Has anyone here ever tried Salvia Divinorum?  I was trying to alter my perception, but this psychadelic turned out to be by  far the strongest and weirdest psychadelic i've ever tried.  I've read many books on psychadelics but I've only read about this plant in TM Turner's online book.  What I'm curious about is... how does this drug work in our brains?  Do psychadelics enchance an area of our brain or disable it?  The strangest thing about Salvia Divinorum is that you experience two conciousnesses at the same time, because while I was unconcious I was still walking around in a trance but was experiencing something else entirely.  Another weird thing was how realistic these experiences can be even though they are not real.  This may have important implications as to how our brain works.  Another effect I've discovered with this drug is how I can access momery that I've long forgetten.  I can also remember visual details, since as I close my eyes I can still see my house perfectly, and I can walk around in my house and see everything as if my eyes are actually open.  


I think more research needs to be done on psychadelics, they are very interesting and have important implications.  When I major in neurobiology I want to research on these things so that I can eventually try to come up with a drug that dramatically enchances mental capacity, such as memory and conciousness.  There are some drugs that can do this to a degree, such as LSD.  One of my friends mentioned how while on a drug he can just glance at a page from a book and know it, which is like Photoreading but with real-time recall!  It is certainly very interesting and beneficial to make better drugs.

Maybe it doesn't alter perception or conciousness, but was actually a "concious dream" it definately felt like one, here's a paper on concious dreams:

http://www.dog.net.uk/claude/dreams.html

what do you think?

Sounds quite interesting to me, this whole topic of psychodelics playing a role in memory and other things! COOL!
Hey, if you ever need test subjects to dee if this theory works, look me up! I am interested in taking psychodelics...for reaserch of course

I have had personal experiences in the past with LSD, and I must say it has left imprints in my brain of images.

Love, Dara

hey there Dara!  i'm curious... are you shawn's wife?  if not, please don't be offended by my question!

sure I do need test subjects, I was thinking about testing salvonorin A (active ingredient in salvia divinorum) on my guinea pigs, but even though it's harmless to people I don't wanna hurt my adorable pets!  so it'll be nice to see your experience with it, if you need some I can send some =)  it's free to me since I grow them =)

from the experiences of others I read from the internet, some people can actually relive vividly their childhood experiences!  how cool!  from my own experience, it's the strangest thing I've ever been though in my life!  I hypothosize that what is happening is likely being fully concious while dreaming, it's far more vivid then any lucid dream though.  I wonder what is shawn's opinion on this, since i haven't started to study neurobiology yet I don't know very much.

i actually thought that salvia was very light psychadelic until I actually tried it yesterday, it was very terrifying because I truly felt it was another dimension!  even though this is obviously not the case, and it seems more like an exploration of the subconcious (hence the double conciousness feeling)... i'm really curious to know how this new drug works!  it's not an alkoloid like other psychadelics so it's very unique.  well, after the experience I did my research, and according to DM Turner's book, salvia is much stronger than DMT, which is much stronger than most of the other psychadelics.

oh yeah... people on LSD score a lot higher on IQ tests for some reason... if we can learn how this works better and make a drug that can increase IQ if only temporarily, it'll be very useful!

Cot,

Hey I know very little about this :-[ but it was interesting to read your post gave me something to think about and maybe explore more on!  :-*I am always eager to learn! Welcome to the site I hope you podt often It seems to have intrigueing and interesting topics thanks for sharing!
                                                         Hugs,
                                                         Chrissy
                                                     

Hello COTDT,

it's nice to have you here.  I've heard a lot of different opinions concerning the worth of Salvia.  Personally, I haven't found much use for it, though I still retain an open mind about its possible usefulness.  Perhaps you could tell us more about where you obtained Salvia and how you've used it.  Or if you prefer, email me privately.  I'd love to get more info over this.

I think we have similar outlooks concerning the need for more neuroscience research in the direction of psychedelics and the pharmacological enhancement of consciousness.  I know and have tried most of the 'smart drugs' on the market, and have had some success worth mentioning with piracetam, hydergine, and especially vasopressin, though these drugs are somewhat expensive, and as a result, the only one I take on a regular basis is a vasodilator called vinpocetine.

