ok .. now .. people who are christains or just wanna help me.. lol. ya know.. welll see in the  bible it says that  a third would war, the euphrateis (spelling) river would dry up, and alot of other things would happen before god came and the tribulation started.. right? well the river (i aint spelling it again) is so dry you can step across it.. and we are abuot to start war again.. hmm? that mean we HAD better be ready right??grr i dont want it to happen i aint even had TWO boyfrends lol and i aint even had a chance to have people like mE!! dang!! grr! am i right about it hapeneing?? ROoze

even though its the bible, dont believe everything you read youll become a nut case.... and not having two boyfriends yet isnt that bad, ive partners i cant remember anymore, and it sucks, to manny people know too much about me....

later,
Anne

Well, the bible says a lot of things... but it also says that nobody will know when it's gonna happen, there is no way to know ahead of time, we only know that it's gonna happen.(Hmmm, kinda like the singularity?)
So i think the point is to be prepared at all times, we should always be ready. We should always try our best to not be too attached to the world so that when the time comes we can just let go of it and go home.
Being ready includes rightness of thought and rightness of action, but not bein worried or afraid.
So don't worry. Plus i'm sure boyfriend #2 will be along pretty soon, and you already have people that like you

Hey. I don't wanna sound dumb or ne thing but is that river that Roze couldn't spell really dried up already?

almost.. its to where you can step across it with out getting wet.. ROoze*

You are cracked

ecxuse us?! cracked? ann and roze? hello just becasue i am telling you the truth sure as fuck dont mean im cracked iight? ROOze* Ann*
Why would you say we're cracked? because we belive in god? because we want to go in the tribulation? whatever! >:(

I think he means cracked coz u cnt actualy step across it.

Were the hell did u get that from????  ??? ??? ???

I bet my pet that it's gonna rain again and the Euphrates will be full again.

Why in hell do you believe in the Bible? Only just because your mom told you so? What if she had told yo to believe in the Koran? Would you?

no not just becasue my "mom" said so bcuz anything she tells me to do i dont, i don listen to her, but yea maybe it'll rain BUT it wont fill up a whole damn river? no it wont,m and i belive in it bcuz its true!! do you know how mny tihngs have come true out of the bible?? exaclty!Roze

why does Roze believe in the bible??  

Perhaps it's the false sense of authority that the bible tries to radiate, though for true truth-seekers, such dogmatism is laughable and a sure sign of spiritual insecurity and intellectual weakness on a par with pagan nonsense.  I'm right, no?

no ur not.. i dont belive in it jus bcuz it gives me a scence of authority, i belive in it bcuz its true.,. rOze

truth be told the bible is a book of cliches and misconception.
Are you aware that moses did not infact lead his people across the red sea but the "reed" sea infact. this whole misconception has been brought on bye a mis translation of the bible and it is not the only one. in the old testemont a man was let into heaven because he allowed his 2 virgin daughters to be raped in order to save his own life.

This is saintly behaviour apparantly. ???


LostCause ???

i have not read anything taht said tha happened so... i dont know wat your talking about.. im sorry but.. watever.. rOze

I don't know about some of you but I believe the Bible because it gives me a sense of SECURITY. It lets me know that Jesus is the past, the present, and the future. I know he loves me, he loves everyone. I don't read the Bible near as much as I should and I probably don't know that much but I do know that Jesus exists and I also know that when the time comes to go to Heaven if you're not ready thats to bad its going to happen when God wants it to happen so be prepared. No offense to you Lostcause but I don't really believe what you said about the guy letting his two virgin daughters be raped. And the Bible is full of truth and hope.
Ann

Teh bibel has hepped a lot uf peeple.  It hs 2 sides lik
The dude in it lol, has a perfek messige.  A lot of peeple, lol, fouzd peece n solice.
the odder side is the dudes tha tok it over, sur kill ots of pepple  It mkes me feeel reeel god but the dude lolo thrown me direct outt de chuch.  now pls hep me 2
Now a 62 years old can only gets a10tion as a 15years old, so thts fun lol  so cm play its nly inasense.

Ooh, I fergot,  exacilackily, to be perciz.

In reference to earlier discussion : "in the old testemont a man was let into heaven because he allowed his 2 virgin daughters to be raped in order to save his own life," and "No offense to you Lostcause but I don't really believe what you said about the guy letting his two virgin daughters be raped." This is in the bible. I think the man in question is Lot. The quotes from the bible people read out in church are certainly inspiring. Unfrotunately, there are also some quotes that don't get read out, so few people know they are there. Oh, and Roze "i belive in it bcuz its true." This doesn't mean a whole lot. It being true is what you believe. People are asking your reason for believing.

QUOTE

truth be told the bible is a book of cliches and misconception. Are you aware that moses did not infact lead his people across the red sea but the "reed" sea infact. this whole misconception has been brought on bye a mis translation of the bible and it is not the only one. in the old testemont a man was let into heaven because he allowed his 2 virgin daughters to be raped in order to save his own life. This is saintly behaviour apparantly. ??? LostCause ???

Obviously you have not read the entire of the old testemont or you would have read this parable.

If you wish toargue please ask a vicar about the old tetoment and he will tell you that it does not make complete sense.

i am not a liar and it was a christian who believes very strongly in the faith who told me of this. If he can accept so should you!

Dont call me liar with no proof >:(

Lostcause...who called you a liar? I'm thinking your talking about me but I didn't. I merely said that I didn't BELIEVE what you were saying. I never called you a liar and I didn't mean to imply that you are a liar. I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway.
Ann

i am really sorry for what iam gonna say right now
but dear theire is a lot of persons that says that  the bible that you are reading is not completly true and it is the fake one . so  i ask you to not believe evry word we read in the bible
and please can you tell us some informations about you please .

