pontificate at times and I think this is only an interpretation that is derived because I use the word God. This has deep rooted meanings to many people. The basic understandings that go along with that word are wrapped around beliefs of some arrogant bastard sitting somewhere up in the sky challenging everyone to be good enough to be accepted and favored by the supreme being, born in sin and less than perfect religion tries to convey the message that you are unworthy and God will judge you.
The heart knows that love is unconditional and with every person is the one true desire to unite with eternal peace and tranquility to achieve eternal happiness, free from fear and stress. We try to do this by creating our lives with things that hopefully will satisfy that desire. Either a person a car a house a stereo, if we get enough of these things then life will be closer to completion and we may be fulfilled, but we are always looking for the next thing. No thing is ever enough. The car gets old and the factory comes out with a better model, the person we attach ourselves to changes in appearance as time goes on but as our love continues it is not unusual that we are attracted to others and we then question our selves and our ability to be satisfied with one relationship. The heart keeps driving us forward to achive union with God and as long as the stress of beliefs keep coloring true union with so many ideas, we will continue to follow the elusive shiny object. The true heart doesn't really believe in predjudice, fear and hatred as a normal way of life,  you may accept it but you won't accept it in perfect peace and without fear that the chaos will someday manifest itself in your experiences and in your life. No one likes to be judged, hated or separated from the whole. The heart can't accept this as the final reality, it knows better and even if you don't listen it will remain in its knowing. That, when listened to is called faith.

The senses are the five senses you have developed from birth. I liked what someone put on a post about a quote from OSHO. From birth you are trained to look outward with your senses to see and know who you are. You the essence of you is not what is on the outside and certainly not what appearances create. You know this from reading my posts and trying to connect the avatar of the exploding head and what you read. The conflict is in the interpretation of form and the judgments you have about the two forms. What I write I know from the heart and what you hear is the resonance of your own heart and it doesn't sit well with your minds concepts and the visual interpretations that are supported by those concepts.

Experiences come and go and depending on the programming of the individual one mans saviour is anothers cult leader. Pro-choice to some is freedom and to others demonic and inhumane. Somehwere there has to be a balance.

God can and will play any part in creating completely different things, opposites, and it is up to you to see that they can exist together in form and idea but that there are greater realities and one is illusion and the other pure potential.
First there is a mountain then there is no mountain then there is.
When one first starts to look inward and discovers what is called the absolute, the immersion into it and the discovery that it exists in everything makes all illusions or manifestations of reality secondary. First there is a mountain, the illusions of ideas where some people experience one thing and others another, a collection of beleifs and experiences that seem real. Then there is no mountain, once the experience of the absolute permeates all illusions of reality they are replaced by the absolute and the illusions become shadows, mirages in consciousness. Then there is a mountain. Once one unites with consciousness they are aware that consciousness recognises itself and as long as it is active cannot separate itself from anything. Manifest realities are only aspects or projections of the infinite but the form is expression and it is of God and God doesn't judge, only creates. It is the nature of God to create and so even though it doesn't really exist (creation) it can't not exist or God would not be active. It is a paradox in understanding but it can be understood if experienced, it cannot be contained or explained to create understanding but it can be experienced.
The Self is never separate, or God is never separate from its creation for God is creation so both exist but they are only ideas. Only Ego takes the idea and solidifies it into form, sets boundaries and makes rules. God or the Self knows no boundaries and no rules. There are no rules or boundaries that we as humans haven't self imposed.
The poem is a leader into his knowing and higher realities. God speaks thru the voice of the holy spirit  and it speaks thru anyone when ego steps aside. This happens occasionally when stress is not present or all the time when ego has become servant rather than master.
I hope you like the new avatar and the description but there will always be more, unitl you step into union with who you really are.

Joe,
Thanks much.  I understand that every thing that formed your life now formulates your life.
So, I am slow learner, but not a no-learner,  My speed is just different than yours.  Its like a radio station,  until I am tuned into the right wave length, nothing comes through.  So, thanks for slowing down, if I don't hear, your talk is wasted. (existential metaphor for the cognicentii that may be tuned in..)