Btw, my wife's name is Tabitha.

take care,

Shawn

hi there everyone!

what a great start for this forum!

you're right about the worth of salvia on personal psychological development, Shawn. I haven't found it very useful either in that respect. It has given me a lot of insights as to how our mind works, however, though I still have no clue as to what exactly it does.  I obtained the salvia by growing them, and then used acetone and naphtane to make a 10x extract, in which I inhaled a large dose.  Despite the warnings to large doses, I've found that small doses have no effect on me, and since I wanted to experience a large range of emotions and mental states to enrich my life (and satify my curiosity) I opted for a "Level 5" dose.  It was an extremely powerful and real experience, and I don't know if I felt as if my conciousness and subconciousness combine or separate, but I felt as if I was concious of 2 different worlds.  During the entire experience I never even knew that it was the effect of the drug because it felt very real, other than that my experience was very similar to the first experience accounted in DM Turner's online book. The 2 important uses I see in Salvia right now is using it as an aid in studying the brain and to fight depression.  I have heard that it is very effective in fighting depression even when presciption drugs fail to work.  Salvia isn't always enjoyable but it is very interesting to see what happens in your inner mind, it's like exploring a part of myself I never knew existed. Only a very strong dose is useful for this, otherwise all I get are visuals, such as blue spinning wheels. Since I meditate frequently, this has been an aid to concentration in small chewed amounts.

Thanks for telling me about the smart drugs, I have been searching for imformation about them for a while now.  These drugs can be very useful personally it seems, I will try them and see how they can help me in school and in life.  Do they also have any major side-effects?  It'll be great if they were cheaper and more people can use them on a dialy basis. A lot of people need it, it seems. =)  To what degree do these smart drugs work?  Are they very minute benefits such as Gingko/caffeine/etc. or are they very significant effects?  With what these drugs can do, I'm surprised they are not as commonly known.

-COTDT

hello COTDT,

thanks for getting back to me on this.  Actually, I'm just getting ready to turn into bed, but wanted to give some sort of reply, so here goes.

If you try smart drugs, a good combo is piracetam (also called nootropin) and hydergine, though like most smart drugs and drugs in general, your system seems to get de-sensitized to the effects after a couple of weeks, unfortunately.  Â Vasopressin is a really neat smart drug, though it's on the expensive side of things.  Nonetheless, it's capable of altering your perception of things in a way I can't really describe.  You have to experience it.  If you do try vasopressin at higher doses for over a couple weeks, you will probably also notice much more potent, mind-altering orgasms.  It happened to me really strong on one occasion, and more mildly on several.  But on that one occasion, it was really, really weird....On the auditory side of things, it was like, some background noise starting getting really loud, and then 'pop', followed by absolute silence.  Visually, everything started slowing down until they seemed frozen in time.   Very, very strange indeed! However, it's been several months since I last tried vasopressin.  If I had more money, I'd use it more frequently.

Vinpocetine is a very nice vasodilator, said to be much more effective than gingko biloba.  And so, if you're currently trying gingko, I'd definitely recommend switching over to vinpocetine, or at least giving it a chance.  Mind you, it tastes absolutely disgusting, so if you get the tablet form, don't leave it in your mouth for more than a few seconds.

Anyway, I'm off to sleep now.  I'll talk some more tomorrow.

take care,

Shawn

whoa what an interesting experience with vasopressin! thanks for the advice, I will visit the pharmacy today to see if I can find any of these smart drugs.  They are fascinating!  maybe that was what helped you become so productive?  Has anyone else here had experiences with smart drugs?

hello COTDT,

Productivity is enhanced when you first start taking a particular combo of smart drugs, as is creativity, mood, alertness, and various other psychological dimensions.  However, like all drugs it seems, de-sensitization rears its ugly head sooner or later, so that you no longer experience the desired effects while on the smart drugs.  So, what can you do then?  You could up the dose, but this would be expensive.  Alternatively, you could switch to a different combo of smart drugs and allow your system to re-sensitize itself to the first combo, until you de-sensitize to the second combo, in which case you switch either to the original or an altogether different combo, and so on and so forth.

But, whether this solves the problem or not, I must say that de-sensitization really sucks, and it seems to be so general, so that it's not just limited to drugs, but also novel experiences.  Remember the first time you did something special, like your first sexual experience for example, or the first time you started driving, or when you looked out onto the world with the eyes of a child, and then you do it again and again and it's not so special anymore.  It's sort of a novelty effect:  We're more conscious and more aware, and just more alive, experiencing novel things, whether they be smart drugs or other things.  

So, in conclusion, we need a better solution to the problem of de-sensitization and the loss of the 'novelty effect' so as to make life more enjoyable and meaningful, and we can only do this thru neuroscience, and very likely, pharmacological neuroscience.

