HUMAN PRIMORDIAL FORCE

Taoist history goes back to the time when everybody was living in nature and in caves. They discovered what we call the Wu Chi, the Original Force or Primordial Force. In those times, the Chinese started connecting with nature and feeling the forces of nature. “In the Taoism of my lineage,� says Master Chia, “the origin goes back to the Wu Chi, the Supreme Natural Power in the universe—in Western terminology, God. It means ‘nothingness,' but it is filled with ‘Dark Matter,' the subtle sub-atomic entities.�

Humans also store part of the primordial force. Starting from the beginning of conception when the egg and sperm come together in the first cell—this cell has the power to draw upon the primordial force, combine with it and form what comes to be a human. Just as when the first cell divides and multiplies, the subsequent reproductions from the original retain the capacity to draw upon the primordial force. The practice of the Inner Smile and the Six Healing Sounds will help to reunite with this force.

When the human body is formed, the sexual organ cells store part of the primordial force. The heart stores part of the original spirit (yuan shen) of the primordial force. The right kidney stores part of the primordial force that supports life and gives more life. When we combine our love, compassion and orgasmic sexual energy, a harmonizing resonance effect arises at the synergistic frequency of eight Hertz. In this state of activation, our cells will draw in the primordial force and a process of cellular intercourse occurs. DNA is transcribed in the nucleus and translated via RNA in the cytoplasm. Cells divide and combine, giving birth to new and improved cells. This cellular intercourse will also occur when we have stored enough of this combined sexual energy (jing) and then combine it with love and compassion energy. The kidneys store part of the primordial force and connect with the earth force, which also has the same eight Hertz frequency.

There are many rooting Chi Kung practices in Taoism to help ourselves to be energetically rooted into the earth in order to access its primordial force. Earth force is combined with the universal primordial force so that it is a source of the major force that is closest to the quality of human force. The Heavenly Primordial Force and the Earth Primordial Force combine with Human Original Primordial Force (such as the combination of creative life forces at human conception of the first cell). Thus, we can give our new cells' DNA the support of the creative life forces that nurtured our first cell—original reproductions, but genetically enhanced versions through the power of ‘positive personal engineering'.

This came from a Taoist master, Mantak Chia. He is very experienced with "Dark Room technology for endogenous Pineal Soma and DMT production (Endohuasca)".

Just felt the need to share this and hear from your views.

Mantak Chia has a lot of very useful practices and techniques, most of which I enjoy (I've learnt some of them through a different lineage) and he has good reasoning behind doing them, to a point. Some of his writings for me are far too esoteric and he pushes his scientifically linked explanations far too far from known reality. He also makes some of his teachings far too technical, where they need not be; you can get a paralysis by analysis effect from just reading his work. But otherwise, he is a very useful source.

A. The scientific background of the phenomena described in ancient texts is not yet revealed by the scientific community.
B. Something exists but there are no open funding to research that something openly.
C. Official Science does not openly fund such researches at all.
D. There are no scientific papers published in peer review journals openly tackling the problematic using the ontology in the text quoted (and/or in similar texts of druidic character).
E. Spiritual experiences of a set of individuals does not make possible to apply Induction methods to Deduce some certain knowledge about the phenomena. Even if something is Deducible, then an educated person percepts that ONE SHOULD KEEP IN SECRET THAT HE HAS A SECRET TO KEEP.
F. Such topics can be researched within circles of closed societies of interested scientists and discussed on hidden forum providing high level of the transferred data encryption to speak calmly about the cabbagies and kings. This all for public good, stability, tranquility and prosperity.

That is what I think about that.

PS: But one day things will change and things will not be possible to hide, and at those days something new will be invented to provide public goodness, stability, tranquility and prosperity.

What about before man fell to this level, When man was living in the glory of divine understanding and union. In the true nature of Self, without limitations and without the need to forage for energy outside of their own source Creating castles of Gold, diamond and living plass.?

I am aware that his teachings are not for the average mind, and need close studying and attention. Some of his seminal retention techniques may be dangerous for those who do not know how to circulate their sexual energy up through their meridian points preventing pressure build up and damage.

It is time to move through "known" reality, accept that everything we know may be false and start investigating.

The thing about Mantak Chia is that he is VERY experienced. He teaches METHODS for energy cultivation which are known to work. There are many people who have succeeded with his techniques and this is what makes him legitimate. You may not agree with his scientific explanations or you may not understand them, but this should not prevent you from practicing the Taoist path which leads to higher energy and self-awareness.


