Why is it that most people do not want to talk about their impending deaths or the impending deaths of their loved ones? There are many ways to interpret death: as an illusion, as dreamless sleep, as rest, etc.... While these interpretations are interesting, what I would like to know is why so many of us seem to repress thoughts of our own deaths and those of our loved ones. Is it because it seems an exercise in futility to try to prevent or escape something that seems inevitable? Consider your loved ones: they may be healthy now, but there will be a time when death is upon them. How do you react to that? Do you regard it as inevitable, or do you feel like it's your responsibility to try to do something about it? Is regarding death as inevitable simply a way of making it easier to accept and deal with? If so, then isn't this dishonest and delusional? Or perhaps there are some that maintain that death itself is an illusion and does not really exist, that only the Self exists? Maybe so, but surely something dies, be it our ego, our body, our memories, our personality, or our sense of identity? Are these things not important enough to consider preserving? It's so easy to fool ourselves. For example, if we believe that death is inevitable, then it becomes easy to accept, and perhaps even to further believe that death is mere illusion. But what about other possibilities? What if death is more than mere illusion? What if you consider it your responsibility to save your loved ones from impending death? Has anyone else considered it their responsibility?

death was is the darkness that shadowed my early thoughts, of nothingness, of nowhere, a neccesity of life, of the something, the time between, dust and dust, the darkness of death shadows me no longer, for there is nothingness in life, also, existence itself binds us to eternity, though thought be seperated from body, the reality of their being cannot be washed away, acceptance of ones life is acceptance of death, i try to spend my time living, but slowly seem to be dying.

m

[quote]Why is it that most people do not want to talk about their impending deaths or the impending deaths of their loved ones? [/quote]

Have you asked them?

imho, most people probably think death is inevitable, so they don't think any more about it than they need to. AFter all, thinking about it too much is morbid and depressing. :'(



;D

Hi Shawn,

An interesting topic you've thought of here!

I think most people don't talk too much about death, because they have fear of it, or don't want to think about it because thay do not want to face it.
This applies to their own death and that of loved ones.

In a sense they fear facing up to reality. We could die at any time by accident or terrorism or health problems. But we don't allow it to pervade our minds.
This is hardly surprising when you realise the upheaval it causes to the lives of all those affected!
Just as we love to think about births we hate to think about deaths.

The very least that we should all do, is make sure our wishes are clearly laid out in a will!

I fear death no more than my birth was feared.
Have to go now. May add more later.
Best regards, Bill.

It is kind of strange that people are afraid of the inevitable. It seems that the fact that people are afraid of death causes them to not really understand life as they should.

(fear is blinding?)

I mean, everybody occupies their minds with worries of work or wealth, and they forget that their time in this existence is minute compared to the whole. Appreciation of natural phenomena is lost. True happiness is lost as people cram in pleasures on weekends to counteract the stresses of the work week.

It seems kind of sily to me that we spend so much time doing things that we do not really know what we are doing it for. Its all short term and causes more problems than good.

When the mass awakening of consciousness occurs I think that people will realize that the material world actually means nothing. Death happens regardless, so why not work towards true happiness for all (peace of mind) while we are here. Positive energy spreads through the simplest of mediums and is hindered only by the selfish desire.

[quote]What if death is more than mere illusion? What if you consider it your responsibility to save your loved ones from impending death? Has anyone else considered it their responsibility?
[/quote]

This depends on the situation, if someone is drowning I definately feel compelled to try and save them, but if they are sick and dying in the hospital say of old age I don't feel compelled to try and save them.

As far as death as mere illusion or not, I don't know - it does seem to be a natural part of this process we call life, so deciding I don't like that particular part of the bargin now that I'm out of the gate seems kinda silly.

I think peopel avoid death because they fear it. They fear pian, loss, suffering, sadness. Isnt' everyone sad when somebody dies? I think part of the fact nobody likes to talk abotu death is planted in our heads by society. I think that society planted early on in our minds that death is supposed to be sad and you're supposed to have a hard tiem dealign with it. Look at the media and they're reaction to death. It shows in tv shows everywhere. I think if everyone just accepted death as the inevitable then we would be a lot better off. You started a topic that i could talk abotu for months on. I'll make this short though. hehe. To add more to the society theory; people think you're supposed to be sad. Has anybody actually laughed at a funeral? I dont' knwo anybody that has. I think peopel also dont' talk about death because they knwo in teh end they can't change things and they want to forget abotu it. Dont' most people want to be in control of their lives? Dont' they want happiness? Isn't death the opposite of happiness? THE point of this long rambling of mine is that death is frightening to most people because its painful. It's painful because they couldnt' change it, they think they're supposed to be sad and quiet abotu it, and that you loved them adn now they're gone and you are frightened to live in the world without them.