I must be having a bout of dyslexia today(if indeed one can get a "bout"of dyslexia), I was reading these posts here, and I thought the drug was Saliva! I was wondering how all of us who salivate didn't get mind altering side effects...DUH, silly me. The I read it more closely and realized it was Salvia, not saliva! Though, there is a band called Saliva, or maybe it is Salvia, and i am just reading it wrong!!!

Bye for now, Dara

That's my little sister, folks.  The best and most beautiful girl in the world, and also the funniest.  God, I love her!  I have smoked a great deal of salvia divinorum, or Diviner's Sage, as we call it here in southern California.  It is still legal, at the moment!  By the time I get it I find it dry and faded, rather like potpourri.  But there is something there.  A spark of magick.  Any advice as to how to obtain higher quality salvia, and how best to ingest it?

HAHAHAHA!
Dara you are so funny!  I almost laughed to death when I read your post!  Yes, you should search for extra-potent saliva from the opposite sex and get mind-altering effects from the experience.  Serious!

Yeah, the drug is salvia divinorum, and btw Stevelance... how was your experience while on Salvia?  Did you smoke a small dose to get the visualizations or did you take a megadose and lose all sense of reality?  It does indeed seem like magic when you cross the "threshold."  But... I'm very interested in the neurobiological reason why we get that experience, ie. what salvinorin A triggers in our brains to start that effect.  Well, if you want to cross the threshold for a full-brown experience you'll need a torchlighter (mine goes to 2500 degrees) and 10x extract.  I just dried my leaves, soaked a jarfull in Acetone for an hour, removed most of the leaves, crushed the rest with a flat screwdriver, and dry the solution with a fan.  All this must be done in the dark as the light destroys the salvinorin in acetone solution.  You can tell the potency of the leaves after it's all dry by just looking at it.  Mine's was shiny green and sparkling with crystals.  You can't really get any harmful overdoses on salvia since you pass into another world before you can get any more.

The desensivitation problem is an annoyance!  Why do we get desensivitized anyway?  is it because of the attitude, memory, or what?  Is the desensivitation from drugs the same type of sensensivitaion from... say sex?  With many life experiences, if attitude can be altered then the desensivitation is less of a problem, but can we do the same for smart drugs?  I'm planning to order 2 packs of vinpocetine and a small spray of vasopressin.  What's better, spray or pills?  I hope they work!  Actually, I know they will.  However, after not using a smart drug for a while, does that mean we become completely resensivitized or just to a certain degree?  Since in my experience with caffeine, at first my mind became incredibly clear, but I can never even get close to the experience anymore, no matter how long I pause using it.

Has anyone tried large amounts of Taurine?  I heard that it was dangerous, but I never had any problems with Taurine so I tried a larger dose, and it made me feel very energetic and gave me a very clear mind, much more effective than caffeine.

Oh yeah... the quid method of ingesting salvia is more pleasant, but the leaves are very bitter and tastes like rotten eggs in your mouth.  I'd definately not want to do that!  I know a person who was so disgusted with the leaves that he threw up the entire contents of his stomach, and yet still managed to keep the quid in his mouth!  He got the experience.... but it's a lot different from smoking it.  

Another trick is to put 5-10mg of pure salvinorin crystals under your tongue before bedtime and go to sleep.  I heard that there's no effect but after you fall asleep, you'll very likely get a lucid dream.  Lucid dreams are fun too =)  From what I've heard though... these are more vivid than even most lucid dreams.  I haven't tried it yet, but I'm planning to.

Lets try this again. Maybe my computer wont restart spontaneously when I hit post!

Hi all. . . im new to this forum (as in, first-post new) and I was reading yall's comments about psychoactives, and a thought smacked me: has there any research been done concerning perception-altering drugs and biofeedback? I hear many of you talk about getting in touch with your sub-conscious, what sort of effect might this have on one's autonomic NS? Has anyone had any experiences with this?

Also, yes SalIVa is a band, from the southern US- Mississippi or Memphis, I believe. I saw them in concert a few months back on the birthday of the lead singer. Fun stuff.

Cheers. . .
-Tom

I like one of Saliva's songs! I believe it is called "Always"

Bye now, Dara

hello Tom A, it's nice to have you here.  About biofeedback modifying ones autonomic nervous system, this is well-documented.  For example, using EEG as feedback (which monitors brain activity) has proven useful for some attention deficit disorders, and EKG (electrocardiogram) feedback has been used to modify pulse rate.  It would be nice to use EEG feedback for altering perception or facilitating the switch between different modes of consciousness, and I've probably come across anecdotal accounts of this, but I am not aware of any hard evidence which suggests EEG feedback could be used for.

