hi everyone,

thought I'd start a thread over temperaments to hopefully have other people join in and maybe share with us info over their own temperament.  If you don't know your temperament, you can take a quick test at http://www.halverson-law.com/n51-1.htm to find out.

First off, a few useful links:
http://keirsey.com/
http://directory.google.com/Top/Science/So...d_Keirsey/?tc=1
http://www.halverson-law.com/intp.htm#typelink


Btw, I took this Keirsey Temperament Test years ago, and fell between INTJ and INTP, but slightly closer to INTJ.  In the following, I've posted a brief description of the INTJ temperament.  


General Description of the INTJ

- Manipulates the world of theory as if on a gigantic chess board, always seeking strategies and tactics that have high payoff.
- Eye for the consequence.
- Can be ruthless.
- Seldom counting personal cost .
- Dealing with reality.
- Using deductive logic, they use their intuition to grasp coherence.
- Useful.
- Creativity.
- Very single minded at times - this can be a weakness or a strength.
- They can ignore the points of view and wishes of others.
- Coherence is the master.
- Cost effective.
- Relationships which have psychological distance.
- Often seem demanding and difficult to satisfy.
- Independent.
- Hypersensitive to signals of rejection.
- Others receive a sense of haste.
- Vulnerable in the emotional area and may make serious mistakes here.
- When asked to put something together for the first time - a prototype - he is all the more happy, since he is doing that which is most worthwhile.
- Abhors unsnarling messes.
- Things have to make sense.- Avoids redundancy.
- May have difficulty communicating the details of goals.
- Prefers not to say anything twice and assumes understanding.
- Serious.
- NTs tend to be relatively uninterested in acquiring wealth.
- Nts usually take family responsibilities seriously.
- NTs tend not to "own" the behaviors or bodies of their mates.
- NTs' own errors are those which are inexcusable and unforgivable.




hehe, yup, everything's a big chessboard for me!

later,

Shawn

this is what i got
----------------__________--------------
General Description of INFJs

- Focus on possibilities.
- Think in terms of values.
- Come easily to decisions.
- Contribute to the welfare of others.
- Strong empathic abilities.
- Over-perfectionist.
- Hard to get to know.
- Hurt rather easily by others.
- Like to please others.
- Masters of the metaphor.
- Enjoy problem-solving.
- Concerned with people's feelings.
- Able to provide a barometer of the feelings of others.
- Listen well.
- Can have their feelings hurt rather easily.
- Need and want harmony.
- Find constant conflict, overt or covert, which is extremely destructive to their psyches.
- Their friendship circle is likely to be small, deep, and long-standing.
 

later,
Anne

I am an INFP

Introvert
Intuition
Feeling
Percepton

I have taken the Meyers-Briggs before in college, 2 diferent times, and each time I come out INFP!

Bye, Dara

the more I think about it the less i seem to fit what the test said about me.... maybe ill take it again.....

INFJ and INFP?  It's interesting that you're both introverted NF's, or introverted Apollonians.  There's an excellent and very readable book by Keirsey and Bates called 'Please Understand Me', which is all about character and temperament types, that you may both find interesting if you can get a copy of it.  I got a hold of my mom's copy, who apparently got it while she was raising me and my brother.  How does the INFJ description differ from your temperament, Anne?

take care,

Shawn

Here's another Meyers-Briggs test:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

On both this test and the one Shawn mentioned, I came out as an ISTJ.

You are:
moderately expressed introvert

slightly expressed intuitive personality

slightly expressed feeling personality

slightly expressed judging personality

Shawn, here is some more info on your personality type, INTJ. I thought the following characteristics really fit you:

INTJs generally have the following traits:

Able to absorb extremely complex theoretical and complex material

Driven to create order and structure from theoretical abstractions

Love difficult theoretical challenges

Have very high standards for performance, which they apply to themselves most strongly

Calm, collected and analytical

Extremely logical and rational

Original and independent

Possible Career Paths for the INTJ:

Scientists
Engineers
Professors and Teachers
Medical Doctors / Dentists

Scary!

