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I still can't believe I thought you were serious!

Ah, the realization of misperception........

 Too bad you haven't grown accustomed to it yet.

 As an agnostic, I accepted it a long time ago.

So you are an agnostic and don't believe in God, I'm glad were finally clear on this. I'm glad you finally committed yourself to something.

By the way, I'm never wrong.

 You are correct. I'm an agnostic and I don't believe in God. Not believing in God is not the same as believing there is no God. It simply means you don't believe either.

 And you're right. You're never wrong... in your own mind, anyway.

 By the way, how's the proof of this God you're talkin about coming along?

Its always there whenever you are ready for it!

 If it depends on faith, it's not proof. It's the equivalent of astrology and homeopathy.

 Besides, if you can prove it, as I told you, you can always submit an application to the James Randi Educational Foundation and they will scientifically test what you preach, using whatever method you supply. Not only that, but they'll give you a million dollars if it works.

Joe: "Its always there whenever you are ready for it!"

Me: I take it that by this proof you mean the experience of God?

Absolutely!
If you don't know what it is you don't recognize it and if you aren't looking for it you'll miss it.
But if you are looking for it with your heart God reaches out to touch someone.[img]http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763/1644/3/app.infopia.com/img/image/fp/VPID/655652/t/1[/img]

  Wow...... isn't that so beautiful and inspirational?  :'(

  Blah. Of course if you're looking for it, you'll equate an experience or feeling with it. What do you expect? it's an example of your beliefs bettering your mind.

you kno, sometimes a tasty morsel falls on the kitchen floor, and lazy as i am, instead of pick it up sometimes ill call the dog and point at that morsel on the floor, and he looks at my hand to see if i have something good to eat to give him. then he looks out the window to see if i was trying to tell him his territory is being invaded, then he looks carefully at my hand again to see if i really do have a treat for him but he missed it the first time. im pointing right at a piece of steak on the floor but hes lookin at my hand.
so maybe its the same kinda thing with some of the people that asked me "where's God, veda?" and i point right at Him, but theyre lookin at my hand.
im not sayin theyre dumb or stupid, becuz its not about smartness or intelligence, its about a different way of thinking, a different way of looking, like one of those magic eye pictures, my guy over here says. you just have to focus your eyes right, otherwise you cant see the picture. but if you want to see the picture you have to keep looking, you have to keep trying, not give up after a few minutes and demand proof that anythings there, or spend time telling me there is no picture and that im crazy. you gotta keep trying and dont get discouraged becuz we all have to go at our own pace, its not a competition thang when it comes to growing and learning and maturing. you just gotta keep lookin, and eventually youll get it.
wow that was quite the ramble, i wonder if it made any sense to anybody?

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so maybe its the same kinda thing with some of the people that asked me "where's God, veda?" and i point right at Him, but theyre lookin at my hand.

I really wouldn't worry yourself about the others, like you said:

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you just gotta keep lookin, and eventually youll get it.

That's all the advice anyone needs, they'll get it in their own time and in their own way :0)

If you want an insite into why people have trouble believing, I would say that it's because in this world people are lied to all the time; by the media, by the polititcians, by their friends, and by strangers.

They learn to be paranoid to survive, trust has to be earnt. If you slip, you've lost it, and you'll have to work twice as hard to regain it.

seems like all these threads we got goin are related somehow.. seeing God, lookin past the ego, yoga discipline and the universal Self, desire and the road to enlightenment...
haha im tryin to quit lookin at the hand and see where that big ole finger is pointing  ???

Trouble is, as the English and Americans are two nations seperated by a common language; you and I are also.

I could draw many conclusions from what you are saying!

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wow that was quite the ramble, i wonder if it made any sense to anybody?

It was pure wisdom and no one could have said it better.

It never matters who is listening or is able to hear, only that it is known by you and that it was there for you to hear.

This is like a cryptic crossword puzzle  ;)

So what is it that you think I heard Joe? PM me if you like?

The message was to veda, but what is interesting is the fact that it made such an impression on you to respond.
Did you hear something?

I think my Ego just went through the roof  :-/
I'm going to have to take a break.

uh-oh! if i get props from bubba joe then everyone will think im wacky too! ;D

A very simple question:

If it only matters that you heard it and not that others will listen, why don't you quit your damn preaching?

