I wanted to present my thoughts and feelings on why I feel the Pentagram represents something a lot more than Satanism and geometry. Why was the Pentagram so revered, then torn from its pedestal.

A little background
===================
The geometrical symbol has been used in several forms throughout history beginning in 3000 BC, until it was eventually associated with satan and leviathon (The great mythical serpent deity/demon) sometime in the 20th century.

The religious use of this shape, and its subsequent defiling by wester patriachal religion, is very important to
re-establishing our links to nature and its mathematically inspired roots. The pentagram is currently used in neo-pagan and wicca as a symbol of the Great Horned Goddess (the essence of life) and she was worshipped in conjunction with the seasons and the fruit of nature. This Goddess worship embodied the concepts of male/female duality in the horns, but I digress as there are many other sites dedicated to the Goddess. The important point is the symbol was used to represent the flowers blooming, the fruit ripening, our childrens birth and of general Health and Happiness. A similar motif is found in mans first artistic pottery - the statues of Venus (the Goddess).

Pythagoreans
============
The Pythagorean era came about from the discovery of mathematical concepts within nature, and the relationship between nature and geometry. They thought the Universe was built on nice whole integers, but they were in for a shock with the discovery of irrational numbers like Pi (3.14...) and the Golden Ratio (1.618...)

The work done by the Pythagoreans within the field of mathematics has resonated throughout humanity, but not many know their biggest secret was these irrational numbers. To protect the secret they would put 'loose tongued' colleagues to death. <b>To enter their secret society you had to be capable of drawing a perfect pentagon containing a pentagram.</b> But why this symbol?

The actual form itself is created by simply joining each of the 5 points of a pentagon to every other point, a mirroring of lifes own tendency to form groups and relationships. The pentagram is created containing a new inverted pentagon, which means the process can continue on forever and ever and ever...Amen

One of their most important geometrical discoveries was the Golden Ratio (Phi). They believed it represented some natural force of beauty in the natural world. This ratio is absolutely embodied within the pentagram, as the following image highlights:


Red/Green = Green/Blue = Blue/Magenta = Phi

The ancients were all philosophers, thats what happens when your minds bored They thought about the concept of beauty, good and evil and many other things. They discovered mathematical beauty in structures and mathematical harmony in music. They also believed the relationship between mathematics and the Universe to be visible in geometry. Could the Pentagram contain any more religious symbolism for the Pythagoreans? Was this the reason another religious cult sprang up where their only mantra was saying the word 'Pente' (5) over and over?

Fibonacci, Hindu and Buddhism
=============================

There is another mathematical method that reached western minds 100 years after was first discovered from Indian Holy men (Religious mathematicians). The famous Fibonacci sequence shown to the mainstream cinema goers in the DaVinci code. The sequence is simple - the sum of the last two sequence numbers: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34 etc. The divine thing about these numbers is they too embody the Golden Ratio (Phi, 1.618...). If you take a number in the sequence and divide it by the previous number, you get a loose approximation to the magical Phi ratio 1.618. The higher you go in the sequence (eg. 89/55 = 1.61818188), the more closely you approximate Phi!

The numbers can also be laid out geometrically to form a familiar spiral:

Hindus believe the first incarnation of Vishnu (Mother Earth) was in the form of an ammonite (spiral shaped fossils), and they rever these fossils so much they won't touch them unless they have been ritually cleansed. Obviously the nature of the spiral was understood in its entirety in earlier history. The internal angles derived from a pentagon are 36, 72 and 108. The number 108 is especially revered in India and China, with a bell being rung 108 times at new year, chanting mantras 108 times, saying prayer to the sun 108 times, the mala bracelets having 108 beads (often separated into 3 sections). Even the TV series lost has a significant part of mythology based on Eastern thoughts, the I-Ching is alluded to in the Dharma initiative symbol, and the countdown timer in the research laboratory has to be reset every 108 minutes. Its only a hook into cultural and mystical beliefs, but the reason its a hook at all is important.

Yet there is not a single piece of literature that can definately say why 108 is special. I believe it all relates back to the Pentagon and the Pentagram embodying Phi.

Where spiralling and diamond patterns in nature are observered, they are often (too often to discount) created from two opposing spirals, and these spirals are have a preference to two sequential Fibonacci numbers. Look for sunflower and phi/golden ratio/spirals (having problems linking).
To show how fractal our world really is, check out this cousin of cauli and broccoli (http://www.fourmilab.ch/images/Romanesco/):

Of course the above pessimistic approach is the best method of staying objective, but there is enough evidence around to take on the old conceptions of religion and really see the Universe is based numbers that re-occur on all levels.

Its important to state that the Pentagram, the eastern religious revering of 108, and the ancient Goddess Worship in the statues of Venus and all other identities (Isis, Mary, Aphrodite), are all related to this natural phenomenon.

Below shows the naturally formed path of Venus in our nights sky. As we orbit 8 times round the sun, the planet Venus (The morning star, Lucifer), orbits 13 times. Those are two sequential numbers in the Fibonacci sequence, and whenever that happens you are dealing with something that really is Divine.



This early spiritual belief in mathematics has been ignored and untrusted, but it has more relevance to ANYTHING any religious book can state. Its there right in front of our eyes, and its tangible. Even now many scientists and philosophers alike are talking about fractal realities and the nature of numbers. It seems like we've been deluded and misdirected from the true source of religion - experience.

This is why I believe in the Supernatural and Occult emblem - the Pentagram.
I'd love to discuss peoples feelings, comments and criticisms.

Apologies for repitition of some of my previous posts, but last time I posted I did so in the mathematics section and was torn down for believing the ratio of phi and the geometry of a pentagon is anything more than a beautiful co-incidence.