See, I think I'm a pretty neat guy that knows that everyone out there is the enemy, (hold over from youth),
and I better conform,  (The damnist of lies that we suffer with throughout life.).
So, I want to listen, you have something to say.  I do not want my eyes to glare over.  Since I cannot adjust my frequency to yours, I asked you to adjust yours to mine.  You did.  Thank you.
Out of chaos,
John

You two are leaving me behind! Joe, your post is mostly beyond me at present. Hopefully I can come to some understanding later. I'd like to understand you, although as far as I can tell I don't think I'll agree. I'm not sure whether or in what way I believe in God. I'ts a word that can be used to mean a hell of a lot of different things, so I prefer to be cautious about using it. Something from your post seemed to resonate with my ideas -"It is a paradox in understanding but it can be understood if experienced" - I like this. Another thing I wrote down later on was "There is no such thing as illusion - but there has to be." I think paradox is important. Synchronox, you are right about this being linked to Kant. I was looking for a way to reconcile his (very admirable) exploration of reason with other conflicting ideas and feelings I had. Then it hit me that, although reason can lead to a truth, it is not necessarily the whole truth (if such a thing exists or has meaning). That's when I came up with what I wrote in my original post.

Omniscience is omnipresent and so there are many ways to reach the infinite. The word God does have negative connotations for some and the reaction to language leaves some behind because they have an aversion to the memories or programs that are lit when they are ignited by the sparks that bring them to the forefront.
I remember a time when I went on a field trip with my 4th grade class to china town. I had the flu but I went anyway. We went to eat at a chinese restaurant and I ate some sukiyaki, and to this day when I hear it or think about it I remember hurling in the aisle of the bus.
I used to hate the idea of what everyone called God until I experienced God myself. It is nothing like what anyone has ever described or ever could describe. There is nothing but pure unconditional Love in the presence of That. God does not judge and loves an axe murderer as much as the saint. Both are born of the same parent and the action of the form is only known as the same energy. The form is only a thought or an idea that takes place within a design of many thoughts to lead in karmic direction.
Synchronox: what formulates your life actually goes way beyond what you know and experience. Ego bases its reality in form and past impressions. Once you free yourself from form then who and what you are is not based on anything past or present. You are and have always been and always will be. There is only a thin veil that separates your inner self and the outer self. That is why life has been described as an illusion because based on your point of reference or your past it can be, and is as different as any idea. You are more than the sum of all ideas, much more than any single idea, that is also a description that points the way towards God.
Christ said I and my father are one because he knew no difference between himself and God, in his constant experience that was the nature of his reality. That is the destiny of everyone that lives in separation and is moving inward through the Idea of evolution. The outside always mirrors the inside, very few pay any attention to the inside.
Another way to look at the idea of me slowing down is to take in what has come to let the pieces fall into place to paint the picture. One just has to be patient to let it come into focus. Instant gratification is a self defeating habit, it takes the mind out into probable or possible futures and designs and ignores the pure perfection of the given moment as it is judged as wrong or not enough.

Joe, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But when I “experienced God myself” Instead of reverting to the religion society force-feed me as a child I reverted to atheism until I found what I accepted as true then I looked at all the religions I could find and the one that just seemed right was Wicca. The philosophies and teachings are all the truths that I found within myself. For me I found the Gods, for you it is a God.

My question then would be do you see a separation between the two?

A lot depends on what you mean by God(s), being(s), force(s), the conciousness of existence itself?The reason I don't like using it is because people tend to misinterpret what I mean by it. What do you mean by it, Joe?

If I had seen a cow and you hadn't would my description do justice to what your mind would dream without your own personal experience to relate to?

Where most draw lines in the sand or get lost in understanding is in interpretations of the same thing that are uniquely experienced or not experienced(ignored) by the individual.

Now take two people that have seen the cow and a third who has not. Both of the cow experienced now describe the cow to the cow unexperienced. If the description was not the same which description would be the right one?

The paradox of any teaching is the interpretations attached to form. God is formless and association is always related to foundations built in form and past impressions.

Now take 5 cow experienced people and put them in a room and talk about the cow. What would be the determining factor that would allow agreement between the 5 unique impressions if the experiences and descriptions varied?
It is not the description or even the allowance for personal experience, the intent of the language would carry a resonance of the  construct or essence of the cow, this is a subtle aspect to reality that is often overlooked.
Once exposed to the resonance it is part of the being and can be recognised by another who has had the same resonance imprinted in awareness. Only the minds interpretations could possibly get in the way.
Similarly with consciousness and God.

The Akasha is a description of the memory bank of God. Lets say God being omniscient contains every thought and idea that is, could be or was and ever will be, always. What would keep god from knowing it always or what would cause God to forget something?
What keeps you from remembering a scenario that happened several years ago, or someones name, or a thought that just was there other than the minds preoccupation with something that keeps you from realizing it or remembering?
The waking state mind is usually preoccupied with 100,000 thoughts per day, these thoughts are usually repetative.            