COTDT, I"m glad to see you back.  I can vouch for supplemental Taurine being able to energize you.  The only time it's enhanced my thinking and imagination capabilities, resulting in greater lucidity, was when I combined red bull (with has Taurine, though I'm not sure how much) with the vasodilator Vinpocetine.  

take care,

Shawn

hello everyone,
to take up Tom's question again about psychedelic research, the short answer is 'yes', there has been some research done on psychedelics, and one of these days I'll post many of the findings, including regions of the brain that are activated by various psychedelics and corresponding subjective states.  In the meantime, though, I'd recommend anyone with an interest to use Pubmed to search for relevant abstracts and links to articles:  http://pubmed.com

take care,
Shawn

Hi everyone,

I'm another newbie and feel privileged to have a site like mind-brain available.

This article rather surprised me.
[Please forgive any sense of criticism that my writing may convey. This not my intention. I am only interested in finding the Truth. I am not qualified in biomedics and can only write based on what I have read or experienced]. My capacity for concentration is limited so the flow of my thoughts may not be ideal - again I can only apologise.

I have been afflicted throughout my life with endogenous depression, though I only found out when I was 45. I am now retired with ill-health.
After trying about 15 of the prescribable anti-depressive drugs I found one that had minimal side effects and have continued with it for the last  5 years or so.
On starting with these drugs, on tricyclics, I became aware of perception enhancements similar to those described in your article.
I was very shocked by the changes in my sensual sensitivities. Indeed, I felt so different on awakening one morning, that I could only conclude that I had died overnight and must therefore be in some sort of spiritual world!!! I would say it took me 2 years to accept that I had been underperforming as a body unit and that my new comprehension of existence was now 'normal' [my body was underperforming, not ME].

My surprise is due to the apparent fact that normal, healthy people are trying psychedlic drugs to advance from normal performance to above-normal performance. I suspect that the commonly recognised desensitisation I just read about in another message board is due to the brains' inbuilt regulators inhibiting internal production of neurotransmitters to compensate for externally delivered (or enabled) ones. We would be lost without the hundreds of body-stats we own!

Or, is it possible that those who are drawn to experiment are already partially deficient in neurotransmitters, and experiencing something similar the transition I witnessed? [I use the word deficient here but realise that there may be a surplus. Different neurotransmitters seem to inhibit and stimulate different areas of the brain or cell types and their performance may be different in different people].

Experimentation for the benefit of others is highly commendable. The relief of my symptoms are probably down to some of this activity. But I can see dangers here, particularly in any assumption that the brain will always kick back into production when external drugs are stopped. The toxic effects of the drugs that are being used apparently in an uncontrolled fashion need to be considered. I think anyone so experimenting should keep private records to make the information available in unfortunate circumstances. What's the point of experimenting if the data is not made available?

Since around 1975 I have also suffered from Menieres syndrome - for me this was three dizziness attacks per month each followed by severe vomiting with gradually increasing deafness over the years. My left ear would now be suitable for removal and use as a fly swat! There is no cure for this affliction except surgery which leaves you deaf anyway. But my antidepressant tablets suppress all my dizzy attacks! Within 24 hours of stopping my tablets I have another attack!

A good salvia website, best iv'e found anyways, is www.sagewisdom.com

The runner of the site has discovered alot about salvinorin A and salvia divinorum. Great site.

Shawn, I was wondering if you answer me a few about this vinpocetine drug when you have the time.

Is it legal?
Where could I get it?
What are the effects like?
Is it bad for you in any way?

Thanks

hello River,

If you live in the U.S., like I do, then you should be able to find vinpocetine in most pharmacies and probably even in the vitamin aisle of supermarkets.  It's an OTC (over the counter) drug, meaning it's legal and you won't need a prescription.  You can often find vinpocetine for sale on 'Smart Drugs' sites, though these prices are generally higher than in the stores.     Vinpocetine is a potent vasodilator, and studies have shown that it increases blood supply to the brain.   It's much more potent than Gingko biloba.  In fact, you may be able to run a Pubmed search (at http://pubmed.com ) on vinpocetine to see if you can pull up abstracts regarding research that's been done using it.
Nothing I've heard or read about vinpocetine suggests it's bad in any way.   I'd recommend going to your pharmacy or supermarket and spending $8-$10 for 60 tablets of it so you can see for yourself whether it's useful or not.   If you do this, then the first time you try it, try 2 tablets (which I think is 60 mg) on an empty stomach and see if it does anything for you.