Roze  :D, to keep you updated: The Euphratis is flowing again. The reasons for the the river drying up were
a) a drought
Saddam messing around with the ecosystem of the marshlands.
Anyway, the river is fine, the fish are happy and I hope you too! Forget about the black horsemen of the apocalypse and focus on nice and sweet boyfriends....
Love
PJ

Here is a small compilation of references that demonstrate the loving benevolence of the Christian God.

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

WWJD?  Kill, rape, and plunder apparently.

- Deuteronomy 20: 10-17

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

God is happy when you smash the babies unlucky enough to be born in countries that have incured his wrath.

Psalm 137:9

You must put to death every boy and all the women who have ever had sex. But do not kill the young women who have never had sex. You may keep them for yourselves.

Kill young boys, men, women and babies, but keep the virgins for your harem.  Just be sure to shave them and give them a month to mourn before you rape them.

Number 31:17-18

When you are attacking a town, don't chop down its fruit trees, not even if you have had the town surrounded for a long time. Fruit trees aren't your enemies, and they produce food that you can eat, so don't cut them down.

Kill the people, loot their homes, rape their women, but do not hew down a fruit tree.  God values fruit trees.

Deuteronomy 20:19

The nation of Israel will be ruined, because it fought against God. The people of Israel will die in war; their children shall be torn to pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open




Of course, I will be labeled a bigot and accused of misrepresenting the holy, infalible, inerrent word of God Almight by presenting passages out of context.  And I'm sure some elaborate justification will be produced or created by the ardently faithful, but the horrors you see are undeniable and plain as day.  It is discusting to me how easily these inconvenient texts get white-washed in the God-is-Love rhetoric.  Christianity is at worst a harmful ideology and at best a crutch.  You don't need some mystical sky god to live descent moral lives.  Think about it, if God is omnibenevolent (all-good) then he wants what is best for every individual who has or will ever live.  But if he is omniscient (all-knowing) he was aware of the glaring inadequacy of humanity to live up to his righteously perfect demands.  What kind of sick, sadistical being would go ahead with a botched experiment like that, with full knowledge of the outcome, and then damn the majority of it to an eternity of suffering.  What a nice guy.  This is the problem of evil--theodicy, and it has never been satisfactorily addressed without dispensing of some essential attribute of the Christian God.  Personally, I prefer to dispense of the God concept altogether and instead ground ethical responsibility within the individual.

Note: I use strong language because I feel strongly about this.  Do not be offended.

The gate is wide open, dear christians. But you have to walk out by yourself.
LOVE, PJ  ;D

Or you stay with President Bush, who might be well interested in these passages.

Leaving Christianity was the most difficult decision in all my life.  My whole life was based upon the Christian worldview--my family, my friends, everything I knew.  What pushed me over the edge was when a friend asked me if I could kill a random stranger if God were to personally appear to me and make that demand.  Of course Christians don't believe that God would do such a thing, but the point of the mental excercise was to imagine how you would respond if God actually did.  When I thought about, and I am by disposition a pacifist at least physically, I realized that even if God were to demand that I kill someone for him, I could not do it.  But killing innocent victims is exactly what the God of the Old Testament demanded of his 'chosen people' on a regular basis.  Today we call this genocide.

There was something inside me that revolted at idea of obeying God unconditionally and I realized that if this is the case, that if my moral sense could differ so drastically from the commands of God, then God could not the the ultimate source of morality that I believed him to be.  But then I thought, how can I abandon my whole life like this.  I know nothing beyond my religious worldview.  I was under no small amount of distress because of this crisis.  I wondered how I could turn my back on my faith?  Did I have the courage?  I didn't think that I did.  I would just go on believing because I had too much to lose.  But then, in an epiphany it him me, much like a salvation experience, so to speak.  It is impossible to honestly consider *not* believing without, just for a moment and no matter how scared, actually not believing.  When I asked myself if I had the courage to not believe, right then if only for an instant, I didn't believe.  Once I realized this, disbelieve no longer seemed so scary.  I already had doubt, I just had to accept it, and that is exactly what I did, and I have never regretted my decision.  It was like being born again.

Sounds like you are beginning to see the words in a different light.
The Bible and its translations have been misrepresented by many who would wish to present an idea that can be controlled by Organization. To give the power to the people would take away any ruling class. King James played an integral part in the masking and twisting of truths.
Christs words were meant to give rise to Humanity.
 Where God asked a man to kill his own son to serve God was to ask man how far he was willing to go to step beyond the boundaries of mortal life and meet God at the level of immortality. An approach towards infinite trust.
The intent of truth can still be found within the distorted passages as is God in all things. Interpretations laced in fear and prejudice will always get in the way of clear vision.
God would ask man to step beyond the boundaries of the Ego and the limitations of the physical body to see what is there beyond what the physical eyes can see.
Free will is always given and even God will not step in the way of choice to believe or see whatever you will wish to see.
God is Omniscient and doesn't make mistakes.
Mankinds Ego in its desire to control from limited perspectives only gets in the way of Truths that will enable man to see clearly. God knows the idea must be approached from all angles to solidify the hearts knowing above and beyond the fear based rationalization of the intellect. It's part of the path of return. It's built into all illusions.

It is unfortunate that most christians give leadership and representation to individuals that can only preach from the level of the intellect and contradiction. This was not the intent of Christ to create churches that would dictate the meanings of God from one person to the masses that weren't given fair consideration in the ability to hear the voice of God within themselves. His message was clear enough.
All people are capable of meeting God at Gods level, one only need let all self imposed limitations go and rise above Ego and fear.