Subjective beliefs based on experiences lay illusiory foundations that cloud the stillness of the mind the kind of experience that would also allow clarity of mind to draw on any thought or experience without a veil of forgetfulness or hesitation in thought.
The mind can only effectively do one thing at a time and if it is caught up in a myriad of thoughts it is less affective.

If you could still the mind you would experience God and omniscence but then again with so many past impressions to layer your vision would you recogniZe or understand God that has been described by another that had no layers to cloud the vision?
God would be subjective to the filters of experiences in judgments feelings etc. Pure isness of God is like a still pond. Drop an idea or one pebble into the field of God and it ripples out into the universe and creation is born. Look into the still pond and a clear reflection of yourself is there. Drop many ideas that conflict into the pond and creation is in chaos, some ideas cancel others out and when you look into the pond there is no reflection other than the conflicting turbulence of the waves.
God is perfect stillness and perfect clarity, no self worth problems no forgetfulness, no judgments, no hatred, only pure unconditional love. Any description you give to God and consciousness is going to fall short of the actual experience of it.
You know God, what you judge of the idea of God may get in the way of what god is but you know God already. The question would be do you recognise God or parts of what you would like God to be? Do you recognize yourself as God because to know God is to go inside rather than look anywhere outside. Everything one needs to know of God is no further than inside your Self.

Joe,

We all have to build a scaffolding that allows us as individuals to climb up.
Your building of that structure is a personal endeavor that only you can move upon.
I could not hear your language as it fabricated out of your scaffolding.
I just wanted you to come down out of your skyscaper and me to come down from mine and meet me in the street so that we could talk and compare notes, that's all.
I think we are headed in the same direction.
I do not wish to disagree, but I can ask questions and show you where I am coming from.  The problem I have with your appreciation of some inner experience is your acceptance of a God model.  If you are in touch with God;  What does he look like?  How is he helping you?
In other words, does he only help you in feeling in an expansive way?  This is a mighty word you conjure up for this entity that is the Commander General of the known and unknown world.  Can you heal?  There is a lot of sickness in his world.  Why the sickness? Have you asked?  That and a thousand other considerations keeps me from labeling this entity that I too am in touch with as God.  I do not mean to be a reductionist, but I can only deal with what I've got a hold of.  If you are in touch with this Supreme Creature, why not bring some good into this impoverished world instead of proclaiming who he is and feeling warm inside.  Have I done you a dis-service or do I again mis-understand?

seanf, At your age, I suggest you will build a building that will blot out the rays of the Sun on the street below.  Don't allow any supposed institutionalized mentor to reduce your demonstrated capacity to reason things out and make your own conclusions valid over all others.  Your instincts are the only things you have that save you from the world that would program you into some hole on their board.  Your insights are right on.
John

Your conception of God is not the same as mine. God is not a person but the totality of everything.
When the masters of the past including christ walked the earth the mass consciousness of the planet had reached a point of emptyness. Like many who have epiphanies when suicidal the overall collective consciousness, created a manifestation or representation of God. What ego could look at and identify with. These teachers fully conscious and united with all of creation walked the planet vibrating with the resonance of everything in creation. Where a man lay in pain and suffering of disease the teacher would stand in the presence of the dark belief and illuminate the darkness that was the prevailing belief and dissolve any aspect of thought of what would cause the illness and the body would automatically transform to its new experience or understanding of infinite being. In such perfection no dis-ease can exist. Like an icecube that melts in the changing environment of heat the mind exposed to omniscience expands beyond all limitations of the body.

You seem to see the problems of the world as a bad thing and would like to erase it from your view and concepts that others can also suffer.

