Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Neuroevolution in humans
BrainMeta.com Forum > Science > Neuroscience
CuriousFreshman
Hi all. I'm a cornell freshman and I want to do an article paper on neuroevolution for a science journal in the university. I have barely any knowledge of the matter so help would be greatly appreciated!

I'm not sure how credible this claim is, but a general gist of it can be summed up in this small segment of the movie waking life:

QUOTE
it took roughly 2 billion years for life for occur
100,000 years for our evolved hominoid
about 10,000 for our conciousness
400 years for our society to evolve (agriculture, scientific revolutions, etc.)

looking at the nature of this evolutionary paradigm
its evident that we should be seeing this NEW evolution manifest itself
IN OUR LIFETIME
a NEW evolution
not the old, sterile, efficient way of evolution
but a new evolution of SELF
that stems from two types of information
digital and analog.

++++the digital being artificial intelligence

++++the analog being electro biology (the cloning of the organism)

and you link thedr two together with neurobiology.



in the old evolutionary paradigm
one organism would conquer the other
one would live, while the other would die off

but in the NEW evolutionary paradigm we would all exist as a mutually supportive grouping.

evolution now becomes an individual centered process, eminating from the needs and desires from the individual and not an external process, a passive process.

now imagine a neo human with a new individuality+
a new conciousness
this is only the begining of the new evolutionary cycle
because as the next cycle proceeds
the input is now this new intelligence
as intelligence pawns on intelligence
as ability pawns on ability
the speed changes
until what???

you reach a crescendo!
in a way, it could be imagined as an instantaneous fulfullment of human, and neo human potential.

it could be something totally different
it could be the amplification of the individual!
the multiplication of multiple existences!
parallell existences
now that the individual is not restricted by time and space.

these manifestations of neo humans COULD also be dramatically counter+intuitive.

these manifestations will be those of social adaptation:

parasitism, dominance, morality, war!!

These will be subject to deemphasis!
these will be subject to DeEVOLUTION!!

The new evolutionary paragidm will give us traits of truth, loyalty, justice, freedom, and this is what i hope to see.


the link: since i can't post links yet just go to youtube and type in neohuman waking life if you want to see the clip on it
_______________

supposedly the rate of darwinian evolutionary change will grow so fast that the QUALITIVE aspect of it changes in that instead of beneficial individuals, it benefits groups of the same species. as absurd as it sounds, aren't there facets of our civilization that exactly mirror this kind of 'neo-evolution'? can't it just be computational demands that arised from organisms living in more and more complex organizations?

What I'm wondering about, is that if there are any research on neuroevolution that backs up the claim that humans are growing out of darwinian evolution and into "neo-humans"? Maybe the judicial courts have some doing in that, perhaps weeding out the primitive aggressive traits that has been so prized in our biological lifetime for "truth, loyalty, justice, freedom"?

I want to do a paper on neuroevolution and how it distinguishes us from say, primates and other mammals, and i'm wondering if you guys have any links to modern research that supports the claim. Thank you so much!

thanks a bunch! smile.gif
lucid_dream
note the references to "a new evolution of SELF" and "evolution now becomes an individual centered process", which is quite different from your interpretation in terms of Darwinism or group selection. Further, the person you quote above seems to be conflating the term "evolution" to include personal growth and empowerment, and there seems little point to this conflation when just using the terms personal growth and empowerment would suffice. I know many speak of evolution of consciousness, but this is admittedly somewhat sloppy language because 1) it implies some process of natural selection and Darwinism, and 2) because it is often meant to imply some progressive development, which biological evolution does not necessarily imply. On the other hand, it's proper to speak of the 'evolution' of physical systems, with it understood that Darwinism is not being implied, so speaking of the evolution of consciousness in this regard, as akin to the evolution of a physical system, would be apt, but would not convey any sort of progressive development. Maybe it makes more sense to speak of the progressive development of consciousness, instead of the evolution of consciousness, though this doesn't sound as euphonious.

In any event, the digital and analog discussion is nonsense. There is no AI, nor is it clear there will be in the foreseeable future, or that it will necessarily be digital. There are analog computers. Even digital computers are comprised of analog physical systems. So this idea that digital and analog will lead to a new creation of Self is purely speculative fluff.