Its impossible to be separate from God, that's only an idea, a choice to believe that what you have heard is  untrue and foreign to the heart.
This doesn't mean you can drop God from your life, it simply means the level of beliefs is being dropped for something more tangible. Like Experience.
I can accept anyones word that they have experienced something but it can't be my experience unless I can experience it. Why would anyone take anothers word for anything without going for the experience themselves. Any true teacher will always point the finger back towards the heart and personal expereince.
God is not so cruel as to leave humanity without the ability to experience their own immortality and the only death that will need to be created will be the death of the Ego in its control and attachment to the physical illusions associated with beliefs that are taught, and not experienced.

When the student is ready the Teacher will appear. When the heart is open the experiences will be created to show you who you are. It takes only faith the size of a mustard seed and patience to look through all things to see beyond old habits based in prejudice and judgment. Be willing to take what has been given to you and let it go for something new and the pieces of the puzzle will effortlessly fall into place.

The bible points towards the evolution of the soul in its journey towards union, from separation.
When all things that make sense are gone what is left?
Most see clearest when there is nothing left, or said another way have epiphanies when they hit the lowest point of their life. If you have nothing to look back on then you can see something different. Or you can choose to do it without the drama and just do it now.

Timothy, I can feel how daring and liberating the steps you made have been and how they transformed and opened up your life. I wonder:
When one moves from being a Christian Sheep to a Free Spirit, can one avoid to get stuck in the Big No, in a belief system that denies any meaning? Is it possible to free oneself of dualistic beliefs and conditionings - good, bad, Jesus, Satan? Do you consider the possibility that there still might be a god or any higher being that is not corrupted by fear and power?
Do you experience god as being inside?
Do you experience others as god? Or nature as god?

LOVE, PJ

PiratJenny

I am agnostic in the sense that I do not believe that proof or disproof of God is possible, but in practice I lean towards atheism in the sense that the plausibility of the existing explanations for God, such as Joe's, are unconvincing and often ridiculous.  Ultimately, the existence of any transcendent entity is a matter of faith, and on this point I agree with the theists.  However, faith is like the innocense of childhood.  There comes a point when once that innocense is lost, it can never be regained no matter how much we regret having lost it.  I wish that God really did exist, that there was a heaven, and that my actions in this world were meaningful, but I don't see any reason to believe that these things are true and I do not have the strength to dishonestly convince myself that they are otherwise.

When I say that I don't believe in meaning, what I mean is that I don't believe in ultimate and absolute meaning.  I believe that meaning exists in the things that we value as meaningful, but admittedly this meaning is relative to the individual or community.  Right and wrong are not universal moral standards in this view, but localized norms and the tyranny of totalizing belief systems is circumvented at the cost of the inability to discriminate between what is good and bad--we cannot know what is good and bad for someone else, but only what is good and bad for ourself, which can be a slippery slope to the belief that might makes right.

Both theism and atheism want you to believe that if you adopt their worldview, all of the worlds problems will be solved, but this just isn't true.  I choose atheism because it places moral responsibility upon the individual rather than in some authoritative edict proclaimed by an oligarchial religious organization.

I find that in knowing how fragile and impermant life is, I am able to value and appreciate those things that are really important to me so much more.

Tim,
Listen close.  This is the secret.  Every one leans forward....
The only ism on this side is the one that keeps your strain alive and gives it a bigger share than others in the Petri dish.
If I can bluff you with a bigger brother in back of me, then I get you to back off your share and I puff myself up to give me the courage to take over that share.
God in this world kills people and manipulates because it is a disguise for  survival oriented archetypes.  (Some exceptions, as the Buddists).  This is truth often  misconstrued as cynicism.
I know you know and practice this view.  But, for others watch the dance, the music is usually meant to lull you to sleep or intimidate.  If some one is telling you what to do for your own good, watch their hidden hand to see if it is creeping toward your possessions.

Hated the Petri dish anyway....  Always things trying to dominate and control.  Who likes agar-agar, never ate none anyway.  Wouldn't want to live there, everyone looking expectantly for some appearance.  May be we call this Petri-o-tism.  Sell flags and stuff.

QUOTE

There comes a point when once that innocense is lost, it can never be regained no matter how much we regret having lost it.

Not so grasshopper. Unprogramming the mind is easy.
Unless of course you choose to believe otherwise. Any belief will keep the one proverbial foot nailed to the floor.

Timothy, thank you very much for your reflections. I also feel that losing one´s innocence and maybe finding a more mature form of innocence is part of growing up.
I wonder: You say that you do not believe that your actions in this world are meaningful. How then do you avoid severe depression? Aren´t there meaningful actions that have nothing to do with religion or god? Like saving the whales ;D or helping others or protesting against the war? Or just being a wonderful friend? I might sound naive but I feel that seing NO meaning whatsoever would be a self-destructive belief system.

Joe, I admire your juvenile enthusiams, but have to say that de-programming the mind is not easy. It is possible but it takes  time and dedication. Lot´s of it. Don´t believe me? Well - go and work for a year with traumatized people - tortured refugees or sexually abused children would be a start.
LOVE
PJ

QUOTE

Joe, I admire your juvenile enthusiams, but have to say that de-programming the mind is not easy. It is possible but it takes  time and dedication. Lot´s of it. Don´t believe me? Well - go and work for a year with traumatized people - tortured refugees or sexually abused children would be a start.   LOVE PJ

When one wants to return to innocense and the time is right it is the simplest thing in the world.
You are still looking at wrongs and believing in them. There is no innocense in that vision. These traumatized people that you see, do you see them as victims or creators? Do you see yourself as a victim or a creator?

