Joe,

Again and again misdirection and mischaracterization.
Just answer the questions.  They are simple enough.  No doublespeak as you are doing.
You say I am in pain. How do you know this?  I am not in any pain, and I am an expert on my condition since I live with me.  You are not qualified to speak for me and   for how I feel.  But you do it for me and everyone else.  Don't you see what a fool that you appear to us?  I do not laugh at your position only your inability to see your condition.  Your escape is into an imaginary position that you have fabricated.  If you were in touch with such a being, I am sure he would not give you such misleading directions to give a sales job on what a great being he might be.  I don't think he would require the inflation.  Then act in a completely different way.  The inconsistencies are too absurd.  Come from behind the facade or shut up.  
In lieu of any concrete change in your position, I shall go back to censoring your overly long and/or abrasive monotonous posts.

I answer your questions and you continue to ignore the answers. You have it all figured out. You're the expert.

Oh, eh...maybe it was Carl.
Have you any other symtoms?

QUOTE

Again and again misdirection and mischaracterization.

]I don't get the same experience or reaction.

QUOTE

Just answer the questions.  They are simple enough.  No doublespeak as you are doing. You say I am in pain. How do you know this?  I am not in any pain, and I am an expert on my condition since I live with me.

Often the one who habitually feels that what they experience is supposed to be normal is oblivious to what they could be feeling if the ideas were removed that cause the habitual patterns. Then and only then could someone experience something different. You may be a little to close to yourself to be objective.

QUOTE

 You are not qualified to speak for me and   for how I feel.  But you do it for me and everyone else.

You seem to be doing a pretty good job of speaking for Joe and how he feels and also what is wrong with him.

QUOTE

 Don't you see what a fool that you appear to us?  I do not laugh at your position only your inability to see your condition.

I guess everyone has a different reason to find something funny and also see the world in different ways. What is your point? You want everyone else to think you are special for finding fault and  humor in what you make real?

QUOTE

Your escape is into an imaginary position that you have fabricated.  If you were in touch with such a being, I am sure he would not give you such misleading directions to give a sales job on what a great being he might be.  I don't think he would require the inflation.  Then act in a completely different way.  The inconsistencies are too absurd.

I'm not clear in what being you are trying to describe here but I'll risk making an assumption. I'll assume you might be referring to God. In that respect I would like to know what the proper description regarding appearance and action would be in such a being.

QUOTE

Come from behind the facade or shut up.

Seems a rather harsh accusation regarding this open forum. Seems you might be obsessing over Joe and your personal feelings. You seem to have taken this forum about the belief or non beliefs of God and made it into a Forum about whether Joe is real. Perhaps you might stick to the topic of discussion here, or maybe the senior moderator should edit your posts.  

QUOTE

In lieu of any concrete change in your position, I shall go back to censoring your overly long and/or abrasive monotonous posts.

My brother used to use threats like that when he couldn't get his way. "If you don't stop I'm telling Dad!"
You need to grow up dude! Getting rid of Joe won't change what's inside of you that keeps obsessing over what you think is ridiculous. You need to find a way to relax. Maybe Joe could teach you some of that meditation stuff to help you from getting so stressed out.

Preacher Joe Carl,

In a way it is a piece of detective work to get information from people as experienced as you are in internuttery.  You are obviously a practiced Gadfly.
Taking your very obvious pent up anger out on a world that you will not show your true personality to.
It must have been a very hard life that made you teach yourself this insulating and yet irritating provocative way of dealing with the world.  You have alternate personalities on the net.  You play with people until you provoke them and then indicate it is their fault in the first place.  This is a family game you have learned and externalized.  There are clinical definitions for what you are practicing.  
So it was a compitition with your brother, this is the same competition you are playing out here?  He would tell your father?  And what would your father do to you?  I think if you would examine this relationship you might gain some valuable insight into your behavior.
I am through playing your sick game.  It is obvious you have practiced this in other places.  I do not wish to be an actor in your play.
Post with civility or don't post at all on the threads I moderate.

Wherever you go there you are.
I am quite capable of handling what comes to me and also taking responsibility for what I create.
You need to look in the mirror. You are obsessive.

Now, you are beginning to speak.
You said:
"Wherever you go there you are."
Yes I agree
And:
" I am quite capable of handling what comes to me and also taking responsibility for what I create. "

Yes, we observe that of you.  You need to learn that I am quite capable of handling what comes to me and taking responsibility for what I create.
I agree with both sides of this equation.  I think you only agree with your side.
And:
" You need to look in the mirror. You are obsessive. "

Yes, I am looking into a mirror, and I only have to turn up the energy to match yours.  I recognize us as brothers, but not the way you recognize me as your brother.

