I spill my guts on this forum in the most honest way I can. I join in on most topics unless its out of my depth, like most of the nootropics and neurology threads. Everytime Joesus has posted I have made an effort to understand what has been said, why it was said, and how it relates to the previous posts - most of the time I can't find anything other than a mandatory opposing view. Joe laughed at the fact I'd given an example of ancient drug/plant use from a TV documentary and lotus positioning within heiroglyphics (usually on the crown of a deities head). He made the statement that ancient religious practitioners never used entheogens, and I supplied him with evidence on the contrary. From this point on his posts had no real substance and refused to relate to the topic. Freedom of speech is one thing, multiple posting of the same view is spam and should be treated as such. If you can't join in the discussion, but still post anyway, what does that say?

Ficticious example:

Poster1: "How do people feel about cruelty in the world"
Poster2: "Cruelty is sad, but in some cases necessary"
Joesus: "God is everywhere"
Poster1: "But what does that have to do with anything?"
Joesus: "Only God knows the truth"
Poster2: "If God allows cruelty then he is definately not a 'good' god."
Joesus: "The definition of Good/Bad is a human construct, God is infinite and beyond words"
Poster1: "So What about war, is that a necessity?"
Joesus: "God is everywhere"
Poster1: "But what does that have to do with anything?"
Joesus: "Only God knows the truth"
Poster2: "If God allows war then he is definately not a 'good' god."
Joesus: "The definition of Good/Bad is a human construct, God is infinite and beyond words"

Yada yada yada - see my point?

I could argue with myself all day long in that vein, but after the first few posts it gets annoying and brings nothing new. It just seems like every new post is an invitation for Joesus to come post another no-value-added post. I really feel that Joe is just another Dattaswanni who resists the urge to flood the forum, but instead replies to every posting in preach mode.

I did make clear my skepticism in turning to the media as a source of absolute authority. There are countless theories about the Egyptians and the Mayans, and no one has established an authoritative foundation of fact.
What I did say is that when the degradation of natural spiritual knowledge infects the mind, desperate measures have resulted in seeking visions to pump up spiritual beliefs. Spinning, hallucinations thru mind altering substances, all these artificial means to force the mind into some alternate reality are simply a means to try and manipulate the senses into having an experience beyond what is deemed as normal.

There are probably some truths in the ideas that some have turned to entheogens because they had lost their natural ability to turn to God without them.
In your own words you said :
"You believe in a God, you are a fool sir. The experience of "God" is grounded in biology, we feel it at times because of chemicals in the brain and certain experiences."
In this I think you are saying God would not be a subject of discussion or belief if it were not for certain biological sensory experiences.
This would mean that God is created by the bodily senses which convince the mind that there is something substantially greater than their current experience. But the mind would have to have a foundation of something within itself to call God and what I find interesting is not everyone will accept another's explanation or description of God if it is conflicting with their own.
So whatever is stimulating the experience of God can be linked to the imaginings of certain individuals but it cannot be isolated to ones imagination or to a single fact.
If it were true that God is simply Biological then it would be something that could be easily bottled up and sold. The fact that it can't be sold that way only leaves you with your opinion.
As much as you wish to protect it and get credit for it would be relative to how vulnerable your belief is.

As Lucid said. I don't always answer your questions the way you want me to.
Sometimes the best reasoning is to point out the flaws in trying to establish relative truths into absolute truths, and knowing the difference between relative truth and absolute truth.
Then reasoning isn't established in belief but something much more substantial.

And your right about something, You could rant all day creating fictitious scenarios and they would never establish any real sensible meaning because not everyone experiences life the way you do, nor the way I do for that matter.
But it is amazing how much some get upset when their opinions aren't shared. Maybe this is more than a biological experience as well. Maybe its just a choice.