There is a fear of death because people either falsely believe that it will end their existence, that they will suffer after death, that to die is to suffer, and/or that they will lose the attachments to things and people in their perceived world. That death will end their existence is to believe that the self has some sort of existence in the first place, which death seeks to end. That there will be suffering after death implies that the pain present in this world will still be able to be inflicted on those that have, as is the common perception, left this world. That to die is to suffer implies that suffering is something that cannot be avoided, and that people will lose attachments implies that they are attached to things that cause them to suffer, because they cause them to fear death.

i'm one of those one's who often thinks of death and daily feels the dark unpresence lurking just at his back. i notice the fragile balance of vital liquids who's flow in a matter of seconds could be released by any sharp object and a swift motion. i imagine the worst disgraceful ways of going out; messy and grotesque accidents, in the presence of family members, tortured by vindictive sadists... as well as the glamorous acts of self sacrifice - burning calmly in protest, heroic wartime daring, taking bullets for a loved one... but mostly i think about other people's conditions who i cannot help, other's pain in exiting this plane of existence that i have no softening impact upon. everyone i come into contact with has this tentative trajectory continuously altered with each decision and circumstance which i can see with greater clarity the more time i spend with them. it is through this dark lens that the brightest moments come into focus.

neep

very nice!

Death is hardly different from the dreamless sleep we slip into every night.

I agree with most points and I strongly agree with LoneStranger in that society has a major impact on an individual's point of view not only with death but with most common issues in general in my opinion.
But I would like to add a new point. The feeling the word inevitable carries -and this view might not be shared by some of the writers- is a slightly egocentric one. Do we fear what we cannot control? My opinion is that death should be viewed with a level of detachment common to that of a rather important activity instead of a -and forgive the unintended joke- life or death matter. This may seem a rather harsh way of looking at it, particularly when compared to the solemn manner in which death is usually thought of. My point is that death should be regarded and dealt with in a much mild tone. I think that thinking about death too seriously is somewhat redundant. I belive that death is The End and I intend to get myself a productive life, rather than dwell on the finality which is death : I did what I could but The End is the end.
I hope what I tried to say got through. Thank you everyone.
-Eduardo

Everyone must face death. Those who ignore it, know it's comming but, just want to live life to the fullest or whatever. I ,my ego, am terrified of death in my ignorance. I will not let death control my actions, so I find myself looking for ways to cope with it through texts like Bagavad-Gita, Tao Te Ching, The bible and so on. To escape death is to die. That is, the ego death. I aspire to kill myself. That's the only way that I have found makes sence to me. If when you die physically, your ego dies, than what the hell am I waiting for, I'l just kill myself now! No, I'l bet you carry your ego to the grave, just as you carry your ego to your dreams at night. I judge myself according to my dreams. There I can watch my ego in exageration, all my bad habbits eventually show up in my dreames to the extreme. I'm not saying that I know this for sure or anything but, I'l bet death is just like a dream, just like life is. I absolutely love dreams, I love them more that real life alot of the times. I think that when we wake from a dream into this "reallity" we are more confined by it because we think of it as outside of ourselves. Wheras in dreams or, lucid dreams, we realize that everything in this dreamworld is in our minds and thus in our control. If we could realize in "reallity" that the world we live in is just a projection of the mind, then we could perform maricles in this realm. And that's where faith comes in. Oh bingo! I'm just thinking of these things right now and having self realizations and whatnot! I hope I'm right on this. It makes perfect sense, doesn't it? When you begin to understand the nature of dreams you can stop running from your fears and turn them into love or whatever you want. Just like in this "reallity" that I am in right now. When I understand and experience the nature of the mind, I will no longer be caring about trivial events and pointless bickering. So when you die your path deosn't stop there it continues. And the nature of your mind at the time of death is your judge, hence you are your own judge. I don't mean to remenis. I'l stop now, but I just thought of that. I DON'T HAVE TO BE SAD ANYMORE HALELUJUA! I guess I've really knows that all along and just forgot. Funny how that works. HAH AH AHA HA HA HAHAHHAH!!! I have much to learn from myself.