This is a completely resonant pair of statements.  Let us dialogue some more but with civility please remember.  I am not your student.

I am not your complexing brother nor your father.
Next question for you to comtemplate.  Did your brother raise you with your father's permission?

I am the oldest of 3 children, my brother played a part in my growing up but he did not raise me.

So do you have some psychological ideas about me John?

Joe,

As long as you are going to insert your presence here I would like to know more about you.
What did your father expect of you?
And if you like I will trade you information to balance these personal questions out.

To live my life that best I could.

Hi all,

I would like to add my own comments to this discussion.

It is good to see so much Love being shared between contributors to this board.
I believe the Love is a bit on the shy side whenever a contributor makes statements which they do not routinely qualify as being personal beliefs or established Knowledge.

People, therefore, feel that 'they' are being attacked rather than 'their belief or knowlege'.

I know what I believe about God.
I do not know about God.
I have no desire to make others believe what I believe ie., to preach.
I also believe that if I were to preach my beliefs, and succeeded in convincing everyone else that my beliefs were 'realistic', (ie., nearer the Truth, though still unproveable), this world would not be worth living in for the vast majority of people. This belief is much stronger than my beliefs about God!
I, therefore, hope that readers of this message, if realising my beliefs about God, will appreciate the fearful concept.
I was brought up as a Christian, and abide by those rules for living. My only deviations from the 'rules' are based on my beliefs or interpretation of God. They would preclude my attendance in Heaven, but not for sinful reasons.
I believe every individual is entitled to have their own beliefs and to state those beliefs.
I believe it is for each individual to seek their own comfortable belief, by reading any information available from any source. The difficulty is of course that we are not all equally able to process, filter, test and comprehend what we read.
Those less able to 'understand' the topic, rely on the group of Preachers they happen to listen to.
Unfortunately, this can lead to disaster as well as good.

And, I ask:, does anyone know if there is a word for people who do not believe in the Devil?

QUOTE

And, I ask:, does anyone know if there is a word for people who do not believe in the Devil?

Non-believers, enlightened, innocents.......
 Nice post..

Rhymer - I would consider belief in the Christian God absent the belief in the so-called Christian devil/satan merely liberal Christianity.  Interesting textual arguments can be made in either case, but the matter cetainly does not appear to have any popular consensus (although theologians tend to more homogenous respective to their particular denomination).

Check out this link for more info: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat4.htm


I would like to see an IP check on Carl/Mr. Rational/Joe, or see verbal confirmation with respect to their individuality.  If they are indeed unique, then I apologize for my suspicion.  If not, I wold like to know why Preacher Joe feels compelled to practice deciet.

QUOTE

I would like to see an IP check on Carl/Mr. Rational/Joe, or see verbal confirmation with respect to their individuality.  If they are indeed unique, then I apologize for my suspicion.  If not, I wold like to know why Preacher Joe feels compelled to practice deciet.

I support this idea. Let´s clarify this.
LOVE
PJ

No need to check I am the same person.
What you got a problem with that?
I am not however the other guy........

Joe,
Yes, there is a problem.  
The range of what you are doing is similar to a defiant little boy who is not getting his way.  Your in your eye approach to not caring about others indicates not an approach by a man of God but, one by someone that has an anger issue.  
Why do yiou wish to spam this site?  What are you proving?  No one is responding to your juvinile antics except with annoyance for the most part.  Is this not clear to you?  If it is not it certainly shows the level of your maturation.  Go confront the one that did this to you in the first place.  What do you gain here except a pale copy of some unfinished business from your past?  Your father I would imagine.

My problem is you are trying to bolster your arguments by creating sycophantic fictitious personas.  This is a form of lying and one must wonder how you can expect us to take you seriously with respect to your belief in self authenticity, when you as the main advocate are guilty of fabricating a plethora of false selves in order to advance your agenda.

Any argument in denial of this accusation is merely an attempt to justify the use of deception.  Do not be beguiled by his appeal to noble ends, or counter accusation that we are at fault for being able to be influenced by deception.  I'm sure he will try and say something to this effect, or even perhaps claim that deception isn't real.  Not that it matters, the only person remaining unconvinced is preacher joe and his band of merry men-talities.