This time I simply want peoples opinions on whether an earlier form of religion, at the time we were becoming more aware and using number, was torn from the people and the meaning lost. It seems a lot of clever minds throughout history have contemplated nature and geometry, and continue to do so in advanced sciences with abstract thought. Muslims are unable to depict Allah, because that would be creating false idols, but beautiful mandala's of geometry can be substituted.

The other main contender for this earlier geometry based belief is the Hexagon. I've stated previously why this is important but I'll re-iterate:
Star of David - two interconnecting triangles, symbolised as fire and water in Alchemy. This creates the hexagonal star.
Honeycombs, snowflakes, the giants causeway.
The Hexagon formed in the pole of saturns atmosphere, constantly moving particles but keeping the form static for at least 27 years between our probes.

It seems relevant that our Gods processes are based in repeating number and that our world is fractal. If you wanted to eradicate the competing natural religions of druidry and wicca, you tear down and alter the meaning of such symbols. Allocating the upside down pentagram to Baphomet/Satan/Lucifer creates a method of altering perceptions. Maybe Enki's language matrix isn't far from the truth of things.

Goldilocks
=======

Suns distanct from Earth 1.496 exp 11 = 149,600,000,000m
Suns diameter 1.392 exp 9 = 1,392,000,000m

Earths diameter 1,2742km = 1,274,000m

Suns distance from the Earth measured in Suns diameters:
107.47(2dp) Suns diameters

Moons diameter 3,474 km = 3,474,000m

The average centre-to-centre distance from the Earth to the Moon is 384,403 km = 384,403,000m

Moons distance from the Earth measured in Moon diameters:
110.65(2dp) moon diameters.

Given the 'Goldilocks' zone for life in our solar system is extremely small compared to the possible orbital distances available, is it only co-incidence that these numbers are so close to 108 (give or take obvious fluctuations)?

This may be a step too far, but its a interesting thing to ponder.

whether your right or wrong, what difference does it make.

Not quite the response I hoped for Max. Isn't Brainmeta a forum for discussing everything from history, science and religion, biology, technology etc? If we thought 'whats the point' all the time, we'd not be conversing over an invisible net.

I am speaking specifically in context to your post. What real change occurs if you are correct or incorrect. You have a religion which has no real significance.

I don't know if I would call it a religion so much as I would call it a collection of thoughts.

The pentagram symbol has always been used as protection in occult rituals, it was almost exclusively used as the main symbol of several spiritual groups (cults, religions).

Do you know anything about 108s significance in varying religions Joesus? You seem to know a lot of scriptures and spiritual teachers. I'm genuinely interested.

I'm fairly certain the use of the symbol along with the understanding of the maths behind the Golden Ratio was a very powerful force in prehistory. Does it seem plausible?

Furthering humanities spiritual awareness for one. We are always refining our theories, shouldn't we do the same for our religions? We cling to stale information and fight over syntax, but no real unity can come from this. Shouldn't religious belief be non-dogmatic and more a sense of awe of our natural world? Wouldn't it benefit humanity if instead of religious fanatacism we had zealot like belief in ourselves, our passion and our creativity. I'm sure a school buzzing with a firm sense of life and its mysteries would be a school full of opportunities and future Einsteins.

I'd like to see the day when intelligent men can draw some conclusions without blind faith in 'miracles' that we've never seen for ourselves. Whether we're religious and are attacking aetheists, or aetheists attacking the religious, the issue will never go away. At some point everyone thinks long and hard about their place in the Universe, and quasi-religious belief, no matter how short lived, is still religious belief. There is no doubt there is a source to the process the Universe is going through, I don't tend to say God because thats not how I relate to it at all - its there in science and philosophy too!

Science argues that the spiritual does not exist, therefore one cannot increase awareness of that which does not exist.

Thus your beliefs go against conventional scientific views, which either makes your beliefs; philosophy, fringe science or theology.

You are trying to do like the evangelists do and prove their religion using science, but it never really works in the end.

I know a little. I know there are mathematical relationships in the manifestations of molecular structure.
One school of thought is that there are 108 pathways in the central nervous system that connect the chakras and nadis, but in the bigger picture of Sacred Geometry, Geometric symbols represent the creation of the manifest from the un-manifest.
Spirals are seen in the outward expansion of galaxies and have even been photographed above the heads of yogis in meditation.
I never put much thought into Sacred Geometry because it always made my head hurt.
Here is a link to some stuff on Vedic Astrology and the significance of 108. http://www.astrosoftware.com/Enlightenment.htm


I think what might be useful to consider rather than binding superstition to symbols, is that there is a scientific relationship to Spirituality.
Enlightened civilizations strove to preserve the knowledge to try to prevent the downfall of enlightenment in civilization. Even the cross had a geometric relationship to God and creation.

Well I think your being a little pessimistic about it all, or playing devils advocate for the sake of it. Just because you don't think anything good can come from examining anything remotely spiritual, doesn't mean nothing good can come from it. I'm also not trying to prove anything, I'm simply asking for an open discussion with an open mind. If you believe I'm trying to prove a religion, then please name the religion, because I'm at a loss on what it is.

Science does not have an adequate definition for life. Science does not explain the self behind the biology. Science still can't give a reason for dreams. Emotions are also not understood fully. Science has no problem making huge leaps of faith and inventing dark matter, adding cosmological constants (to make theories work), and developing theories on multiple dimensions and/or Universes.

I believe you are being unjustly negative to avoid giving the issue any serious thought. Millenia of human experience keeps creating variations on a theme, in terms of a societies Gods and Demons. Yet you assume that your current thinking is the correct one, and assumption is the mother of all fuckups. If your not willing to accept anything non-concrete then we should completely remove psychology from our Universities. While we're on it, lets stop pondering the concept of love because it isn't tangible.

What I'm suggesting is that there is a truth within history that has been covered up for the sake of dumbing it down and control of the people. It is easier to relate to a big authorative man in the sky than it is to an ongoing transformative process of a recursive and fractal nature. What I'm talking about isn't religion, its looking with an eye to lifes patterns to try and gain an insight.