I will not continue this discussion with you here, or anywhere on this board. I don't care that you don't share my view, or that your view of 'God' is different from mine. Its simply that you are not actually contributing in the discussion, but simply waiting for the opportunity to post more indoctrinated dribble, or worse, attacking posters who are attempting to discuss these issues.

You avoid direct questions and have done so many many times. I am only upset about you spoiling a discussion by posting rubbish until the interesting posts are completely obscured. Stay out of topics I create please, because I don't value your opinion and find you obnoxious.

I do fully support Trojan point of view. I tried to derive some reasonable core in that behaviour of Joesus, some posts seemed interesting, but later on all turned into some morbid form of philosophic spaming and seemingly having aim of intentional derailing of very important topics.

Hope Mr. Joesus will carefully consider this good willing critique and will change a little.

Joesus is a compulsive charlatan. Any efforts to quite him down most likely will be rendered futile, unless he becomes convinced of the problem himself. That's something we have to deal with. Because, on the other hand, his posts bring a unique perspective; albeit once in a blue moon. So looking for that valuable perspective, don't be surprised if you find yourself in the same situation as a good buddy of mine did one time when he lost a valuable ring he treasure a lot: Someone had pull a prank on him and put the ring in the next meal he ate. So you can guess where my buddy had to search for days to find his valuable ring. But, that's just Joesus being Joesus.

I set this up so you guys can continue you discussion here instead of going off topic in the mods and admins guidelines

Amazing..

HAHAHA Joesus is such a popular guy he got his own thread. Why don't you guys just not read his posts if you care so much?

Personally I dont see that much of a problem, I think the main reason why people are having problems with Joesus is they dont agree with him. They are labeling anything religious as essentially spam.

Brain Meta is a place where everyone is free to express their opinions and a LOT of our members express their opinions very loudly. Theres nothing wrong with this, Joesus says his thoughts about something and Code Buttons says his thoughts about Joesus' thoughts (usually not good thoughts either lol).

The thing is, everyone is equal on this forum and everyone is welcomed to voice their opinion, the mods are only here to make sure everything runs smoothly.

If someone says something you dont like, your free to say you dont like it and they are free to argue against your opinions. We dont censor people on Brain Meta and we never will.

While not everyone make think Joesus' posts are insightful, me and Lucid have said over and over again how insightful some of the things are that he writes.

Just different perceptions on the same thing.

I just might have fun regardless of whether they responded at all.
I guess we're all having fun or we wouldn't be here.

I find Joesus' ability to tweak some members interesting. Code_buttons, it's easy to use the 'Ignore this User' function to hide selected members posts, but that doesn't change that fact that Joesus presents an arguably valid view that many find difficult to deal with. So the question is, why is it difficult for so many to come to terms with Joesus' view? Personally, I think his overall claim is valid, as least as valid as pantheism or other monisms. Some of his claims about early spiritual teachers not using entheogens are questionable, but no more so than claims to the contrary, and in the end, bear little on his fundamental views. He has his convictions, but so do each of you. Really, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Congrats Joesus, the thread on you has become more popular than most! I think the problem lie not in the message stated, but in the manner in which it is stated.

I think the problem lies in the idea that there is a problem.

What you focus on grows.

I wish that were the case--I focus on my muscles, but all that grows is my waist line

All I ask for is some respect, then I return it. I have no problem with a quasi-Buddhist viewpoint, or a hindu/sikh/christian one either. I have a problem when any knowledge or experience I have picked up gets laughed at because "I saw it on TV", I didn't only see a TV show and post. Its like the Zeitgeist thread where I got the reply "You didn't just bend over and accept that based on a 40 minute video", despite me saying "It confirms a lot of things I've been thinking" prior to that. Its just rudeness for the sake of it. If didn't know better I'd think Joesus was on the defensive.

Joesus stated a few things and retaliated a few ways that I subsequently threw into a false light, and when I asked for a response, several times, he couldn't just continue the discussion with this new information. Instead he defaults back to spouting Zen BS. I think you should change your name again Joe, maybe Yoda would suit you better.

