Full Version: Enlightenment and Money: A Bad Mix?
How well do enlightenment and money mix? For example, should a truly enlightened individual require money as an incentive to help enlighten others, or should a truly enlightened individual desire and willingly help others without regard for money? I would tend towards the latter, but am curious what others think. As another example, should an enlightened person's insistence on money for helping to enlighten others serve as a warning-sign that perhaps the guise of enlightenment is merely meant to fool you into handing over your money? Wouldn't a truly enlightened individual give of his (or her) self regardless of money?
Did Jesus or Buddha ever demand payment from their disciples and followers for their services?
[quote]Did Jesus or Buddha ever demand payment from their disciples and followers for their services? [/quote]
They demanded everything that they have be given away or dropped to become a disciple.
To leave their families behind, their jobs and their possesions.
One would be disciple came to Jesus saying "I would follow you but I have some family matters to attend to." Jesus said, "let the dead bury the dead, come with me now and live."
There was never any compromise to allow for the slipping and sliding around attachments.
As for the rest, the intellectual understandings of the Truths in reality were imparted, not the techniques and practices followed by personal instruction.
Those that were not ready were given what they could understand based on their level of commitment and allowed to keep which was of most importance. Their world, their families and their attachments and an understanding to the best of their abilities on how to live with their attachments intact.
They demanded everything that they have be given away or dropped to become a disciple.
To leave their families behind, their jobs and their possesions.
One would be disciple came to Jesus saying "I would follow you but I have some family matters to attend to." Jesus said, "let the dead bury the dead, come with me now and live."
There was never any compromise to allow for the slipping and sliding around attachments.
As for the rest, the intellectual understandings of the Truths in reality were imparted, not the techniques and practices followed by personal instruction.
Those that were not ready were given what they could understand based on their level of commitment and allowed to keep which was of most importance. Their world, their families and their attachments and an understanding to the best of their abilities on how to live with their attachments intact.
[quote author=Joesus link=board=6;threadid=2824;start=0#msg14236 date=1064785591]
They demanded everything that they have be given away or dropped to become a disciple.
To leave their families behind, their jobs and their possesions.
[/quote]
hi Joe,
while I've read the bible several times, my knowledge right now doesn't seem up to par. Where does it say, in the bible or elsewhere, what you said above in the quote?
They demanded everything that they have be given away or dropped to become a disciple.
To leave their families behind, their jobs and their possesions.
[/quote]
hi Joe,
while I've read the bible several times, my knowledge right now doesn't seem up to par. Where does it say, in the bible or elsewhere, what you said above in the quote?
The bible doesn't mention Buddha, but look here In Matthew 8:18-8:22
The cost of following Jesus
18: When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake.
19: Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go."
20: Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
(Note: here he refers to mans illusions of security. A house, possessions a family none of these things are permanent and when a man dies so do his attachments. Then what does man have? The kindom of heaven must be realized and it does not follow the worship of false idols of the Ego.)
21: Another disciple said to him, "Lord first let me go and bury my father."
22: But Jesus told him,"Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Luke 9:59-9:62
59: He said to another man,"Follow me." but the man replied,"Lord first let me go bury my father."
60: Jesus said to him," Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go proclaim the kingdom of God."
(Note: here as in Matthew Jesus is saying that a man who is bound by the illusions of the Ego is dead. An enlightened man lives not as a disciple of God but as One with God. He is stressing the fact that there is no value in the world of attachments and illusions of the ego and any attention on the illusion is fruitless.)
61: Still another man said,"I will follow you Lord; but first let me go back and say good bye to my family."
62: Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.
(Note: Jesus is saying for anyone who looks towards God, to turn back towards the world of illusions and attachments cannot achieve the goal.
For the field to yield its harvest a man must stay one pointed and focus on the goal.
The cost of following Jesus
18: When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake.
19: Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go."
20: Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
(Note: here he refers to mans illusions of security. A house, possessions a family none of these things are permanent and when a man dies so do his attachments. Then what does man have? The kindom of heaven must be realized and it does not follow the worship of false idols of the Ego.)
21: Another disciple said to him, "Lord first let me go and bury my father."
22: But Jesus told him,"Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Luke 9:59-9:62
59: He said to another man,"Follow me." but the man replied,"Lord first let me go bury my father."
60: Jesus said to him," Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go proclaim the kingdom of God."