Please explain what part of my original post makes you think 'religion'?

Hehe, yeah it does warp your mind trying to think about a fractal universe let alone its imagery, but no more than quantum physics and multi-verses.
This is what I'm trying to promote, that there is a truth within religion, its just we're incapable of putting our fingers on it. Thanks for the link, I'll give it a read today.

I am simply giving my opinion Trojan, the problem is not that I am not discussing this with you, but that you don't like the opinion that I hold.



You asked to discuss, im discussing, I just don't share the same viewpoint about it as you do.

If you want the full fledged dissection as to why parts of this are just useless then fine, here you go.

First off, if god is a mathematical fractal expression, then one must first ask oneself, what is God really?

If god is a fraction, and a fraction is a thing of mathematics - and mathematics is created by humans, then God is a numerical anomaly from the creation of a mental construction of the human mind.

Therefore the term God is entirely and utterly useless. If humans created math which created fractions which is what makes up God then God cannot be God in the traditional sense because you have a contradiction.

Second, if God were a mathematical fractal expression and you were to argue that it exists not in the numbers but in the fractions of the universe, first I would inform you that there is no such thing as a fraction.

A fraction, implies a fractal portion of a whole. At the deepest level there are no fractions because matter cannot be created or destroyed. You could take apart an atom and call that a fraction - however, this then raises the question of is the atom really a fraction or does the human mind perceive and think of the atom as a 1 and the separation of said atom as a fraction.

So next in the problem with your little hypothesis is that God does not exist except on paper because fractions are not real things in the universe but rather the mental construction of the human mind labeling something as 1 and any parts of that 1, when separated are expressed as fractions but not necessarily fractions in reality.

Rather they are only fractions within the capacity of the perception of the human mind and the way in which we use the representation of a number as a means of predicting and attempting to understand the reality in which we exist.

Therefore, mathematics, as a construction of the human mind, of which fractions are a part of, means that by your logic, man created god and god created man. This is a contradiction and to me just seems rather silly.

Next let us pretend for a moment that God really was a fraction and really did exist in reality and that it created man but man did not create it. Then we can find that even if this god were a fractal expression, it has no real significance.

If god is a fractal expression then it can be predicted as all mathematics must be predictable for it works off of static and consistent laws which must always remain consistent. Otherwise math would be useless.

So to sum up, it is highly unlikely that god is a fractal expression because fractions do not exist outside of the human mind and even if it did, those expressions would be predictable and thus without any god-like qualities in the traditional sense.

If you are going to look for a mathematical basis for god, at least do it in random numbers.

I hope you get my point that I'm not saying God is a fraction, I'm saying its fractal which means it creates self-similar copies - ie replicates. I understand that mathematics is a contruct of the mind - but it is the only universal language. Its based on reality and what I think most perceive as universal truths. The numbers 1 to 10 are just symbols and mean nothing, and it could also be argued 360 degrees are not relevant, but I'd argue the number was arrived at from the ancients observations and belief that everything in the Universe was nice and simple. This doesn't change the fact that processes on all levels are orbiting, spiralling, and spinning.

I've stated before I use the term God because that is what the transformative process has been labelled. Calling it something else does not change its qualities.
Ok, to clear this up once and for all, I'm not stating God is a fraction. I'm stating the process that kickstarted everything into being and eventually built enough complexity to create the human brain and self-awareness, has been working through the simplest fractal function (most efficient). Its not the numbers that are relevant, its what they're a symptom of.

You are taking what I'm saying as the actual concept, rather than the traces of that concept. Like tracks in the snow, your pointing at them and stating its not the object that made them - I know its not!

Again your whole post is against using the term fraction, or any mathematical concept, as evidence for a universal base fractal process. Numbers are a human symbol, but there is the reality that 1 is 1 and many is many. That is a biological instinct linked to survival. The symbol means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but the concepts we've come up with are always valid!

We are always looking for a theory of everything, or a new way to unite and simplify our knowledge of physical processes.

You are not discussing it, your talking about semantics more than anything.

Do you see the fractal nature of the romanesco I posted?

Does it not show nature propagating itself in a fractal way?

How does it fit into your beliefs?

Is it just an amusing object, does it not interest you into the possibility that nature itself is super efficient out of necessity?

Trojan if you do not believe god is a fractal expression then please state exactly what you think god is.

I think the term God is really all about the awe felt about our position in this universal pattern. My signature "God is a mathematical fractal expression constantly in motion, echoing through biology and history." is merely to provoke response, I am not a religious person. I apologise for sometimes using contradictory terms. If that answer is satisfactory, I really would answers to the questions I posed.

Experiencing or knowing God does not mean you have to be religious.

I had a thought once...but seriously God is not an awesome feeling, tho one can have an awesome feeling as they project images and ideas in the attempts to stretch the imagination, and to connect intuition with reason.


Then by using God so loosely doesn't mean there is any relationship of a God with what you also loosely describe as a fractal. If you really don't believe in a God then you are saying what you don't believe exists is a fractal expression constantly in motion etc. etc...

I'm tired of you pulling me up on pointless semantics. Are you just trying to make me look stupid, or is it a skill you've nurtured and cant turn off?

I'm tired of Brainmeta too.

Yeah, I feel you, Trojan. I got the same feeling You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him see it.

So you think life is meant to soothe your fantasies rather than challenge you to go beyond them?

I can't make you look stupid, but you can choose to accept that whatever makes you feel that way is not of your own doing.

Without humility one only assumes their mastery of intelligence by ignoring the details. One mans semantics are sometimes the only barrier that exists between unity of thought and understanding.
People speak sometimes making assumptions that everyone else thinks the same way they do. As such they get irritated easily when their expectations aren't met. C'est la Vie

Besides you're the one who posted a statement just to get a reaction.
Who'dathunk you'd be the one reacting..