I'll book your flight to that planet where they found him a few hundred years after he disappeared. Then you can be involved in the second coming...

Not true, studies show that imagining yourself lifting weights causes you to send neural signals to cause increase in muscle tissue. Imagining you are lifting weights can cause an increase of 50% of what your muscles would be had you actually lifted the weights. This happens because your mind does not distinguish between real and imagined experience.

The thing you have to remember is its not the lifting of the weights that makes you stronger, its the increased muscles mass. Why does the muscle mass increase? Because the arms send signals to the brain regarding the level of difficulty in lifting the weights. Then the brain deduces it needs more muscle mass to make this hard work easier (adaptation), so it sends a signal to begin producing more muscle cells.

Loosing fat is the same way, fat is fat cells, in other words - stored energy. You simply have it so that your mind raises your metabolism, therefore lengthening the amount of time in conversion from carbohydrates to fat cells and increasing the amount of energy that is converted into muscle cells. Which also means you have more time to burn off carbohydrates before they become fat. This is also why some people can eat a smaller amount of food and gain fat, while others can consume large amounts without gaining fat.

Building muscle mass in itself is a thing of neuroscience and biology.

There's a story about 2 monks, both have taken a vow of celibacy. On a journey into the nearby village the two are walking along a river. Somewhere during the trip there is a woman on the opposite side seeking help to cross the river. One of the monks crosses the river, picks up the woman, carries her across, sets here down and continues walking toward the village. The second monk watches in horror and disgust.
While they continue the journey the monk who had witnessed the scene continues to fume but says nothing until he can no longer hold back. He screams at the monk who carried the woman. "How could you do such a thing? You have taken a lifetime vow of celibacy, you shouldn't even look at a woman!"
The first monk replies,"I put her down a long time ago and you are still carrying her."

Now I know you like black and white thinking TL. It would be easy if everything went the way you want it to go. There would be less to stress about and nothing unexpected or out of the ordinary. You could plot out your life the way you would expect it to go and everything would be in its place.
But the thing is, life doesn't work that way for you does it!? It pisses you off when life doesn't respond to your every expectation. If it didn't bother you you could put this down but you haven't.

The story represents rigid thinking and the inability to flow with concepts in a different light.
It could be I didn't respond the way you wanted me to because you were expecting me to give you something I couldn't give you, which is an experience to match yours.

You are making more of an issue about your self respect than I could ever do. You're defending it like it could be taken from you. It can only be given away by you if you decide to let someone or something take it away in some illusion you create in your mind.
Is your self respect an object or thing you carry or is it what you think about yourself? IF you don't have the strength to see it in yourself then you will seek to find it in something that will give it to you and protect it.
This is the unfortunate state of those who depend on their knowledge to define themselves. Some try so hard to accumulate enough knowledge to protect their identity, and to define their reason for being alive in the first place.
It's amazing that you could allow yourself to feel threatened in the first place don't you think?

Lucid stated that I countered your idea that spiritual teachers of the past used entheogens but that isn't exactly what I said.
What I did say was that there are different levels of comprehension and there are those who can unite spirit and the manifest without the need to push themselves out of their current state of awareness because they feel stuck behind the veil.
These spiritual Teachers, Teachers like Buddha, or Jesus lived constantly in union with spirit.
Then there are those who are taught that the veil must be broken through because the veil is real and it separates you from what is imagined as God.
These teach that there is something you must do to experience God such as push the mind through the veil by artificially creating a condition in the mind and body that the mind and body cannot do by itself.

The difference is in the level of consciousness in the spiritual teachers.

One knows about God and the other is bringing God into every thought feeling and action in every moment.
One is conscious and the other knows about consciousness.
One stands in Union with God and the other talks about having been there.

One is God, and the other speaks of taking some road and having a glimpse of God elevating the road into a spiritual icon.

