Moving the overspill from the other thread.

Response to Bubba Joe,

I've read my post and can find no contradictions. I suspect your viewpoint of an assumed God may make it appear that I contradict myself.
To put my belief another way:

I believe in 67fd76 which caused the creation of everything, including 67fd76.
I have the greatest respect for 67fd76; what has been created is marvellous, albeit with many flaws and weaknesses which I as a humble non- equivalent-causative force would have tried to avoid.  

If you choose to call your God 67fd76 then to you, I would be contradicting myself.
I do not have your Faith in your God.  
I do, however, have great respect for you, and your belief, and your concepts which I try to search for Absolute Truths.

I am confused because I have not 'arrived'.
I seek to avoid dead-ends and roundabouts and cul-de-sacs and hope to avoid a billion mile motorway if possible. I am prepared to go down that path rather than be on the wrong road.  

If 67fd76 is one and the same as your God:
He did not bless me with your vision / powers of comprehension / experience, OR
I was blessed but have been blinded by a flaw / education / stupidity.

I have wondered if I find the search more interesting than the Goal!
I don't think so, but obviously do not know!

I do hope that 'Knowledge of the Truth' isn't eternal bliss of some sort.
I would not appreciate bliss without pain.
What I would appreciate would be extra sensory perception - the one ingredient which would have made all teaching as we know it, all deception, all crime etc. impossible. No need for internets, writing, telephones, space vehicles, cars [except for physical contact].
But I digress......

Best regards, Bill.

Bubba Joe Said:

Don't get exited Laz and jump to any conclusions and then project where this is going. If you want to learn about enlightenment and actually live it you will need to stay objective and allow the perfection of what is being created rather than any projection from codependance.
One has foresight in creativity and the other projects from fear based past moments in personal stress.

 Quote:I know nothing with certainty.  


 
Tim this is the only thing that you said that has any truth in it.  The rest of the blah blah blah is irrelevant thinking. Even your position'
 Quote:I tend toward the nominological theory of truth, which is to say I don't really have an epistemology.  My metaphysics affirms only experience qua experience.  


 suggests you follow the theory of postulating anothers description because you have not attained the experience to describe your own or you haven't the conviction to state one that you believe will stand alone without the backing up of some well read philosopher.
Life is not so difficult and your inability to combine all of the big picture is only from the continuing to divide what you don't believe.

 Quote:This is simplistic and says nothing more than that the human mind divides reality, which is exists as an indivisible whole (totality), in order to understand it.  You have yet to show that real knowledge of the whole, or even part of the whole is possible, without this process of division and categorization and even if you could, which I find unlikely considering that many great thinkers before you have tried and failed, you would still have to show that this whole is God.  


 
I don't have to do anything. You will have to do the work, and as you described it takes the futile attempt to perpetuate division to finally drive the mind inward rather than outward into the diversity of ignorant choices. Ignorant meaning ignoring what is in front to see what is interpreted behind the viels of programs in popular thought and past stress related reactions to what appears in front of you.

 Quote:Don't worry about me Joe.  I am convinced that I have yet to find a good reason to believe in God.  If you think you can change my mind, I welcome the effort, but somehow I think you will revert to ad hominem arguments about my anger toward God and my 'blind' and 'narrow-minded' need for evidence.  Sorry Joe, but I think it's unethical to play fast and lose with the limits of science.  



The anger is only too apparent in your persuance of a changing science that will hopefully give you the ultimate answer from philosophical finger pointing of others experiences, which you don't believe anyway. My job is not to convince you or anyone, your perception is entirely too subjective.

 Quote:If 67fd76 is one and the same as your God:  
He did not bless me with your vision / powers of comprehension / experience, OR  
I was blessed but have been blinded by a flaw / education / stupidity.  



Bill this is the truth of what ego does. Ego is built on the foundation of innocense as it twists inner knowing and pulls it outward to erase the inside and replace it with the mixture of passed down ideas and beliefs of the majority.