CuriousFreshman
yea. it was more of a springboard. but are there research that actually states that the impetus for neuroevolution and the dramatic increase in brain size isn't due to a 'Machiavellian' intent (or 'selfish' in this sense) ?
lucid_dream
you're asking if selfish intent resulted in a dramatic increase in brain size? Are you kidding?
maximus242
Remember Lucid, he knows essentially nothing about neuroscience..
lucid_dream
I meant that most, if not all, living things act from and are motivated by self interest, and so it's fairly obvious this was naturally selected very early in the origin of life, and has been selected throughout evolution, as any animal not acting primarily from self interest would be at a disadvantage compared to other animals that did. The rationale for linking this to a dramatic increase in brain size isn't obvious, as the vast majority of living species do not have large brains and yet act out of self interest; so what is the reasoning behind thinking that merely acting out of self interest, which arguably all living things do, would lead to dramatically greater brain size? The suggestion that they are linked doesn't make much sense.
Rick
Species survive to evolve because the individuals that make up the species survive. Some species are more social than others. In social species, such as chimpanzees and humans, altruism has evolved along with pure self-interest. Social species sometimes have an evolutionary advantage because the social system works efficiently to promote the general welfare of all the individuals.

People have a range of altruism versus self-interest. People without any altruism at all are unable to empathize with others. These people are sometimes labeled sociopaths, and make up a disproportionate part of the prison population.

People with a little bit of altruism but lots of greed we call Republicans.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 11, 2007, 11:06 AM) *
People have a range of altruism versus self-interest. People without any altruism at all are unable to empathize with others. These people are sometimes labeled sociopaths, and make up a disproportionate part of the prison population.


We can debate night and day whether there's genuine altruism or whether it belies self-interest. The point I was making was that self-interest (which encompasses much or all of what you refer to as altruism) motivates, more or less, all animal behavior. In every animal, there is generally a strong drive towards self-preservation, and this manifests as behavior that is founded on self-interest. Altruistic behaviors can be interpreted within this framework, though I understand that this general notion of 'self-interest' can cause confusion for some who more narrowly define the term.
Rick
The current issue of Scientific American describes some research with humans and primates that illustrates humans' superior sense of fairness. I suppose one could say fairness is in one's self interest. However, like altruism, there is a range of fairness in people. Some people play fair all the time and others cheat. Extreme cheating can result in jail time, so I suppose that would be a non-adaptive trait (to the extent that society works well).

See also:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...story?track=rss
CuriousFreshman
that's not really what i meant. the majority of the scientific community agrees on that the neocortex dramatically increased in size during the past ... 1.5 mil years was because of gorilla's/chimp's/etc's complex social organizations (ie. there are correlations in pair bonding relationships and brain:body mass ratio). And most agree that the brain grew bigger to manipulate, deceive, and ultimately extract as much resources from the social organization as possible for its individual good - machiavellian intelligence. of course evolution has always been acting on the benefit of the individual - in this case the brain increased in size as a result of that.

what puzzles me is that there are many instances of altruism in complex social organizations, especially in humans. why is it there? it doesn't benefit the organism itself, but rather the reproductive fitness of others, or of the group. this tends to go against the whole machiavellian theory neocortex size increase. thus, could you make the argument that our brains evolved not out of an immediate selfish desire of extracting resources from a group to benefit oneself, but rather to make a longterm investment to help the group in order to benefit onself?

are there research supporting this claim?
lucid_dream
QUOTE(CuriousFreshman @ Oct 11, 2007, 12:15 PM) *
of course evolution has always been acting on the benefit of the individual - in this case the brain increased in size as a result of that.

you mean evolution acts with a purpose? Sounds teleological.
CuriousFreshman
no, i was correcting what you thought my argument what :
QUOTE
you're asking if selfish intent resulted in a dramatic increase in brain size? Are you kidding?