One can travel many roads that are linked to the reality of life but until one actually steps into their divinity they are traveling a road. The ones who are traveling the road are the ones who shout the loudest about what it's like to be at the end of the road, and are most likely to defend themselves and accuse others of not knowing anything.

It is absolutely clear for the most readers that his specially designed mnemonic technique of ideas expression is very irritating and brain affecting.

If things continue in this way appliance of counter measures will be a matter of time.

You know what veil opening boy I will open a thread named "Freemasonry, Grand Secrets of" - Fairy Tale in the literature section and we shall see how your hypnotic spell will disappear at once!

Hey, I didnt want this thread, others felt it important. I've lost nothing except the will to post in any topic on Brainmeta. I don't feel threatened by your actions, just infumed by your incessant bollocks. Actually, thats what I should picture whenever I see your posts, a huge pair of hairy bollocks that are foaming at the mouth.



I never said anything about my own self respect.
This is not self-respect I'm talking about, and this is how little you listen to others before preaching. Why don't you bother reading peoples posts properly before beginning your posts. Do you lack the ability in your senses, or maybe the mental focus to extract the relevant information.

"Why should I need life to respond to my every expectation" -hmm..? At which point did that become clear to you, because your logic alludes me. What I expect is a normal persons response when more information is brought to light. All you want to do is pop into the "hippy" thread and make fun of the hippies. You had no intention of doing anything other than preach, and this is exactly what you did. What you expect is a group of people taking everything you say as Gods word, like your little zombie congregation. You should grow up, you really aren't enlightened, your ego is the largest here on brainmeta. Cult leaders are the worst examples of Egoless people on this green Earth.

Pretentious - of course
Arrogant - sure
Enlightened - my arse!

That is what I said.

Whau! Now we see a new modified avatar of the wonderful fresco drawn by the Michael Angello.

So the battle begins Mr. Joesus, the thread is started in literature section.

We shall see who is the true Lord of this World.

No that is not what you said. You said my EVERY EXPECTATION. Expecting a relatively normal discussion doesn't make me a person who expects everything to be the way I want. Again you avoid the obvious misrepresentations I pointed out in my last post and tried a single attack.

I'm sorry, but you should go get that penis removed from your forehead.

This is not the issue max, its simply that the good posts are sparse and well hidden amongst the huge amount of same ole Joesus spam. If this was actually forwarding the discussion then there is no problem. But its Joesus leading the discussion nowhere and the amount of his posts that cause the issue. Peoples counterposts wouldn't be needed if he&she didnt' consistently attack other members ideas or discredit anything they say with statements that are just wrong or misleading.

As for people who find the way he riles people amusing... that is just plain silly. Go find a more popular forum (www.imdb.com) where trolls are a common problem, you'll love it there.

I may just take up the same stance as Joesus, since some people like it so much. Lets see how many threads I can derail before anyone bothers to do anything about it. :@

If you see an issue where you feel as though a member is Hijacking a thread, use the Report button at the bottom of the post, this will get forwarded to the mods and we will take care of it.

My view on this matter in general still stands, Joesus is a valuable member of Brain Meta, he knows a great deal more about religion than I probably ever will. I have found him very helpful on a number of philosophical subjects, a great deal of religion stems from philosophy, so the two are quite intertwined and interchangeable.

I don't think Joesus would put that much work into writing his posts if he just wanted to troll here. Furthermore, I doubt he would have hung around this long if he just wished to troll the forum. Maybe you don't like his posts, but for the most part, I enjoy reading what he writes. It provides a perspective I do not have and sometimes I realize things I would never have realized - had I not seen through the eyes of someone else.

Your missing my point alltogether. I don't usually read his posts: I skim them. What bothers me about his posts is the way in which they disrupt cohesion and belittle the topics of discussion; for the most part. They steal seriousness from the forum.

Always the victim never the creator.