I am only an egg....

The stifling of the idea behind the pentagram, the force of nature behind venus, the relationship between venus and earths orbital (8 and 13 orbits), the links to the Golden ratio, Venus (Light Bearer:Lucifer)drawing a pentagram in the nights sky, and Lucifer subsequently becoming a symbol of evil are ALL significant to our history.

Why is no one willing to chat about a possible overwhelming of an ancient belief system that may actually have more to do with reality than 'God'? If people here think this is simply my delusion and theres nothing interesting here, then I'd appreciate it being stated in plain English. Personally I think its arrogance which is stifling discussion. We'd be foolish not to consider every possibility for further understanding of our physical world. Why is that a delusion?

Nobody knows the trouble I see.... nobody knows but meeeeeee......

Sometimes people have their own ideas and aren't willing to play. Although sometimes people have no idea and refuse to play.

I hate when that happens...

Trojan there is just nothing to really be discussed about your post. It doesn't really raise any interesting possibilities, alls your really saying is that mathematics and the Pi ratio exist and then you throw in the word spiritual a couple of times.

I don't really know what to say about it. Mathematics, like all other things, is a way for us to understand the world around us and interpret it as we see fit. Theres nothing really spiritual about mathematics, I think there is a wonderful, creative side to mathematics which is rarely ever exposed to the general public - but while your post might be long, its ideas don't really have any implications to them.

Math is pretty generally accepted, you just referenced the Pentagram and the Golden Ratio and called it spiritual. I don't get what you want to discuss about it, if you think its spiritual - alright fine you can believe whatever religion you want.

I assure you, on Brain Meta people are extremely willing to discuss interesting things, to be bluntly honest with you, I just didn't find this idea all that interesting.

You say you believe in the Pentagram, okay - so what? You believe a geometrical formation of atoms exists in nature, whats the big deal?

I could say I believe in a circle, a circle has no beginning and no end, all points are equal and in harmony, I believe the circle represents the universe and the balance of all things that co-exist throughout the space-time continuum through the eternal harmony of perpetual bliss.

You could look at any geometrical shape and come up with a belief based off of it. If you look hard enough for things, whether they are Fibonacci sequences or the number 23, you will find them.

I just don't get it Trojan, you believe in the Pentagram? Thats like saying I believe in the square. Its just a geometrical shape, you are simply stating that you believe it exists - where is the significance and importance in all of this? Why should we discuss whether or not to believe in a geometrical object unless we are questioning the validity of geometry in itself?

It doesnt matter. Nothing I can say will help you to pull that head out of your arses. Everytime I ask a direct question, you both ignore it. So /golfclap for you both being so enlightened and 'open minded' ha. I'm leaving Brainmeta, I'm sure you'll love the peace.

Trojan I still have no idea what your question is.

I am more than happy to discuss the supernatural, however I am on the side of conventional scientific views. Does this mean that I am always right? Of course not. I will gladly listen but you can't get upset just because someone doesn't believe what you say is true. This is called DEBATING.

Just because I don't agree with what you have to say doesn't mean I don't listen to what you say. In case you haven't noticed, on BrainMeta - debates are a daily occurance. You think you've got it tough Trojan, it took me SIX MONTHS to argue the point of "truth is an opinion" before people really understood what I was talking about. I think I must have went through 8 or 9 debates before the idea really sunk in.

Your complaining about it being hard to get one unconventional idea across well, we all have had that difficulty. You think Joesus has it easy when he starts talking about his religious ideals in a mostly non-religious forum? Of course not, he does a ton of arguing and debating. That is the nature of this forum, we debate, we discuss and then we debate some more.

I think you really just want us to say "gee what a neat idea, I think thats really true" well guess what, the only place you are going to find those people who will automatically believe what you say is occult forums who believe putting a pyramid on top of their head will make them invincible and even they are skeptical of other occult beliefs.

In fact I never even said it wasn't possible, I agreed with you that pentagrams exist and asked what the big deal was - to which you called me arrogant. I WAS discussing your idea and you were the one who decided not to discuss and not to answer my questions. I told you I do not really understand where you are going with this idea, asked you to elaborate to which you proceeded to call me and Joesus arrogant.

How is it arrogant to ask questions about your ideals and ask for you to elaborate on key points that I do not understand - such as what you mean by "I believe in the Pentagram" okay... why is this significant? To me a Pentagram is a geometrical object, so I do not understand why this is significant from every other object except that it involves the golden ratio. You know, there are other objects which have the golden ratio.

So I still don't know what you think is so special about the Pentagram aside from the Fibonacci sequences, but how does this ideal affect the universe and how it works? Why would this be proof of something supernatural? Your post isn't clear enough for me to understand what implications you are talking about in reference to how this affects the world around us.

And I do not know how you define the supernatural, or why you believe mathematics to be proof of said supernatural.

Again I don't know what you're direct question is, so I cannot answer it until I know what you were asking. Please post your question again because I could not find it.

Not that I don't enjoy peace of mind regardless of what takes place on BM (Funny every time I use BM I think of bowel movement) but I'd really like to know why you expect anything from an internet audience?
Everyone has ideas, beliefs and corresponding moods just like you that seem to rule their experiences. Why do you feel like you have no other recourse than to react, express and withdraw?
I've seen alot of this here. Someone doesn't like what they experience and instead of walking away from what they don't like they rant about what is wrong with everyone else, then leave in a huff..
Some people are really attached to their surroundings and let their surrounding environment affect the way they think and feel.
Doesn't it make you feel like your no smarter than a lab rat being poked and prodded in an environment more powerful than your intellect, or your ability to comprehend reality?
Does it really settle in your mind to separate your beliefs and emotional attachments in a rage and to judge and condemn those who don't think like you?