From the stanford encyclopaedia of philosophy

QUOTE
The basic idea of kin selection is simple. Imagine a gene which causes its bearer to behave altruistically towards other organisms, e.g. by sharing food with them. Organisms without the gene are selfish -- they keep all their food for themselves, and sometimes get handouts from the altruists. Clearly the altruists will be at a fitness disadvantage, so we should expect the altruistic gene to be eliminated from the population. However, suppose that altruists are discriminating in who they share food with. They do not share with just anybody, but only with their relatives. This immediately changes things. For relatives are genetically similar -- they share genes with one another. So when an organism carrying the altruistic gene shares his food, there is a certain probability that the recipients of the food will also carry copies of that gene. (How probable depends on how closely related they are.) This means that the altruistic gene can in principle spread by natural selection. The gene causes an organism to behave in a way which reduces its own fitness but boosts the fitness of its relatives -- who have a greater than average chance of carrying the gene themselves. So the overall effect of the behaviour may be to increase the number of copies of the altruistic gene found in the next generation, and thus the incidence of the altruistic behaviour itself.

Kin selection theory is often presented as a triumph of the ‘gene's-eye view of evolution’, which sees organic evolution as the result of competition among genes for increased representation in the gene-pool, and individual organisms as mere ‘vehicles’ that genes have constructed to aid their propagation (Dawkins (1976), (1982)). The gene's eye-view is certainly the easiest way of understanding kin selection, and was employed by Hamilton himself in his 1964 papers. Altruism seems anomalous from the individual organism's point of view, but from the gene's point of view it makes good sense. A gene wants to maximize the number of copies of itself that are found in the next generation; one way of doing that is to cause its host organism to behave altruistically towards other bearers of the gene, so long as the costs and benefits satisfy the Hamilton inequality. But interestingly, Hamilton showed that kin selection can also be understood from the organism's point of view. Though an altruistic behaviour which spreads by kin selection reduces the organism's personal fitness (by definition), it increases what Hamilton called the organism's inclusive fitness. An organism's inclusive fitness is defined as its personal fitness, plus the sum of its weighted effects on the fitness of every other organism in the population, the weights determined by the coefficient of relationship r. Given this definition, natural selection will act to increase the inclusive fitness of individuals in the population. Instead of thinking in terms of selfish genes trying to maximize their future representation in the gene-pool, we can think in terms of organisms' trying to maximize their inclusive fitness. Most people find the ‘gene's eye’ approach to kin selection heuristically simpler than the inclusive fitness approach, but mathematically they are in fact equivalent (Michod (1982), Frank (1998), Hamilton (1996)).

Contrary to what is sometimes thought, kin selection does not require that animals must have the ability to discriminate relatives from non-relatives, less still to calculate coefficients of relationship. Many animals can in fact recognize their kin, often by smell, but kin selection can operate in the absence of such an ability. Hamilton's inequality can be satisfied so long as an animal behaves altruistically towards others animals that are in fact its relatives. The animal might achieve this by having the ability to tell relatives from non-relatives, but this is not the only possibility. An alternative is to use some proximal indicator of kinship. For example, if an animal behaves altruistically towards those in its immediate vicinity, then the recipients of the altruism are likely to be relatives, given that relatives tend to live near each other. No ability to recognize kin is presupposed. Cuckoos exploit precisely this fact, free-riding on the innate tendency of birds to care for the young in their nests.

Another popular misconception is that kin selection theory is committed to ‘genetic determinism’, the idea that genes rigidly determine or control behaviour. Though some sociobiologists have made incautious remarks to this effect, evolutionary theories of behaviour, including kin selection, are not committed to it. So long as the behaviours in question have a genetical component, i.e. are influenced to some extent by one or more genetic factor, then the theories can apply. When Hamilton (1964) talks about a gene which ‘causes’ altruism, this is really shorthand for a gene which increases the probability that its bearer will behave altruistically, to some degree. This is much weaker than saying that the behaviour is genetically ‘determined’, and is quite compatible with the existence of strong environmental influences on the behaviour's expression. Kin selection theory does not deny the truism that all traits are affected by both genes and environment. Nor does it deny that many interesting animal behaviours are transmitted through non-genetical means, such as imitation and social learning (Avital and Jablonka (2000)).


??

QUOTE
The current issue of Scientific American describes some research with humans and primates that illustrates humans' superior sense of fairness. I suppose one could say fairness is is in one's self interest. However, like altruism, there is a range of fairness in people. Some people play fair all the time and others cheat. Extreme cheating can result in jail time, so I suppose that would be a non-adaptive trait (to the extent that society works well).


can the functional members of a society be thought of as a kinship group that punishes freeloaders then?