Start with yourself. Your universe is created by you to show you what you believe it is. If you believe in what you see, the victims and the non-victimized, then the good and bad parts, your world will always be split in two. You can offer advice to people like Tim and suggest they look at the good and not the bad but the duality still exists in your vision as you yourself would tell the world to avoid what is inevitably self destructive on the outside. The world is not self destructive only the human perception and the continuing of beliefs that tear down the human nervous system with stress.

Many look at creativity as rising above the thinking about the bad and doing good. Intent is a great start, saving the whales or the rainforest is a great Idea but the evil that is percieved that these things need to be saved from will still exist.
The greed, fear and ignorance that persists and continues to breed within society.
These things are taught to our children as we maintain the competitive teachings to be good and not bad. Johnny does well in one subject and george does extremely well at all the others. George becomes popular and gets infinite praise as long as he continues to do so well and may grow up to be a well adjusted successful person. Then there is Johnny who struggles against the success of the more successful George. Less recognised and accepting of his lesser status our society categorizes its own people into successful, good, average and now challenged. The separation of praise in the acievements we have labeled and standardized teaches our children that the acceptance of lesser and greater ideas apply to humans and their achievements. Is this fair?
Maybe.
 Some think this inspires the lesser achieving people to be more.
The thing is it is becoming more obvious that this structure of acceptance and belief within society is the ignoring of what we don't want to see.
There is no help for the lesser achieving, they go through schools and graduate not knowing how to read and write. The system can't support the need for the moral support and the attention the children need to believe in themselves rather than the surface appearances that are created around them.
A child comes from a poor family and that child wears second hand clothes,  the system and its peer groups will not accept the person as readily as the more affluent child that is supported in a greater lifestyle.
The value system is continually supported and maintained within society and it is taught from teacher to child, from parent to child. It is in the advertising, TV Movies, Magazines etc. We accept these systems as being real.
What chance does society have when we try to change the outside after the effects of the inner system that is maintained and not changed, continues at its most basic level, the thought process.
Innocense is ripped away from the children of our world and ignorance is taught.
It is easy enough to replace habits and stress but it takes a teacher that has the ability to see through the crap. Not one who has accepted it as normal and continues to maintain the beliefs in struggle and right and wrong.
God is in all things and free will allows choice to see that, the perfection of creation or the evil and injustice of no God and pure victimization by natural forces.
 Choice is the most powerful weapon against fear, hatred and mortality.
To continue to look at the world through the eyes of ignorance changes nothing. To alter the vision is a start but the vison cannot be altered unless you can step back and see what has been created so that you can change it, to see the personal ability of creatorship to rise above self limiting beliefs and thoughts.
The limited approach to accept lesser values will leave the eternal boogeyman alive within the mind and create a level of stress in fear of failure.
Our children deserve better than that. They deserve better than to accept the idea that shit happens and others will always do better or be better or that they can be victims.
Humanity is unique, Humans are the only creatures on the planet that have the choice to evolve or devolve. We teach the choice and perpetuate it with the values and judgments we maintain.
What makes a criminal a criminal. Genes? Color of skin? Or the programming that is available to the indivdual mind set that is shared within our species.

Inside the human body is a conscious collective. Each cell talks to each other. Neuropeptides and reciever sites allow what one cell feels and experiences to transmit those thoughts and feelings to another. The body is a thinking machine.
 Similarly at a greater level we as humans feel others and affect others by our temperaments.

You walk into a room filled with abused children and believe in their suffering, their victimness, feel sadness and the compassion that most humanity feels by dropping into their level of feelings, acceptance in their suffering and sorrow and you do nothing but reinforce the thoughts and beliefs that they suffer and had to suffer. Because there they are, abused and suffering and they were abused and have suffered Right?
Now you try and add some other thoughts to try and change the focus of the thoughts and feelings so they have something else to think about and the memories, the feelings the experiences of suffering are not removed but accepted as truths and will lay there as stress and fear that it can and may be created again. There is no hope you can give them as long as you who believes in the suffering can give them nothing more  than the duality that maintains the beliefs that these attrocities are part of life and have to be accepted as such.
There is a way to break the foundations of these beliefs. To change the way the mind thinks and sees things but it requires the ability to step back from the habitual beliefs that this world as it exists appears.
It takes the desire to see the ability to create from within and the ability to live life from praise gratitude and love, rather than fear anger and judgment.
It takes the willingness to be objective rather than subjective in all things.
Innocense is as easy as you want it to be, and as difficult as you want to make your beliefs be.
There are tools that work.
It may take time and for some it is easier than others but it doesn't take as long to remove the stress and return the awareness to innocense as it took to put it all there.
I would rather live from my juvenile enthusiasm than  adult pessimism.
Ever watch a child fall cry and get back up again? They go on like it never happened.
Ever watch an adult fall? They talk about it for days and make comparisons about whos trauma/drama is most impressive.
What is really hilarious is when you get to be old enough you start reading the obituaries to see who amongst your friends are still alive and who has dropped.
Humanity has such potential and yet it will argue for its limitations.

Joe

I think we share many of the same ideals and values.  While I am less optimistic than you in humanities abilities to achieve these ideals, I do feel that they are worthwhile objectives.  It's just very difficult for me to accept your system of metaphysics that legitimates your system of ethics.

Piratjenny

I believe that in life we have two choices.  We can choose to live and struggle, or we can choose to give up and allow the viccitudes of nature to rule us.  Either way, we are going to die and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference if its at seven or seventy, in the long run.  People die all the time, and when their life is over, the values that they held really don't mean a damn thing.  The universe doesn't care if we butcher each other in war, or save whales, or expand our consciousness.  Its a cruel and indifferent tyrrant, red in tooth and claw.  The only things that are meaningful, in fact the only things that can be meaningful, are those objects which we consciously assign meaning to.  Meaning is our choice to make and, for me, this fact makes it all the more precious, it makes it mine.  It is true, that when we die the meaning we have created dies with us, and for some this burden is too much to bear.  I do not think that this desperate longing for purpose is something that cannot be satisfied without some ultimate point of reference, and I believe that local self-defined values are more meaningful than the pre-existing and absolute values that we often adopt by mere virtue of the fact that they are our own, and not imposed upon us by some external authority.