Karl, have you ever read any Carlos Castaneda? Your comments align with a lot of his philosophy.

No I havn't but, I think I just might. Thanks for the info.

I suspect there may be another factor which would have been introduced way back when man lived in caves.
In those days we probably killed one another for food.
There came a time when life became cherished and given value.
By fear or common sense [or at the will of the very first good Social worker], it became good to sustain life and abhor death.

Almost by implication, and over a long period of time, thoughts of death would be almost criminal.

I do not state these thoughts as facts, but as something that has just occurred to me.

I think death is "true piece of mind" where your mind is finally completely at rest. So, as a living human being with a mind and ego "I" cannot begin to state what death will be like. The only time I know when I experience something like death or peice of mind, is the time in between the moment that I fall asleep and when I remember that I was dreaming. Physical death is the one thing in our life that we can be sure will happen to us. We should embrace the mystery and not try to overanalyze because we will never know until it happens. Even more, maybe we will never KNOW right?? Our brain will be dead so we won't THINK or KNOW. Death will not be comparable to anything we have or will experience because our experiences are mind-based. What we could talk about is actually what will be going through our minds the instant before we actually die. As far as saving someone from death, I am not religious so I don't feel the need to push my opinions about death to my loved ones. Our life experiences are different so there is no right way or wrong way to think about death. I guess if I were to give advice to someone about death I would say physical death is ineveitable. We don't know what happens after we die because no one has lived through death. Embrace the mystery and focus not so much about what death is but how you can attain mental death or piece of mind while you are living. I try everyday to live by example and help others find their own piece of mind. "As you think so shall you be" right?? Think good thoughts about death and so your last thinking moments before your brain dies will be peaceful. So how can you achieve "piece of mind" now?? What do you focus on in your life to put your mind at ease?

Death is patient and ever about us with gaping smiling maws; more of us should learn to smile back. Fear of death is rather silly, on many levels.

Fear death? No.

Despise death? Yes.

I view my own death as highly probable, but not inevitable.

Lucid, certainly you realize that deathist memetics is cultural programming?

I believe deathist memetics is based on a fundamental misunderstanding. Does it make sense to fear cessation of self when most do not differentiate between ego and self and do not appreciate, nor understand, the nature of self? Put another way, if one is ignorant of one's self and the nature of one's self, is one really in a position to evaluate the meaning of death within the context of one's remembered "personal life"? Death and the fear of death are good motivators for many, so I can't really say I despise it, at least not as much as the myopia of consciousness that besieges the human lot.

I welcome the day when humanity awakens and realizes that Death is no different from the boogeyman; it is a childish fantasy.

I agree with you, Lucid... my stock phrase is: from the universe you came, to the universe you will return, so why would there be any reason to worry? It's an attitude of faith, I suppose. A different way of looking at it, but the gist is the same.

It is a comforting mantra, but the comfort is really only skin deep. It's very well to wax intellectual about the ego, the true self, pre-birth, etc. and to conclude that the fear of death is groundless. But it's rare for intellectual concepts to ablate the fear of death in somone. It's okay to reason like that if one has really transcended the ego and experienced the deathless, but if one hasn't then it's empty (even if truthful) rhetoric.

If you sit for five minutes and sincerely and honestly engage with the fact that death is inevitable, that you will certainly die, that all you don't know is how soon you will die, and imagine the moments when you know you are right about to die, and imagine your very last moments of consciousness, I think you - just like me, and almost everyone around - will be scared sh*tless.

Just because death is inevitable does not mean we should bury our heads in the sand. It is a huge problem, whether due to our delusions or not, and it must be faced. By thinking about it, we slowly become more comfortable with it, and the moments of our death will be less utterly terrifying and more calm. Furthermore, reflecting sincerely on our own inevitable death (and the inevitable deaths of others) can lead us to change for the better the way we choose to live. So it's an important thing to reflect on...

