I don't know if anyone in here is an atheists but i feel like talking about them. They claim to basicilly believe in nothing, no god, no afterlife, no nothing. Well, as we go through are lives our minds learn to understand concepts and ideas through events and experiences we have. If someone tells us about something we know nothing about we use any sort of similiar events to come up with some idea of what they're talking about. Well, the human brain never comes across any sort of event that is close to absolute nothingness, like atheists believe. (All we have is the definition to the worlds 'absolute' and 'nothingness'.) So if we never come across anything like it how can we even imagine it more or less truely believe in it. Of couse, most of the time an atheist is just a person that has either gone through a bad experience with religion, hasn't researched religions  to find out with one fits them, or just don't care in this time of their life. So basicilly what i'm trying to get across is that isn't it just pointless to have the term atheist or is it one of those comfort things, where these people feel as if they have nothing to believe in but they still need a title to make themselves feel just a significant as the other people who do have something to believe in? well, anyway, what's you guys thoughts on them?

hey not being an asshole here but i tihnk atheists are like jut .. dumb i mean damnityou have to beilive in SOMETHINg or someone.. i menaits not lie you cant and i hate it ... i woul relaly hate for you to be an atheists and im saying this shit.. (oopz) but i thnk you gotta belive .. Roze :-*

wait, you didn't misunderstand me..thinking i was saying i was atheists? i'm not ....i'm a CrAzY PAGAN!! whoooooo...okay enough of that. Anyways, alot of my friends claim to be atheists and their too damn stubborn to listen to me.

characterizing atheists as dumb is dumb.  You can't pass judgment on people if you can't even understand their perspective.  To do so is foolish, assuming, and narrow-minded.  Many atheists experience religious feeling, but refuse to acknowledge the existence of 'god' since 'god' is a term with a lot of baggage.  You say 'god' to a christian, and chances are they're thinking of a hoary old man watching over you in the clouds, which is certainly not the conception of the divine and holy that many atheists subscribe to.  Many atheists probably experience more religious sentiment and have a more acute sense of the 'holy' and cosmic experiences than your average bible-thumper.   Bible-thumpers naively subscribe to the truths of the bible without experiencing anything cosmic or mystical, and think they can invoke the 'authority' of the bible to appear righteous and religious.  But most people, including atheists, see right thru such foolishness and naivety.

just my 2 cents.

Well, atheism... from the friends i talk to that are atheists its not a belief in a complete nothingness. Just that there isnt a higher power playing chess with our lifes. To them when they die thats it. nothing more nothing less. IN a sense that can be a complete nothingness but i think to them it is seaseing to be.

First off, i was atheist for some time. Second i agree with the bible-thumper thing. You should'nt jump in and be so defensive, not even know me. That just shows your weaknesses.

When I was an atheist it was simply a counter-reaction to my parent's stupid catholicism. And until I haven't learned other things like taoism or Castaneda I had no reason to assume something that would be just belief. Later I read books that were convincing, and I had experiences that showed me how it is.

I have written a post here: 'The Beginning of Time.' It pretty much proves that there's a higher consciousness, I don't think any person with honest thinking can ignore these arguments. And there certainly is more to say, it also depends on with whom you talk.

The major issue, however, is to open up and have experiences that transform you.

what's the url to your post 'The Beginning of Time'?

It's the same as this one, onyl a few rows below.

How the hell can you say atheists are dumb when you religouse people spend your life living by the rules of some omnipresent pillock who needs you more than you need him (if he even exists).

Dont call us dumb or stupid cos we do have beliefs I do believe in a type of afterlife and just because it isnt some stupid idea of heaven or hell. (a very human like belief.)

Dont be so closed minded :-*

Then tell me how the universe started to exist. If you can explain it without reference to a higher consciousness, go ahead.

but saying that the answer to how the universe was created is God is just replacing one question mark with another.   And besides, God is a term with so much baggage, why bother having recourse to it?  