QUOTE

Joe I think we share many of the same ideals and values.  While I am less optimistic than you in humanities abilities to achieve these ideals, I do feel that they are worthwhile objectives.  It's just very difficult for me to accept your system of metaphysics that legitimates your system of ethics.

It's not necessary to use my system. My system works very well for me and the others that use it, but there are 6 billion+ people in the world and many systems that produce the same results.
You just need to make it happen for you with what ever works for you. If you need to dive into the depths of despair within the perspectives of the ideals of humanity to find personal salvation then that is what you need to do.

Whatever works.

Objectivity in the ability to see growth in the choices you make will align you with the faith that is within you to support the essence of these ideals and values you would hope to see outside of yourself that you know exist within you.

QUOTE

 When one wants to return to innocense and the time is right it is the simplest thing in the world.  You are still looking at wrongs and believing in them. There is no innocense in that vision. These traumatized people that you see, do you see them as victims or creators?

I am more interested how they see themselves and try to learn from that. I worked with traumatized people from Tibet. Their religious framework is so strong that they do not perceive themselves as victims but as creators of their reality. This helps tremendously, but nevertheless, the trauma, the flashbacks, the trouble to sleep remain to a certain degree, differing from person to person.  As an atheistic religion buddhism supports your claim that one is the creator of what one experiences. But buddhism also acknowledges that pain is part of life. I know from others that torture victims from the former Yugoslavia or Ruanda, from cultures which do not support a more open approach to negativity, seem to suffer more.

It is good to know that we have wonderful brains and can think great thoughts. But we are also big mammals. Negative inprints get stored not only in the brain but also in the bodymind system, the muscles, the tissues, the organs and even the bones. And neurologists and neurosurgeons can tell by an MRI if a person underwent heavy traumata. They do change the brainstructure. This cleaning work takes time and trust and effort. It can not be done in a day.

QUOTE

Do you see yourself as a victim or a creator? Start with yourself.

For myself I can only say that I had such an amazing and magical life that I refrain from any dogma ;D. I dont know if I am creator. I don´t know if I dream the dance or if the dance dreams me. My life has become a big experiment. It is different every day and every day is a miracle and I like it like this.

I dont know if you are familiar with NLP and the work of Bandler and Grinder, but you sound like. I have worked with thought transforming techniques for the last ten years and I still find them very useful. But I dont use them as an only approach anymore. People are different. Some people are afraid to be happy and they need the full support to celebrate, to sing and to dance on the tables till dawn. But some people are afraid to be sad, afraid to show their pain and fear and anger. Negativity is only negative when it is repressed. When I am sad and I allow my tears to flow the sadness will be gone in two minutes.... Being aware that I have the choice to either tune into my happiness or allow my sadness gives me a much larger range of possibilities in my own life and in my connecting with others.

Sometimes transformation happens with changing thought and belief and sometimes transformation happens with relaxing and accepting what is.

It is very true what you write about children. I feel that Western cultures give children alot of energy when they behave bad, when they feel bad, when they cry and create trouble. In Eastern cultures children are often carried around the whole day, touched, talked to, played with. But they get totally ignored when they cry - unless they are sick of course. Very scary for Western mamas, but the effects are amazing. Smiling kids, no tantrums!
Interesting talking to you.
LOVE
PJ

QUOTE

I believe that in life we have two choices.  We can choose to live and struggle, or we can choose to give up and allow the viccitudes of nature to rule us.  Either way, we are going to die and it doesn't make a whole lot of difference if its at seven or seventy, in the long run.  People die all the time, and when their life is over, the values that they held really don't mean a damn thing.  The universe doesn't care if we butcher each other in war, or save whales, or expand our consciousness.  Its a cruel and indifferent tyrrant, red in tooth and claw.  The only things that are meaningful, in fact the only things that can be meaningful, are those objects which we consciously assign meaning to.  Meaning is our choice to make and, for me, this fact makes it all the more precious, it makes it mine.  It is true, that when we die the meaning we have created dies with us, and for some this burden is too much to bear.  I do not think that this desperate longing for purpose is something that cannot be satisfied without some ultimate point of reference, and I believe that local self-defined values are more meaningful than the pre-existing and absolute values that we often adopt by mere virtue of the fact that they are our own, and not imposed upon us by some external authority.

Timothy, yes, I agree. It has always been liberating for me to know that the universe actually does not give a damm what I do and why I do it. My life will vanish like my footsteps in the snow and after a while nobody will remember. But in the meantime I will have fun and pleasure and will entertain myself with art and animals, with philosophy, good food and wonderful friends. Just because ;D
LOVE
PJ

Yeah, just because.  :)

QUOTE

For myself I can only say that I had such an amazing and magical life that I refrain from any dogma . I dont know if I am creator. I don´t know if I dream the dance or if the dance dreams me. My life has become a big experiment. It is different every day and every day is a miracle and I like it like this.