Rick
QUOTE(CuriousFreshman @ Oct 11, 2007, 01:10 PM) *
can the functional members of a society be thought of as a kinship group that punishes freeloaders then?

Yes, I think that's a valid view. It could be a gene expression mechanism. That is, a person with a lower genetic predisposition to play fair (or whatever behavior is socially desirable) gets environmental incentive from his peer group, resulting in stronger expression of his weaker genes. In extreme cases where the death penalty is applied, anti-social individuals have all their genes removed from the pool.

We can also apply the idea to cases of positive reinforcement. A person who exhibits genuinely altruistic behavior (passes the deception detection tests of the minds around him) is seen as more lovable and gets more or better mates.
CuriousFreshman
i see. but in these cases the dominant mode of behavior, or the socially accepted one, is fair play. can social pressures explain how altruism/fair play first evolved, because the dominant behavior during their time of evolution would be selfishness?

QUOTE
It is quite possible that natural selection would have favoured humans who genuinely do care about helping others, i.e. who are capable of ‘real’ or psychological altruism. Suppose there is an evolutionary advantage associated with taking good care of one's children -- a quite plausible idea. Then, parents who really do care about their childrens' welfare, i.e. who are ‘real’ altruists, will have a higher inclusive fitness, hence spread more of their genes, than parents who only pretend to care, or who do not care. Therefore, evolution may well lead ‘real’ or psychological altruism to evolve. Contrary to what is often thought, an evolutionary approach to human behaviour does not imply that humans are likely to be motivated by self-interest alone. One strategy by which ‘selfish genes’ may increase their future representation is by causing humans to be non-selfish, in the psychological sense.


Isn't "real" altruism described above still for self-interest, but only evolved to contain a conscious component of feeling "altruistic" as to hide the self-interest mechanism underneath?

Is there any explanation for genuine, non-biological altruism - i.e. adoption, saving strangers, humanitarianism? Were they a 'recent' thing or do they happen in primates or the pre-homo-sapien lineages?
Rick
QUOTE(CuriousFreshman @ Oct 13, 2007, 01:33 PM) *
Isn't "real" altruism described above still for self-interest, but only evolved to contain a conscious component of feeling "altruistic" as to hide the self-interest mechanism underneath?

Is there any explanation for genuine, non-biological altruism - i.e. adoption, saving strangers, humanitarianism? Were they a 'recent' thing or do they happen in primates or the pre-homo-sapien lineages?

If we consider that every human being we will ever meet contains more than 99% genes in common with us, can we ever be said not to be helping our selves when we help others? That's really what the selfishness of our unconscious genes is all about. Similarly with all life forms. All Earth life is based on the same DNA code, so in some sense, we are related to every species.

So that is the explanation for "genuine" altruism (opposed to "for show" (or false) altruism).

There's a philosophic explanation too. Every person, from interior experience, is indistinguishible from any other person. That is, the pain I feel from, say, a burn, is identical to the pain another feels. Similarly with pleasure, say, of good food when hungry. The identity theory holds that if two things are indistuingishable, then those two are the same thing. Helping another is, therefore, helping one's self. In a similar manner, there is not really any death so long as humanity survives. Accordingly, most Medals of Honor are awarded posthumously.
Rick
QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Oct 29, 2007, 09:11 AM) *

I have been increasingly convinced that information qua information is what really evolves. We are simply developing the neurological architecture to process this information.

Or perhaps we are developing the architecture of intelligent machines who will take over this function for us.
CuriousFreshman
thank you all for the resources

is there any research done that links altruism/cooperation to neocortical activity or socially complex organizations?
dutch84
Have you seen this before, by any chance?: http://faculty.ed.uiuc.edu/g-cziko/wm/05.html

And there is a video about a girl who can tell the location of trauma inside of your body by some special senses she developed from a brain injury or something: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxp54YsExZ4&feature=related
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.


Home     |     About     |    Research     |    Forum     |    Feedback  


Copyright © BrainMeta. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use  |  Last Modified Tue Jan 17 2006 12:39 am