And if you do try it, perhaps you could tell us if you consider it worthwhile or not?

good luck,
and take care,
Shawn

Thanks Shawn, im planning on trying it pretty soon here. I'l let you know how it turns out.

Also, I was wandering something the other night. Are there any drugs that you know of that induce Lucid dreams that I could take before I go to bed. I'm very interested in anything that would increase my chances. I've tried canibis, and that warks pretty good, but it's expensive and illegal.

Thanks again

hello Carl,

some people (like Hobson, author of the Dream Drugstore) believe all psychedelic experience is more or less the same as lucid dreaming.   So, I guess, according to such a view, any psychedelic should be able to put you in a state of lucid dreaming.   Personally, I don't agree with Hobson and equating psychedelic experience with lucid dreaming, but thought it was at least worth mentioning.

Some legal substances that I've noticed increase lucid dreaming are cholinergics, like nicotine and purified phosphatidyl choline (which is much purer than lecithin).

Phosphatidyl choline is rather expensive for a supplement, but it might be well worth trying.  If I had more money, i'd be taking it daily.   My experience with it is positive though.  Not only will it increase lucid dreaming, but will also increase your ability to mentally visualize things.

Nicotine is a wonderful drug, but oh, so addictive!  It's really a shame it's so addictive, and so you should be very careful if and when you play around with this.  I'm not talking about smoking, but rather the 21 mg nicotine patch.  Put that baby on, and expect to not only feel really, really good, but also to have some very lucid dreams.  I've also noticed positive effects on creativity and ambitiousness, but these things have to weighed carefully against it's negative aspects, the foremost of which is it's addictiveness.

I know there are other legal drugs for lucid dreaming, but I'll have to look into it more to find out what they are.  If you come across any, please post the info here.

take care,
Shawn

I've encountered lucid dreaming accidentally a few times, but found that I could expect it when I woke up a few hours early in the morning, fully wakened, and then relaxed back into sleep.

really fantastic, to be fully conscious in dreamstate is better than drugs, but it is very hard to 'grasp'.  You have to sort of relax into it, like surfing a wave.

I also noticed the lucid dreaming to only occur when my brain had been on 'vacation' for some week(s)

8)

Hi all,
I take regular antidepressant tabs and am a smker so high on nicotine.
Strangely, I only have lucid dreams, and they are suuuuperb, when I am getting low on the effects of the antidepressants! Their incidence is a perfect reminder that I have forgotten my daily dose or have been thinking too hard!

Best regards and healthy seeking, Bill.

Thanks Shawn

Shawn,

Thanks again for the free canvas, it is very generous of you.

My experience with entheogens has been very rewarding.
I used to take drugs to recreat (isn't that funny I just noticed the simlilarity  with create)
Since I am experimenting with 'controlled visions'.
(I don't actually attempt to control the visions but the areas of focus of those visions.)  I have taken ayahuasca types and their anologues for a total of fifteen times over the past several years.
Lots of experienced people here .  McKenna was an island local and Lilly lived on the next island.  I knew them both, ever so slightly.  Doing some neurophysiology  (evoked potential measurements in brain activities with dolphins) with Lilly while he was at the Dolphin Research Center
I did not self administer as there is an excellent shamanistic attuned person nearby.  The experience puts me in direct contact with the genius within while I am in an alert state.  I create a status of expectation for this entity to appear with directed intentionality before hand.   The inner entity always appeared.  This is akin to lucid dreaming as I had an interactive conversation with the entity.  Receiving wise information which I brought back with me and applied to my life.
Lucid dreaming, if not understood, puts the emphasis on the ego and its experiences thereby limiting the experiences to the scope of ego control.  Lucidity should be limited to allowing the witnessing effect to be just that-a minor participant in the event not the major player.  Otherwise the experience is just the recreation activities of the ego in this world of visual imagery. (The visual imagery is created by an internal ability to create images of underlying energies which normally can not be perceived.  This is the world of the Nagual in Toltec lore) The ego wants always to take center stage and does unless instructed not to.  Lucidity should come after the intention to manifest the genius within.  Otherwise,The ego will take the participant for a ride through chaos if this is not understood.  That is why Carlos Castenade mislead so many people.  He did not understand dreaming in the Toltec way, taking most of his knowledge from Lebarge while attending classes at UCLA.  His Art of Dreaming is a cruel joke in this.
respect.
Yes, I sound like an expert.  I am, I paid my dues.
But, I am a barefoot expert and don't have to get lost in jargon or wear anyone else's uniform.
The genius within is the same one I have encountered for the past twelve years in a certain type of dream only encountered with greater intensity and interactivity in these sessions.
I have no intention for any one to follow my path but thought these comments may be helpful to some.