What preaching?
I'm here doing the same thing you are doing. I'll quite when you do.

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Way too much thinking there Tim. Since the beginning of time man has beheld the wonder of creation and the instinct that there is a connection not only to themselves but the entire world around them. Nature in itself seems to have a sytem of self regeneration or preservation and the ability to recover even when man gets to thinking he can destroy it or rise above it in arrogance and superiority. These things in the world have led the mind to wonder about what creates and maintains such a dynamic presence in the world about them, and in themselves. Even in the darkness of negativity, man looks to a presence that has either been responsible or not responsible for the affects that cause mans suffering in the creation about him. Without cause and without the presence of books or religion the very idea of God is inherant in the heart and sought in the mind of man. Religions are formed from beliefs that man needs to do something to find favor and gain relief from suffering, as well as following of magnetic personalities that eminate the same presence that has drawn man to wonder. You and your absence of belief is in itself a belief. Where one stands on the soap box singing the praise of God, you stand on yours protesting the inner faith that resides in humanity only because you have lost yours. People like you are as common as those that follow others without their own experience, to believe what others tell them, the ones that fuel the hope that there is something alive within them and creation that inspires hope and faith. You and they are no different both want proof, but the ones that deny any presence are just plain angry at God for their own misery and need to find a reason that there is no God to end their suffering, no presence within nature and creation that is bigger than their anger and their suffering and self pity. This type of thinking is self defeating and weak. It's easy to say what you say that there is no proof that God exists outside of belief but it is easy to say there is no proof that God doesn't exist. It would all be relative to your point of view and your beliefs.  Beliefs cloud the innocence of what is inside of you and all around you. The more you think you know about the world and God the less you can know of God for you layer ideas that are limited to sensory perceptions and memories laced in stress and learned opinions. What I haven't heard from you is what you know rather than what you believe. You stay in the center of the field and play in niether reality because there is no commitment to your ideas and no direction as you wait and tiptoe around your own creation of your world, hoping to find someone to validate you and your perspective. You and Agnostic4now are both looking for an answer to your question of reality and a definition that will feel good to you. There's nothing to look for it is right in front of you and you continue to try and ignore it and give a rational name for the ignorance, all the while trying to look intelligent by spinning the wheels of the intellect to try and paint a picture of intelligence. The lines of division have always been constantly repainted by the likes of you. Few will ever erase the lines and draw the halves together to really see the totality of themselves in the world and realise God within themselves and as a result rise above beliefs and judgment. Continue to preach the teachings of others and the books they write or stand in your own right and state what you know or don't say anything at all if you can't say it comes from you. You sound like you are trying to convince yourself more than making any convincing statement that anyone might agree with as anything other than hypothetical and politically correct.

This is the second post of yours that I read in the thread I started. How exactly is this not preaching? Because from this post on out, that's what my thread was: you preaching.

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What preaching?

Hey Joe, I thought you didn't deny anyone their experiences? If Agno says he experienced you preaching, then you must have been  ;)

If agno has an experience and it is not your experience does it become your experience?

What is your point laz?

 Ahhh, the difference between me and Joe: I doubt your experiences as I please. Why should I accept you experienced something and aren't lying to me? Maybe I don't want to accept what everyone says they "experienced", and be the most gullible man on earth.

Why would anyone accept the truth of others without direct experience of it.
Then seeing as how experiences change like they do. Why put any faith or reality in any experience?
One needs look beyond the experience to find something more stabil and more real.

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If agno has an experience and it is not your experience does it become your experience?

You tell me? If we are all the One, maybe so.

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What is your point laz?

The point of Laz is to find out what death is, and trascend it. Anything else is secondary.

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Why would anyone accept the truth of others without direct experience of it.

Faith and trust in the purveyor of the so-called truth.

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Then seeing as how experiences change like they do. Why put any faith or reality in any experience?

They do? I'm sure I haven't exprienced that!

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One needs look beyond the experience to find something more stabil and more real.

I would like to know what is beyond? but be warned i may not trust anything you tell me

 I have no faith, nor do I have any trust.

 But if you're gonna tell me you don't either, Joe, you're simply lying. We've already been through this.

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You tell me? If we are all the One, maybe so.