Sounds like the rest of you could experience a Dark Room Retreat

I don't see how that has any relevance to my post

So just because the "scientific community" has not come up with an answer means that I should just discard this information?




The path of a Taoist is to experience and learn through that. Not to use "scientific evidence" as the basis of his path.




I'm pretty sure experiencing a Dark Room retreat would not need one to rely on "Official Scientific research".




It sounds like you are far too attached to these "scientific papers". Think for yourself. Looking through other's eyes is not of the Taoist path, which is what this thread is based on. Thinking through other's eyes only poses as a hindrance on the path to self-realization.




I am grateful to Mantak Chia for sharing his knowledge and wisdom. I understand how you are not.




Oh and what comes from "scientific papers" is all for the good, stability, tranquility and properity"?



Sounds to me like a complete load of crap. Let me guess, you work with the pharmaceutical companies in finding stable cures for humanity?

The Tao,"The Way" does it espouse to direct one to a past moment in history relevant to cave dwelling mystics that have through their own beliefs devised their system of practice? Or does it, The Tao "The Way" direct one to awareness of the absolute Self/Consciousness/God?
I guess I'm asking what is the relevance to cave dwellers? IF it is living in nature that you believe cave dwelling depicts, I would say that to live in nature doesn't require one to get naked and move into a cave.

He is giving an example. Cave dwellers lived in complete darkness, Mantak Chia is the founder of a Dark Room retreat.

Through darkness and nature the ancients were able to discover something within themselves - their connection with the source. Chia is bringing back the knowledge through teaching the methods of Taoism and through hosting his Dark Room retreat - which many have found very productive and life altering for the good.

http://www.universal-tao.com/dark_room/index.html

No. You asked the question, I made a statement in form of an answer.



Maybe, but I just accentuated at the frames we face to by now.



It may turn to be so, but such experiences should be leveled by scientific argumentation, control and monitoring. Just in case if something dare to jump off from that 'Dark Room' to our wonderful shiny world.



I just site the fact without making conclusions.



I have not said that. I just pointed at the existing options of responsibility of any individual researching in the realm of ridicule.



Sometimes yes, sometimes not.



Misbehavior young man, non-polite misbehavior...



No I just think how to make your race better and less dangerous to the other worlds and thinking beings all over the universe.

I see so using a limited amount of intelligence the idea is to recreate the idea that living in darkness, such as a cave creates experiences that can be labeled as spiritual awakenings.

You know there's a group who suspend themselves with steel hooks that claim to be able to create similar experiences and they don't need a darkroom.
Then there is the idea of sitting outside taking shrooms to cross the threshold of human experience.

Being that the absolute is in everything I kinda like the idea of watching reruns of "Leave it to Beaver" in a diaper non stop without getting up to evacuate the bladder or bowels, to reach nirvana.

Give it up, your not going anywhere with this. You are obviously unaware of how staying in darkness for extended periods of time can allow us to experience lucid dreaming, astral travel, inner light, OBE, realization, etc. These are very sacred and powerful experiences and very useful on the path to self-realization. So many people have become more enlightened through experiencing Dark Room Enlightenment. Yes the divine is accessible anywhere and everywhere, yet there are some things we can do to increase the rate at which we realize the divine within. *shrugs*


Enki, this thread is not about scientific evidence. I don't need proof for what I experience. Maybe you do, that is where we differ. This is about realizing and awakening to the science within. Nobody can know your body and mind better than you can. This is Taoism.

It is funny how I come on here and post a passageway from a Taoist master, and all you people do is try to shut me down. And then you claim to be "spiritual". Give me a break!

I see no compassion in any of your posts, and then you discriminate a taoist master (or claim to know more) who has awakened himself and others? All I can do is laugh at your ignorance.

The mythical Golden Age never really occurred. It's one of those societal objectives toward which we should strive.

Regarding undeserved attacks, FP has a point, doesn't he? It seems to me that there is much to admire in his philosophy, and it's no indictment if it is not in accord with some specific idea of perfection.

Humanity is always reflecting the choices that unite or separate creation. Ultimately we would realize that in working together we will find ourselves.
To say that the Golden age never occurred is speculative. There are many things left over from previous periods in time that spark the imagination. Atlantis and Lemuria are more than myth and spiritualists speculate that the achievements of these spiritual societies surpass that of our present civilized achievements.
Even the most recent examples given by some here of Egyptian and Mayan cultures refer to using entheogens to spark spiritual unity, but in the case of the Mayans they're also remembered for their blood sacrifices.