Well,i can offer just a tidbit of info since im in a hurry right now (already ready for a date) and unfortunatelly cannot elaborate.

On Salvia Divinorum: Salvivorin A has an affinity for K opioid receptors http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia_info5.shtml

Also an unnoficial statement about MAOi's like harmine and harmaline potentiating Salvia : http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia_info.shtml

I do not know if this is an anomalous observation since salvinorin A is not a monoamine (not even an alkaloid) ,it is in the terpene family.Maybe the effects are just additive?

Herbs for Lucid dreaming: Calea zacatechichi http://www.erowid.org/plants/calea_zacatechichi/

Also i have found that sub-delerium dosages of datura (tropane alkaloids:atropine scopolamine,hyosciamine) can induce lucid dreaming sometimes.This comes in contrast with some reports stating narcotic effects.EXERCISE GREAT AUTION,THIS PLANT CAN KILL!

Thats all from me now!

If you are under the age of 18, like i am, can you still buy vasopressin and/or vinpocetine from a regular drugstore?

If not, is there anyway, other than meditation, that I can get to transendental states of conciousness?

Can vasopressin or vinpocetine help you attain transedental states of cociousness? I've been meaning to try these drugs, but I don't know if it's legal, beings i'm only 16 years of age.

Any help would be good. Thanks!

Hi River,

Irrespective of the legality of the situation [I don't know] I would strongly advise you to wait for at least 5 years.

Read all you can about the topic. Learn more about yourself.
Then decide whether you want to experiment with the body you have to live with for the rest of your life!
I don't want to be a spoil sport [I smoke cigs myself], but that is my personal advice.

Best regards, Bill.

If you are under the age of 18, like i am, can you still buy vasopressin and/or vinpocetine from a regular drugstore?

If not, is there anyway, other than meditation, that I can get to transendental states of conciousness?

Can vasopressin or vinpocetine help you attain transedental states of cociousness? I've been meaning to try these drugs, but I don't know if it's legal, beings i'm only 16 years of age.

Any help would be good. Thanks!

Please do not think that this is something i have not thought about,my health that is. Also, I know enough to know that perception altering drugs is something that i wish to experement with, useing some safety precautions of corse, thanks for your concern though rhymer.

Hi river,
I'm glad to see that you are at line 3 of my post and have made your considered judgement.

Best regards,
Bill

There is no point in helping those who don't need it or want - but should one presume it is not required?

hi River,

vinpocetine is a regular OTC that can be purchased online or at a drugstore. For example, where I live, I normally just get vinpocetine at CVS when I want to.

I do not believe that Vasopressin is legal to sell in the U.S., but you can order it from an overseas pharmacy that you can find online and have them ship it to you.

Vasopressin, the first few times you try it, can produce interesting experiences, but I wouldn't characterize them as transcendent. Also, while meditation is useful for inducing a certain calm, relaxing, meditative state of mind, there are so many transcendent states of consciousness that are not accessible through meditation alone, that it would be a mistake to think that meditation is your only tool for realizing transcendent states of consciousness. There are other tools out there, some pharmacological and some not, that can be used in conjunction with meditative or other techniques, for the purposes of augmenting, facilitating, altering, and/or realizing transcendent states of consciousness. The most important, perhaps, is 'mind-set', which is a term describing how prepared you are for the experience, your expectations, your beliefs, your memories, your current state of mind.

The answers you seek are on this site. You just need to look more.

-rhymer-

when I said
all news is good news, unless it's bad news.
I wasn't referring to what you said as bad news, although, reading back it kind of looks that way.
I'm sorry about the missunderstanding.
I only meant, that any news that anyone could give me whould be good news, unless it was bad news.

what I should have said intead is propably, thanks for your concern.

thanks for the information.
I'l really have to look around your site some more.

hey river,
i been thinkin, depending on where you live, i bet theres already drugs avalible that can help you get to transcendent consciousness. not legal ones i mean.

the thing is, as its already been pointed out, the problem is that in using these kinda drugs, there are traps and dangers you can fall into. - i read in some tibetan book that there is a long path and a short path to enlightenment (others also teach this); the long path is long and slow but the short path is narrow, with dangers on all sides. -so theres that. i mean without getting too esoteric i think this applies pretty obviously to using entheogens.

so im stopping myself from giving you a long list of admonisions and warnings, but what i think cannot be overemphasized is the importance of set and setting. that is, your mindset, and the setting in which you do these drugz. b4 you eat a mushroom or even smoke a blunt i want you to be totally clear on your intent

[quote]so im stopping myself from giving you a long list of admonisions and warnings...[/quote]
well im having a hard time stopping myself.
i just want you to be ok, river, i want you to grow in beauty and harmony, and not get trapped or messed up.
we can talk about this more in private if you want, with more specifics about different drugz and my experience and what i learned.