God is God, the name is irrelevant. Whether the pink unicorn or a purple condom. Whatever the individual nervous system translates it into it is recognized not by prejudice in form and interpretation, but by universal truth.
If the day comes that one and all can accept the others forms without feeling threatened then the holy wars will stop and the soldiers of God or atheism will cease to exist.

One need only step back and listen from a more singular objective point that is connected to all rather than on the individual mountain tops that see only one side of the others mountain.

Quote:I do hope that 'Knowledge of the Truth' isn't eternal bliss of some sort.  
I would not appreciate bliss without pain.  
What I would appreciate would be extra sensory perception - the one ingredient which would have made all teaching as we know it, all deception, all crime etc. impossible. No need for internets, writing, telephones, space vehicles, cars [except for physical contact].  



The eternal Bliss would be the ability to appreciate and have it all without getting caught up in the drama of projecting more drama.
Following your dreams is not to digress but to acknowledge what is in your heart. Only fear creates a need to hide it or protect it and to judge what is around you before it comes to fruition because you are too busy worrying or focussing on what you don't have to realize the dream.

Tim said:

Bubba

Quote:I don't have to do anything. You will have to do the work, and as you described it takes the futile attempt to perpetuate division to finally drive the mind inward rather than outward into the diversity of ignorant choices.  



I see no reason to believe that 'inward knowledge' is knowledge at all.  The only thing that is right in front of me is experience, which by virtue of its very nature, is particular never universal.  Do you think there is something even more fundamental than experience, and if so, why should we conclude that it must be universal truth?

ID

Quote:Tim, your take on atheism is interesting and probably describes where I'm at, but I can see a small logical flaw - non-belief in A is not the same as belief in not-A, therefore some atheists may argue their position as not the negation of belief, but the belief in negation.  



Interesting observation ID.  In response I would ask you, is it logically possible to believe in not-God?  Such would be the negation of the attributes of God save existence, which if negated would plunge the belief into dissolution.  Not-God, from this perspective would be finite, contingent, imperfect, ignorant, impotent, etc.  What is interesting about this is that the negation of God results in the description of man.  Thus the opposite of theism is not atheism, but humanism, and since there is little reason to doubt the existence of man, belief in not-God is justified.

If the premise holds that the concepts of God and man are merely negations of the other, then one wonders: who created whom?

Steven said:

Timothy Schoonover!

You are a fool.

I am sorry to tell you this, but it is true.

You know this in your heart.

I think it best that you just go away.

I'm so confused now my voice is coming thru Laz..
Is it Laz or is it Bubba, or Steven or Tim
Who can ever know who can want to live this way anymore... AAAaaaaaaarrrrgghhh....................

yeah, I also got kinda confused reading Laz's reposts

 
 

QUOTE

I see no reason to believe that 'inward knowledge' is knowledge at all.  The only thing that is right in front of me is experience, which by virtue of its very nature, is particular never universal.  Do you think there is something even more fundamental than experience, and if so, why should we conclude that it must be universal truth?

You have obviously negated the forgotten experience of yourself and what you experienced before you experienced anything. (Say rubber baby buggy bumpers really fast)
Life begins in innocense and then gradually we pile programs that not only color experience but induce programmed experiences of truths.
I'll use your past statement that mankind has not existed since the beginning of time as a point of controversy rather than a statement of truth.

QUOTE

Man has not existed 'since the beginning of time,' nor was man created, nor was this planet.  A basic understanding evolutionary theory and cosmology lay waste to these fallacies.  Furthermore, it does not matter what mankind has traditionally thought about the world in which he exists, most 'traditional' knowledge has been shown to be wrong.