Everything is impermanent - each moment, ourselves, each other, cities, planets, the entire universe. Eventually not even specks of dust will remain.

yes, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Certainly the conceptual understanding is different from, and inferior in many respects to, the intuitive understanding. If you aren't sure what type of understanding you have, place yourself in "deadly" situations and observe how you react. If your reaction is fear, then you have, at best, a conceptual understanding and lack the deeper intuitive understanding. Why I said more of us should learn to smile back at the gaping maws of death is to underscore that an intuitive understanding is what should be sought, and that we should expect of ourselves to be fearless in the face of death, and to learn to smile back. This is not skin deep; it is a profound truth of life.

It will be interesting to see how you feel when death is right around the corner~will you not be afraid? I know I am personally terrified by the fact that I am going to die, and I think that it is with good reason. I have found that there are safe guards built into life--pleasure, pain, hope, love, fear-- these things are the reason why we desire to preserve life. "Fear is a friend who's misunderstood" -John Mayer.

Religion has created some idea of an afterlife as a sort of copeing mechanism. Do any of them know what really happens after death? Do I know what happens after death? Hell no they don't, nor do I. I think we all fear what we do not understand, and those who say they don't, well I am just going to have to assume they are lieing to themselves.

I've been there, and in my youth, I experienced fear, but only in my youth.

Religion is often misunderstood. In youth, it is often rejected on intellectual grounds, and granted, religion is misunderstood perhaps most by its "followers", but it still has a certain kernel of truth.

I smile in the face of death all the time, because I know the fact that I can die is what makes me alive~Nothing can make you feel more alive than kissing death, but it doesn't mean that I am still not affraid of death.

Food for thought...

Does:



translate into:


??

For most, if not all, there is more suffering in life than there will be in dying. In death there is nothing, so nothing to fear. Even if you have a religious belief, you can manage your life to ensure that your death will be comfortable. So overall, no problem either way! Merry Christmas (pagan style, of course, as we prols say).

I know that life is precious and that any moment could be my last, but this doesn't compel me to romanticize the concept of death.

At our current juncture in human history, mortality is an unfortunate fact of life. This doesn't mean that death will always be a fact of life, nor does it mean that it ought to be a fact of life.

So, to be quite blunt - I don't like death and I particularly don't like the idea of my own death.

Death or more accurately, a finite lifespan, represents limitation.

Similarly, I am also rather unsatisfied with my paltry neuro-biological substrate. Again, it is a limitation.

Limits are to be exceeded.

I like what you say. But what would living with no death be like, in all its connotations? Might there be an even greater fear of death (accidental), or a greater obsession with living?

Since this thread has come down to opinions about death, here is mine: I don't mind death at all, if when it comes, it turns out my living was absolutely worthless. This is how I make sure and try my best every conscious moment to make my life worth the trouble.

The words of an unknown poet come to mind. I can't remember the exact lines, but they inspire me to put my thoughts about death this way: I think of death as like an horizon, which is nothing more than the limit of my vision.

With the help of countless others, present and past, including my parents, siblings and friends, who have gone before me, I am doing my best to develop my imagination, my ability to love and to have the courage to venture forth in joy. Following much of the process philosophy and theology of Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947), I look foreward to this venture, daily.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/whitehead/
http://www.ctr4process.org/relationality/viewtopic.php?t=261
http://www.ctr4process.org/relationality/v...372c098dae#1375

The only poet (John Keats) wrote:

But this is human life: the war, the deeds,
The disappointment, the anxiety,
Imagination's struggles, far and nigh,
All human; bearing in themselves this good,
That they are still the air, the subtle food,
To make us feel existence, and to shew
How quiet death is.

from Endymion, Book II, l.153-159

I've sought* and found my motivation through very different heuristic methods.


Edit: Grammatical correction

Downward to darkness, on extended wings.

For starters, living without the possibility of being finite might be theoretically impossible (a long conversation by itself). Living in a world where engineered negligible senescence is common place seems much more realistic to me, and is what I believe you were trying to get at.

It is certainly possible that in such a world there would be an increased level of *risk aversion*. If that is the case, then that is the prerogative of those individuals contributing to the trend. Personally, my Immortalist underpinnings do not make me any more risk averse than the average person, but I have encountered many individuals of my persuasion who are quite obsessed with health related issues. To each their own.