At a scientific level of observation my presence seems to take those that want to make the reasons for their pain and suffering  as objects outside of themselves.
This mindset always approaches the idea of removing the symptoms of suffering rather than the origin or cause of the reocurring symptoms.
The world around us is created by us as a result of the attention we give our ideas.
Like dropping a single pebble into a pool creating a ripple effect that spreads outward,  the ideas that are held and dropped in the mind ripple outward. These thoughts create a ripple effect into creation itself to manifest and mirror what we believe is real.
Stresses about behavior, financial security, health, etc. are projected outward.
In my own study of the self I have been creating a field of energy to strengthen the stability of the presence within.
Your presupposition that God would not do some things is a separating of God from some things and applying Divine presence or nature where you see fit.
In your own studies of the nature of perception and behavior of the left and right hemispheres you are attempting to create something different, or to expand the vision to see more than what you do now.
I would hope that one day you might see beyond self created limitations of separation and judgment to see the perfection in all of creation everywhere regardless of appearances.
In my own experience it is not by changing the exterior but changing the way you look at things to see something different.
 Paradigms are created from beliefs and they are changing rapidly as the mind opens to new ideas in structure.
This I think you can agree with in the statements you have made around your own teaching and study.
There are many ways to expand the mind.
What I do may not be for everyone. I have no intention to sway anyone into doing it my way.
Your insistance in following this idea and vision of my attempt to preach or gather a following or even brain wash others is your choice as it is with the others that seem so affected by my presence.
This approach you take is the normal approach  of anyone who is involved with life.
Mostly thoughts and desires are interpreted as the approach to fulfillment. Fill this desire and you are fulfilled for the moment until that next desire urges you on to the next feeling of fulfillment.
What usually gets in the way of fulfillment is stress, or the ideas that create stress.
This is pure perception. Some people have certain phobias that others don't. Not all are effected by the same stresses.( One common stress is fear of death.)

So getting back to the stress part; depending on the objectivity of the minds ability to hold a reference point outside of personal stress realities determines just how involved one is in the actions around them.

Ever go to a movie and watch a person who is about to get killed and stand up in the middle of the theater and yell at the person on the screen "Look out!"
No I'm sure you don't, you probably are stable enough to stay objective from the point of view that it is just a movie and you are sitting in a theater watching the movie.
This doesn't keep you from enjoying it or hating it because you can get up and walk out any time you want to.
From the approach of consciousness the objectivity of the world comes from being aware that the minds thoughts are not controlled by the objects but the thought processes of choice and interpretation of the objects.
All objects are molecular in structure and depending on frequency and density they seem to affect the surrounding environment by our ability to interact and accept their reality.

From my perspective we are working together to achieve the same thing. I don't have the same investment in playing responsible moderator co-dependantly trying to protect personal feelings based on my own judgments and stress.
My objectivity comes from the awareness of immortal consciousness which I know is not affected or subject to physical limitations created in human interpretation and boundaries.

In this awareness I also know there are NO VICTIMS. All life is intricately intertwined in pure divine perfection. Those that are seemingly brought together in random co-operative events are not haphazard and random but consciously created by each participant.
So you see from my own reality and experience it is impossible for me to see any lesser point of view that I can irritate anyone, in the bigger picture.
This does not mean I intentionally go out and try to create mischief to prove my point, although you may think I take this position.
I find that all actions lead toward greater vision. Where each moment in a persons life make them what they are at the culmination of the subsequent events, I can see no place for negative points in the links that make the chain of life.
This is hard to realize from limited conscious points of reference and easy to see from more expanded states of awareness.

As a child I did childish things and have put away these things to become greater than that.

Sorry but I'm not good at remembering scripture word for word but like to remember the intent of some of it. I find that scripture contains a lot of wisdom. It is usually interpretation that falls short.

Anyway I have looked at this board as I do the rest of my life as opportunity rather than any lesser idea in stress and judgment.
As Dan so wisely put it all conversation can lead to critical thought but depending on the point of reference critical reference can be judgmental or objective only to the point of reference of the knower to the known and the process of knowing.

Who you are sets the tone to the rest of your interaction to your world, how you relate to it, how you unite with it.

I have great appreciation for the playing field and how it flows with the wisdom of  consciousness.
This is my perception, although it may not be agreeable to yours I cannot lessen mine to agree with anything less. I am content with my vision as I am content with yours.
I hope someday you may find the peace within to make a similar satement.

dammit Joey, there you go blowing more tomes that obscure your selfish motives in a puff of spiritualistic mumbojumbo.  The 'hope' for Synch at the end was a nice touch, though, especially in light of the fact that you will make no effort to avoid getting in his way  

and I was actually thinking you might be improving....  :'(


8)

I'm convinced that everything preacher joe posts is the product of a seeded argument generator.  Feed it some quotes, set some parameters, and let it go to work...wallah, instant meaningless retort.

