"Oh! Shariputra, form is empty; emptiness is form. Emptiness is not other than form; form also is not other than emptiness. Likewise, feeling, discrimination, compositional factors and consciousness are empty.

Shariputra, like this all phenomena are merely empty, having no characteristics. They are not produced and do not cease. They have no defilement and no separation from defilement. They have no decrease and no increase.

Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness there is no form, no feeling, no discrimination, no compositional factors, no consciousness. There is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no tactile object, no phenomenon. There is no eye element and so forth up to no mind element and also up to no element of mental consciousness. There is no ignorance and no exhaustion of ignorance, and so forth up to no ageing and death and no exhaustion of ageing and death. Likewise, there is no suffering, origin, cessation or path; no exalted wisdom, no attainment and also no non-attainment.

Therefore Shariputra, because there is no attainment, bodhisattvas rely on and abide in the perfection of wisdom; their minds have no obstructions and no fear. Passing utterly beyond perversity, they attain the final state beyond sorrow. Also, all the Buddhas who perfectly reside in the three times, relying upon the perfection of wisdom, become manifest and complete Buddhas in the state of unsurpassed, perfect and complete enlightenment.

i kno theres already tons of commentary on this, but i wondered if anyone here had anything to say about it.

Hi v3d4,
Need help on the first line!
What is form?
According to that line, emptiness is form!

If so then it is saying 'emptiness is empty'

I would have to agree with that; but it doesn't seem worth saying to me. After all 'fullness is full'!
Best regards, Bill.

Form is the manifest.
The manifest comes from attention on desire dropped into the unmanifest.
The unmanifest is pure potential it is silent and appears empty but it is full of potential, it is neither full because it is empty and it is niether empty because it is full.
What the manifest is made of is what the unmanifest is.
Pure still silent potential (energy). Once activated it is still the same energy only now in form.
By intent and desire it can seem to be something but it is the same nothing.
Take water for example. Freeze it or vaporize it it is still water. IT comes from a larger body and in its many forms eventually returns to the same body.

The unmanifest is often referred to as the unbounded ocean of Milk and the manifest universe as the cosmic waters.
The milk being the nourisher of all things, of all life and the waters the waves on the surface of the ocean (cosmic waters) are stirred by desire or intent.

thanx guys

like i said theres tons of commentaries, and i read some - more than i can remember right now. but 2 things stuck out in my memory:

one person said, "Basically it says enlightenment is not that, not not that, both and neither. It is an explanation, in condensed form, of the virtue of non-dualistic thinking and the nature of enlightenment as not that, not not that, both and neither. Whatever you think enlightenment is, you haven't got it. It isn't a thought, it isn't not a thought, it is both and neither. This is an attempt to descibe something beyond all categories of thinking."

-which obviously is pretty hard to grasp. for me anyway.

one other commentator said: "We are continually confronted with discriminating and dualizing our world. The duality is important, but we also have to be able to see the other side.
The sutra is talking from the other side that is why it seems so strange."

and i thought "the other side"??? doesnt this sound kinda dualistic?

but then thats just my intellect struggling, so...

one other thing.
"Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha!"
in all the translations of the heart sutra i have seen, the mantra of Prajna Paramita is either totally untranslated or is followed by pages and pages of explaination.
joe, im asking you as the person here who would most likely kno, can the mantra be translated a little more succinctly with, um... a little more ecconomy of words?
yes, no, yes and no, neither yes nor no and not neither yes nor no?
does it matter?
i remember one other commentator said "As part of the esoteric, the mantra cannot be thought about" -im tryin not to think about it, but i bet you understand when i say im having a hard time just resting.
p.s. well ive been thinkin. maybe i dont need to be told what it means.
"Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha!"
maybe i already kno?

Hi Veda,
I happen to be at the cybercafe that we run here in Oregon so I don't have access to my Sanskrit materials but I will get back with you on the translation of that particular phrase.
What I do know about Mantras is that they are phrases that are designed to lead the mind towards greater awareness and happiness.
Manus- meaning mind, and Tra- to protect, the mantra creates a direction of intent to expand the mind into itself. To protect the mind is to turn it inward to the source and away from outward sense oriented projection based on illusions of fear and limitation. To bathe it in the light of its source rather than to leave it exposed to the elements of causality and fear.
The Bhodisattva Vow of compassion said to have been stated by Avaloketishvara, was the recognition that all are intimately connected and as one becomes self aware one recognizes that as they put their intention on that connection and enliven it, it grows in both the inward direction of perception as well as the outward sense oriented perceptions as the subtle senses are activated and enlivened.
The Bhodisattva vow of compassion is the vow that states, " as I have been granted divine wisdom I will not abandon that which is connected to me, for I will give myself in service to bring all of the world with me"
This vow has significance in that it is a statement of truth. Brahman is a name that is given to manifestation that is all God or the transcendant isness. "Neti neti" "not that, not that," is from the Brahma Sutras and is a description of Brahman. Similar to Rumi's quote that was posted by Jatava it leads the intellect beyond descriptions based on reality.
When the enlightened describe their experiences of the absolute the intellect tries to equate the literal meanings of the words and attempt to give distinction to one definition, or "A" definition.
The service one gives in bringing all of the world along is to continue to focus on the absolute untill all remnants of reality are absorbed back into their source.
The Sage may continue life in the manifest but the perception is not of limits and values of this and that but of pure God energy in motion, without limits to time and space.
When a person reaches Union there is a thin karmic veil called Leshavidya that exists between the manifest and the unmanifest. This allows the continued perception of the Self in action within the manifest world. Sort of the Cosmic Ego, that is the ability of the divine presence to recognise itself.
Here it is said one lives 200% of life. 100% in the manifest and 100% in the unmanifest absolute silence.
The reference to Karma as in the karmic veil is that the purpose of the created body has a beginning and an end and does not just disappear after enlightenment. IT exists until there is no more purpose and the body exists on many different vibratory levels. The purpose of the Body and of Self has of course many comentaries to go with it as does the Mantra have that you wrote of.
God has a purpose?
We would all like to have the absolute formula for life, that is what the intellect does, it tries to define relationships giving it a tool for preparedness or a point of reference to an identity of awaress and being.

Taken from this website http://www.io.com/~snewton/zen/sanskrit.html



GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA
(gone gone totally gone totally completely gone enlightened so be it)

I will look further into this for fun because I like to make comparisons in translations to see what the essence of them are and if they shine through regardless of the translator.

Ok Veda, heres another translation done by Ishayas.

Prajna Paramita-
(Perfection in Wisdom
[knowledge, discernment,Understanding])

GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA
In the going, in the going, in the going beyond, In the going absolutely [totally, utterly] beyond [all that can be known by reason], the illumined intellect (is provides, offers) the oblation

note: the oblation is the life one lives or has lived all accumulated experiences are offered or surrendered back to the one.
or
In the going, in the going, in the union with that which is beyond, in becoming that which is utterly beyond [all reason] behold! The illumined intellect.

note: the illumined intellect is the consciousness that supercedes the minds collection of experience as reality. It is beyond interpretations of values and judgments.

thanx joe

i think i like this one best:
(gone gone totally gone totally completely gone enlightened so be it)

simple and to the point.