I have no problem with freedom of expression, be it intellectual or emotional, or opinionated in belief, but I also know that beliefs change as do emotional attachments.
If I decided to leave my wife or friends every time they had a mood swing, I'd have to say I was creating the problem rather than being able to accept change, especially when I was subject to changing beliefs and feelings myself.
If I valued my friends by what they gave me I would think it pretty selfish, and also pretty hollow in that I would need to find something somewhere that I didn't believe I had within myself.

Don't you think it's amazing how so many feel the need to feed themselves with what other people have because they themselves feel incomplete with what they have within themselves?

Gives a whole new twist to the definition of a Vampire.

Question: Do you think herd animals surround themselves with like thinking animals? You know the kind that like to shop for the same clothes, converse about the same ideas and subject matter or do you think they simply surround themselves with the like of their own species because they relate to each other better than they do with other species?
Do you think herd animals have hissy fits and leave the herd because they don't like the conversation?

See those quotes ending with a '?' Those are questions...

1. Believing the supernatural was a topic title I chose because I BELIEVE the pentagram to have a spiritual idea within it.
I didn't expect to be ridiculed for a fucking topic title, but clearly you've judged the whole post based on that title!
2. I am raising the question of whether there was a wide spread quasi-religious mathematical belief that was desicrated by mainstream patriarchal religion.
YOU KNOW, THE TYPE THAT WENT AND DESTROYED INDIAN AND SOUTH-AMERICAN NATIVE SOCIETIES? Again all I get is abuse for this idea, and I'm sure its fairly straight forward.
3. Life springs from inert material as simple systems of physics lead to complex entities with complex cultures. HOW DOES THIS OCCUR?
Do we just say it does and then stop thinking about it?

Max, you posted whats the benefit of the ideas I'm putting forward...then you mention your topic 'Truth is an opinion'. How exactly does that help anyone then eh? Other than each persons views can be different - oh wow, amazingly profound...
Oh how enlightened...passing off ideas as your personal knowledge from the satanic bible now eh? Read that sentence as if its about you and you'll see it suits that purpose too. The term is psychic vampire and its the reason I'm leaving this forum. You are a high maintenance forum poster, a so-called psychic vampire. Didn't your mother teach you some manners?

OK I did, does that mean you read what I wrote as if it applied to you or is this simply a defensive maneuver to save yourself from the feeling of being attacked?
Are we being objective or are subjectively attached to some emotional state of mind and reacting from a very narrow point of reference?


Of course my mother taught me manners, but she, not being your mother, let's assume those mothers couldn't make our beliefs or the way we perceive the reality around us. They could influence us of course to a degree, but being that we have free will and a unique way of individually expressing ourselves as us, rather than our mothers, it would stand to reason we do not act in the same manner, with the same perceptions or beliefs that they did. If we did we'd be our mothers..
I guess I should ask you if you are the mirror image of your mother or if you believe you are.

Now, psychic vampirism is an interesting idea and it exists only as it is directly proportionate to what you make available that can, or could be taken from you psychically. If you believe in it, it can affect you because the belief affects your experience. like self hypnosis. Its an unfortunate delusion many carry with them in and amongst other delusions of personal belief related to superstition or intellectual stress.
In reality no one can take anything from you unless you make it available to be taken. When it comes to self esteem, or psychic energy, invariably the demon which presents itself as a threat is self created or in this case the power, or illusion of power that is given to the object of demonic identification.

If I made a statement to the effect that everyone who taxed my psychic beliefs or experiences, or my spiritual sense of reality, or my beliefs or state of mind was a psychic vampire, I'd probably be in therapy of some sort, or I would have at least alienated all but a few psychotic conspiracy theorists who might subscribe to similar delusions.
As it is just my talking about God in any form often sends some into a defensive mode or even a need to counter attack because they are thinking they themselves are under attack....go figure. I don't get too upset about it, or if I do I take responsibility for my own feelings.

If it interests you at all I do accept and believe in a spiritual relationship in the mathematical and geometrical make up of the universe as we experience it. I also believe that the relationship of mathematical or geometric formulas and foundation came after the experience of God, not before as the foundation or support of the idea of God.

There is a saying.."Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all else will be given unto you."
This represents surpassing illusions of ego for the clear mind, which created the ego to experience the clear mind.

By the way you should be interested in this recent post on brain meta.
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18863&hl=

Trojan in your post you stated "I believe in the supernatural", when you post a topic, you should expect to have questions raised. I determined your belief in the supernatural based off of your post where you stated "I believe in the supernatural" not because of your Topic Title. I just don't think you take criticism very well and instead lash out at people who do not agree with you - you would make a good dictator.

The benefit of the idea of truth is an opinion is that it allows us a greater insight into how reality works and leads to possibilities of how one might go about escaping a perpetual seeking of truth and reach a more enlightened state where one simply observes instead of objectively placing labels on everything and reaching a higher state of consciousness and awareness about the world around us. I do not claim to have reached such a state but it was a battle to get people to listen to the idea that the objective reality may not exist and instead there is no external proof to which we can REALLY objectively observe.

I do not claim to be right either, the debate about this idea never really ends, but through those debates more insights are gained. Its one of the pluses of having someone who does not agree with you - sometimes they show you things that you never would have thought of.

My answer to your first question is, this is dependent upon how you view fractals and nature doing anything. The geometrical formation of fractals as in the way in which atoms form in nature could be seen as having fractal properties. This is a wierd question because what you are really asking is, do fractals exist in nature?

Yes if you are referring to the way in which atoms form we can find fractal like properties in nature. Not quite sure where you are going with this question but essentially yes geometry exists and fractals are simply the observation of a way in which a structure can form.

To your second question, it does not fit into my beliefs because I do not believe the pentagram has supernatural qualities.