(Note: here as in Matthew Jesus is saying that a man who is bound by the illusions of the Ego is dead. An enlightened man lives not as a disciple of God but as One with God. He is stressing the fact that there is no value in the world of attachments and illusions of the ego and any attention on the illusion is fruitless.)
61: Still another man said,"I will follow you Lord; but first let me go back and say good bye to my family."
62: Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.
(Note: Jesus is saying for anyone who looks towards God, to turn back towards the world of illusions and attachments cannot achieve the goal.
For the field to yield its harvest a man must stay one pointed and focus on the goal.
thank you, Joe, for your thoughtful reply. I've never placed much authority on the bible per se, but nonetheless, you've clarified something that had, admittedly and unfortunately, troubled me a bit. That is, for a long time, I've been wary and suspicious of base motives (i.e., greed, selfishness) underlying seemingly altruistic and benign actions and gestures. I don't think this is a case of me projecting, but rather is the result of 'horror stories' that I've read from others involving such cases (i.e., cases in which individuals were taken advantage of under false pretensions and promises of enlightenment), and is also the result of a general appreciation of the wide spectrum of Man's motives. But your post has done a good job at dispelling this universal doubt of mine which prompted me to start this thread over the 'bad mix of enlighenment and money' in the first place.
Illusions are created from the foundations of fear.
What we focus on grows, and eventually manifests into reality.
Certain truths are masked by the illusions we create but the underlying truths cannot be destroyed.
Jesus was ruthless in his compassion to lead humanity out of the hole that was dug with the illusions of fear and separation.
He demanded strict attention on The absolute One in order to break the chains of illusion.
There is another passage in which he speaks about the eye of the needle.
A place in the desert where a man would have to remove everything that was carried on the back of a camel, the camel would be forced onto its knees to crawl through a rock hole to pass through and so the parable was intednde to convey the message that in order to reach the kingdom of heaven all baggage would have to be removed as the soul can only fit through the doorway that has no attachments and nothing other than pure innocent awareness
What we focus on grows, and eventually manifests into reality.
Certain truths are masked by the illusions we create but the underlying truths cannot be destroyed.
Jesus was ruthless in his compassion to lead humanity out of the hole that was dug with the illusions of fear and separation.
He demanded strict attention on The absolute One in order to break the chains of illusion.
There is another passage in which he speaks about the eye of the needle.
A place in the desert where a man would have to remove everything that was carried on the back of a camel, the camel would be forced onto its knees to crawl through a rock hole to pass through and so the parable was intednde to convey the message that in order to reach the kingdom of heaven all baggage would have to be removed as the soul can only fit through the doorway that has no attachments and nothing other than pure innocent awareness
I'm interested Shawn, you didn't grow up in church did you? I know it's off topic, but what kind of worldview were you raised in?
And to answer you're first question. Yes, I think reifying the Enlightenment idea or process into a commodity for production and consumption is completely antithetical to the spirit of the movement if you'll allow me to call it that. Yet history seems to indicate that institutionalizing systems of belief or thinking is a very effective means of growth and perpetution. But an institution require funding in order to remain operative thus the dilemma. On one had you can remain pure but unorganized and on the other hand you can become 'tainted' but effective. This predicament has caused endless fragmentation among the Christian church since the time of Paul. I think there is a very real pressure for any form of human association to drift toward institutionalization.
And to answer you're first question. Yes, I think reifying the Enlightenment idea or process into a commodity for production and consumption is completely antithetical to the spirit of the movement if you'll allow me to call it that. Yet history seems to indicate that institutionalizing systems of belief or thinking is a very effective means of growth and perpetution. But an institution require funding in order to remain operative thus the dilemma. On one had you can remain pure but unorganized and on the other hand you can become 'tainted' but effective. This predicament has caused endless fragmentation among the Christian church since the time of Paul. I think there is a very real pressure for any form of human association to drift toward institutionalization.
[quote] I think there is a very real pressure for any form of human association to drift toward institutionalization.[/quote]
This, is from my experience the result of man putting God outside of himself.
Not knowing how to seek God or the Kingdom of God, man seeks Guidance from those that are professed as knowledgeable.
Mainstream religions have schools that teach the history of the particular faith, interpretation of the Bible etc. Unfortunately if one is not consciously united with God as God it becomes a passing down of word from one to another.
We all know what happens in this case. You get 50 people and tell a story to one and pass it down to another and the story gets filtered through the different nervous systems and it is no longer the same story in the end.