My advice:  If you have questions, then at least try to be honest and attempt a real answer.   God is not an answer, but merely the veiled admission of ignorance, is it not?

You see i believe in a enery/force that created it all. And it is referred to in male and female parts (god and goddess) but none the less there are more than just one religion, lostcause. You should read alittle about them. They all don't just believe in a God like the christian one.

Oh yeah, and you,yourself are being closed minded by not looking at it from the POV of people who believe in some sort of god.

It´s an interesting topic, Ailin, but it strikes me that you say that you would like to talk about THEM, you mention what THESE PEOPLE claim to think and ask what we think about THEM.
If you approach the issue like this you are likely to keep it on a yes-no, right-wrong level. Because it´s THEM and YOU. What makes the issue so hot for YOU?
I wonda...
Love
Piratjenny

well nothing really. Just sort of how i type since my mind runs way faster than my typing, or writing for that matter, so i automaticlly shorten it up with words like that. so some of the time it comes off the wrong way. Atheists are no different than anyone else except for the fact of not finding what they are looking for, yet...weather it is subconcuiously or not.

Iain (Lostcause), if you want to be taken seriously, don't be offensive, even if others are. Describing God as a pillock is not clever.

Ailin, I think you may have atheism mixed up with nihilism, which is a belief in nothing at all. Atheist simply means someone who does not belive in a God. They may believe in an afterlife, even plan and purpose to reality, but not in a higher consciousness in charge. Satan, I think you are absolutely right about the first cause argument merely replacing one ? with another. Numinoso, I'd like you to explain how your creator/higher consciousness exists.

P.S
Irrational prejudice against atheists is just as bad as irrational prejudice against Christians. It's dangerous to judge people by a label.

I recommend to satan and seanf to read the post 'physics and consciousness' in the science section. It states clearly how modern physics start to understand that the underlying essence of the universe is consciousness.

I'm not replacing one ? with another, since I have a clear view how God started to exist. In my eyes, it's a satisfactory explanation. And I'm calling it God only because it's the shortest word. Has nothing to do with the Christian concept of it.

Seanf, I don't understand your question. What do you mean by explaining *how* my First Being exists? Like a description, like saying it's consciousness in time? Or like saying, well, just like that.

Ailin, I would be interested in your idea about the many Gods. I've also made the experience that the First Being later created other beings (or let them create themselves out of Him), so I would be curious if there's some parallels between your view and mine.

Blessed be,

Ailin, you say that atheists are not finding what they are looking for. I would rather say that they are not looking for what you have been finding..... ;D
Atheism per se is defined by a lack of drive to search for deeper meanings. In the atheists I have known, the question simply did not arise. You could say that they found enough meaning in art, literature, launching political campaigns...
I am not an atheist but I grew up in a partly atheistic invironment and that gave me the possibility to do freely my own explorations without primal religious brainwash. My grandpa was a radical and passionate atheist, chanting anti-church songs on this deathbed, my mother pretends to be one but starts to pray to St. Anthony as soon as she looses her creditcard.
I found both of them irritating. They found my spiritual quest very irritating.

It is still unconceivable for me how people can live happily without any spiritual framework, whatever form it may have. But the truth is that they can. Perfectly well.
Love, PJ

QUOTE

Atheism per se is defined by a lack of drive to search for deeper meanings.

Who defines Atheism like this, besides you?  Actually, Atheism is defined as the belief that God does not exist.   As I've said before, God has too many meanings for too many people, so why bother using such an ambiguous term to describe spiritual things?   Atheists are not anti-spiritual.  In fact, many are very spiritually inclined, but refuse to use such ambiguous terms like God to describe their spiritual/religious experiences or beliefs.   I mean, God is an old man in the clouds for many christians.  Blame it on the christians for making the meaning of God filthy and sordid.  Why would anyone in their right mind want to use this term, God, to describe their spiritual/religious feelings and beliefs after the christians and other simpletons have filthied it up so much?