Does anybody use marijuana on a daily basis to acheive an enlightened state of mind?

maybe :

why roll your eyes? i think its a perfectly valid question.
ill tell you what tho, toking in and of itself wont get you enlightenment, and with habitual daily toking you can obviously get distracted from your goal.
it can open blocked avenues of thought and awareness, depending completely on intent.
and over time these changes to thinking and attitude can be made permanant, withotu the need for more weed.
personally marijuana has helped me to open my awareness and to remember oneness when i otherwise might go on believing i was cut off or seperate from the rest of the universe.
a stoned person understands the statement "i am one with the universe" as well as other esoteric and deeply meaningful pronouncements like "delicious pie belongs to the world" and "hey man watch where you step, there's a purple somewhere"
so basically id say the possibility for attaining higher levels of awareness is there, but right now i have the worst cottonmouth and ME SO HUNGRY! ;D :-* ;D 8) ;D

I agree with Veda on this. I don't think it's such a great idea to take it daily. Taking it that often will only produce a rapid and prolonged desensitization and habituation, with the result being that, after awhile (a few weeks maybe), you won't notice any interesting or enlightening effects.

Also, you have to take into account the negative side effects of marijuana, such as loss of willpower and motivation. Maybe you haven't experienced this, but then again, maybe you have.

On the other hand, if there were some way to prevent the desensitization and habituation, as well as the negative side effects, well, ...... that would be interesting. Nootropics may help alleviate the negative side effects (and potentiate the positive effects), but will not do much for desensitization and habituation. In fact, you will invariably become somewhat desensitized and habituated to taking nootropics themselves, thereby rendering them rather useless if you use them for prolonged periods of time.

It would seem that desensitization and habituation are the inevitable consequences of all prolonged attempts to chemically-induce modifications of consciousness. Cycling between different chemicals can help alleviate this problem, but it always rears its ugly head sooner or later, unfortunately.

[quote]I agree with Veda on this. I don't think it's such a great idea to take it daily. Taking it that often will only produce a rapid and prolonged desensitization and habituation, with the result being that, after awhile (a few weeks maybe), you won't notice any interesting or enlightening effects.

Also, you have to take into account the negative side effects of marijuana, such as loss of willpower and motivation. Maybe you haven't experienced this, but then again, maybe you have.[/quote]
well i didnt say that exactly
cannabis is medicine.
cannabis is a sacrament.

i dont see anything wrong with daily use, and for some people i unhesitatingly reccomend it. but not for everybody, and not as a means of attaining enlightenment.
habituation is an issue. if you wake and bake every day for a while it wont be long before your morning toke has lost its power and significance.
desensitization, or tolerance, is an issue becuz after a while one bong hit just wont get you stoned anymore, and if you end up toking all day every day, you are maybe spending more time thinking about toking than you are concentrating on greater awareness and higher (no pun intended ) levels of consciousness.

as for the loss of motivation and willpower, i dont think this is a really serious or valid objection. it depends on what strain youre using. indicas are known for their "couchlock" effect, while sativas are generally recognized for giving an 'up' and cerebral high, and in many places sativa is used by laborers to increase productivity. different strains will have different concentrations of thc and other cannabinoids to give different effects.
now i have read a study that suggested an amotivational effect is a problem for adolescents and teens that regularly toke up, but not for adults (ill dig up the link for that if you want). even if that werent so, id say theres no good reason for regular healthy adolescents or teens to be using cannabis every day, mainly becuz of the distraction and habit factor.

cannabis is medicine
cannabis is a sacrament
but its not a boat thatll take us over the whole sea of ignorance and evil. id say its usefull as an oar, but its usefulness like anything else, depends entirely on the intent with which its used.

now let's give thanx and praise to the Lord, and pass to the left hand side mon ;D