Still man looks for the guidance to find it within themselves. No one does it on their own, by this I mean without the external references that are abundant to lead one to experience.
Either one reads a pile of books and comes to their own conclusions and by the sheer will to know stumbles into the awareness, or they seek someone who has attained the knowledge and experience so they do not have to stumble around themselves.
The Passage in Matthew and Luke is an analogy of life and experience. To put something that you worship down in order to realize something of greater value and experience.
It may seem unfortunate, the trixters that sell religion without the experience to stand behind what they preach.
But in the evolution of Self awareness if it sometimes helps one see what God is not when they are inclined to "look for love in all the wrong places." Kind of like giving a kid a pack of cigarettes when they are determined to smoke anyway so they can get a real taste of what they are doing. They either pick up the habit or realize that it will make them sick.
I don't see it as a value for value thing as much as what is real and what there is to value by what you get out of it. What you focus on grows and if your values are on the things that can be taken away then there can never be anything stable in those values.
This, is from my experience the result of man putting God outside of himself.
Not knowing how to seek God or the Kingdom of God, man seeks Guidance from those that are professed as knowledgeable.
Mainstream religions have schools that teach the history of the particular faith, interpretation of the Bible etc. Unfortunately if one is not consciously united with God as God it becomes a passing down of word from one to another.
We all know what happens in this case. You get 50 people and tell a story to one and pass it down to another and the story gets filtered through the different nervous systems and it is no longer the same story in the end.
Still man looks for the guidance to find it within themselves. No one does it on their own, by this I mean without the external references that are abundant to lead one to experience.
Either one reads a pile of books and comes to their own conclusions and by the sheer will to know stumbles into the awareness, or they seek someone who has attained the knowledge and experience so they do not have to stumble around themselves.
The Passage in Matthew and Luke is an analogy of life and experience. To put something that you worship down in order to realize something of greater value and experience.
It may seem unfortunate, the trixters that sell religion without the experience to stand behind what they preach.
But in the evolution of Self awareness if it sometimes helps one see what God is not when they are inclined to "look for love in all the wrong places." Kind of like giving a kid a pack of cigarettes when they are determined to smoke anyway so they can get a real taste of what they are doing. They either pick up the habit or realize that it will make them sick.
I don't see it as a value for value thing as much as what is real and what there is to value by what you get out of it. What you focus on grows and if your values are on the things that can be taken away then there can never be anything stable in those values.
[quote author=Timothy_417 link=board=6;threadid=2824;start=0#msg14540 date=1065629878]
I'm interested Shawn, you didn't grow up in church did you? I know it's off topic, but what kind of worldview were you raised in?[/quote]
From age 5 to 8 (give or take a year), I attended a catholic church regularly, and have many fond memories and impressions of the religious experiences, though I was more impressed with the architecture, sculptures, and my perception of the vast space within the church than I was with the actual teachings, which I was probably, more or less, unaware of or didn't fully understand.
At age 12, I acquired a large collection of philosophy and religion books from my grandfather, and I read, among other things, the Dhammapada, Will Durant's "Story of Philosophy" (which included a discussion of Schopenhauer's philosophy and his statement that "the World is My Idea", the latter of which I found fascinating), and began meditation on a daily basis for several weeks or months. I'm not sure where I got the idea for meditation from, but I must have read about it somewhere. I was impressed with the Dhammapada's opening, that "All that we are is a result of our thoughts, and is founded on thoughts". The Dhammapada, coupled with Schopenhauer's "the World is My Idea", made me very aware at the time that the World, as we perceive and experience it, is but a construct of the mind.
And so, I guess the short answer to your question, Timothy, is that I was introduced at an early age to the church, but subsequently became an independent thinker at or before age 12, which coincided with my immersion in philosophy and religion books, and with my exposure to different worldviews, and which included, among other things, some elements of eastern philosophy that have, to this day, left their mark on me.
I'm interested Shawn, you didn't grow up in church did you? I know it's off topic, but what kind of worldview were you raised in?[/quote]
From age 5 to 8 (give or take a year), I attended a catholic church regularly, and have many fond memories and impressions of the religious experiences, though I was more impressed with the architecture, sculptures, and my perception of the vast space within the church than I was with the actual teachings, which I was probably, more or less, unaware of or didn't fully understand.