The problem is that the God of the Christians is only the Creator of this universe. He himself was created by a higher creator, who in turn was created by the First One. Actually, this First One is the one I was talking about, and it's misleading to call him God, so I shouldn't do this anymore, although it spares me some effort in choosing words.

The thing is that to me the First One appeared as the Devil, but that would even be more misleading to you history-damaged folks, so I haven't even dared to talk about this by now. (The Devil was the deity of the Stone Age, for many many millenia, until the Christians came and malignified him. There were still some traces of that belief in the witches of the Middle Ages who were worshipping him. They were the remainders of the Old European Religion.)

The problem is that the Creator of this universe is a faulty being. He's much younger than the First One, and his mistakes and the mistakes of humanity have multiplied into such a monstrosity as Catholicism. (One of his faults is that he thought he had created the Devil, when in reality it was vice versa. And he's very commanding.)

You can call this a myth, if you want. At least that's what was revealed to me, but I don't expect that any of you can swallow it.

A last remark on atheism: It's illogical to say 'I believe there's no God'. That's being a believer of the same sort like religious folks, only with a minus sign. A philosophical honest position would be that of the agnostic: 'I don't know whether there's God or not, and I don't care.'

QUOTE

Who defines Atheism like this, besides you?

No idea. It does not matter. I am here to share myself, not to spread other people´s dogma. I don´t need backup from the Holy Father or The Lord of the Darkness

QUOTE

Atheists are not anti-spiritual.  In fact, many are very spiritually inclined, but refuse to use such ambiguous terms like God to describe their spiritual/religious experiences or beliefs. Â

Yes. There are even atheistic religions. Buddhism for instance. No figure in the Buddhist pantheon has god-like status; they are symbols for the vastness of space.

QUOTE

I mean, God is an old man in the clouds for many christians.  Blame it on the christians for making the meaning of God filthy and sordid.  Why would anyone in their right mind want to use this term, God, to describe their spiritual/religious feelings and beliefs after the christians and other simpletons have filthied it up so much?

I wonder if you are not overly concerned with christianity. Yes, christianity in its current form feeds on human stupidity and on the fear of freedom. But liberation and the awakening of intelligence is always an individual process.
Love
PJ

Just a bit of cross-referencing - anyone interested can look in the 'truths' topic for further views on God.

Sorry, you guys i did not state myself well enough. I agree with most of your thoughts on atheists but i didn't state myself well. Mostly because of thinking way too fast to type....so just the watered down verison comes out. That's why i perfer to talk instead of typing.

Well, ok so ur a Pagan? lol wats that?? im stupid and so ya know.. lol but i tihnk that being an aitheist is like stypid i mean damnit you kinda have to belive in SOMETHING.. ya know/ Rze

Oh, c´mon Roze, pleaszzze... ts ts ts. There are just two things people HAVE to do: To work and to die. Believing in god is entirely optional.


Ailin, I don´t know what kind of paganism you are practising but I wonder: Is it a more emotional or feeling-oriented way to the divine? Is "believing" and dogma not needed, because fire, water, earth, air can be experienced? I would like to know more. Thanks.
LOve
PJ

My version is that one of these two things is going to toilet. (There are folks who don't have to work.)

ok, ok, Numsi ;D
LOVE
PJ

This post is most interesting, but I suspect it suffering a bit due to categorisation of people.

I don't believe in God as portrayed in the Holy Bible. I refer to it so, because I know that for many people it sacrosanct and undeniable and a footdtone of their lives. That is very important to them.

I seek the Truth, and the Bible does not satisfy MY search.

Is there a category chosen by humans into which I fit?

Truthseeker?


Best regards and love to all, whatever their beliefs - we none of us know!

If that is all that you seek, the vague post you made last, then you fit into a lot of categories. A person who just wants to 'seek the truth', can fit into alot of the religions and in fact it is the intial dive that sets alot of people in the ways of religion. Just because you do not believe in the bible or it doesn't give you enough does not make you alone.