Knowledge, Wisdom and Insight

Intellectual deficiency or educational poverty unavoidably handicaps higher religious attainment because such an impoverished environment of the spiritual nature robs religion of its chief channel of philosophic contact with the world of scientific knowledge. The intellectual factors of religion are important, but their overdevelopment is likewise sometimes very handicapping and embarrassing. Religion must continually labor under a paradoxical necessity: the necessity of making effective use of thought while at the same time discounting the spiritual serviceableness of all thinking.

Religious speculation is inevitable but always detrimental; speculation invariably falsifies its object. Speculation tends to translate religion into something material or humanistic, and thus, while directly interfering with the clarity of logical thought, it indirectly causes religion to appear as a function of the temporal world, the very world with which it should everlastingly stand in contrast. Therefore will religion always be characterized by paradoxes, the paradoxes resulting from the absence of the experiential connection between the material and the spiritual levels of the universe--natural law and its multidimensional components, the superphilosophic sensitivity for truth discernment and unity perception.

Material feelings, human emotions, lead directly to material actions, selfish acts. Religious insights, spiritual motivations, lead directly to religious actions, unselfish acts of social service and altruistic benevolence.

Religious desire is the hunger quest for divine reality. Religious experience is the realization of the consciousness of having found God. And when a human being does find God, there is experienced within the soul of that being such an indescribable restlessness of triumph in discovery that he is impelled to seek loving service-contact with his less illuminated fellows, not to disclose that he has found God, but rather to allow the overflow of the welling-up of eternal goodness within his own soul to refresh and ennoble his fellows. Real religion leads to increased social service.

Science, knowledge, leads to fact consciousness; religion, experience, leads to value consciousness; philosophy, wisdom, leads to co-ordinate consciousness; revelation (the substitute for complete removal of awareness from the material world but extending it beyond) leads to the consciousness of true reality; while the co-ordination of the consciousness of fact, value, and true reality constitutes awareness of personality reality, maximum of being, together with the belief in the possibility of the survival of that very personality.

Knowledge leads to placing men, to originating social strata and castes. Religion leads to serving men, thus creating ethics and altruism. Wisdom leads to the higher and better fellowship of both ideas and one's fellows. Revelation liberates men and starts them out on the eternal adventure.

Science sorts men; religion loves men, even as yourself; wisdom does justice to differing men; but revelation glorifies man and discloses his capacity for partnership with God.

Science vainly strives to create the brotherhood of culture; religion brings into being the brotherhood of the spirit. Philosophy strives for the brotherhood of wisdom; revelation portrays the eternal brotherhood, the construct of God.

Knowledge yields pride in the fact of personality; wisdom is the consciousness of the meaning of personality; religion is the experience of cognizance of the value of personality; revelation is the assurance of personality survival.

Science seeks to identify, analyze, and classify the segmented parts of the limitless cosmos. Religion grasps the idea-of-the-whole, the entire cosmos. Philosophy attempts the identification of the material segments of science with the spiritual-insight concept of the whole. Wherein philosophy fails in this attempt, revelation succeeds, affirming that the cosmic circle is universal, eternal, absolute, and infinite. This cosmos of the Infinite I AM is therefore endless, limitless, and all-inclusive--timeless, spaceless, and unqualified. And we bear testimony that the Infinite I AM is also the Father of Christ ( in Jesus and all men) and the God of human salvation.

Science indicates Deity as a fact; philosophy presents the idea of an Absolute; religion envisions God as a loving spiritual personality. Revelation affirms the unity of the fact of Deity, the idea of the Absolute, and the spiritual personality of God and, further, presents this concept as our Father--the universal fact of existence, the eternal idea of mind, and the infinite spirit of life.

The pursuit of knowledge constitutes science; the search for wisdom is philosophy; the love for God is religion; the hunger for truth is a revelation. But it is the indwelling living connection to all, that attaches the feeling of reality to man's spiritual insight into the cosmos.