Lets suppose for a moment you are a playwrite and you cast your characters on the stage. One is a leper another a wealthy king and another a carpenter. Each plays the part until the play is over and they change  clothes and go home.
The soul is immortal and does not lose its integrity of immortality when it embodies itself in the disguise of human.
Ego believes it is mortal and most don't believe in any kind of afterlife let alone any kind of subtle life other than what one can realize with the 5 senses.
God is much bigger than suffereing and not suffering. God is all things and only interpretation wants to divide the idea of god into bliss in form only, they wouldn't dream of God as the serial killer, rapist or leper. God is way beyond such things. Blah!
People have such limited concepts of reality to include God in all forms and Ideas.
If you are aligned and anchored in the awareness of the immortal self there is only the illusion of suffering.
I can't convince you or any one else of the reality of life, you will only see what you can see and understand.
No one can grasp the infinite from the level of the finite. as long as one believes in their experience as all there is in any given moment they cannot allow themselves to recognize anything more.
When one sits in the awareness of God one sits in the awareness of being all the things, both the illusiory suffering and non suffering, like parts of a play that has a direction all parts are crucial to the scheme of things. From the persecution of the jew in the concentration camps to charles manson each moment is integrated into the collective consciousness to push the ego past its fear to ask what is this?
Consciousness creates ego and separation to push itself deeper into the infinite reality of its self. It does that to create a path of return when it creates the path of leaving its union. That is the nature of duality.
Imagine an eternity of immortality and the ability to do anything. At first from your own personal interest you might do what you always wanted but what next? and remember you have eternity to do whatever you wanted to.
Ever watch the movie ground hog day with Bill Murry?
Everyday would repeat itself for him, he went to bed at night and woke up to the same day and the same series of events. He got so bored he walked in front of a moving truck because he new he would wake up the next morning. He drove a car off of a cliff because he new hed get up the next morning. He robbed a bank because he knew if he got caught he would get up the next morning to pure potential to create whatever kind of day he wanted. after a while when his bordome and negativity passed he finally realised he could evolve within the reoccuring events. even if the surroundings didn't change he could still remember the day before and grow and make himself better to reach a greater potential. One day he doesn't play the piano and the next he has mastered it. A mind set free from the worry of mortality appreciates all aspects of creation and moves quicky through the evolutionary process, perfection blooms in the sight of the freed man. Heaven on earth dawns when the immortal soul is realized and the thoughts of fear and judgment dissolve. If everyone was to achieve this awakening the entire planet would transform from its change in beliefs. Greed would disappear, perfect health would be created no need for police doctors or lawyers.
If you leave the mind in its subjective beliefs that suffering and mortality is real then no matter what you do to the outside the collective mind will return the conditions to what they were before they were changed. It happens over and over again. Some self righteous group rushes in to some impoverished area and spends millions of charitable dollars to try and change a suffering group and as soon as they leave the conditions return.
Change comes from within and if it takes suffering to push someone towards changing themselves then it becomes a blessing that something was created to change the downward spiraling consciousness of that person.
Humans can both devolve and evolve. either direction it produces the same results after time and evolution runs its course. Evolutions process can be speeded up by turning away from the beliefs of the world and its many interpretations. you have to focus on the one thing that always ends up being there after you have had enough time playing in the relative experiences of your beliefs in your limited self and the world.
God is very accomodating in that God is whatever appearance and experience needs to be in order for you to see just how far you extend in possibilities.
You can extend your self into more than one reality and experience the totality of as many as you wish to create but like the old saying wherever you go there you are. The basis of what and who you are is infinite bliss and love and I don't mean a feeling. but love as a supporting foundation for all concievable realites.
You are still trying to understand God from whatever concepts you have accumulated in this lifetime and have not yet tapped into the other thousands of lifetimes you have existed. Probably because you can't identify with the possibility that they could exist along side with what you are experiencing. Most can't handle the one life experience let alone multiple experiences.

Where you go with this is going to be subject to what you can accept and concieve of. I tell you these things not to convince you but to challenge your one place of vision and awareness.
Why? Because you asked me to. From here we make choices to do whatever comes next and there is no reason to go in any particular direction, but direction is cumulative,  in that it always ends up back where it starts, from infinte source in bliss and transcendance and back again.

Joe,

You have arrogantly presumed to tell me about what I think and what you think I am doing while sighting down your nose from a great height.  I saw you do the same thing with Shawn.  I only speak for myself.
Let me return the favor.
I think you stood too close to this incoming entity and your ego got inflated and is running the show thinking it is god.
I know that you know something, but you just plain pontificate from a very high ego position.
Just like a born again Christian gets possessed by the Christ archetype.  Great verbosity, no humor, says the same thing over and over again with great gravity and judges.  We have seen this model before throughout history.  You just don't remind me of any god.  The hairs on my arm just did not stand at attention for your show.  You did not pass my god-armhair test.  I have to withdraw and work on my show that is coming up soon and of course, you can reciprocate.  I am working on an inner ear equilibrium effect myself, great effects, great effects.
In brotherhood,
John

Well the circle is complete now isn't it.
Everyone here has told the other what they think the other is saying from their own persepctive and individuality still rules.

People are so easily offended. What a waste of energy

You're both right.

Joe, I think I understand some of what you are saying, and I appreciate that you are stating your beliefs. You seem to admit the truth that your experience of God is limited by your own experience - have you considered your basis of the universe in love could come from Christian society. As I see it, hate is as much a part of humanity (and the totality - God) as love is. The elevation of love is great for survival and human brotherhood, but not necessarily a reflection of truth. I appreciate that this will seem like ignorance on my part to you.