Dogma is an interesting subject. With as many beliefs and interpretations around what the word means there are as many ways to use the word to make a point.
That I would call Dogmatic and also relative.
I am glad that you have such an approach to life.
To allow all feelings to move through the nervous system is the approach to bliss. It is the recognition that no feeling is anything other than a feeling, they come and they go like the waves at the beach, they come in, they fall, and then they recede. Life can be extremely simple if one just allows everything to come and go without attachments. Without the fear of repeating the negatives and the ideas to prevent the negatives, through projection and fear. It's like carrying a 100lb sack for many years and then putting it down. The lightness that the nervous system experiences by removing all stress in judgment is blissful joy.
Once one can truly look into the face of the creator as the creator nothing can take away the inner spirit.
Religious beliefs help those that need something to grasp onto in the lacking of experience.
It is unfortunate that so many can't be sure of life and its realities that they can't grasp an anchor to keep from being bounced on the waves of the ocean of life like a piece of wood.
For them it is a struggle to constantly remind themselves of the beliefs that have carried them thus far in the face of the things that are created to test their beliefs to see just how deep they (both themselves and the beliefs) go.
It is impossible to keep from crashing to the earth after jumping from a cliff if the idea that you can fly is just an idea.
Similarly we are afraid to live our lives in the fear of the unknown that may be the trauma or the inspiration to our lives.
 It's alway in the way we choose to look at it.
We as Humans or mammals will always limit ourselves to the mortality of the body and its experiences until we claim our divinity and immortality.
What science is able to measure with its tools cannot begin to master what the mind is capable of at its greatest levels. I am sure those that have been traumatized and not able to see beyond the trauma will fit a pattern that can be recognised as long as they limit themselves to the mortal body and the realities of the relative measures that help substaintiate its reality.
When the Self is integrated with the self there is no need to retain the stress.
It does take time in that face of beliefs that maintain the solid structure of being human and all that goes with it to step into the awareness and experience of the immortal self that never dies and cannot be harmed. How much time is always relevant to how much one clings to the past and its relative boundaries.
 Until then we will ever be attached to the physical world and allow little if any change at all.
It is a balance to integrate the immortal self into the realities of the mortal experience and let the soul live and experience freely without stress. Some tools work to get you part way others will complete the job where the other left off.
Some will take you all the way quicky if you are willing to surrender to the process.
As long as we are open to the things that come to us we will not hold to any one idea in the relative world as being the only truth.
Once one raises themselves in awareness to a higher truth not based in fear and limitation then one can experience something greater than mortality.
If one is open to go further, then an even greater experience may be manifest. There is no limit to the human condition other than those we self impose.
There is nothing concern may do in the face of free will other than maybe satisfy ones self that they hold compassion for the world and are connected in some way to it. Others will make whatever choice they may make..
There is a great freedom in allowing others to experience themselves fully without taking away the very tools that may be manifesting to show them just how magical their lives may be.

 I wouldn't change my past and the child abuse for what I experienced was the inspiration to rise beyond my experiences and beliefs. The results of my past drove me deep into looking for reason rather than retribution or pity. To cover up the truths of self created experiences and their potential does nothing. No worry or comforting gave me peace. Nothing worked for me until I was faced with the reality of my creativity and offered the chance to step into it.
I am understanding of my parents as a result of the inward reflection for I discovered their pain and abuse and was able to stop the chain and break it.
 My parents don't understand my love for them because they hold the memory of their behavior within and they judge it. I can't do anything for them to change their judgment no matter how much I tell them I love them and forgive them. My only gift to them is to live my life and allow them their choice to make peace with whatever methods they choose or not choose. They are not ready or willing to make any other choice. If they were they would ask either by saying something or indirectly implying the need to stop suffering with the guilt.
Their beliefs do not want to be altered yet.

The world is a complex idea and as long as there is no anchor we will try the best we can, to do the best we can do, by second guessing.

There are other ways.
To stand in ones own divinity; then and only then can we possibley hold another in their own light rather than help maintain their limitations.
Then we will know what another needs rather than second guess from a world that is a best guess.

It is a commendable idea to aid and support others in their suffering, but without clear vision what can we offer?

We heal the world by healing ourselves, then we can see the world in its true light.

Joe,

I would think that Dan's response would indicate that you are unaware that people are catching many of your projections of negativity.  If someone has changed it would have been on your first appearance.
You are breaking into other people's conversations and using a lot of bandwidth to present your one note song.
Please limit your expressions to something new or your own conversations.
Your version of god is just that, your version.
Humor helps and goes a long way.
Tell a trolling joke or two.

QUOTE

Joe, I would think that Dan's response would indicate that you are unaware that people are catching many of your projections of negativity.  If someone has changed it would have been on your first appearance. You are breaking into other people's conversations and using a lot of bandwidth to present your one note song. Please limit your expressions to something new or your own conversations. Your version of god is just that, your version. Humor helps and goes a long way. Tell a trolling joke or two.

I am very much aware of some peoples attachments to their own ideas and their rejection of anything that may challenge their belief systems and points of reference.
My appearance seems to bring about what no one wants to face.
Themselves.
Sorry I just can't take anyones stress seriously.
As far as butting in on anyones conversations goes.

This is a Forum, right?

 I would think that if you were having a private conversation you would limit it to e-mail or private conversation.

What you could do in this situation is raise your eyes and hands up to the sky and say why God why is this happening to me!

(That was a joke)

QUOTE

 I am very much aware of some peoples attachments to their own ideas and their rejection of anything that may challenge their belief systems and points of reference. My appearance seems to bring about what no one wants to face.

It is a popular strategy in forums to quickly interprete any opposition as  the hidden neurosis of the other. Something the other does not dare to face - attachment, fear, negativity, cowardice - becomes brilliantly clear in the shining presence of the savior, oh, sorry, writer...