To the third question, nature does not engage in cognition. Efficiency is first a question of goals - nature does not have a goal and therefore cannot be efficient in achieving a goal which it does not have. If you are specifically referencing to nature as biology then the answer would be yes because cells have a goal built into their genetic code which is survival. In order to create organisms more likely to survive, they must be efficient, it is indeed survival of the fittest.

However, if your definition of nature is not specifically in reference to biology then my answer is no. In order to be efficient one must first have a goal or result to be efficient at achieving, since nature does not 'think' so far as we know, one can presume any efficient like occurance's are more so a matter of the mind distorting reality and thinking that nature is efficient at something because it happens to follow a process that leads to an end result that we find significant in a efficient way.

The problem with that is the same event can be seen as both highly efficient or inefficient depending on what you believe nature is trying to accomplish. In order to be efficient at one thing, one must often sacrifice efficiency for other things, thus efficiency is determined by the level of perfection in attempting to achieve an end result, but when you are trying to examine the efficiency of something that does not try to achieve end results but instead simply reacts then it is simply the mind of the viewer which determines whether or not something is efficient based off of their own perceptions.



Science has yet to reach a consensus about the origins of life, however there are many good theories.

There is the idea of chemosynthesis. Basically it is the idea that atmospheric conditions and a variety of other biochemical conditions resulted in the formation of basic life forms. This was demonstrated to occur in the Miller experiments, however it is still controversial whether or not the experiment accurately mimics the conditions on earth at the time.

There are really a number of different theories and it would take me a long time to go over all of them in-depth, I recommend you look into the field of Abiogenesis - which is essentially the study of the origins of life.

Also you have not answered my question of what is the significance of the idea that the Pentagram has spiritual ideas in it.

You clearly stated that you believe supernatural things to exist and went on a tangent about the pentagram, thus my question is perfectly valid as to why you believe such things. I see no reason why mathematics or the occurance of the golden ratio should be used as evidence that the geometrical shape known as the Pentagram contains spiritual properties.

There have been many human societies that at one point believed the Pentagram to hold such properties however simply because a religion is based around something does not mean that due to mathematical phenomenon occuring around said geometrical shape that it should be used as evidence for the belief in the ideals that the religion has based itself around.

Simply put, just because there have been religious beliefs about the Pentagram and that a few mathematical properties happen to occur which involve this shape - does not make these religious beliefs valid.

In regards to your questions about history of religion and smaller religions being oppressed by larger more mainstream ones, I do not make it a point to learn that much about theology. Most of my interests in religion are in the philosophical or moral ideas they convey - I do not really study history of religions so I can't provide much of an answer for that question.

Yes I did read it like that, otherwise it has little relevance to anything previously posted. The concept of psychic vampires can be applied to anyone who ever seeks confirmation of their existence/beliefs/love etc. A simpler way to state it is 'you wear me out'.
See, all that nitpicking was a waste of time and energy for all parties. I know what your saying - the geometrical make up of the Universe is not the source of the Universe, only a path the 'source' uses. I do acknowledge this, but when something is hidden from view and only the tracks can be seen, its sometimes easier to imagine the track being the object of focus.

As for the topic on Pineal symbology, DMT, etc. I agreed with quite a lot of what was said, up until he started talking about Stargate chairs and Project Looking Glass (building a psychic pineal machine). I also understand how easy it is to become totally enthralled in a delusion, which I think is probably the reason you posted this link. I allow myself to think outside of the box on a lot of issues, but I am careful not to take philosophy into 'tin foil hat' territory.


The first sentence kind of sums up the post, however much of a tangent I may have gone on.

I don't take this specific criticism very well no, because I think I was clear enough to avoid to some of the nit picking. I actually think comparing me to a dictator is bitchy, childish and rude to be honest.
I am all for that, but saying a pentagon is just a shape doesn't come close to taking what I said in context.
You're still using the term 'supernatural qualities' instead of 'spiritual ideas'.

Efficiency can also be a set of boundaries that nature has to work within. Like the shape of a bubble, it has to be spherical because this gives an even surface tension. It doesn't mean that the bubble has a goal, likewise neither do the laws of nature.
I disagree here. The survival instinct of biological entities has came about through an evolving process, and this process had a seed within the innert material and processes of the Universe. All our technologies have been created to make things more efficient, and businesses (a group entity) have exactly the same ideals, efficiency = money. This is one aspect I feel is the easiest to see throughout all levels of reality.
Life is efficient at evolving into niches, taking advantage of seasonal changes, animal visitors carrying its seed etc. An example I saw yesterday on 'The Life of Plants':

A seed from a tree shaped like a pentagonal grapefruit is dropped onto the forest floor where it lies dormant until the rain (which can be several months away). When it rains the seed splits and opens up (not unlike the eggs on Alien). The sides curl back out of the way of the delicate centre which looks like a nice round marshmallow with a hole in the top. The rain hits this centre and the force of it propells a fine dust of seeds out. This plant has evolved to make use of the seasonal rain and its energy. It is highly efficient at what it does, but I can't turn around and say it has a goal. Lifes goal is (in most cases) to survive or exist.

If you can't see the relationship between the spiral of Phi and the pentagram, then you really shouldn't have bothered posting in the first place. Did you even read past the word 'supernatural'?

http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/fossils/ammonite.htm
The spiral shape forms because its self-balancing, efficient, and could be seen to be pulled towards its own centre by its own gravity. Everything spinning on a micro and macro level should also have spiritual ramifications.
Then we agree there have been many different societies using the pentagram as a symbol of their belief - which is the main basis of my post.
Correct, but it makes a lot more sense than the belief in a compassionate or vengeful man in the sky. It could also be the key to some real knowledge about the origin of everything.
Surely you know about the conquistadors and spanish inquisition and the subsequent suppression of South American native religion? You've also heard of the Salem witch trials and other competing religions being persecuted and associated with the occult? There was also suppression of the people of the Indus Valley. So the historical aspect of it is very well documented.