Synchronox, your insights and advice are great, and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for them, but you do seem a bit quick to label others arrogant sometimes. I think you also might want to think of God seperately from human values - suffering seems bad to us, but then our views might be pretty insignificant next to the totality of existence.

Joe,
We are seperate individuals with seperate ego based psyches.  That is the world we were born into.  To recognize this is to recognize reality.  That is the dilemma we are in.  To do what you suggest is to create another India with eight million gurus with poverty and death the order of the day.  The Brahman abondoning the store to do what you are suggesting.  
Avoiding reality by going to the right brain and blissing out.
Get real.
John

Trying to defend Joe should be interesting, so I'll try it.
Haven't you ever felt like part of a totality rather than just an i, synchronox?

haven't you ever felt like the Totality?

I AM

seanf,

First,  I recognize I can not transcend the ladder, but must ascend it rung by rung, this not to deny the presence of something larger that I cannot comprehend.  My only way to take the route that I can possibly do something about.
Second, when someone shows up that says he is in touch with god and wants to indicate that I am doing something wrong, it is a dramatic indication that he is inflated and speaking behind the lofty disguise of being god advised.
If he is truly not in touch with this world, mocks the occupants from a stern judging know it all position, then I suspect his god is the old patriarchal god that has been resposible for killing so many in his name.  I would rather not drift toward that version of god.  My way is my way, the only one I am capable to select that I am responsible for,  his way is his way, but he better not tell me what to do from his, what I detect,   lofty egotistcal position.
I suspected what I would encounter from his flashing logo with a mans head shot off endlessly flashing on and off.  Violence, judgement, condescending attitude.  The old way of superior beings ordering around the peons.  We have had  thousands of years of this and it is time to end.  This lost in bliss state with its attendant 'you poor ignoramus' attitude has wrecked havoc on this world.
Happy trails,
John

I think the only way Joe can hold his center is to talk 'down' (that is probably true for anybody), but his 'down' view seems to be hindu-proselytic which can be terribly annoying

8)

If I were God I would rather laugh at you.

Muahahahahaha!!!

p.s.  I'm not laughing at Dan  ;)

I am sooo powerful....
I am capable of climbing inside of your minds and flipping the switches that make you feel what you feel. and You have no ability to defend yourself from my power.

I am amused at the power you give me to be able to talk down to you and be arrogant. I guess it is all in what you want the universe to be and you will always be the victim to circumstance.
Synchronox, you are most welcome to believe whatever reality is the true reality. I am quite sure you will be able to live your life from your interpretation and maintain that it is the only true reality. However your interpretations of what I have said are far from what I experience or have tried to convey. The silly idea of what a brahman is and what you and shawn believe or interpret from these words are limited.
India is in a sad state because they follow the same ideas about God and consciousness as you do. They were at one time one of the mose enlightened people on the planet. but that was 5000 years ago.

Seanf, The word Love that I refer to includes hate, hate is twisted love. All forms are forms of Love. The reason it is frequently called love is because it supports all action.
I think everyone here would be less offended by their hatred for words that are automatically associated with dogma if I changed a few of them, or I used a word that fits their idea of what I am talking about if they were able to sidestep their emotional attachment to their own interpretations, and language.
God: all that is, isness, collective consciousness, the force. pick one that doesn't make you hurl so that you might feel better. IT is important that you remove the pea from under the mattress.

Love: Energy, guided molecular force that creates both life and death and everything inbetween, it is what makes molecules move and vibrate, it exists in frequency of light and denser forms. Like water it can be solid liquid or gaseous in interpretation and is guided by force.

predjudice based on misunderstandings and lines that are drawn in what is known is what kills imagination and people.

pbbttbtbttbbtbtbt  



(that goes for Joe too)

Joe,

OK, my way of thinking caused India to be in the mess they are now in, but, one question who is the practitioner of the Indian method, me or you?

I didn't give you any power over me, in fact, I blew the whistle on your arrogation of that presumption.

If you are in a god like state, what are you doing with arguing with a low life like me?

There are 156 different emotional states, why limit your perceptions to one?  You are just cutting yourself away from this world.