At age 12, I acquired a large collection of philosophy and religion books from my grandfather, and I read, among other things, the Dhammapada, Will Durant's "Story of Philosophy" (which included a discussion of Schopenhauer's philosophy and his statement that "the World is My Idea", the latter of which I found fascinating), and began meditation on a daily basis for several weeks or months. I'm not sure where I got the idea for meditation from, but I must have read about it somewhere. I was impressed with the Dhammapada's opening, that "All that we are is a result of our thoughts, and is founded on thoughts". The Dhammapada, coupled with Schopenhauer's "the World is My Idea", made me very aware at the time that the World, as we perceive and experience it, is but a construct of the mind.
And so, I guess the short answer to your question, Timothy, is that I was introduced at an early age to the church, but subsequently became an independent thinker at or before age 12, which coincided with my immersion in philosophy and religion books, and with my exposure to different worldviews, and which included, among other things, some elements of eastern philosophy that have, to this day, left their mark on me.
Our beliefs create our reality. Thoughts are things. We live in a society based on being paid money for services rendered. Accepting money or not is an individual choice...neither right nor wrong. . Enlightened people assess the circumstances and act accordingly. The love of money is the problem.
well, as long as we're all being honest about the relation btween enlightenment and money!
I agree, money (unfortunately) has become a strong fundation to our society. Kind acts have a strong effect, but you can easily fortify them with money. I can sponser a child in Africa for £5 a week or I can go to Africa with thousands of pounds and bring aid to hundreds of people who are sick or dying. Money is, like all issues connected with faith complex and diverse. However I believe that it doesn't make you less "enlightened" if you accept money for the right reasons. Jesus did ask people to give up their possesions and attachments to follow him. BUT applications of the Bibles teachings in todays soceties need to take into acount the changes in structure that have occured over the past 2000 years. The recognition that possesions are not the be all and end all is what he wanted (i think).
i. Could I really tell myself I was acting in an enlightend manner if I left my daughter to fend for herself or live with another family, because I didn't feel close enough to God?
ii. We all use computers to communicate, do these expensive machines make our expressions any less valid?
i. Could I really tell myself I was acting in an enlightend manner if I left my daughter to fend for herself or live with another family, because I didn't feel close enough to God?
ii. We all use computers to communicate, do these expensive machines make our expressions any less valid?
There's no doubt that money can help enable us to enlighten people that we wouldn't otherwise be able to due to lack of money and resources, but the too-frequent offensively-blatant requests for it are not indicative of an enlightened being, but rather of the money-hungry egotistical swine who covers their true motives with a pleasantly-fragrant easily-accepted facade. I'd say that only 0.01% or less of people claiming enlightenment are actually such. Let's be realistic here, shall we?!
a little bit agressivee aren't we?! and with that attitude how are we ever to trust anyone? 
We spend our whole lives giving and receiveing money, even for the smallest of things, but that doesn't make us bad people, money isn't what corrupts us. We are just fitting into the system our society is run on, it could just as easily be shells and shiny things!
Charities rely on donations, and I'd say a good 99% of them are helping our world. Yes there are people out there, on religious channels and in seperatist communities, claiming enlightenment and asking for money for personal gain... and yes they are charletons, BUT that doesn't mean we can use it as an excuse to avoid other good places to put our money.
The concept of enlightenment has to come to terms with the fact that money is one of the founding fathers of our culture. And you (guest) have to come to terms with the fact that sometimes people do get ripped off, but there are people out there who work soley towards stopping that happen. In the UK all charities have to register and show that their donations go towards what they say they go to. Unfortunately there's not such strict monitoring of religous groups.
We spend our whole lives giving and receiveing money, even for the smallest of things, but that doesn't make us bad people, money isn't what corrupts us. We are just fitting into the system our society is run on, it could just as easily be shells and shiny things!
Charities rely on donations, and I'd say a good 99% of them are helping our world. Yes there are people out there, on religious channels and in seperatist communities, claiming enlightenment and asking for money for personal gain... and yes they are charletons, BUT that doesn't mean we can use it as an excuse to avoid other good places to put our money.
The concept of enlightenment has to come to terms with the fact that money is one of the founding fathers of our culture. And you (guest) have to come to terms with the fact that sometimes people do get ripped off, but there are people out there who work soley towards stopping that happen. In the UK all charities have to register and show that their donations go towards what they say they go to. Unfortunately there's not such strict monitoring of religous groups.