Lastly, I apologise for losing my rag, I do get annoyed at times when posts have little to do with the subject and feel more like poking fun for the hell of it. Thank you both for discussing the points you feel are important.

I think that life is not necessarily about survival but about natural process. Fear often creates the feeling of necessity or of a thought about self preservation but if mortality is normal then death is nothing to fear and the universe is just as happy about growth as it is in moving toward an inevitable death.
Spirituality tho has nothing to do with death as a finite reality but an experience created from the potential. If there is an intelligent force that survives the experiences created by itself it is witnessing both the process of life and death and it of itself is not being absorbed in the experience. This is the nature of spiritual teachings of both the east and the west. The spirit in life is always witnessing, as change happens life transforms into death and death makes room for new life ad infinitum...
Those spiritual teachers and teachings of which I have objectively and sometimes subjectively approached all originate from a point of observation and experience of being the observer witnessing what is being observed of the Self and what is either realized as separate from the observer or connected to the observer. Once the awareness moves beyond the duality of being separated from what the witnesser observes, to being one with what is being witnessed, it is easy to take responsibility for ones reflection.
This is what Unity is or what Jesus meant when he said "I and my Father are one."

For me personally I watch you struggle with the idea that life comes at you rather than it being a part of your purpose.
What wears you out is that you resist your own self rather than accepting it as a natural part of yourself.
Not understanding unity one often thinks that acceptance means liking something and that is not the case, people who wish to move beyond judgments believe they must like everything, rather than understand their judgment and ascend it through the expansion of the intellect.

Judgment can be of two different kinds of action. One can be habitual due to internal programs of likes and dislikes created through fear and past experiences of stress related memories and beliefs. Judgment described by the Buddha as the Middle Way is clear discernment in recognizing illusion from reality and the ability to clearly separate duality from union so that one can maintain a clear intellect as well as a constantly expanding awareness that is not burdened with attachments to what is naturally transitory.
The human life is one of those transitory vehicles of expression which when seen and observed correctly reveals the immortal intelligence behind it. Religions are built from the foundation of experiencing the immortal Self behind the transitory self. Those who share their experiences of it are heard by many who in their own experience of duality try to fit something they do not experience into what they can comprehend and believe.
The ego then argues for its own opinion, and often gets worn out defending it against any intrusion that may seem to poke at it or weaken it. Clinging tightly to ones beliefs takes a tremendous amount of energy and creates in the human nervous system a great deal of stress which also creates sickness, aging and even death.

I'm happy to see you have worked through the rag and hope to see that you have gained something from the experience rather than lost anything by it.
Always better to look at the cup as being half full rather than half empty.

I appreciate the advice, but I lost my patience because people came in this topic with nothing to add except 'so what'. With peoples reluctance to post anything to do with the original topic, its clear this thread has also been derailed.

I'll be taking an extended break from brainmeta, hopefully it'll fill up with some bright open minds and break out of this stale cycle /sigh.

Trojan you were the one who was whining that no one was posting. I told you why I wasn't bothering to post and then you decided to go all dictator on the topic.

In reality, you are pissed off because we didn't say what you wanted to hear or do what you wanted us to do. I answered your questions nicely and thoroughly and yet you are still complaining.

The truth is you wanted us to agree with you and because we didn't you are calling us stupid.

No Max, its because you refuse to discuss 'supernatural' topics or anything remotely religious, this then blinds you so you can't see anything but your own dogma. You came to poke fun at the topic. Mighty grown up of you. I actually don't want self-confirmation by you or anyone else, I actually want examples of why the Universe is NOT fractal. Your reply of 'so what', 'geometry is geometry' and 'theres nothing supernatural about a pentagon' all show how much contempt you have for the topic.

If you read the New Scientist, there was an article in there about re-evaluating the shape of the Universe. It details how scientists are coming back around to the 'dodecahedron' shape, because they measured cosmic microwave background from one small area of the Universe then did the same for the opposite 'side' of the Universe. They found the measurements to be exactly the same, but rotated 36 degrees. This is to be expected if the translation was due to a geometry of a dodecahedron and also means that travelling out of the edge of the Universe would bring you back into the Universe at the opposite side (wrap around universe).

These are respected scientific research projects with peer-reviewed results. Would you say 'so what' to their work? Do you think they're wasting their time?
You didn't say anything useful. Yey you.

Actually alot of people do say so what, even to mainstream scientific research.

If you haven't noticed Trojan, I have been talking about enlightenment with Joesus. Which completely negates your claims that I am not willing to talk about religious things, when I have been having an indepth discussion about something very religious with Joesus.

You were claiming that the pentagram was supernatural, I do not think the pentagram is supernatural. Now, you are calling me dogmatic simply because I do not agree with your totalitarian views which attacks anyone who dares to disagree with you?

If you think the pentagram has supernatural qualities, then prove it! You would get the same response from any rational person. You expect me to just say "Oh Trojan says that the pentagram is supernatural, therefore it must be supernatural".

Screw you and your religious dogma. I will not be pushed into accepting your beliefs through your personal attacks on my character simply because I do not agree with you and your theories. If you have claims, then state them and prove them. I absolutely will not blindly accept what you say simply because you try to bully me into acceptance - if you have claims then you should support those claims.

If I were to walk into a physics class in university and start claiming that the universe is circular and when one reaches the end of the universe gravitational forces cause what appears to be going in a straight line but is in actuality causing you to revert back into the previous direction from whence you came - they would expect for me to provide proof strong enough to negate mainstream theories and a detailed elaboration of the theory.

When scientists are applying to get funding for research, they do not simply state their theories - they expand upon them and emphasize the significance of their research and how it is going to affect society. The question so what? Is a question a lot of people have to answer and expand upon the significance of their research and why it is important.

I was asking, why is this theory important and how will it affect us? Instead, without any answer you decided to lash out at me as a way of diverting attention from the real question.