Vis a Vis

NATURE'S LAW OF ATOMIC-TEMPORAL EQUIVALENCE: THE SOLUTION TO ALL FINANCIAL, SPIRITUAL AND ENERGY PROBLEMS
Just as there are five fingers on a human hand, there are five axioms of Euclid's Geometry. This is because of NATURE'S LAW OF ATOMIC-TEMPORAL EQUIVALENCE. the principle of ELECTRO-TIME JUSTICE is encoded in the works of Shakespeare. The Egyptians knew that the cycle of universal justice is the eternal principle behind all nature. Nature's law of atomic-temporal equivalence is the governing law of all creation and yet it is virtually unheard of. This is because it has been SUPPRESSED throughout history. ALL modern evils stem from the failure to recognise the principle of ELECTRO-TIME JUSTICE. Just as there are three entities in the Holy Trinity, there are three entities in the Holy Trinity. This is because of the FUNDAMENTAL principle of ELECTRO-TIME TOTALITY. the principle of ELECTRO-TIME JUSTICE is encoded in the decimal expansion of pi.
the Secret Masters don't want anyone to know the SECRET of Nature's law of atomic-temporal equivalence.

the COSMIC UNIVERSAL CONSTANT is 7428959. only from this value can one derive the TRUE STRUCTURE OF MATTER.

Achieve untold riches, cosmic power, immeasurable wealth and ultimate enlightenment now! Just follow these 5 easy steps. 1. Turn away from Satan's international money power. 2. Let the principle of ELECTRO-TIME JUSTICE be your guide. 3. Reject the evil and SINFUL doctrine of capitalism. 4. Turn away from the international media brainwashing cartel. 5. Memorise quantum wave physics

QUOTE

dammit Joey, there you go blowing more tomes that obscure your selfish motives in a puff of spiritualistic mumbojumbo.  The 'hope' for Synch at the end was a nice touch, though, especially in light of the fact that you will make no effort to avoid getting in his way   and I was actually thinking you might be improving....  :'( 8)

It's not my fault! :-*

QUOTE

It's not my fault!

exactly!  :P

Finally we agree.
Now if we can just shift the blame to something concrete that we all can recognise we can probably eliminate the cause collectively.

 FFfffwhhuuuuppp!!! ( holding my breath)
[img]http://http://www.willrich.supanet.com/realpeople/10.gif[/img][img]http://uk.geocities.com/ukmale40s/misc/w23misc104.gif[/img]

QUOTE

Finally we agree.

I think you missed the hidden message  ;)

QUOTE

Now if we can just shift the blame to something concrete that we all can recognise we can probably eliminate the cause collectively.

I think that is what has been happening for awhile  :P

8)

Timothy,
Don't you think it is a violation to expose the true secrets of the universe just in front of anyone?  Joe will find out he has a ka, ba, and even a ha to deal with.  Without an ego it will be very, very hard for him to follow your priceless revelations.  Five secrets in one post.  Joe, you keep giving us the same revelation in numerous posts.  Why can't you be generous like Tim?
Can't we get you to lift your needle?  Did you just learn this one secret in your hair shirt meditation?  Dump the ego and its thousand various ways of saying the same thing in a grandious manner.  It is the secret that shall free the world.  I say it over and over on Brain-Mind. com.  There see the world is saved.  Next, if only I could get the people at the Zetetica site to see this I could have an ego-less society to dominate.  Wait, if I did not have an ego how could I dominate anything?  I hope no one spots this little defect.  I'll work on that part later.
And then there is the upcoming Matrix convention.......
See you can change you parts just with an idea, if you believe it hard enough.  I hope Dorethy doesn't mind me borrowing some of her material.  Let's see, get rid of the ego, then the heart, then the mind, yeah.  Humans....what a concept.  

i have to admit, Timothy, your 'ELECTRO-TIME JUSTICE' gave me a good laugh.   I'm curious, is this a real seeded argument generator that you're using, or did you just pull that instant meaningless retort out of your as*?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I used the "crackpot" modification of the Dada Engine, a random essay generator.  You can supply your own vocabulary ruleset, but that requires coding.  You don't know how hard it was for me not to post 'redneck' and 'urban' variations.

Here is a link: http://herbert.the-little-red-haired-girl.org/en/dada/

The MetaNeoIsmist Manifesto:
1. truth is the greatest lie.
2. truth is the greatest lie.
3. those who believe that reality will save technology are idiots.
4. class is dead.
5. culture is nothing more than an obscene jest.
6. language is an illusion.
7. there is no free lunch.
8. reality is a myth.
9. we are all liars.
10. there is nothing more false than that which is true.
11. civilisation is nothing more than noise.
12. consciousness is dead; the cause of death is absurdity.
13. those who seek meaning in history are fools.
14. there is no escape.
15. sexuality is dead.
16. society is an illusion.