The "presumption" that this little blue planet is the center of  human creation and contains the only form of human life is at best an "ignorant presumption." Also the knowledge that is passed around about the beginning of humanity be it Darwinism or Spiritual begins a half a million years ago are in conflict with much older and controversial texts often blown off because someone just can't prove it, that describe the civilizations that populated this planet long before recorded history.
Science only thinks they know how old this planet is and what it contains or contained in civilized human history.
Science still can't explain or come to agreement on Easter Island, the egyptian pyramids, Atlantis, Lemuria, the Mayans, The Aztecs, the ruins of Stonehenge just to name a few or the people that created these places and thier civilizations.
Mankind has been active within creation since it began. This solar system is still in its infancy compared to the age of Humanity.
 Your statement that traditional knowledge has been shown to be wrong leaves an interesting question as to what motivates you in the ideas to think that what you accept is anything different than what has been passed around as traditional thought.
It also seems to lead back to the idea that you just want everyone else to fall into the I don't believe anything theory so that eveyone will join you in your position of frustration and anger towards any kind of organized religion or anything that sparks the connotations of its essence, since it (God) has failed you so.

I would like to humbly and sincerely apologize for insulting Timothy Schoonover in that post which Laz has quoted above.  I have apologized to Timothy privately, and I was sorry to see those words of mine posted here again, and to be reminded of how unkind and irresponsible it was of me to say such a thing in the first place.  Timothy Schoonover is no fool, and I regret saying those hurtful words very much.  

I am very sorry to have said that, and other things which I have said hereabouts.  Sometimes I lash out irresponsibly like that, and I regret it very much.

I swear, I can be such a little bitch sometimes!

Yowza!

I should just stick to the things I do best, pretty girls and poetry.

And maybe drink a little less, too.  

QUOTE

Science still can't explain or come to agreement on Easter Island, the egyptian pyramids, Atlantis, Lemuria, the Mayans, The Aztecs, the ruins of Stonehenge just to name a few or the people that created these places and thier civilizations

Easter Island
people got on a boat, landed at an island, created a civilization, overpopulated and ruined their environment, kaput!  :-[

the egyptian pyramids
people cut big rocks out of the ground, rolled big rocks on logs, piled big rocks up, viola!  ;D


Atlantis
do you mean you believe in the magical faerieland of Atlantis?  or that the historical basis for the myth remains undiscovered?   ???


Lemuria
new-age mumbo-jumbo.  Hippy!  


Mayans
an upstart civilization, got hit by combo of religious delusion and drought, disintegrated  :-[

The Aztecs
they ate your heart out!  but Coronado whooped they ass!  >:(


the ruins of Stonehenge
people got big rocks and constructed a religiously inspired structure  


so far, nothing too far out of the ordinary.  Just a lack of information on the specifics

8)

You're a funny guy Dan.

QUOTE

Mankind has been active within creation since it began. This solar system is still in its infancy compared to the age of Humanity.

I used to think that you were deluded.  Now I just think you're a crackhead.  This and rest, but especially this, is pure nonesense.  Get off the pipe Joe!

I had a thought once.
So you know something about smokin crack?

Support you claim about the age of humanity or be labeled an anthropomorphic crackhead!

I got a better Idea.
Prove me wrong.

QUOTE

I got a better Idea. Prove me wrong.

ahh yes, the famous reinforcement to delusion

and the poor lunatic was mumbling "pink unicorn is god!  What, you say I'm crazy?  Prove me wrong!"

looks like discursive thinking engaged in by those who experience dualistically through ego and outside world.    How limiting!   If you think you know the Self, you do not, since you're still mired in dualism, and since knowledge of the Self necessitates a unitive experience.  All the discursive reasoning in the world won't give you a unitive experience.   It comes to those who love the Self, and let go of their self.   Discipline and desire are necessary, but not sufficient, conditions for a unitive experience.   Think about it, and better yet, experience it.   Only then will discussion be meaningful, instead of empty.

Pinky

Don't think, only be.