In science, the idea precedes the expression of its realization; in religion, the experience of realization precedes the expression of the idea. There is a vast difference between the evolutionary will-to-believe and the product of enlightened reason, religious insight, and revelation--the will that believes.

In evolution, religion often leads to man's creating his concepts of God; revelation exhibits the phenomenon of God's evolving man himself, while in the earth life of Christ (Jesus and all spiritually evolved humans) we behold the phenomenon of God's revealing himself to man. Evolution tends to make God manlike; revelation tends to make man Godlike.

Science is only satisfied with first causes, religion with supreme personality, and philosophy with unity. Revelation affirms that these three are one, and that all are good. The eternal real is the good of the universe and not the time illusions of space evil. In the spiritual experience of all personalities, always is it true that the real is the good and the good is the real. -anonymous author-

I know. They think they can play into a collective God on this planet. Great misleading I should say.

Times are changing, and their time goes off.

You see when you want you can write a readable stuff though consisted of statements only.
I have fundamental disagreement with your statements and if time permits I will critique them point by point later on.

I didn't write it.

So I disagree with the one who wrote it. Old, one-sided definitions.
But well written.

I liked it and don't disagree at all with any of it. I think it has relevance to the way we approach life to include or reject what we think about and make real.

ATTENCION!

Joesus is a narcissist and solipsist.

For your own safety and health ignore him or pat him on the head.

Complaining about him only eggs him on.

You have all been warned!

Who the hell are you?

Maybe you will even suggest to crucify him? Hm?

No kidding hu? That was a bit much.

blackishaya, your posting can be construed as an unprovoked personal attack, which is generally discouraged. If you have some personal history with Joesus that you would like to share with us, ...

Just noticed blackishaya's post, and wanted to make it clear its not me lol.

HAHAHAHA! I see you're also a comedian besides all the other attributes you listed before. Have you been in any of the movies I've seen at my local cinema? YOu're up there with Jacky Chan!

By now I use Manage Ignored Users Options.
Very useful option. I do strongly recommend to use that option to anybody and recommend that option to new coming users to safeguard from religious and pseudo - philosophic spamming.

I dono, I still find even though I am not religious - I can still learn a lot from some of the ideas certain people hold. Right now I find certain Buddhist concepts interesting and others, well quite the opposite. So I pick and choose in my philosophical ideals.

I find Buddhism's void concept very intriguing, and I find Hinduisms honesty and acceptance also very humbling. I find the western God to be a method of control and so I generally reject ideas from that "Holy book". I can still see the jewels within each religion when I am looking for them, which I feel is the most important thing to be looking for.

I dont appreciate having to go through mountains of unnecessary knowledge just to find these hidden pearls. Why doesn't some clever spiritual master create annotated and summarised versions for us plebs? That would make understanding these texts more accessible to the modern world. I know the answer to this though, its not because "you have to walk the path to truly understand", its more like the Emperors new clothes... If you can't see the truth in them, your not ready for it... lol.

If the avatars of the ignored users be hided as well that will be perfect indeed.

Maximus 242,

I understand your point of view, but after reading posts of you know whom my patience exhausted.

Btw, my reply button does not work. Is it so for all?

>doesn't some clever spiritual master create annotated and
>summarised versions for us plebs? That would make understanding
>these texts more accessible to the modern world. I know the answer
> to this though, its not because "you have to walk the path to truly >understand"

Great idea! Let us write short definitions of several religions. It will be a wonderful thread.

What is unnecessary to one is necessary to another. I find his really long posts, when I read them front to back, just blow me away. Some days Joesus really just blows my mind with some of his philosophical ideas. The thing is most of you dont actually read his whole posts, so you dont get the message behind the message. Because your just skimming you only get a tiny portion of what he's talking about.

Honestly would I really be defending him if he were just spamming religion? Hell no.

>The thing is most of you dont actually read his whole posts, so you dont get the message behind the message.

And those who get the message behind the message highly appreciate their project as I see. Interesting.

It seems to work for me.