The more I read the more trouble I have to follow your reflections. Once you say that "religious belief is something for those who need to grasp on something" and a few lines later an "immortal soul" pops up. But I am sure, your appearance brings up something dark and nasty in me I do not want to face....
LOVE
PJ

QUOTE

It is a popular strategy in forums to quickly interprete any opposition as  the hidden neurosis of the other. Something the other does not dare to face - attachment, fear, negativity, cowardice - becomes brilliantly clear in the shining presence of the savior, oh, sorry, writer... The more I read the more trouble I have to follow your reflections. Once you say that "religious belief is something for those who need to grasp on something" and a few lines later an "immortal soul" pops up. But I am sure, your appearance brings up something dark and nasty in me I do not want to face.... LOVE PJ

Say hallelujah! We all have each other so figured out don't we. Gotta love staying in control.

Actually the reference was not to you but I find it interesting that you took it as a reference that might apply to you.

C'est la Vie

Fish bite on shiny lures because they are attractive or they look like they are real.

Joe,

In gentle tones-you are not the center of any one else's universe but you own.
Ther are many intelligent people here, each with important information to share.  You are one of them.
If you want to turn them off, just tell them why you are right and they are wrong.  I understand your strong feelings and need to help others.
For instance, I happen to know that my outlook is the right one.  I also know that if I attempt to impose it on some one else, I will face rejection.  You are talking to sentient humans, each of us the center of our own universe.  Respect us in our struggle and we will continue to listen to you.  Indicate that we are the fools and you the only pipeline to God and suffer the consequences.
__________________________________________
Edit for Joe:  You are right this is not a private email conversation.  This is a forum with a moderator.
It is not a free for all where you can eat more than your share of the pie or upset the decorum.  If you want to further discuss the protocol, ask.

QUOTE

Joe, In gentle tones-you are not the center of any one else's universe but you own. Ther are many intelligent people here, each with important information to share.  You are one of them. If you want to turn them off, just tell them why you are right and they are wrong.  I understand your strong feelings and need to help others. For instance, I happen to know that my outlook is the right one.  I also know that if I attempt to impose it on some one else, I will face rejection.  You are talking to sentient humans, each of us the center of our own universe.  Respect us in our struggle and we will continue to listen to you.  Indicate that we are the fools and you the only pipeline to God and suffer the consequences. __________________________________________ Edit for Joe:  You are right this is not a private email conversation.  This is a forum with a moderator. It is not a free for all where you can eat more than your share of the pie or upset the decorum.  If you want to further discuss the protocol, ask.

Dear John,
[shadow=orange, glow width,#characters wide](Hey how about that a dear john letter.)[/shadow][glow=red,glow width,#characters wide](Joke)[/glow]

A couple of questions, and this pertains to all the posts here.
 I as a voice I am extremely flexible, I can say anything and it really doesn't matter. To me anyway.
Why then is it such a concern for everyone else?
Why is that one person can continue to speak the same idea and it becomes offensive?

I would like to know what it is that really bugs you?
Is it my unwavering ability to see the same things in all realities whether posted by me or someone else?

I totally agree with the reality that we create our own universe. It is the reflection of our selves.
Given that is reality then why do you not apply your interpretation of me being overbearing and telling you that you are wrong ( or anyone else for that matter ) to be your interpretation within your universe?

Do you see what I'm saying here?

I could say (gently) John, we all create our universes and so we will need to take any interpretation of what we are creating as what we are saying to ourselves and apply any judgment in feelings towards our own reactive behavior.

Within the realities of personal universes there needs to be a constant that ties us together. In other words if you are creating me then why would you push any idea that may come from me away?
Am I not your creation?
Would you create me to say anything less than relevant to your beliefs and ideas?
Did I fall from your grace as me being a lesser part of your creation.
 If you are the creator of me then who are you?
Would God be an appropriate word for you as a creator or is God to Religious or Dogmatic?
Does God have negative connotations to you or the people here as does immortal soul does for PJ? ( I notice you are being a voice for the others )

This board is a scientific tool as well as being the playground for human interaction. Anything that goes on out in the world can and seems to be displayed right here and can be witnessed as long as one can be objective. Yes?
All judgments in prejudice and emotion can be witnessed and claimed as ones own if there are any attachments to the things that are displayed here.
The simple truths are often the most difficult to accept.
Some of the dialogue gets pretty complex as each tries to dictate the essence of what whirls around in the thoughts and experiences of each person as they attempt to share with another.
Again if the universe is created by you are you really sharing with another, or bouncing opposing or similar thoughts and ideas off of the proverbial mirror?

I could easily be ignored by anyone here but I seem to be something that needs attention. Why?

Why am I not offended or disheartened by any reference to my posts being one way or another.
What makes us so different and what could possibly create disharmony between conflicting thought streams and ideas?

I think that if one was truthful with these types of questions one could handle any situation objectively with true compassion and praise rather than condemnation and projection.

In my own experiences I find anything that may disturb me a gift for my own growth to see deeper into any self limiting programs that may keep me from listening to what is being said, to listen to the voice that says it.
If I am the creator than I can listen to any voice and know I have created the voice and as I go deeper into that I hear a voice that is Mine but not of me that has lived only these 48 years but a voice with much more wisdom than I could have imagined in all the experinces that this body has amassed within that short time.
Amazing things, magical, mystical things that have depth and compassion to cut away limited realities and beliefs. A voice that continues to lead towards greater and greater understandings and realities.

I call that God and that becomes either offensive or limited depending on points of reference.
To me its just a name and it means nothing. To the others that would represent association and definition it is something and it needs to be appropriately categorized and judged.