If the idea of using intelligent thinking to refine ideas is seen as an attack then I'd have to say there isn't much room for thought.
In the case of dark room environments or even "sensory deprivation tanks" that were raved about in the last few decades, the speculation that the experiences enlighten people is just opinion.
Anything used as a mechanism to shield one from their own creation to find the point of creativity is going to be relative to the layers of influence that are the beliefs incurred while living in the world.
People in the past have tried to force the mind in numerous ways, such as wearing hair shirts standing next to fire in the hot sun, or residing in caves until they have some kind of experience.

There is a story of a monk, who isolates himself in a cave until he reaches a level of experience in silence. Feeling he has reached understanding he steps out of the cave and trips over a rock and falls. In that instant all kinds of thoughts flood through the mind as do countless sensory experiences associated with the fall. And in that instant, all silence is lost.

The idea of sensory deprivation is not new and it certainly hasn't lost its luster to the imaginings of those who would seek to find an experience to help them understand their lives and purpose for living. Many seek to escape their current level of experience to find another that is superior to the one they have.
Few understand the one they have or why they have even created it and as such they imagine it is wrong or false. In a sense it is false but it is the result of discordant thought.
Shutting out the outside will only prolong its reality and the experiences one has while doing so are more apt to be the release of stress in the nervous system as one quiets the mind.

As some have stated so clearly meditation is not about the experience, and so to sell these ideas for their experiences is contradictory to the intelligent thinking that goes with that understanding.

But then sensationalism is what catches the need for instant gratification, and a good sales pitch is not necessarily about intelligent thinking but to idealize what is being sold.
In this case I'd say that covering the illusions created thru hypnosis with the idea of the good of all humanity is a very old pitch.

If you go beyond experience, you find out what is below ideas and relative ideology.
No

Beyond experience?

Now you are just playing with words. If "I" go beyond experience, then I would still be experiencing wouldn't I? If I wasn't experiencing, wouldn't I be a little unconscious? And I am not talking about the ego's experience, I am talking about the experience of awareness.

All experience is consciousness, if there was no experience then there would be no consciousness. That is just my simple interpretation... yours seems pretty complex. As is the mind.

And you say meditation is not about the experience... please explain your semantics as they would most likely confuse many people. Meditation is about becoming. Becoming is an experience. Please tell me how this is wrong.

Spirituality is not about being confusing, or using a confusing language. It is about connecting to others. Connecting to others does not work when you play the game of semantics and wordplay. It doesn't work when you play games at all.

'TRUTH is simple. Very simple-so simple that a child can understand it. In fact, so simple that only a child can understand it. Unless you become a child again you will not be able to understand it. It is an experience, not speculation.'

And Who would be experiencing?

Is consciousness still consciousness if it is not an experience?

It is simple, so simple a child could understand it to use your words.

Are you still becoming if you don't meditate?

This is your rule?

"Know what is in front of your face and what has been hidden from you will be revealed to you. For there is nothing hidden that will not be made clear and nothing buried that will not be raised."

In other words people are already connected, and realizing that may not be at the level in which one believes in their own disconnectedness.

Yes.

yes they are but experience of life outside of the solid vehicle that is the body is not always accepted as real or possible. There is consciousness in a rock. Does one have to become a rock to experience the consciousness in the rock?

By removing the barriers which cover its reality, what is exposed and has existed before ideas were placed upon it? Is consciousness dependent on the known physical world and its relative concepts for expression?
In enlightenment does one rise to ones greatness by stepping outside the experience of suffering, or does one take the greatness which extends itself beyond suffering and bring it into the level of ignorance and suffering to understand?

My awareness would be experiencing consciousness.




No but unconsciousness is not consciousness. This has nothing to do with what I said :/




Becoming identified with your ego

Once again I don't see how your question has any relevance to what I am saying.




No it is an observation and a fact. When there is no connection there is duality and separation, spirituality is transcending this.




Behind the illusion people are already connected, yes. But not everybody sees through the illusion. It is not wise to confuse those who look to transcend the hindrances of illusion. Confusion is only a hindrance.

Your perception would be that awareness experiences itself. This would be the experience you would have of consciousness but is consciousness contained in that experience?

Unconsciousness as a dual representation of consciousness is not what I said.
You believe consciousness is not consciousness if it doesn't fit into your experience. Unconsciousness is only consciousness not experienced.