The description of my personality type, ISTJ, can be found on this page, and practically everything is true!

http://www.personalitypage.com/ISTJ_car.html

thank you, Doug.  I'm sorry I didn't see this post earlier or I would've responded sooner.   Did you find these INTJ characteristics at http://www.humanmetrics.com ?  While I was reading thru the characteristics you posted, some thoughts crossed my mind:

"Driven to create order and structure...."
Very true, though to put it more accurately, 'driven to create/perceive structure'.

"Have very high standards for performance, which they apply to themselves most strongly"
Yes, I've often regarded it, with some amusement, as something of a cruel joke of Nature that I'm my own worst judge; an omnipresent and harsh judge watching over all of my actions and thoughts.  People tend to comment on how critical I am of them, but they don't appreciate that that's just the way I am, and that I'm much, much more critical of myself.

"Calm, collected and analytical"
Most of the time, but I've certainly had my fair share of Dionysian ecstatic moments that are characterized by manic excitement, exuberance, and not a little irrationality!  Also, the calm, collected exterior sometimes is a mask that belies something else.

"Original and independent"
very true, though I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that I moved around so frequently while growing up, and how much is just my natural temperament.

Thank you again, Doug.  Your post made me very happy.  Btw, I looked at the ISTJ page.  Very interesting.  Yes, I'd say it's an apt description of you, even down to the profession.  

I'll ttyl,
Shawn

hi everyone,

thought i'd post just a short description of the Myers-Briggs Typology system (gotten from http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JungType.htm ) so that everyone understands what it's all about.  


According to Jung's typology all people can be classified using three criteria.
  These criteria are:
  Extroversion - Introversion
  Sensing - Intuition
  Thinking - Feeling

  Isabel Briggs-Myers added fourth criterion:
  Judging - Perceiving
   The first criterion defines the source and direction of energy expression for a person. The extrovert has a source and direction of energy expression mainly in the external world while the introvert has a source of energy mainly in the internal world.
   The second criterion defines the method of information perception by a person. Sensing means that a person believes mainly information he receives directly from the external world. Intuition means that a person believes mainly information he receives from the internal or imaginative world.
   The third criterion defines how the person processes information. Thinking means that a person makes a decision mainly through logic. Feeling means that, as a rule, he makes a decision based on emotion.
   The fourth criterion defines how a person implements the information he has processed. Judging means that a person organizes all his life events and acts strictly according to his plans. Perceiving means that he is inclined to improvise and seek alternatives.

   The different combinations of the criteria determine a type. There may be sixteen types. Every type has a name (or formula) according to the combination of criteria. For example:
   ISTJ
Introvert Sensing Thinking Judging or
  ENFP
Extrovert INtuitive Feeling Perceiving or
INTJ
Introvert INtuitive Thinking Judging
   For a certain person a type formula and quantitative measure of expression of each criterion (strength of the preference) can be determined using the Type inventory. Then the corresponding type description can be represented.

Hi Shawn,

Thanks for the informations. It is always a pleasure to read you. It is short, precise and a good summary.

I am learning.............., that is gooood.
Thanks,
Stella

My firgure out this great thing! I am who i am... i dont think those tests to squat

and you know what, Anne?  I more or less agree with you!  :)

These 16 temperaments of Myers and Brigg are artificial divisions.  In reality, there aren't 16 temperaments, just countless individuals with their own unique personalities.  And what I find funny is that the descriptions for the 16 temperaments could apply to anyone in different moods or at different times in their life, so that characterizing people by their temperaments resembles Astrology to a great extent with the 12 signs of the Zodiac.  Sure, you read the personality characteristics for any of the zodiac signs, and  they all sound great, and equally applicable to individuals.  My sign is Pisces, but looking at the descriptions for the other signs, it could just as well be Taurus or the Twins, or any of the other signs for that matter.   My temperament is INTJ, but this is just one facet of my personality, and so the attempt by Myers and Briggs to classify people into 1 of the 16 temperaments can't be taken all that seriously, but it can be fun, like Astrology!