Disclaimer:

Except as otherwise expressly provided, whenever in this Act a section or other provision of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 151 et seq.) is
expressed in terms of section 3 of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 153), the reference shall be considered to be made to an amendment to, or repeal of, a section or other provision, as amended by this section.

I suppose when you consider that strangely enough more people die due to religion than any other issue, it's probably safer to say, "sod it, I'm an atheist" than be party or conform to something, that appears to cause so much missery. I think even atheist's believe in something, it may just be that it does not conform to any one belief, not that all atheist's would want it to and  besides. Who cares? I am not an atheist, but I do not stand in judgement. Imagine, when you pop your clogs you could be left with a lot of explaining. Ha ha ha

Finally do you have to belong to a religeous order or believe in God to be a good person? I don't think so.    

Belief is not required.
However experience can outweigh any belief that is not based on anything other than ideas that leave room for conflict.

 Beliefs are dangerous things to throw around. I find that the major problem with beliefs is that once you have them, all other ideas, opinions and beliefs are immediately thrown out of your mind. A typical conversation with a Christian and I usually involves me explaining why I don't think that there is a God, and the Christian saying something to the effect of "You're going to Hell, so I don't care what you think." I'm sorry to all the Christians I have talked to, but ignoring other people's thoughts is NOT "what Jesus would do."

Also, if anyone has read God's Debris by Scott Adams (who surprisingly also writes the comic strip Dilbert), the existence of God as supplied in the Bible is pretty much disproven through use of a simple conversation between two people. It pretty much goes like this:

Person1: Do you believe in God?
Person2: Yes.
Person1: Do you believe God is omniscient, as the Bible says?
Person2: Yes.
Person1: If God is omniscient, this means that God knows all things that man does not (such as nonexistence and the future). If God knows the future, he has no purpose in creating anything, since he knows the outcome, and his mere existence serves no purpose. Thus, omniscience cancels out existence. Once you know everything, there is no cause for existence.
Person2: Uhh....

I know, I know.... I'm going to Hell, so you don't care.  

No, Hell is when you have resolved to claim that this is as good as it gets.

GOD....!!! some people believe in him as an object, some as a belief, some as a perfect person and some just believe because others do. everyone has their own perspective in this aspect. atheists are basically either iconoclasts or some people who believed desperately in god but due to some inconvinience in life they blamed him(god). they expect god to give them everything they want. nobody is a born athiest. they become due to circumstances.
it has a long discussion but i would like to end it here and personally talk about this as this wont affect much...nice topic to discuss though.

 I'm sorry, but you're way out of line by saying "no one is a born atheist". The only thing that affects you believing in God in your youth are your parents. Ever seen Corrina, Corrina? The truth is, you don't have any beliefs from birth. Your beliefs that you start with are instilled from your parents until you are aware enough to find your own.
 
 I'm an atheist, because it's not really that hard to prove that he doesn't exist. It just seems to me like this is one of those holes in human logic that has to be filled. I'd believe that time has no beginning and no end before I believe that there is a supreme being that is in control of the universe. It has nothing to do with elitism or my ego. I simply look at it scientifically, and it appears as nonsense.
 
  And a footnote for Christians: Say what you want about God existing, but the Church will always be corrupt, regardless of whether he exists.

Hi Agnostic4now,

Your footnote is, in a sense correct, but I think the Church is trying to construct a body of people who can be looked up to, in the sense of contributions made to Society.
Since the Church is 'the people who support the Church', and people make mistakes for whatever reason, then the actions of the Church will contain mistakes.
That is not sufficient reason to condemn the Church!
It is the prime intention which is important, not performance. Obviously, if performance is weak, changes are needed. Nothing in this world is perfect, but anything which tries to improve situations should be supported by everyone.

These are obviously my own views, based on my own observations and experience.
I agree with you that no-one is born an atheist, for the simple reason that no child has any faith, except unassumed, unlimited, food, drink, affection, attention, replaced nappies, a mum, a dad, 15 grandma's etc.

Could you post your easy proof of Gods non-existence please. I don't think I've ever seen one.
Best regards Bill.

I could take the easy way and use the Bible against God, just like in Inherit The Wind, opr you can read my second to last post.

Jesus once said I will tear down this temple and rebuild it 3 days.
What he meant of course was the body, its impending crucifixion and the resurrection.
The teaching of Christ was never intended to be an outside spectator participation.
 The church was not the temple but the body.
Unfortunately there are still the purvayors of religions that try to make sacred what is outside of ones self. Holy Ground and those that care for the holy ground and the interpreters of outside worship.