Also, as a side note, I use to be quite interested in bioethics but my pragmatic side has since pulled me away from that field. The collective influence of individual choice is what drives technological trends. Ethical considerations are often not as influencial as people would like to think. (This doesn't mean I do not have an air tight defense of my position, just that making such a defense is no longer high on my list of priorities).

Decay is inherent in all compounded things. There can be no becoming without unbecoming, and no unbecoming without becoming. Really they are the same. Death is not really an unfortunate reality. It is inevitable in the very profoundest sense, and without it, in the most concrete sense, there could be no life.

But regardless... this, on the usefulness of pondering death:

"...when we finally know we are dying, and all other sentient beings are dying with us, we start to have a burning, almost heartbreaking sense of the fragility and preciousness of each moment and each being, and from this can grow a deep, clear, limitless compassion for all beings."
- Sogyal Rinpoche

"A samurai once asked Zen Master Hakuin where he would go after he died. Hakuin answered 'How am I supposed to know?'
'How do you know? You're a Zen master!' exclaimed the samurai.
'Yes, but not a dead one,' Hakuin answered."

Ah Lao_Tzu, we would make fine circle dance partners, you and I.

Self limiting intelligence takes on forms much more unbecoming (pardon the pun) than the configurations present with eastern thought, so who am I to begrudge you? If you are content with this morality, and if being content is also a part of your morality, then there is nothing I could ever say or do to change the status quo. Nor would I want to.

And that's the reason why I am glad to be a-religious. Most religions, now it seems clear to me, entertain the notion that limiting the human spirits is the right thing to do. Wether they advocate a better after-life, or just to try to get along while we are alive, they preach comfort in content. Lao's Buddhist phylosophy, in my opinion, limits the range of possibilities otherwise found aplenty within the human experience. I, for one, refuse to sign-up to that kind of mental frame-work. Call me delusional, if you wish, but I believe that we are capable of much more than what seems apparent within the limits of our sensory experience. It may seem impossible right now in lue of our cognitive limitations; but then, maybe we're just looking from the wrong angle. I don't think we're finished making some noise around here as a centient beings, and as the highest expression of life withing the known universe. Should time permit, we'll be capable of affecting the course of history in such a formidable fashion as to leave an indelible mark when it's all said and done... Do I need a shrink?

Being a-religious or religious is still founded on expanding ones relationship with the physical world so that it includes what lies beyond the present experience of what is now experienced with the known to include the unknown.

The discipline of all philosphies that include Self restraint and non-grasping is that if you are so enamored with something or a particular way of thinking then you lose sight of what is around you for the intensity of your limited gaze.

The root of all religions is founded in the absolute pure potential of unbounded being.

The exclusion of one mans definition through judgment(separation), in your perceptions of reality, and the creation of another definition that seemingly surpasses what you see as limited, is limited in itself, because you separate still the One into many parts that will eventually have to come together in the experience of Being Whole.

aren't you doing the same thing?

The fires that burn away the slag, refining the gold inside are constantly burning. Conversation which points to the truth will exist as long as God exists.

To be in the world and not of it, is enlightenment. The reason all religions and their interpretations exist.

Are you referring to separating or Uniting?

Without death, what value would we give to reproduction? OK, diversity can come from reproduction (Darwinian type stuff). But if survival of the species is sorted (by no death) why bother to reproduce? If reproduction still occurred, and diversity occurred, it might cause serious clashes with the immortal. Unless, we envisaged the immortal as updating with technology. So again, what value reproduction? Or will memetics finally extinguish genetics?

ps, can the religious types give their opinion on the no dying issue. (Scientifically, we will approach extreme longevity very soon, so the notion of not dying is very credible.) Would they prefer that we should die? If not, then where would they stand with regard to their currently perceived afterlife? Would there be sufficient suicides to top up heaven?

Creativity, which is often projected into the idea of survival of the species is inherent within the matrix of life.
Death, is the outpicturing of resistence to change.

You got me on both counts! I'll have to organise a mail order for some nootropics. Unless you can elucidate for we mortals.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who are willing to take your money if you're looking to buy your immortality.

Have you ever considered writing content for a fortune cookie manufacturer? (j/k)

I mean, I've read some dense philosophizing over the years, so I'm fairly adept at separating the wheat from the shaft, but in your case I'm just not detecting any information flow coming from the posts you've made on this thread. Perhaps you should focus more on being communicative.