take care,
Shawn

it Is fun.. why didn't I try this before?
According to the Temperament Sorter Results at halverson-law.com and another site-  I am an INTP

---- "A Love Of Problem Solving" ---------- (The Nerd)

General Descriptions of INTPs (RATIONALS/ Architect)
----------------------------------------------------

-Tend to see distinctions and inconsitences in thought and language
-Detect contratictions in statements
-Only statements that are logical and coherent carry weight
-External authority per se is irrelevant
-Prize intelligence
-Intellectual dilettantes
-Obsessed with analysis
-May show impatience at times with others less endowed intellectually
-Arrogant.
-Should not be asked to work out the implementation or applicaton of their models
-They may have difficulty expressing their emotions verbally
-Are very adaptable until one of their principles is violated
-INTP architect
-Reluctance to state the obvious
-Questions everything and bases answers on laws and principles.
-An excellent decision maker and can be counted on to remember and to honor decision.
-"Portrait painter of ideas"
-Imaginative
-Responsive to whatever new date presend themselves
-Make a coherent whole out of an endlessly profilerating amount of date
-All thoughts, ideas and plans, however final they seem, are subject to last-minute changes when "new date", from either internal or external influences, become available
-They are the first to knock down their own theories or correct themselves with a better word or improved idea.
-Create a plan open-ended enough to allow for improvements
-Wants to critique and improve the "rough draft"
-Once an INTP thinks a project through, he or she may lose interest in it.
-When an INTP female's feeling side does surface, it often does so with an intensity, an outpouring that can be frightening to both herself and others

Strengths
-This type may be eager to negotiate. They will study the concept of negotiations and be interested in looking at mediation and negotiating options as contrasted with litigation. They may want to know more about negotiation.
-This type will look for common values that can be shared and will apply them to disputes.
-will be good at working out facts and figures
-once agreement is reached, this type will not want to return to the subject. It's now complete (closed)
-Careful of details
-This type will look for "win-win" options- a good problem solver
-This type can handle complications until it seems to be repetious.
-Likes problem-solving
-They can handle intense negotiations

Weaknesses as negotiators
-Under stress the INTP may have pain and distress that is new and not understood. No outlet for terrible internal pain and loss. May find it difficult to meet his spouse.
-The INTP doesn't take care of himself enough - not tuned in to own personal needs. What INTP sees as fair may skip their own  personal needs.
-The INTP may become highly positional where intensely personal issues are involved or where his space is invaded.
-They need to think before deciding
-It is hard for INTPs to communicate their feelings while negotiating.
-They get lost if details are repetitious
-May have trouble concentrating on specifics
-They may have trouble coming to a final decision
-INTPs may put too many items on the agenda
-They may become hairsplitting in details

How this temparemt see themselves as Negotiators

-They are creative, logical, reasonable.
-They are accurate, tough-minded and fair.
-They seek Justice.

How others see this temperament as Negotiators

-They are seen as cold, repressed and arrogant.
-They are seen as uncaring about people

How to work positively with other types

Appreciate your ability to adapt
Appreciate your ability to be creative and insightful

---------------------------------------------------------------------
THANKS SHAWN FOR THIS SITE
I will be able to dig my mind into this self analysis
YAY!!
DISCOVERY!!!