Any true religion is not external but internal.
Those that are whole within themselves do not need support but are available to support others in their search for truth within.

Often the proof that people use to disbelieve is the use of false realities, distorted truths to make their own claims to something they really know nothing about.
It is easy to make these claims because there is always a way to look at and interpret the unknown, and make it real enough.
Belief comes from the 10% level of the mind, The thinking level that dwells on thoughts and surface experiences, not the deeper levels of the mind that are tapped into  stable foundations of the Self that do not change.
Atheism is a belief that is generated by lack of experience in anything other than doubt, and a reason to be right about having that as the only true experience.

QUOTE

characterizing atheists as dumb is dumb... You say 'god' to a christian, and chances are they're thinking of a hoary old man watching over you in the clouds, which is certainly not the conception of the divine and holy that many atheists subscribe to.  .

[ color=Blue][/color]
:-/
It is just as silly-minded to presuppose the faithful are superficially guided and refer to conventional images as their source of faith.

QUOTE

 Person1: If God is omniscient, this means that God knows all things that man does not (such as nonexistence and the future). If God knows the future, he has no purpose in creating anything, since he knows the outcome, and his mere existence serves no purpose. Thus, omniscience cancels out existence. Once you know everything, there is no cause for existence. Person2: Uhh.... I know, I know.... I'm going to Hell, so you don't care. Â

But what if we are God's past? Then wouldn't His present, our future, be a necessary vehicle for the continuation of His creation? Not only that, are we not, in this scenario, of some purpose to the higher plan--the big picture?

You're supposing that if you're omniscient, there's a reason to have a future. If an omniscient being is existant, its omniscience cancels out its will to live. If God was omniscient, there would be no reason to create anything, as (H)e already knows how it will progress and turn out, as (H)e knows everything that will happen.

Not to mention that omniscience implies you understand everything. How can a being understand nonbeing? No conscious being can make sense of unconsciousness.

If you are omniscient, there is also no plan- why would there be a plan if you already know what will happen?

The emphasis in the following quotes is my own:

QUOTE

You say 'god' to a christian, and chances are they're thinking of a hoary old man watching over you in the clouds

QUOTE

It is just as silly-minded to presuppose the faithful are superficially guided and refer to conventional images as their source of faith.

There is no presupposing in Satan's original statement since he/she qualified it with chances are

But I guess this is yet another example of the sophistry and misinformation employed by 'christians', who are a disgrace to Christ's teaching btw,  to advance their narrow-minded agenda!    

Hey Anderson, heard anything from Bodhisattva recently?  

To pick up on something that, Ahem! Joe said:

QUOTE

Atheism is a belief that is generated by lack of experience in anything other than doubt, and a reason to be right about having that as the only true experience.

No chance, True atheists are not uneducated doubters, I would say they are more like dedicated scientists.

It is perfectly possible for someone to experience wonderous things that, some attach labels to, to learn all they can about different religions, philosophies, and beliefs, and just not see any significance to it. This doesn't mean that their belief is to not believe anything, it's just that they haven't latched onto anything yet.

You cease to be an athiest when you actually start to believe in one the of the teachings, but remember it only takes one failure to disprove a theory, and you have to be right all of the time to keep the theory valid.

My girlfriend's step-dad was a Christian monk for 10 years, but when he had learnt all that was on offer, and started asking questions of his own, he soon found holes and was ostracized, so he gave up his faith!

QUOTE

This doesn't mean that their belief is to not believe anything, it's just that they haven't latched onto anything yet.

This is out of Merriam -Webster
Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
Date: 1571
: one who denies the existence of God

I was going to say a true scientist never makes a statement against the unknown if the possibility exists.

Atheists are hardly scientists, especially the self proclaimed men of knowledge who sarcastically expose their anger towards the frustration that is in the Faith that is lacking within themselves in their statements of "Show me proof and I'll believe!"
I haven't met a self proclaimed Atheist yet that has said I don't believe, and I don't not believe, they are usually frustrated and are heavily leaning towards the idea of "as long as there is no proof then I believe there is none, and I don't believe in God."

Denying the proof that is subtle is really a dodge to protest the anger that is within each person that can't get what they want.
Sure the Churches have twisted the meanings of the truth, but so have the parents that have taught their children from their own ignorance.
I find very few that actually make an attempt to seek out Self knowledge in an open fashion, as a true scientist, to not deny because there is a lack of proof, or experience.
Most have deep ingrained hatred for the system that perpetuates lies and deceit even though they accept it as the norm. Like children that throw a tantrum hoping that the parents will feel sorry for them they hope that God will do something to ease the suffering that humanity has chosen to perpetuate as the reality and practice of life.
The spirit that resides within is truly amazing, and no one wants to pay any attention to it.
When man falls what drives the man to go on if not faith that he can overcome? In sickness, in grief, in nature, everytime something happens, the inner strength of man to overcome the things they bitch about most, arises when they stop paying attention to the negativity they fondle (with so much reverence) long enough to allow the nature of God to arise within them to create something different.
This simple thing is so ignored for the other.
What you focus on grows, negativity, lack, disbelief, they are the idols of worship in humanity and they (humanity)  blame their suffering on the absence of God and the normality of their suffering.