Hey guys.. thnx for replying to my message.Personally, I smoke marijuana everyday. It helps me relax after a long day. Im 18 years old and currentlry enrolled in Univeristy. Smoking Marijuana daily has not affected my grades or anything like that at all. It allows me to think more clearly, and ponder upon events that are currently taking place in my life. Most of the time I write down these thoghts and refer to them from time to time. Usually, i smoke bymyself. This allows me to fully concentrate and explore my being with no distraction. I do not smoke cigarattes or drink alcohol at all. Personally, I hate being drunk and see no point in it. The taste of alcohol is revolting and cigarattes are no better. I acknowlege that desensitization and habituation does occur, but with increased amounts of this herb the same effects can be acheived. I don't know if this is the best method for reaching a higher level of englighment, but i am sceptical about taking "harder" drugs. Maybe somebody can reconmend something? Alot of my friends are doing everything from X to ether. But the side effects of these drugs are quite sever. To me, the herb acts as the medium by which self reflection becomes quite easy. I am able to think on a higher level. Sometimes these thoghts are somewhat morbid in a sense, or depressing. But whatever they are, I know its the truth. I don't know if i have a pshychological problem or what but for the most of the day I end up locking myslef in my room and I talk to myslef about politics, philosophy and the world in general. Sometimes these thoguhts bring me to tears even when im not high. I never smoke during the day and i don't understnad why i think about these things. Why do they plague my mind? Is this depression? I don't know. But sometiems I wish that I just didn't care at all. My life would be alot easier if i didn't give a shit about anything.

Any drug altered state of consciousness does not alter or expand consciousness permanently. It creates a false impression of the selfs expanded awareness. It allows one to step outside of their habits and fears temporarily by providing a crutch to do so. In the long run without the crutch what can easily be done naturally becomes difficult without the assistance of the aid.
Smoking dope helps to create an artificial state of relaxation which can also be achieved naturally by the body without the assistance of anything. One simply has to stop believing in the stress or initiating what causes the stress that you need to find escape from.
The idea that drugs don't hurt anything is relative to what you might experience if you didn't, but if you do, how would you know what your life would be like if you didn't? It's kind of a useless argument to say I am this way and I wouln't be any different if I did something different.

Hey Shawn. Thank you for sheding light on this topic for me. It really has put me at ease. Now that i think about it, I can see that what you are saying is true. At this point in my life I am attempting to explore the meaning of my life and what purpose i serve. The Judo-christian model of religon fails to define this for me. In all, what is the bible but a bunch of stories written by man? Do not get me wrong, I believe in God. For us to exist, a supreme being must have existed before us- creating the world, universe etc.. I believe that religon is a lifestyle. My body is my temple. I don't need a church to tell me how to praise my creator. Actions speek louder than words. No man, including the Pope, is "better" or holier that another. We all are equals, but will pay in the after life for the decisons we make on earth and what we contribute to society as a whole. I wish that I could come to some sort of understanding of myslef. Who is Mike? Am i "fake" in the sense of not knowing my inner self? Is my inner-self in a constant state of flux? Or is their a definitive answer to this question? Hopefully, with time, I will be able to answer these questions.

Hi Mike,

Reading your words of wisdom reminds me of my experience of identifying with 'myself'.

So much in the lifestyles of so many people is invested in falsity that you try to avoid contact.
But, being armed with your knowledge and ability to differentiate between the false and the true, I would suggest that you will only benefit from much greater social contact with your colleagues who have the same interests as yourself. Join campus discussion groups, make your points and observations and try to develop your social skills. It is most unlikely that you will be converted 'downwards', and potentially you will increase even further your understanding of yourself and this marvellous world in we live.

All the best, Bill.
PS If there's nothing wrong, don't take something for it!

Hey Bill. Im glad to know that i am not alone. I thought I was goign crazy! I will attempt to seek and join discussion groups at my University as you suggested. It is difficult thought at times and I do feel alone in the sense that my currnt friends have absolutley no intrest in what it is I have to say. Its not that they don't care, but they seem to be dissinterested and can't relate to what I am trying to say to them. This is why I tend to separate myslef from most. I do not know how any rational human being can go through life without asking these questions. How can one simply ignore and not attmept to find "themselves". It is a tormeting process, but at the end of it all I know that coming to some sort of understanding of myslef will be the most glorious moment of my existence. I have decided to take a break from my marijuana use. Its been 3 days since I have last smoked and I am taking some time to clear my head. Well, I have finals on Monday so i am goign to go study. Take care, Mike.

the roughest roads lead to the most beautiful of places.

Besides what's already been talked about in this thread (smart drugs, salvia, marijuana, anti-depressants), I'd be curious to hear about other perception altering drugs that people have tried and their experiences on them. There are some that I would like to talk about, but I'm not sure about how best to go about introducing them.