Here is another point to ponder.
Jesus also said a laborer is worth something for his labor.
But that was not his point.
All of the world cherishes what they believe gives them freedom. For most it is money for it allows them to free themselves of hunger by buying food, free themselves of the adverse forces of nature and of being exposed to the elements by being able to buy clothes and shelter.
Most dream of what they could do if they had money they do not have and to aquire more of what they do have.
You don't often hear the mind settle in to the thought I am complete as I am and happy with my circumstances as they are, all is perfect.
Sometimes someone smears the thought over their deeper beliefs that there is always something that needs to be improved or changed, with a positive thought.
If, and lets play here for a moment, someone could bring you something that could change your mind, what would you give for it?
Many are easily parted with their dollar for a meal, a movie, a drink. But suspicion lay everpresent to one who might have a different approach to life that could change your way of thinking, or worse yet have a different experience than you might have about the Universe and even more dramatic, the existence of God.
We learn to mistrust God and everyone who might know something of God because our own experience of God is taken away from us by our parents beliefs and the societal programming that decides what the world really is and who you are.
We are told who we are and should be without retaining any experience of who we really are.
What cost would be appropriate to regain what you have lost?
If you could regain the reality that lay within the universe that all matter is imbued with the Quantum Particles that vibrate with consciousness and are moved and influenced by conscious thought, the universe would be your playground and you could be the master of it rather than the slave.
Humanity thinks very small, only because of what we are told is real.
Money is only an idea we give strength to in the reality that we are victims to the world and not masters of it.
Jesus also said a laborer is worth something for his labor.
But that was not his point.
All of the world cherishes what they believe gives them freedom. For most it is money for it allows them to free themselves of hunger by buying food, free themselves of the adverse forces of nature and of being exposed to the elements by being able to buy clothes and shelter.
Most dream of what they could do if they had money they do not have and to aquire more of what they do have.
You don't often hear the mind settle in to the thought I am complete as I am and happy with my circumstances as they are, all is perfect.
Sometimes someone smears the thought over their deeper beliefs that there is always something that needs to be improved or changed, with a positive thought.
If, and lets play here for a moment, someone could bring you something that could change your mind, what would you give for it?
Many are easily parted with their dollar for a meal, a movie, a drink. But suspicion lay everpresent to one who might have a different approach to life that could change your way of thinking, or worse yet have a different experience than you might have about the Universe and even more dramatic, the existence of God.
We learn to mistrust God and everyone who might know something of God because our own experience of God is taken away from us by our parents beliefs and the societal programming that decides what the world really is and who you are.
We are told who we are and should be without retaining any experience of who we really are.
What cost would be appropriate to regain what you have lost?
If you could regain the reality that lay within the universe that all matter is imbued with the Quantum Particles that vibrate with consciousness and are moved and influenced by conscious thought, the universe would be your playground and you could be the master of it rather than the slave.
Humanity thinks very small, only because of what we are told is real.
Money is only an idea we give strength to in the reality that we are victims to the world and not masters of it.
do you believe you're enlightened Joesus?
jesus of nazer-uh-uh-uth
i can change the water into wine, uh-huh, uh-uh-huh;
i can do it time after time, oh yeah!
i can raise people from the dead
by placing my hands upon their heads
because i'm jesus of nazer-uh-uh-uth!
i can walk on water if i try, uh-huh, uh-uh-huh;
i can come back to life after i die, oh yeah!
i can feed five thousand if i wish
with five loaves and two little fish
because i'm jesus of nazer-uh-uh-uth!
well if i need some assistance i've got my disciples
and they'll help me no end
but i'm not too sure about that judas iscariot
i don't think he's really my friend, no, no no...
© biskitz4cheez 2004
i can change the water into wine, uh-huh, uh-uh-huh;
i can do it time after time, oh yeah!
i can raise people from the dead
by placing my hands upon their heads
because i'm jesus of nazer-uh-uh-uth!
i can walk on water if i try, uh-huh, uh-uh-huh;
i can come back to life after i die, oh yeah!
i can feed five thousand if i wish
with five loaves and two little fish
because i'm jesus of nazer-uh-uh-uth!
well if i need some assistance i've got my disciples
and they'll help me no end
but i'm not too sure about that judas iscariot
i don't think he's really my friend, no, no no...
© biskitz4cheez 2004
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