Other interesting sites:

-Psychological Type Humor
http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/.../7781/mbti.html    
(For ex: INTPs worst habit of thinking: I'm brilliant you'd better bowe to my genius)
INTJs: (Shawn) I am-all knowing

-Personality Typing
www.legran.com/type/index.html
(detailed and interesting)

Hello Fran. Saw that you linked to my legran.com website and that you're also an INTP like me. I don't see INTPs very often and I unsubscribed from the INTP mailing list quite some time ago. For a bunch of introverts, that's one busy mailing list. I would love to have an INTPcon here in Tucson, Arizona. There is also an INTP SETI team, if you're interested. You can find it through my projects page or by searching on http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/

Morris
Business: http://www.ss-systems.com
Personal: http://www.legran.com

i agree with Anne. i also got INFJ, but i dont think anyone can be classified that easily. maybe a little barnum effect is happening here.

I love big puzzles.  Wanting to take them apart and put them back together again in an innovative way.

I have looked at the test done by Ms. Briggs-Myers (the second name was her mothers, she was one person).

She built the test based on Jung's concept of the structure of the personality.  She came through with flying colors.  She solved a delemma that was vexing.
Of course, the problem remains that this was just a baseline view of the personality that had never grown to it's full possibilities.  The failure to grow is, no one yet has come up with a structure that supercedes this model or even added to it significantly.  There have been attempts, but nothing of any consequence yet.

So, being fearless, let us take a look at some aspects of this now.  No way to even cover a portion of the territory in the posting environment.  And, this is purely my slant, not the gospel version.

Let's begin with Jung.  His view came in three waves.
First the functions: sensate, feelings, thinking, intuition.
Second the 'versions; intro and extro making eight types when multiplied.
Third, the vexation.  unconscious and conscious
How does one indicate that in a testing situation pragmatically?  Ms. Briggs-Myers converted this to perceiving (conscious, I believe) and judgemental (unconscious-driven by habit patterns already formed in the unconscious).  She solved the problem of making sixteen types of personalities measureable, but created another problem in her wake by making the unconscious/conscious designation moot.

I know how to solve this delemma as fall out from some other research I have been conducting.  There are many more personality types as many have intuited because the structure of the personality is more complex than Jung brought into being almost a century ago.  Jung was a genius and I am indebted to him for opening the door, it is time now to build on his pioneering work.  Someone has to stand on his shoulders and look at a more distant horizon, that is the way research and science works.  He did say with great humor: "Thank god I am not a Jungian".  I am not going to do this research and would collaborate with someone with an affinity for the work.

I've heard it said that Jung was a mystic who spoke thru the medium of psychology.  Reading his more esoteric works, such as Aeon, I'm struck by his alchemical and religious inclinations, which remind me very much of Isaac Newton's alchemical and religious writings, which vastly outnumbered his scientific and mathematical writings.  To what extent was Newton a mystic trying to communicate thru the medium of mathematics and physics?

It's certain that a science of mysticism will have to be devised in the near future, one founded on neuroscience and confirmed thru experience.

The previous talk about temperaments is not any kind of interest to me. Seems like you guys are accustomed to that kind of knowledge and the way of looking at your selves from the intellectual side of things. Let me ask you a question, what is the point of studying and understanding the little self and the limited mind with its hugely limited perception? Wouldn't it be vastly more exciting to go beyond all boundaries. To know experientally who you are at the very core of your soul. To realise the infinite immortal status that is our inherent birthright as human beings.

Somewhere in this site I read about experiencing the death of ego. is there anyone here who has experienced that and could say something about it?

a link on this site about ego death:  http://brainmeta.com/index.php?p=expandconsciousness

Shawn,  Exactly right.  Jung was a mystic and tried to clothe that mysticism with the cloak of science.  he did not want to be perceived as a Steiner, for instance.
This was his complex, his works are a difficult  read for this reason.  Instead of seperating both out and letting them stand alone, he tried to substituted one world for the other.  We do indeed need a mystical science, but with the mysticism removed.

Carpenter,  We have to hold both worlds simultaneously in consciousness.
The physical world in which we reside and our five senses oriented towards.  To live exclusively in this world is to be practical, pragmatic and lopsided.
and
The world to which you allude, the mystical domain of understanding beyond the borders of the first world.  To live exclusively in this world is to be saintly, esoteric and detached.  Also lopsided.
It is necessary to fashion a bridge between the two worlds, standing with a foot planted firmly in each.  This is the place of wholeness and balance.