QUOTE

Don't think, only be.

are you trying to tell yourself something, Joey?  ;)

Are you listening?

should I listen to you talk to yourself?  :P

Shawn

What do you think about Joe's claim regarding the age of humanity and that it is older than the solar system?  Since Shawn is sympathetic to Joe's point of view and is also a scientist, perhaps he could be more insightful than my bias allows me to be.

Do you think he's speaking metaphorically or literally and in what purpose would such an answer serve as a retort against the claim of human evolution?

Joe

Do you think doggies have a self in the same sense that humans do?  What about kitties?  Are they also part of your conception of the transcendental self?  What about plants?  What about rocks?

QUOTE

should I listen to you talk to yourself? Â

You mean you are not the ONE?

you're losing me, Joey  ???

You can't lose something you never had.

Joey, the nuthouse called; they want their medication back

QUOTE

What do you think about Joe's claim regarding the age of humanity and that it is older than the solar system?   Do you think he's speaking metaphorically or literally and in what purpose would such an answer serve as a retort against the claim of human evolution?

I think Joe is referring to the Self as it expresses itself or is realized through human consciousness, among other things.   Since the Self is presumably the ground of Being (and of course this assumption can be argued for and against), it is much older than the solar system, assuming that you're tied to notions of time as reflecting any sort of reality as opposed to being mere constructions of the mind that make knowledge possible in the first place (as Kant would say).

I think humans are too personal, too individualistic, for the most part, and thus, to characterize the universal mind, the ground of being, the Self, as humanity or human consciousness, is a mistake, to the extent that while human consciousness implies the Self, the converse it not necessarily true (i.e., the Self does not necessarily imply human consciousness).      "Human consciousness" is meant to be transcended, it must be transcended, over and beyond itself, again and again, .... ad infinitum perhaps, or at any rate, until our consciousness is identical to, and experienced as, the totality of Being.  

I don't think Joe's statements can serve as a retort against evolution to the extent that evolution is interpreted in a simple Darwinian sense as a materialistic process involving natural selection operating on randomly generated variants, resulting in a survival of the fittest.  Even if evolution is defined more broadly to include spiritual evolution or evolution of consciousness, I don't think Joe's statements are necessarily irreconcilable.

My statement about humans is that although they inhabit the earth and this solar system they are not native, or do not originate as a species from earth and as such their history precedes the history of earth and its solar system.
It had nothing to do with human consciousness, which is not separate from Consciousness which is not separate from total being, other than in varying stages of conscious awareness that ignores the totality of the Self or God.

QUOTE

Joey, the nuthouse called; they want their medication back

Damn, I hate it when they leave my messages with other people.

 I guess I'll jump on top of the dogpile. Feel free to continue our thoughtful conversation in my thread, as that really doesn't apply here.
 
 Uhh... are you trying to say that human kind did not originate on Earth in the material sense? In other words, we got here from somewhere else?

 This reminds me of earlier when you demanded someone to prove you wrong. This is why insane people are in asylums. They think people should prove them wrong instead of proving themselves right.

 So where's your evidence, smarty pants?

Where you haven't looked.

Maybe aliens planted us here....lol!!  What was I saying about a cult?

Maybe it wasn't aliens but humans that came here from someplace else. I guess that would make them aliens though.

I don't know what were you saying about a cult?

 Once again, Joe, your beliefs are based on maybes.  You're dodging my question. What's your evidence? Are you afraid to answer me?

 If I haven't looked for it, maybe you might explain it to me, so I can see from your perspective, why there is any evidence of the things you preach.

 Or is it just to impossible for us simple unenlightened humans to understand?

No hardly impossible, just the choice that one makes to turn away from it rather than accept it and experience it for yourself.

 You know, Joe, read my writing. I'm completely open to looking wherever you want me to for your evidence, though I get the feeling that

A) there either is no evidence and you're being spirituallistically cryptic (as usual),


wherever it is involves someone 'enlightening' me for a chunk of change, which is the only reason they supplied the enlightenment in the first place (AKA a cult),

or

C) you're going to tell me I have to experience something to know what you're talking about. See 'A' , as your experiences will never be solid evidence of such tripe.