IF THE PENTAGRAM IS SUPERNATURAL, PROVE IT!

First you say the pentagram is supernatural. Then you say the pentagram has supernatural properties.

First you say that god is a fractal expression. Then you say that you meerly stated that as a way of stimulating response.

Next I assume you will change your theory again as a way to weasel yourself out of admitting your theory was littered with logical contractions and doesn't really make much sense. You believe in the supernatural, what do you define as supernatural and what proof do you have that it exists?

Your complaining about me not carrying on this discussion but your the one who keeps going back to insulting me and this forum instead of talking about the issues I am bringing forth. If you sincerely want to discuss this then answer my questions.

What do you define as the supernatural?

What proof do you have that the supernatural exists?

How does geometry play into your definition of the supernatural?

Getting riled now Max? Its catching aint it. You claimed I called you and Joe stupid, which I denied. END OF DISCUSSION ON MUD SLINGING.

Its not a theory, its an untestable hypothesis. I have not attacked your character, I have simply responded to your posts. If you think otherwise, tough. Oh, fuck you for saying screw you. I like the naughtier words myself.

Erm...this is the philosophy section of Brainmeta... Can you prove whether a Chicken or Egg came first? The sound of one hand clapping? lol, honestly the idea I should support claims I'm making about the evolving path of nature having mathematical tendencies to certain perfect geometrical shapes is ridiculous. I've already given many many examples on BrainMeta of geometry within nature and you refuse to comment seriously. The whole point of my original post was of this.

WHAT ABOUT THE FUCKING HUGE HEXAGONAL SHAPE IN SATURNS POLAR ATMOSPHERE?
Sorry, planetary geometry and cymatics are too much like circumstantial evidence for you I guess. Comment on it, show me how you integrate it into your scientific view.

Hexagons are not spiritual. Pentagons are not spiritual. The process thats producing them as symptoms IS!


FFS... are you blind or simple?
Did you not read that I used the word 'supernatural' as a nod to the context of my post which included the pentagrams within occult practises? Do you always take metaphor and fiction as ammo for an argument? Really, take a step back and look at the way you've responded.

Fuck you Max. I've explained my reasons for the choice of words enough and yet you still keep hanging on to the word 'supernatural' which was used twice in my original post, and in both those cases the word was NOT used to say that the pentagon is magical.

Show me the logical contradictions.

I dont believe in the supernatural! lol, you really missed the boat didn't you. I believe in the same forces as those who used the pentagram in their belief systems. Those that have then been labelled 'occult' and given a supernatural mystery to them which culture then feeds off.

If I had to give a definition, its simply the physics of the natural world that we do not yet understand.

Seriously, you brought it on yourself for nitpicking metaphors in a philosophy forum. Also, how do you insult a forum? There are very few regulars on Brainmeta, because the atmosphere is hostile and shit.

Irrelevant.
I wont answer this again because I don't feed trolls.

Sheesh...
Well I feel better.
It's always good to get what's under your skin out before you actually get serious about having a conversation.
But it's also good to let it go rather than let it consume you.

You know what Trojan, I told you that I did not get certain parts of your hypothesis as the words used can be interpreted in many ways - and every time I misinterpreted something I got one of those smart ass remarks from you.

I had a number of ideas about this hypothesis but I really don't want to bring them forward because I think you are far to angry at me for asking what is the significance of your hypothesis. There are a number of questions I have to ask, but I have decided not to ask them because you answer my questions in a very cynical, demeaning and insulting manner. Look back at my post, I really put effort into answering the questions you posed and did so without loading it with insults. I would had hoped you could have done the same.

At this time, I think having a rational and intelligent discussion with you is not possible as you seem to still be very angry at me for my initial remarks.

I think its best if I cease discussing this topic for now because I think we are both going to say stupid things if this is allowed to continue and escalate.

I thought it was the pyramid that was supernatural. I used to know a guy who believed that keeping his razor in a pyramid aligned with north kept it sharp. Another guy I knew built a pyramid tree house to sleep in. Can we reconcile the pyramid with the pentagram?

Supernatural, supernatural, supernatural - of course I get annoyed at this repetition.

I'm sorry but I found your hang-up on the word supernatural cynical, demeaning and insulting too. If you had questions and real information to share, why on earth would you keep asking me to explain my use of 'supernatural'? To bait me it seems. A deity is somewhat supernatural, occult rituals are likewise supernatural, did there really need to be all of this bullshit? I am still extremely interested in genuine questions and comments, and despite what you feel, your 'grounded' opinion. I just feel the content of my post is extremely challenging to most peoples mindsets that they immediately go on the defensive.
Several of your posts have been amended after the response so thats difficult. I still find posters use of the word 'Supernatural' demeaning, and get the impression theres a big smirk on peoples faces as they make fun (See Ricks comment above).
Not at all. I just refuse to stand by and be ridiculed for little reason other than entertainment. I am perfectly capable of returning to neutral.
Good call, and hopefully you will come and share your real feelings and insight at some point.

I do realise my original post is jumping around in science, philosophy, mathematics and a whole host of different areas. There is so much history permeating our lives to do with this old belief I find it difficult to stay on topic.


All I am really saying is that maybe there is a reason why the evolution of the most complex lifeform we've ever come across, ie us, have biology that expresses a repeating pattern of five. Body - 2 legs, 2 arms and torso/head. Then at the end of the extremities we have five digits. Maybe the fifth extremity to repeat the pattern is within consciousness. Maybe the spiral growth at the crown of the head is relevant. Yes, I'm aware how it sounds, but its something else to throw into the mix.

If anyone still wants to discuss anything, it may be better to stick with one area at a time (ie mathematics, philosophy, religious use, language, culture etc.).

@Rick - That myth was busted on the popular Myth Busters show. I don't believe anything literally supernatural can occur with geometry. Shall I take the tin-foil hat off my head people seem to be placing on it?