Buddhism's essentially a search for truth (in my view), although it's covered up in a lot of theistic stuff, and ideas from the areas it has come through. But it's centred on the search for enlightenment. Don't most religious people (obviously not all) claim to already have found truth?

P.S
As to a category (if you really need one), isn't a philosopher the same as a truthseeker?

Hi everyone. I'm probably going to sound like a fool here, because all of you seem to have good reasons for your views, whereas I just believe something and thats that. So I'll just say what I believe and let you lot comment on it.

For a while now I have found Christianity to be useless to me, because I don't agree with most of it's teachings, apart from the ones about being nice to people, but since most Christians don't seem to manage to do that most of the time, what chance do I have?
I also don't believe there is someone 'up there' controlling us and planning out our lives, because thats simply too wierd for me to believe, and I've also been corrupted by the Christian 'bearded man in snadals sitting on cloud' perception. Another problem I have with Christianity in particular is the amount of contradictions in the bible, and the way they just cover-up anything that goes wrong or anything else they said would happen but didn't by saying "Ah, yes but that was God's will".
I can just imagine the conversation:
Me: "What if I don't believe in God huh? What you gotta say to that?"
Strongly believeing Christian: "Then you'll burn in hell"
Me: "What if I don't believe in hell?"
Strongly believeing Christian: "Then you are evil and wrong and God will punish you for not believeing in him"
Me: "But I don't believe in him!! He doesn't exist!! (my opinion"
Strongly believeing Christian: "Bless you child, and go to hell"

A problem I have is a simple lack of faith in pretty much anything. If I were to take up any religion at some time in my life it would probably be Buddhism, due to the lack of worshipping anything but as I said, my lack of faith would probably hold me back from ever doing that.
However, the one belief I think could be remotely possible is, bizarrely enough, the idea in the film 'The Matrix', which I'm sure someone will explain to you if you don't know what this is. I think this because, although I have never seen anyone jumping without aid between 2 buildings with a large road in-between them, I think the whole idea has absolutely no arguments against it, no matter how outlandish the concept may sound.

Basically, I just live my live step by step, day by day and hope for the best.

Thanks for reading that, I know it was a bit of a rant and I know that my views are very one sided, but I would welcome any comments from you all, negative or positive.

Thanks,

Bert
------
Free your mind

I know what you mean, i was there. But at the same time there are losts of religions that aren't just; dont believe and go to hell, or someone up somewhere is controlling our lifes. In fact in most religions it is just acknowledging the fact of a, sort of, higher power...or something that keeps a balance. Of course there are some that don't have a higher power and just have their religion to whorship/acknowledge different forms of life and respect them.

Thanks for your response, and thanks for taking me seriously
I am interested to know what you believe, as you seem to know what you're talking about.

Bert
-------
Free your mind

well no all i was saying is if you live and die your belivin in death, your beliving in life, ytou have to belive in SOMETHINg doesnt really matter wat. and as for lke being atheist and tihnking god dont exist i presonally think ur wacked. sorry im like lol not TRYING to make people mad at me.. i just always say wat i tihnk and... maybe thas a bad tihng lol...... but yea.. i justg feel you have to belive in something.. ROze

RoZe, look.
Nobody has to believe in life or death. They are obvious. We live, we die. If one gets hit by a car he doesn´t have to believe in the car.

You are a Christian. When YOU die, you will go to heaven, and Lord Jesus will great you at the entrance. Then they give you a harp. People like me will go to hell. Because I don´t accept Jesus as my personal saviour and because I do not believe in sin and punishment. But you got it fixed. It´s a deal you have.

But maybe you don´t feel so 100% sure about that deal? There is a feeling in your posts that you have many open questions and that you are in doubt sometimes. What would happen if you would admit that you are not so sure yourself?
I wonder, LOve and support, as always, PJ

Nicely stated...

yea.. i've got doubts, you KNOw i've got doubts, all im saying is that if you get hit by a car, you oviously believe in it, buz if you didnt you would say no i dont believe in you so you didnt hit me. i dont care if you guys believe watever it is you believe in but im just saying what *I* believe in

it's not that atheists believe in abosultely nothing..i meant more on a god/ after live way. They would believe in getting hit by a car.....