I can see that.

And as such not everything can be understood if there is no capacity for understanding.
Try handing a quantum physics book to a 3 year old and see how far you get in teaching the person who hasn't yet mastered the language in which it was written, what it means. You are wanting to fault the physics book because you don't understand it.

There can be no confusion when there is the capacity to understand.
As such, you like so many others, would stand before God and say."If there be a God show thyself so that I may believe."

This is just an arrogant manipulative tactic of the ego. It would put God and all experience of God in a box according to personal beliefs and desire.
Make it understandable you say so that it is spiritual and connects all things.

Time to step out of the I am enlightened ego box.

Taoism without science is lame. (paraphrasing Einstein)

This question is out of context..




There is plenty of consciousness I am not conscious of. I made no such claims.




My point was in understanding our attachment to external things (including the mind) - including a quantum physics book, and how this causes separation. You really know how to sway off topic. We were originally talking about the explanation of meditation which could cause confusion and separation, then you bring up a quantum physics book? Off topic...




WAY off topic...

Taoism is a science

Taoism is a science because it is based upon a detailed understanding of underlying physical, chemical, biological, mathematical, psychological, and political theories and laws. Science rests on the assumption that all events of the entire universe can be described by physical theories and laws. But the sciences studied in our universities deal with the material universe; they cannot deal with the spiritual or immaterial universes, which cannot be observed directly or indirectly through our senses. Taoism acknowledges that all elements of the universe are subject to the same physical theories and laws; therefore, the physical theories and laws of the material universe are applicable to the spiritual universe. Taoism is a complete science, and an understanding of Taoism results in the complete understanding of the entire (material and immaterial) universe.

Science Proves Feeling Good Grows on You

Medical thinking is at the cusp of change. Modern medicine is focused on a left-brained, logical view of the physical world. The wonderful medical advances in the physical realm: surgery, drugs, medical diagnostics, and research are only part of the story. There is another part to the reality we live: the energy part. It is no longer possible for medicine and science to ignore the truth of this other side of life. Herbert Bensen from Harvard, who pioneered the use of "The Relaxation Response" decades ago, states the difference between Alternative Medicine and Mainstream Medicine is Science. Now that we have scientific evidence the practices of the Universal Tao work, this is not alternative any more. It is Science. Teachers can use these scientific facts to help students take small steps toward the goal of appreciating the power of Qigong on personal progress. Qigong [chee gong ] is the art of internal energy development perfected by the ancient Chinese Taoist sages. Finding a way to connect the mundane daily reality of an earthbound population to the glorious treasures of spirit is a challenge dating back to ancient times. There are many current scientific findings available which parallel Healing Tao teaching and can help students see the effectiveness of qigong so they will give it a chance. The nervous system has two main parts: the somatic, or voluntary; and the autonomic, or involuntary. The Autonomic Nervous System is the more automatic one. It takes care of breathing, heartbeat, digestion and other basic functions. It has three parts, the Enteric Nervous System in the gut, the Sympathetic and the Parasympathetic nervous systems. In a research paper from HeartMath [see below] published in the Journal of the Advancement of Medicine, patients recalling an angry episode for just 5 minutes suppressed their immune system function for up to six hours. This episode also produced erratic heart rhythms, jangled nerves and other common symptoms produced by the Sympathetic Nervous system making the body ready for "fight or flight". Qigong techniques are known for quieting down the Sympathetic Nervous System. This allows the Parasympathetic Nervous System, PSNS, to dominate and quiet the body down. One of the known actions of the PSNS is increased saliva. Master Chia says a lot of saliva is a signal to him things are working right in a qigong meditation session. A 20 year study done by a London university showed people who had unmanaged negative emotions were more likely to develop one of the biggest killers: cancer and/or heart disease than the people who smoked tobacco and ate high cholesterol foods. The emotional risk factor was greater than the physical ones: people died faster from built-up. Science Proves Feeling Good Grows on You (by John Starman, M.A.) Qigong and Tai Chi Instructor, Certified with the Universal Tao and Taoist Master: Mantak Chia. Member of the Healing Tao Instructor's Association of North America Director of Wellness Institute for Research and Education 217-629-9897 Medical thinking is at the cusp of change. Modern medicine is focused on a left-brained, logical view of the physical world. The wonderful medical advances in the physical realm: surgery, drugs, medical diagnostics, and research are only part of the story. There is another part to the reality we live: the energy part. It is no longer possible for medicine and science to ignore the truth of this other side of life. Herbert Bensen from Harvard, who pioneered the use of "The Relaxation Response" decades ago, states the difference between Alternative Medicine and Mainstream Medicine is Science. Now that we have scientific evidence the practices of the Universal Tao work, this is not alternative any more. Its state with "increased consistency, thereby reducing stress and enhancing health, emotional stability, performance and quality of life." These same steps are used in qigong to begin to develop inner strength. The research specifically points out it is important to focus attention on the heart and actually feel the emotion, not just think about it. This is exactly what Master Chia has taught us: "Mix the deep energy, the jing, with compassion in the heart and the benefit will stay."