Now answer the damn question! Please.

You are asking me to give you what I have and I can't do that. No one can give you what you have to obtain thru discipline and self effort.
You don't need to buy it from anyone but I would imagine if you were to apply yourself you would spend some time and energy maybe buying a few books and travelling around to listen to what others have to say on the subject.
The experience of God has to be sought out, otherwise the mind accepts what it knows and negates anything that might challenge the one who has nailed his foot to the floor and is spinning within the same circle of information and experience.
Find it within you and you will know. It is the same for everyone. NO ONE can give another the truth for it is an experience that no other can give.

 Well there are exceptions, it is possible for the conscious to elevate anothers consciousness to the level of vibration and sight but it won't last or stabilize without a stable foundation to build upon.
Outward sensory foundations are not built upon they are pasted on top of the Self in imaginary beliefs and projections.

By the way what was the question?

  The question was "Where is your evidence that people did not originate of this earth in this 'divine spark' of yours? I simply don't see how you pull the concept of an alien humanity out of celestial ignitions, old chum."

 But anyway, you answered the question with C. What all of your mumbo jumbo really means is: "Once you believe it, it will be the truth." I admit this is true. I also admit that this is why I try to stray from beliefs based on things that cannot be known and can only be assumed. Once I believe there is a God, then there is a God. Once I believe in Invisible Pink unicorns, there are IPU's. In your mind. But that means nothing and is just a sordid product of man's faith taking control of his mind. You are associating what you know with what you believe and that's the problem.

 And this "elevate another's consciousness to a level of vibration" thing is either likened to a televangelist healing a crippled man by holding his head and yelling, "Praise the Lord!", or some sort of sexual stimulus.

Joe's full of crap and can't change.  Poor Joe.  Oh well, his loss.  He's like one of those wild-eyed desert prophets that stand on a street corner with a sign that say something like Repent:  The Apocalypse Draweth Nigh, or Son of Jorel, Kneel Before Zod -- Snootchie Bootchies!!.  Everyone that sees him laughs until they realize he's serious, then they try not to make eye contact.  Don't talk to the crazy!  The fact is, people like Joe make it easy to to see why the rational life is better than the mystical life.  Just look at the crap that he is selling--Divine Sparks, pre-historic alien colonization, drug-induced meditatie states, infinite Self, falsity of science, personal transcendence, $300 discipleship programs, and who knows what else.  This is the nonesense that mysticism brings.  Gaze deeply into the crystal pyramid and find your eternal innocence.

Joe doesn't get it, and neve will.  Can't wait to see what he writes.  We should start rating his posts on a bullshit meter or something.  Most of the time he's off the charts.  Especially if you waste your time trying to convince him.

Experience does not always follow belief.
Expanding consciousness is real.
Delerium created from following a pink unicorn may be experienced as a feeling but is unlike expanding consciousness which breaks down barriers in time and manifest structure.
History documents the realities of manipulating solid forms, instant healing and even raising the dead. (of course any documentation is subject to approval and the ability to accept as is any tabloid, but personal experience always helps to align ones self with Truth)
Unlike the illusions of mind created realties which are experienced only in the mind, higher states of consciousness are not imaginary but reality if not experienced by just one person and are experienced by all.
I think you made a statement somewhere that the illusions of God and religions are an escape to find relief from the personal sufferings of humanity.
Some are, but in the expanding of awareness and consciousness, heaven and perfection are found here on earth. There is no place to go in the realization of perfection and Bliss. It is right here and it exists in every experience, in every-thing. Without any drugs by the way.

I'll give that a 4...rather disappointing.

 Tim, chill out, dude! If you don't accept his view on things, I don't understand why you're getting all bent out of shape over it. I appreciate that I'm having a constructive argument.... it's better than the "whatever"s I get from most people. It almost seems like your not opening up to what he's saying.