If i got hit by a car i would damn well believe in it

;D ... that's all i got to say about that comment..

ok.. lol i didnt mean to make anyone all pissed or anything thas like the LAST thing i need lol but.. i mean ok maybe they dont belive in god but in everything else.. but then.. how did they get here?

Sweetheart, you don´t piss me off. And I think it is totally ok, when 15-year olds get more attention than 62-year olds... ;D ;D ;D

About your question: I simply don´t know how I got here. I have no idea. Maybe God created me, maybe some extraterrestrials keep me as a science project, maybe Darwin was right, maybe I always was here and there is no beginning and no end.
Life is alot about accepting that you don´t know. And the more you know the less answers you have. It´s a bizarre game...

What I wanted to say is that I had the feeling that you are pissed about yourself because you also don´t know.
LOve, take care
PJ

QUOTE

If i got hit by a car i would damn well believe in it

Haha ;D, RikaB, I don´t want to be picky, but if you get hit by a car, you don´t belive it, you know it. You also know that you have a right arm, a left leg and you know how old you are. You don´t have to believe in what you know.  

For me believing could be: I have an experience I cannot explain. Deep meditation, deep love, trancendence, being close to death, grande nature, true beauty, silence, graditude. I am looking for a model that gives lasting meaning to the experience: Buddha, Jesus, Shiva, Allah, Kali, the muses... Believing is not-knowing, but trusting and surrendering to the experience.

The trouble starts when believing turns into dogma. "If you don´t believe it we will burn you on stake". The beauty fades and religion becomes an instrument of fear.

I hope and know and believe that you will never be hit by a car.
LOVE
PJ  

LMAO Pj. I would know that   ;D

Blessed be

haha well goo sbcuz i DONT want to piss aNYONE off lol i dont need anyone else mad at me!! oh well tho.. and yea i guess ur right i am kidna pissed at myselef bcuz i dont know wat to tihnk and shit.. i mean i totalyl belive in god and there is no doubt about taht, but wat i doubt is why.. why would ithngs happen to me or other people, hy am i here, why do i have to live.. ya know? Oze

I dont know the answer to those questions and i probably never will.

AAAAAAAah, Well, there are many theories on how we got here. One theory that I absolutely am intreigued by, is the big bang theory. COme on, younow what I mean! Read a book on the beginging of the universe by all different theorists, and you will start to realize that earth was NOT created in 7 days!

Oh, I respect everyones opinions and beliefs, and wish everyone would do the same for mine. Once, I got told by a very religious catholic wonam, that I am going to burn in hell because I am a vegetarian! Yes, because i am a VEGETARIAN....pu-lease! I said, well, if I am giong to hel cause I dont want to eat animals, then it can't be such a bad place, and I will meet many others like me there, so it's ok with me!

Theres my 2 cents worth!

Love,
Dara

One more thing, my dear Grandmother tought me this, "live and let live". I know she didnt come up with the saying, but she would alwyas respect people no matter their beliefs in life. It is hard to understand how some people can say, "You are STUPID" for nothing more than not being like them.  Expand your minds, read books, watch educationals shows, LEARN LEARN LEARN, and you will see that it is ok, and even GOOD for there to be many different beliefs, perspectives and theories on not just religion, but all aspects of life.

So, now you have 4 cents form me, 2 form before, and 2 form now... ;D ;D ;D I cannot afford this conversation anymore

Love,
Dara

To Piratjenny's last comment on the last page. But do you not have to believe before you know? I think believing and knowing is like the age old question, 'which came first; the chicken or the egg?"

hmmm....good point, good point, maybe your right... ;D
but then again dont you have to form a sort of asumption or belief on things before you can know...because usually a person forms a belief of assumption before when they first start thinking about things. not on all things though just some.