There are a lot of people out there who have proclaimed the loss of Faith, and yet it is not their faith they have lost but the loss of desire to persue what they have not found because they were "lookin for love in all the wrong places."

What I hear most from anyone that runs into any description of faith and God is the personal experience of frustration and contempt for the lack of personal experience of it and the expression of everything they label as proof of the opposite.
The blind leading the blind, the dead burying the dead.

There are wonders in the creation of nature and everything that abides in it, from the magical to the most abusive. What keeps it going, what makes it real, why it's so different for so many, what keeps it moving forward, even the idea of evolution that anything can expand and evolve rather than stand still and stagnate.
What causes a child to grow and absorb languages so easily when the average adult has taken on the realism of difficulty that they can't learn to program the clock on a VCR.
People absorb the constant programs of beliefs and disbeliefs as they grow older ignoring the wonder of life that was lived as an innocent child, before the abuse of parental neglect and programs of dysfunctional behavior.

All it takes is the turning of the vision in a different direction to see it.
Most Atheists are self proclaimed prophets of the obvious negligence that exists in humanity but not of human nature. Any one can be master of the obvious and that can be of ignorance or of God. They are both as real to the mind as anything that is focussed on.
The one difference is the sight of God resides in all where as ignorance does not allow perception of the sight of God.

QUOTE

... True atheists are not uneducated doubters...

how can you tell who is a true atheist and who isnt?

hitler, stalin, mao and pol pot were all atheists, they said so and must have been becuz if they had any belief in the divine im sure they wouldnt have been such cold killers. betcha pat robertson is atheist too in his heart becuz if he believed in god and loved jesus he wouldnt be like that.
i dont kno, its all pretty confusing for me.

 I don't believe in God. I don't believe there isn't a God. Thus I am not an atheist. But there is another definition of atheism used by the Christians, and that is that if I don't believe in God, I am thus an atheist. Depends on who you ask.

After reading multitudes of Joe's jargon, I will scientifically show you the fallacies in his scientific logic.

To believe in something because you have no evidence that it doesn't exist is a fallacy of logic referred to as an "appeal to ignorance." Sound familiar, Joe? A few posts ago on a similar thread, you demanded us "prove you wrong." Ignorance about something says nothing about its existence or nonexistence. What you are ignoring is that there is no evidence to supply your claim.

You also often use an "appeal to faith" argument. The common example is the phrase, "If you have no faith, you cannot learn." Faith, by definition, relies on a belief that does not rest on logic or evidence. Faith depends on irrational thought and produces intransigence.

Any ways you can out-preach this one, O Divine Joey?

I have plenty of evidence you just can't see it but you can experience it for yourself when you are open to it.

By the way you still haven't proven anything.

 You're not getting it. Let me put it simpler, in a dialog taken from http://www.nobeliefs.com/q%26a.htm, and showing you both what you're saying and what I'm saying.

(Joe): You can't prove that God doesn't exist.

(Me): The claim to proof does not rest with me. On the contrary, proof must come from those who make the claim.

Moreover, the concept of god depends on what you mean by the word. If you define god as nature or the universe it only substitutes a religious word for a scientific one. The universe appears to us in physical ways and the sciences describe its properties. Religion based on superstition can never hope to understand nature. However, if by god, you mean a Spirit or Supreme Creator, as the way the Bible describes it, of course one cannot prove it without evidence. But one cannot prove something which does not exist. Proof only applies to things which exist in either matter-energy or from logical constructs (such as mathematics). If you believe in a God, then I demand the proof from you. So far, not a shred of evidence throughout the history of mankind has shown the existence of any god. Neither have we evidence for goblins, Loch Ness monsters, or alien spacecraft. If, on the other hand, we receive valid evidence of these stories, we can then determine the validity of their existence.

With the vast religious industry which garners billions of dollars from believers to support the idea of an invisible but all powerful being which cares for you, but only as long as you believe, and who has the power to create universes and can determine the future, I find it amazing that the result of trying to find this omnipotent god appears indistinguishable from nothing. I can just as well define god by proposing a meaning that agrees with its lack of evidence: that god equals nothing. So in effect, the religious and the atheist can have equality here. But since I have no need to define unmeasurable concepts, I do not fall into either category.