My bet is that you and others like you are in an insulating process that might save your lttle fanny from living life fully in this life, but leave you an empty bag at the end.  Deny, withdraw, inflate and sneer.  What a way to enlightenment.

seanf,
Yes I am arrogant and egotistical.  It is like spice, a little pepper and cayenne, we were born with a full array of these gifts.  Use them modestly and prosper, get the drive to create your own world.  Deny their existance and they will emerge in another state, that is the nature of repressed contents.  Manage what you have or they will manage you.
John

QUOTE

The silly idea of what a brahman is and what you and shawn believe or interpret from these words are limited.

 
How'd I get dragged into this?

Quote:  OK, my way of thinking caused India to be in the mess they are now in, but, one question who is the practitioner of the Indian method, me or you?

Response:  What Indian method? Who said anything about any method that is owned or operated primarily by India?

Quote:  I didn't give you any power over me, in fact, I blew the whistle on your arrogation of that presumption.

Response:  What presumption, I presume nothing. All I did was say a few words and you labeled them.

Quote:  If you are in a god like state, what are you doing with arguing with a low life like me?

Response:  You limit God to ____________________ (fill in the blank please).
And you limit yourself to what highest or lowest possibility?__________________________(fill in the blank)

Quote:  There are 156 different emotional states, why limit your perceptions to one?  You are just cutting yourself away from this world.

Response:   All 156 emotional states; are they experienced by any ONE individual? If so is that one individual born with the capability intact, the senses that are capable of experiencing them? Are the senses fully functional at birth or are they developed?
And if so who is that one person? Is the person the senses or the person with the senses? which is the reference point? In multiple realities are you all of the realities and experiences or the one having the experience of the realities?
If you get lost in a fit of rage are you, or do you become the rage or do you change from the experiencer to the experience and back to the experiencer? Which do you use as your point of reference or what is the natural point of reference?
I limit myself to no thing, there are no limits.

Quote:  My bet is that you and others like you are in an insulating process that might save your lttle fanny from living life fully in this life, but leave you an empty bag at the end.  Deny, withdraw, inflate and sneer.  What a way to enlightenment.

Response: Most people live there lives fully with the idea that all there is is what you can grab before the inevitable (death) awaits them, only to end up with a full bag stapled to their hip as their body decays into what they expected.
As they hurry to grab what they see in the haste to pile it all in they miss what is in front of them. They never stop to smell the roses so to speak.
Which is the fuller life? The one that is driven by fear and impatience to achieve instant gratification and security? Or the one that is filled with gratitude, natural peace, security and fulfillment without the need for anything external to support it?
I think you are placing a bet on an emotional reaction that you have to my words and my refusal to accept any reality as being anything other than a concept within a singular universal point of reference that lives within everything.

Shawn: Do you feel victim to something? Are you being dragged into something? Are you drag-able?

just curious:  how many ppl here have gone thru near-death experience (NDE)?   Death teaches one how to live, teaches one what's important.  One must pass thru Death before one truly experiences Life.  

a thought:  while difference of opinion and perspective is certainly encouraged, things shouldn't get too personal.  Are we not the same Self, deluded by our individuality for the most part, but still the same Self nonetheless?

Ask yourself, 'What am I?'    
answer 1: the universe conscious of itself;
answer 2: the whole totality, which is contained in me.  That is my Being, that is the immanence/omnipresence of God, the divine within.

question: Who is the deluder and who is the deluded?

Anway, back to this thread!

QUOTE

Which is the fuller life? The one that is driven by fear and impatience to achieve instant gratification and security? Or the one that is filled with gratitude, natural peace, security and fulfillment without the need for anything external to support it?

So are you saying you have no will, motivations, longings, or aspirations regarding this world?  What ever happened to Divine Agency?  Do you not feel this, or are you simply content being in a state of 'singular consciousness' all or most of the time?

I would unequivocally say that an even fuller life is that in which one had experienced incomparably transcendent states of cosmic-consciousness, had experienced the Self, and at the same time, was able to come back to the 'normal' world to bring about great change thru the action of a supraordinary agency.  

You see, there are two aspects to a satisfying life: 1)agency (or action), and 2) perception.    I often get the impression that you think there's just one aspect to a satisfying life, Joe.

Thus, according to my criteria, to be the Hand of God (i.e., the 'agency' aspect), and to possess God-consciousness (i.e., the 'perception' aspect) would be the fullest life of all, wouldn't you agree?  

QUOTE

Shawn: Do you feel victim to something? Are you being dragged into something? Are you drag-able?