This could lead to some interesting ideas. If  we are all one are we the sum of our experiences or were we one before they even happened? IF we are all one are we more than the experiences and do we witness the experiences or do the experiences influence us into what we are.
If we follow the latter then it would be easy to presuppose that we are the product of our parents belief, the school system and whatever information they pump into us and the collective beliefs of the influencing societal belief system, which really means we are not individuals at all but products of a system.
If we are all one then one what?

I could tell you but I would rather you experience it for yourself.

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The point of Laz is to find out what death is, and transcend it. Anything else is secondary.

You know this or have come to this conclusion?
If I told you death was an illusion could you transcend it without actually experiencing it, and if you have actually experienced it could you transcend it?
Truth is you have died and been reborn many times and here you are again trying to figure it out. Practice makes perfect but what are you practicing?
What you focus on, or what you put your attention on grows. Focus on life eternal and you may have something to play with, the other you have played with already and I can assure you, you already have it down.

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Faith and trust in the purveyor of the so-called truth.

Faith is the connection to the truth that cannot be broken. Trust is learning to connect it with the outer manifestation of it. What if the outer manifestation twists you in order for you to drop your illusions. How would you know if it was trustworthy?

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They do? I'm sure I haven't exprienced that!

Really? the world and how you experience it is the same now as when you were 3 or 5 or 7 or 10 or 12 or 18? And your experience of life around you is the same when you are falling in love or when you are breaking up with someone, or when you are sick and when you are happy? Interesting. Then you must be enlightened.

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I would like to know what is beyond? but be warned i may not trust anything you tell me

Thanks for the warning, I would imagine without the trust in something outside of yourself that it will be difficult to embrace anything as being of value or truth unless it finds the perfect niche. God only knows what that niche looks like and what you have built it to encompass. Nothing like predetermination to make the puzzle easier to put together.

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Faith is the connection to the truth that cannot be broken. Trust is learning to connect it with the outer manifestation of it.

 Faith has absolutely no connection to truth, other than that when you have faith in something, it is truth to you.

 All faith is is the belief in something that cannot be proven, which is why it is the enemy of skeptics everywhere. When you attach a belief to faith, you are simply thinking something is true that you can't prove is or isn't. Thus, you are pretending you know more than you do, when you most obviously don't.

 It is apparent to me that you are so infected by faith that it becomes obvious in your preachy attitude. Every other post rings of 'enlightened/holier than thou' mystic jargon that really has no meaning, as it is all based on things you cannot and do not know.

 If your 'experience' depends on faith, it is void, since faith taints all experiences. It is especially obvious that schizophrenia results from extreme faith and belief systems. A schizophrenic connects their 'truth' (derived from faith) to their experiences, and thus the insanity and mental disorder.

So you say, oh one who disbelieves in anything that is not known to you.

 That depends on what you call "disbelief".

 If it's the absence of belief, you're correct. If it's believing something doesn't exist, you're incorrect.

 Got that?  ;D

I got it, in your case you use both to describe the same thing when it is something that you know nothing about and want to make intangible or unreal.

 It has nothing to do with wants.

 When something is unfounded, it could be real or it could not. But I will disbelieve it (i.e. have no belief in its existence or nonexistence) since there is no natural evidence for it.

 Why should I believe in something if there is nothing to support its existence?

Indeed why should you believe in any possibility that may exist beyond the scope of normal human perception or current scientific ability. It would make more sense to make a claim like the patent office did when it said once that everything that can be thought of has been thought of and close the doors.
This is normal.

 You're applying your won meaning to what I'm saying. Look at it literally.

 Thought and belief are two seperate things. You can think about things that are unfounded, and this is the scientific way to make the supernatural natural, and prove the unknown.

 But to believe something that is unfounded is to say something exists when you rely on faith to do so. Thus, you have no evidence and aren't furthering the scientific process.

Scientific proof is just a conglomeration of accepted reasons using accepted methods held together by acceptible ideas.
The world is flat, the moon is made of cheeze, that kind of thing.
Science is a changing consesus of acceptible ideas.
There is no proof that what is proven today won't be disproven tommorrow, so what keeps anyone locked into believing it is stabil enough to keep following other than a trust or faith that it holds some kind of truth?

What separates the spiritual community and the scientifc community is the difference in their sciences, and their continuing effort to be right by making the other wrong.
By the continuing process to find what is not real the ability to really see what is real is overlooked.