You can't prove anything, the only evidence you have is an experience, and an experience I can only get if I have faith. Which brings me to the next dialog:

 (Joe): If you don't have faith in God, you can never know the truth.

 (Me): Faith relies on the absence of evidence. How can it possibly determine the truth? The philosopher Daniel Dennett gave an excellent reply for which I've paraphrased:

If you want to reason about faith, and offer a reasoned defense of faith, I'm eager to play. I certainly grant the existence of the phenomenon of faith; I want to see a reasoned ground for taking faith seriously as a way of establishing useful facts. But don't expect me to go along with your defence of faith as a path to truth if at any point you appeal to the very dispensation you supposedly try to justify (circular reasoning). Before you appeal to faith when reason has you backed into a corner, think about whether you really want to abandon reason when reason sits on your side.

 It's very simple. You're not giving me a reasoned ground for taking this faith seriously.

So far you have used a great amount of words and ideas spewed forth by other people to back up your lack of experience and you determination ot project what I or anyone else says God is.
As I have said before religions have allowed only through ignorance to determine what even the Bible says about God.
God is.
God is spiritual, scientific, natural and un-natural.
Mankind in its split awareness where it sees from the perspective of limited senses sees only part of the universe.
Just like a Dog hears what a human can't hear at higher frequencies most humans have squashed the higher senses to shut out the subtle aspects of creation that they are perfectly capable of experiencing.
When one does experience and another doesn't the first conclusion is that it is imaginary or unreal and more importantly unsubstantiated.
What history has documented in the amazing feats of man has been hailed as fantasy and myth by the majority that cannot accept and has not the experience.
What is behind everything that is created and has and always will be is the essence of all things and it has an intelligence that is connected to it.
This very thing is inside us, inside you and only levels of experience and self worth limit it.
Just as a woman can lift a car off of a child, or a person can be hypnotized to access the deeper control of the mind to accept surgery without bleeding or pain, so are there greater capabilities within waiting to be experienced. These things are the tip of the iceberg that is the creation/manifestation of the intelligence that resides within the Universe.
Only ignorance clings to semantics, literal meanings determined by popularity rather than the deeper essence that is.
God the all omnipotent being is the collective of every human ever born and to be born, all of nature, every animal and every moving cell and atom in the universe perceived and unperceived.
Ignorance loves to separate into ideals that require right and wrong and God is both, ignorance loves to separate into good and bad and God is both.
God is limitless, more than the limitless imagination which is only the link between the relative and the unexplained potential waiting to be drawn forth.
You have shown only a lack of experience and a collection of others experience of no experience.
We stand at opposite ends of the room and I have experienced both sides where you have only experienced one with the belief that the other isn't real.
You have so much to gain and you choose to ignore it.

 Booga Booga Booga! The Almighty All Powerful All Seeing and All Universal God Will Always Be All!! He is Omnipotent, Omniscient, And Omnirradescant! Only the Ones Chosen by Him are witness to his awesomeness!

 So, scientifically speaking, Witch Doctor and Almighty Grand Dragon, do you have any evidence of any of this? Because usually to prove something, you need evidence. You know, the Scientific Method? To prove things? This breaking through the mental barrier of the All-Enlightened Master of Knowledge?

 Tell you what, you can win a million dollars if you can prove it scientifically! I'm serious! http://www.randi.org will supply you with a million dollars if you can prove it or anything supernatural, paranormal or occult!

 Hmmmm..... no one has won yet. How strange....

i apologize for my comment above.
of course i didnt mean that atheism was responsible for genocide. i was just thinking that it really does seem logical and reasonable after looking at the natural world and everything to conclude theres no God, like the conclusion of a logical and reasonable person. except those guyz (hitler mao stalin pol pot) dont really seem like they were reasonable people to me. plus i was thinking eugenics was supposedly all logical and scientific but i dont buy it.
but maybe that has nothing to do with anything, so i apologize for that, and im sorry if it was rude or offensive becuz i didnt mean it to be.

v3, thanx for posting. I'm serious. Your last post greatly confused me. I ended up taking down that post I submitted because I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic. I thought you were, so I removed it, thinking I was the wrong one.

Anyway, I had said that the wars that have ravaged Israel for centuries prove that it's not atheists that are the war mongers; more often it's the believers. Hitler was a known Christian... in his book Mein Kampf, he said he was eradicating Jews for the Lord. I was confused and it was more my fault than yours.

I still can't believe I thought you were serious! The sad part is that there are a lot of people that really bear those opinions.