Now you're just being silly, Joe, since I'm sure you well know that I am victim to nothing, nor am I drag-able.  People should know how to discern playfulness from seriousness, and hence interpret my 'dragging' comment above appropriately.  Of course, I'm not accusing anyone of a lack of discernment since I don't know with certainty what your intentions were, though you should've known what mine were since you claimed in another thread that you possessed omniscience.    I realize this may be going against your monistic notions, but sometimes it's useful to make a distinction between yourself and the Supreme Reality, since the latter may well be omniscient, but you personally are not, or at least do not have any sort of conscious access to such omniscience.

namaste,
Shawn

Shawn: So are you saying you have no will, motivations, longings, or aspirations regarding this world?  What ever happened to Divine Agency?  Do you not feel this, or are you simply content being in a state of 'singular consciousness' all or most of the time?

Joe: All will motivation, desire etc. Become divine when united in the one consciousness. Life becomes intensely more enjoyable in this state of multidimensional consciousness that is anchored in the one knower which is born of and is the one.

Shawn: I would unequivocally say that an even fuller life is that in which one had experienced incomparably transcendent states of cosmic-consciousness, had experienced the Self, and at the same time, was able to come back to the 'normal' world to bring about great change thru the action of a supraordinary agency.

Joe: What you call normal leads to the idea that the supernormal is a product of the world of boundaries. More akin to the multidimensional is the dream and this world is the real world. This would make the Self and the multidimensional realities the illusion and this finite world the beginning and the end.
I'm sure you have no intention to follow this line of thinking but following words based on limited definitions are certainly misleading aren't they.  

Shawn: Now you're just being silly, Joe, since I'm sure you well know that I am victim to nothing, nor am I drag-able.  People should know how to discern playfulness from seriousness, and hence interpret my 'dragging' comment above appropriately.  Of course, I'm not accusing anyone of a lack of discernment since I don't know with certainty what your intentions were, though you should've known what mine were since you claimed in another thread that you possessed omniscience.    I realize this may be going against your monistic notions, but sometimes it's useful to make a distinction between yourself and the Supreme Reality, since the latter may well be omniscient, but you personally are not, or at least do not have any sort of conscious access to such omniscience.

Of course I was being silly but how come now you want to be so serious? did my playfulness break yours? or are we both being playful now?

As for the latter part regarding omniscience,and my connection to it; well if your satisfied that I am not then that is all that counts right?

O.K, a lot has happened since I last looked.

Joe - I don't think Synchronox has a problem so much with your ideas (your view of god as a whole and the capacity to reach this 'divine self'), as with your idea that you have reached this divine enlightenment (please bear with my terms according to your own ideas), and that you therefore know better than others, and I'm beginning to see his point - will you admit the possibility you could be wrong? It would make this disussion less pointed.

Shawn - "Are we not the same Self, deluded by our individuality for the most part, but still the same Self nonetheless?" You seem to assume we agree with you on this. I'm unsure, and I'm pretty sure from his posts that Synchronox doesn't positively agree (correct me if I'm wrong, Synchronox). Also, a level of inner conflict is good for the self - it helps create evolution. Hmm, that raises a point - can the universal self (if such a thing exists) evolve and change? Or is the change in the universe we know an illusion? I favour the former - views?

Wrong in what way?

One problem I see is believing you totally know God because you perceived him. Like saying you are having the cosmic consciousness of oneness with Him and therefore you know everything.

This certainly would be a misinterpretation. You always will be a human, no matter how far you expand your consciouness. God will always be more. He will always know better than you what is happening right now in the galaxy NGC 1542, and he knows better what happened between this particular tyrannosaurus and the stegosaurus on this very sunny day with the eclipse in the area that is now the Rocky Mountains.
Meaning that I agree with Shawn in that your states of consciousness are relative. You might get a glimpse of the absolute in them, but you never will be identical with this absolute. Not in the way as all the water on earth is identical with all the water on earth. Only in the way as the water in a raindrop is identical with the water in the ocean, but I wouldn't call that identical  if you're talking about union with God because you sure have noticed into what misunderstandings it brings you. (For yourself as well as for the others.)

seanf,

Yes, I recognize Joe's right to think whatever he wants.
but I resent his hyperbole and judgemental argument with inference that everyone else is wrong.  This in spite of being in touch with many throughout my life like him and knowing I can never change his mind.  It is an excersize to articulate my own arguments anyway.  That's what I tell myself.  He is a Trickster, always another argument, so I try not to answer him too directly, at this point a waste of time but a great opportunity to display my own great wit and wisdom and humility.