This where spirituality and science in the mainstream loses it. Each overgeneralizes the other without combining both to truly see and experience the totality of life. Separate and categorize into the truth of fragmentation. It will always keep man separate from itself

 The first paragraph is very true. But what choice do we have? If we all accepted spirituality instead of science back when science began, there would be no real understanding of the way the world works, other than primitive ideas.

 You are right that these things are subject to change. But you see, things usually only change when science as a whole changes. Your examples of the flat earth and moon made of cheese were thought to be science until scentists established the scientific method, and either accepted these things could not be proven yet (the moon) or proved them wrong (the earth).

 There is no overgeneralization: Science is based on the natural world (i.e. what can be proven if you accept current scientific "truths"), and spirituality, which is based on the supernatural world (i.e. what is solely based on faith, and cannot be proven to be true or untrue).

The spiritual world and it's writen history and interpretation of it has been around since the beginning of Man. Science was developed to try and understand this process of recognition, and the natural laws that apply to mans recognition, to try and understand or destroy the inner knowing and realization that has been such an important part of mans history.
What you choose to follow is your choice, as is your choice to demean what you do not know or understand, as a scientific approach.

 Of course it's been around since the beginning. I'm sure the Neandrathals danced around fires and beat on things for the great Supreme Deity all the time.

 Science was not developed as a rise against spirituality- it was simply developed as a way of finding out more about the natural world. It isn't destroying the primitive urges for spirituality that you're talking about at all. It simply questions them instead of blindly following them. Don't you see that by questioning, you aren't ignoring; you're simply founding what you believe?

 These beliefs based on blind faith have only been an "important part of man's hisory" in that they have caused him to murder and exile his fellow man simply because he disagrees with his "beliefs". Where do you see anything beneficial coming from blind faith, other than ignorance sometimes causing bliss? Because I'd rather see the good things in a harsh reality than blindly fumble for constant happiness.

 I'm not demeaning anything I don't understand. I'm beginning to notice that your consistent plan for ignoring people's opinions is to assume that they are not only ignorant of your way of life, but are unable to see things for what they "are", which is really nothing more than what you have accepted the world is.

 I will continue to question everything, and believe and accept nothing, in order to realize the reality of this world scientifically. Only then can mankind see the true beauty of life. It probably won't happen in my lifetime, bt perhaps one day, man will find these answers.

You still can't accept that what you haven't experienced, but is by others is anything other than blind imagination.
This is where science or the abuse of it destroys the possibilty for the mundane collective agreement.

Ah! I also notice your uncanny ability to present an argument concerning my character, without supplying any evidence to support it.

But I will support evidence of yours; your last post supports what I just said about you.

I have said nothing of your character. There is no lack of equality in the human race. I have only made reference to what choices can be made and what you appear to hold as a landmark in making your choices.
So far you have said you trust nothing, and believe in nothing, but have a penchant for scientific process which if I am correct you do not believe in other than to follow the herd because it seems like the thing to do.

You seem to have taken it upon yourself to assume any judgments on my part as well as any you might carry about yourself.

MOOOO!

 Once again, you use conformity as an attack. Are you so noncomformist that you don't see what I'm doing? Just because I happen to be like a lot of people doesn't make it wrong, or make me 'going along with the crowd' for doing it. I assure you, this was my decision to choose this lifestyle and not everyone else in the world's.Get a grip and quit being a rebel for the sake of doing it.

I don't believe in the scientific process, but I feel it is the correct way to do things. I will question it just as I do everything else, and when I find problems with its structure, I will fix them.

I havn't read every post and maybe this has been said but in my opinion being an atheist isn't much different from being a "bible-thumper". Atheists still put blind faith into whatever it may be that they choose to believe or not to believe in. As crazy as it may seem, what if there really is a hoary old man sitting up in the clouds using us as nothing more than chess pieces? It may seem irrational but who is to say that it can't be true? And if you feel that you can say that, then prove it. I agree that belief in such a thing is a bit irrational, but until I'm offered proof of either the existence of a higher power or the absence of one, I can't reallly say where I stand. Each belief to me seems equally irrational as neither party knows for certain. It just looks like blind faith stumbling either one way or the other. (I dont think blind faith is the word im looking for here, but in the absence of a better one it'll have to do.) Perhaps I'm just young and foolish, but that's my opinion on the subject. I'd like to hear anything else people have to say to that...maybe give me a little more insight...