The ego is a small computer in our system, it preforms the function of getting what we must have to exist in the physical world.  Right now, its programming is to be both the general in charge of strategy and then it switches hats to be the general in charge of tactics.  It worries us to death in trying to accomplich both tasks.  To kill it is to shoot your arms off, metaphorically speaking.  The job is to find a way to deprogram it and replace the program with some other one that works more  efficiently.   Right now that program exists.  It is in the hands of people that formed a religion around it, distorting the meaning it conveys.  We need to strip away the superstitious wrappings put around these instructions that paralyze them from being put into use by terming them instructions from God, and put them into this world.  The Romans and priests did the world a great disservice by distorting these instructions and turning them into an instrument of power and control.  They did this by taking teachings by Jesus of Nazereth and turning him into Jesus of the Christ-a Greek name meaning the annointed one not the Aramaic one he was given.  They moved the religion fifteen hundred miles away to Rome in the change from its bithplace.  There are about two dozen other cultures spread through out history and geography where similar action happened.  The answer to your question is answered by a true secular examination of the symbols of Christianity without the Church/Roman overlay.  We are in the early days of this transition to a new model of Seeing the world.

Yes a deprogramming is needed for sure. But what is the new program? From my point of view that is absolute surrender to the holy spirit and god dwelling in all of us. God is running the show and always has. Ego has its own illusions and dreams about its power and control but they are merely dreams. when the veil falls off the only thing that is left is Reality. One that is shared by all instead of projected from the mind as is the case with most of the people on this planet at thisparticular time

And I absolutely agree. we are to walk in both worlds simultaneuosly since in consciousness there is ultimately no difference. God is forever present both on the inside and on the outside. we are manifesting a completely new way of living in this world. Every single one of us. we may perceive it differently as long as we are chained into what our perceptions tell us. In consciousness we can live beyond perceptions and become the seer of reality. Mind cannot do that.

that's a very interesting response, synchronox.  I whole-heartedly agree with it, particularly about stripping away superstitious wrappings around reprogramming techniques, and also what you said about fashioning a bridge between the two worlds (of the mystical and everyday/pragmatic), standing with a foot planted firmly in each, at least for our present day and age (who knows post-Singularity?).

I think I now see where you're coming from, Carpenter.  The thing is, while it's certainly possible for more or less anyone to have a mystic/transcendental experience, such states of consciousness cannot be maintained indefinitely, and further, states of consciousness are relative so that there are higher, more transcendent states of consciousness that what anyone has ever experienced in the past.  And so, we need to be involved in everyday/pragmatic life, at the very least because one wishes to attain to even greater transcendent states of consciousness and soon realizes that the most promising way to do this is by launching a full-scale intellectual/scientific attack on the brain to decipher its organization and allow us to modify it in order to enable us to attain to higher mystical heights than what has yet been experienced in all times past  (hence, the necessity of getting involved in the everyday/pragmatic life).  

Ok, I'll take this up again, soon.

namaste,
Shawn

p.s., thank you for the link, asdf.  It's true that I talk about ego death a little, though much more could be said about it.  Not right now, though  :)

Thanks Shawn.
Carpenter:  If you would read the dream analysis string first so I wouldn't have to redo it here.  I know where you are coming from and have fought the battle.  I'm willing to share information, but very gently as I do not wish to disturb anyone's faith basis.  I don't wish to argue either as I can't change any else's judgements 'cept my own.  If you would like, I have done extensive research into the Christian phenomena and find it to be the visionary statements of someone going through the dream process in order to upscale consciousness.  Since I am too ignorant of a God and his ways I have to stick to my next step so maybe I'll be better able to understand who he might be rather than take some one else's word for it.
Best to you,
John