 I'm trying to, but apparently if I do that I have to commit to a belief, and I don't think it's worth it. I may be assuming, but I predict that even if I did I wouldn't get anything out of it. It seems to me like this conversation isn't even coming from Joe, it's reinforced by something else, influenced by external ideas.

 But that's just speculation, as are most of my ideas.

The only thing Joe responds to is open hostility.  It's nothing personal between us.  In fact, according to Joe, it can't be; personality is only a distortion.  Hehe.  You are absolutely right in that this involves external factors.  I have two competing hypothesis right now, either of which could be accurate.  What you see here is just strategy and experimentation.  Persuation is always a matter of politics and propaganda.  Joe knows this, although he won't admit to it.  Anyway, this is an old conversation.  You'll look back on my methods with approval soon enough.  Did you know that several members recently resigned in frustration when they could make no headway against Joe, nor be free of his hounding?

Shawn's rule is: do what you want.  That's what Joe does, and so that's what I do too.

 I agree that doing what you want is a good credo, but you've got to realize what feuls your wants, and whether they are productive or not.

 Hostility never opens anyone else's mind because anger is the response of a person who is not in control of himself. I think Laz might agree with me. That's why you guys got booted from my thread.

 And you sound downright religious. It's as if you're trying to convert Joe, which I can pretty much guarantee you won't happen. You're also not going to prove him wrong, since it comes down to his word against yours. Why don't you try to know your enemy instead of destroy him? I see no reason in resigning from a board simply because someone does not agree with you.

 Believe it or not, I appreciate that Joe isn't angry at me. I know people in my life much like him, that are very good friends of mine. Just because there is disagreement doesn't mean there should be hostility. Hate is only caused by an inability to understand.

IMO, anger is the response of a person who is under duress from whatever (like environment, for example).  Nobody can internally decide away environmental stress, but the naive (like kids) might think otherwise while they are in fact merely avoiding and thus internalizing stress.  Such internalization always shows up eventually, though, often causing 'mental problems' like depression or whatever.  

 Joey lives in a constant state of assault in the world, in such a way as to appear benign (his is a rather sneaky offense, honed over time by a 'lineage').  Joey does not care to communicate, Joey cares to pontificate (or 'fish' for men) because through it he feels alive.  If I were locked in a room with Joey and he didn't stop pontificating, I would probably have to whoop his ass (or at least try) just to shut him the hizzleschnizzle up.  Joey would have been doing what it took for him to feel good, and I would end up doing what it would take for me to feel good.  Such anger would not indicate a lack of control over my'self', but a lack of peace due to my unacceptable environment.  The angered act is in fact me, self, seeking to control my environment by force in order to eliminate the stressor! (namely, the man-fisher who had decided that I must be 'saved')

8)

 Haha... thats good.... just remember, Dan: no one's lockd in a room here, and Tim's not going to be able to kick his ass. All this insulting is just gonna end up pissing him off even more when Joe doesn't concede to defeat.
 
 I'm all for kicking someone's ass... but only if they started sh*t with me. Otherwise, forget it.

Guys, don't forget Joes obsessive behaviour is down to the fact that this is his bread and butter, it's his job.

He makes a living by teaching people about ascension and to teach he must have students. I don't think his remarks reflect him personally, its just a sales technique to bring in the punters.

I can't imagine he's has gotten many from this board, however he keeps trying!

I haven't got any but that is a deluded idea.
I (whether anyone believes it or not) have a lot of fun here.

Ag

I'm telling you, it's not personal.  I'm not angry.  What you observe is strategy, nothing more.  You may not think they are productive, but I promise you, if you stick around long enough, you will realize that this is the closest to productive that you can get with Joe.  Sublimation is a wonderful thing.

Hey that makes more than one that has told you you have some internal anger going on. Could be a sign [img]http://www.willrich.supanet.com/construction/4.gif[/img]