Dan loves to stir the pot so he can challenge himself at all levels. This is what we all do until we can come to an understanding.
We then challenge that understanding and build on each understanding until we finish.(?)
Will we finish ever?
This question we will forever speculate or maybe come to agreement with that we will always be in process of something. Growth, expansion etc.
No experience can be greater or lesser than another. As long as we can experience we will either use the capacity that is within us to gather and bring together these experiences or divide and categorize, judge and keep the ones we like and push away the others or.......
We are infinite in our ability to create what ever, and all at the same time. It is happening around us.
Perspective will offer this, is it happening to us or are we responsible for the things we can interpret, and are we fully aware of that interpretation and how will we use that ability? Will we use it objectively or subjectively?

I gotta say John for as intelligent as everyone wants to be here there are some actions that can seemingly be misconstrued as mistakes or as process.
Some of Sciences greatest discoveries have been catagorized as accidental and haphazard. Who'd a thunk that mold would be the great bacteria killer that it has become in the discovery of penicillin? Accident?
Consciousness is easy enough if one puts some time into learning its structure.
Everything relative has structure. That structure has structure and structure that has structure has structure and so on and so on. We can continue to follow the process of dissection and will until we are exhausted or give up. Then we may find something else to follow.
I have found a peace that connects the links to all structure. IT is way too big to condense into any single idea and I find it within all ideas and structures.
This keeps me from being frustrated and anxious.
IT does not separate me from being human but it certainly does not limit me to being only that.

As the creator of your universe have you asked yourself what my presence here represents to you?
If it is only irritation and arrogance than what you choose to do with that would be a simple choice. Easy simple and direct. A choice you can make in each moment and either find peace in each of your choices or single choice and find stability behind the one or many choices that you make.
Do you carry your choices outward to secure the relevance of that choice or do they sit solid and anchored in your awareness within, unwavering and unshaken?

There are many appraoches to commitment. Each moment being a new moment commitment leaves lots of room for being open to change. Like this moment is this moment and the next will be the next so how can one ever commit to one idea or thought when the universe is always changing?

And yet here you are, when things around you even your body changes does what is inside you ever change? The drive that motivates you to move, to continue forth, to speak, to follow inspiration to be inspired and does that force or will that force ever die or cease to exist?
These questions inevitibly lead to answers or more questions and the words associated with the experiences of these things can create conflict when compared with possible experiences that can be compared to. If there is no comparisons then there is no conflict only ideas floating in the sea of the cosmos.

Choice is part of free will. To align with the driving force within us all or separate it into many parts.

For convienience and my personal preference I use the same words that have been handed down through the centuries and whether they have popular connotations is not important. I have discovered what the intent of these ideas are and they have direction in my speech.
Interpretation is part of free will and is always subjective. Where words and ideas are an irritant to one they are music to another.
So far there are, or have been, 5 or 6 people that have responded to my posts.
I think that there are more than the 6 people that have responded to me that are participating here in these forums. If that is a correct assumption then that would make the ones who have responded a minority in that my posts aren't relevant or important to the others that do not respond.
Its all relative as long as you want to find a reason for or against anything.
Anyway this really seems like a lot of Blah Blah Blah so I'm sure it will all go where it needs to go.

think of this as a position of 'other' people:

so long as you keep sticking your neck in front of me, you might get swiped at.  If you can't handle that, don't stick your neck in front of me

QUOTE

 I could easily be ignored by anyone here but I seem to be something that needs attention. Why?

Its human. We all need attention. You can take down that halo now, have a beer, relax and tell Mama all your worries.

QUOTE

Is it my unwavering ability to see the same things in all realities whether posted by me or someone else?

That must be it.
LOVE
Piratjenny  ;D ;D ;D

I've just read the help message in the first post on this board.


I can't help feeling that the insight shown therein was  justified!

To the poster of the first message I can confidently say that the third world war started at the same instant as the first world world war. We do not yet know who or what will win.

There will always be wars because because although we are all of the same race, we all started at different points and we all have different concepts of the winning line.

We all want to win.
We will have no chance, even if we all lived in the same country, with the same leader.

The only possible scenario for peace is when what we want is to see other people succeed!

We don't 'see' those who are worse off than us at the moment (I speak generally here), and we are too self centered (myself included).

joe,

I could answer your message line by line.  I won't because I think this would fall into what you want, getting attention.
I could ask you who was so invasive and demanding in your childhood that caused you to wrap this protective cloak of the impervious god arould you.  I won't because I am not your therapist. (if you needed one).
I could ask you how could I determine the difference between you and someone with a personality disorder of the narcissistic type?  I won't because it is not my job to ask that question.
I will give you my observations.  Every interaction with you is to show how you affect the other individual- a comparison of sorts.  You hold up like a jewel and inspect your interaction.  Each time you come out as the cool customer with all the answers.  Everyone else is caught up, tortured, hasn't found the way, a fool, confounded, etc. when touched by your presence.  I would interpret this as the ego in operation pretending it is god.  Every single iteration with you is a wrestle with the deep god or forces within.  Joe, that is you externalized.
I do not have to go very deep to tell you to stop sniping people and take your fair share of space, stop being an attention hog.  Now, If you think that was a deep wrestle with my soul because you have triggered some encounter never before met because of your presence instead of me just asking someone to have some considerations for others we shall indeed learn something.

Joe, I would like to add that there seems to be a misunderstanding about the primal cause of the opposition you seem to experience. I understand that you are a process of intense self discovery and spiritual exploration and I am sure that you could find an interested audience for what you have to say. Provided you develop the social skills and the communication skills to deliver your message. It is up to the thinker to deliver his thoughts in an interesting and intelligible fashion. It is also up to the thinker to understand that feedback is not judgement but an ongoing process of communication. Preachers are soooo passe.


Bill, about your input about war. Are you familiar with the work of an American  biologist/historian (?) called Pinker who developed a theory that humans have a genetic code for war? Just saw him on BBC and am trying to find out more.
LOVE
PJ