As to Shawn, yes, but we have agreed to disagree and perhaps find a common ground on which to stand.  he is a perceiver instead of a judgementer.  Perceivers are open and conscious, judgementers are closed and driven by fixed arguments in the unconscious.  Not to take an extra swipe at anyone.
I would refer you to the new string about mind (edit: Is our mind our God?)where Joe and I are having a collateral discussion that is parallel to this one with a neat reference to gaming, he said modestly.
Nice insights Numinoso.
Joe,  My wife stopped by and admired your frog logo, she is nuts about frogs.
Best to all and to all a good day,
John

Frog? I thought it was a monster! That's what the title was on the website I took it from..............

Trickster eh? Well since we are fighting for a single truth and you wish to negate mine and any possible understanding of the vastness of God then I guess we will limit our abilities to be anything other than plain ol humans.

If anyone here ever does wish to step outside of the human experience to touch and experience God you will have a difficult time ever describing the totality of God or bring the totality of God to any bulletin board. No one ever believes anything until they experience for themselves. The world was flat for a long long time and no one believed other wise until they actually got to have an experience of something different.

Until then we will limit the ability of God to inhabit form and also experience itself in and out of form at the same time. Seems like a limited thought but that is what keeps man locked in his lesser ideas of evolution as he tries to maintain superiority in thoughts of what the universe is, and his/her/itself.
After all we should be reasonable. We must be reasonable.

it's tough to step out of them clouds and walk with men, eh Joe?

Joe,

For fear of making the weaker badies faint, I will not agree with you completely.  i agree with you in the main, with the exception of:

Joe:  Trickster eh? Well since we are fighting for a single truth and you wish to negate mine and any possible understanding of the vastness of God then I guess we will limit our abilities to be anything other than plain ol humans.

Synch:  We are talking about the many faces of god here.  I did not wish for you to have me accept your version over mine.  My lot is to scramble for all I am worth to figure out what is acceptable to me.  This is only so that I might finally move ahead.  Your vision may be more than  my straining basket can carry.  I have found a different way to climb the mountain.  Perhaps one that is not so lofty, but one my individuality insists upon.  There has to be shoemakers as well as carpenters.
To the wine and the container,
John

No one has asked you to accept my way over yours. Where could you have possibly interpreted that?
Seriously where did I ever say you were wrong to follow your path of thinking? I may have challenged you and thrown my own experiences at you but mostly what keeps being thrown back at me is "you can't possibly be experiencing what you are experiencing." This is usually a defense mechanism to protect the experience that is different by challenging the one and asking the experiencer to admit it may be wrong or weaker than the one being defended. At least if it can be weakened then it will then join the ranks of other "speculative" approaches to the universe and Self.
Sorry to dissapoint all of you but My experience does not rely on anyone elses approval nor do I need to approve of another who is looking to stabilize theirs by getting approval.
This is the typical application of Ego to single out one truth that will fit only where it can control. You can't control anything. All realities exist in every concievable outcome and foundation that is the diversity of God, but they have a common reference point that allows all of them to exist and it breaks down any need to defend and any illusion of pride. If you can master that then there is no frustration and separation into classes. Carpenters shoemakes garbage men and fools are built from the same foundation they just have different surface appearances. How could you possibly see the divine in each if you can't stay objective regardless of what is being said.

You want to limit the conversation to a particular direction and so you see your reflection in others as they seem to be doing the same. That is the illusion. All aspects of these discussions make up the diversity of God in all expressions. You can see this and still play subjective while being objective. You can see further than that if you step out of the way of the patterns in both logic and spatial thinking and quit trying to identify one or the other or merge it into some amorphous idea.

I know you are but what am I

You are me

OK Joe. I am afraid of you.  You got me.  Iknow you could very possibly cloud my mind and indoctrinate me into getting out of this world alive.  My survival programs just wouldn't let me listen to you.  God, I finally had to admit it.  What do I do now?  please advise by return post.
Your reluctant servant, awaiting enlightenment, I remain,
John, the synchronoxious and  the less than absolute groveling worm.

A small question, please.  Where are you and where are we going to go now, and what are you going to do with me and are there more of us recruits than me and when do we eat?

Live your life.
We eat at 6:00 and you're buying.

I thought I was some other guy

I pack my bags as we speak while breaking open my change bank in anticipation.
Yours in good humor,
John

look dear the human being is not complicated at all .
we are extraordinary creatures but if you thought clearly
about your existense you will see yourself that you are so limited or at all you can see yourself so evlouted , what should you do is simply to know your level,you have to purify your mind and then you should begin by thinking what are you and who are you and why are you!,then you will know the base and you will start by analysing evrything with no difficulitys or complexety .
if you are not able to begin with creating your base you can ask me to help you.
your friend ralf