Over the years, the idea of how the emotions work has evolved. The current idea is the whole brain and the body are both necessary in the full experience of emotions. The brain includes the thinking part, the memory, and the limbic system: the deep connecting and integrating parts. The nerve and hormone messages from the body to the brain are also necessary. In an article published in The American Journal of Cardiology, (Vol.76, 1995), Dr. McCraty and others detailed how bringing attention to the heart and feeling positive emotions, such as appreciation, tends to bring about smooth, healthy heart rhythms and a much healthier nervous system. Some of the measurable benefits are: "reduced depression and improved functional capacity in elderly patients with congestive heart failure; the restoration of normal blood pressure levels in hypertensive individuals and improved glycemic control and quality of life in patients with diabetes". The researchers believe the basis for the action is the nerve impulses going back up to the brain. These afferent signals come from the viscera, [ the internal organs ] and the extremities. Scientists now believe experiencing emotion requires perception of external stimuli, brain processing, memory, and the signals from the body, all working together.

How can a person send a message into the brain at just the right place? Science has found a direct line into the brain: the vagus nerve. The vagus nerve is the tenth of twelve cranial nerves. This pair of nerves comes right out of the brain and goes down each side of the neck into the chest and abdomen, connecting to the organs. These are large nerves, as big as your little finger, and can carry messages each way, both to the body and back to the brain. Even though the vagus is not part of the voluntary nervous system, researchers have found they could communicate right inside the brain by using the vagus nerve. These messages returning to the brain go right into the so-called "limbic system" deep inside the brain where they are processed in the emotional centers and then connected to the thinking part of the brain, the cortex. Are there other ways to use this pathway, maybe Chi Nei Tsang [internal organ massage used to clear stored emotions, CNT]? Science is finding emotional memories exist in the viscera as well as the brain, and CNT brings them out. A new treatment for depression is based on the idea of using these messages sent from the body back to the brain. Scientists found a small electrical stimulation to the vagus nerve helped prevent seizures in epileptics. [ The stimulation is in the range of 0.25 mA to 3.0 mA, 20 Hz to 30 Hz frequency, 250 msec to 500 msec pulse width, with 30 second stimulation intervals every three to five minutes]. A small device is surgically implanted with wires going to the left vagus nerve in the neck. [ The right vagus has a strong connection to the heart, so they don't use it.] The scientists noticed the epileptic patients not only reduced their seizures, they also started having a better mood. Studies showed changes in the activity of various brain structures were similar to the changes found when using antidepressive drugs. The scientists also reasoned that since the vagus was connected to the heart, a "top down" approach, and depressive patients showed heart rate variability, maybe a "bottom up" approach would work. It was tried on severely depressed patients who had tried many other treatments with very little success. It showed 40% of the patients reduced their "depression scale" scores by 50%. Half of them had results in 3 weeks and of the total, 17% were said to have completely responded! This is very significant and other trials are now taking place around the country. Since the vagus nerve connects to the organs and sends messages to the brain, and since studies have shown attention and positive feelings to the heart cause very positive physical changes, what happens when we use movement, breathing, and ALL of the organs and ALL of the virtues: Love, Joy and Happiness; Openness and Fairness; Gentleness and Wisdom; Kindness and Generosity; and Courage and Righteousness? This is just the first part of the qigong practices taught in the Healing Tao / Universal Tao. This shows how the wisdom of the ages goes far beyond science, but it is good to see science catching up. What a wonderful Systems of Learning we have been given. I have great hope and faith that more and more people will find and use these tools of qigong. I am excited to imagine millions of people becoming truly mature and evolved: physically, mentally, emotionally, and energetically. Many will achieve higher levels of mastery than ever before in the world and we will have the privilege of seeing "full fledged" humans, showing the true capabilities that can people can achieve. May we truly appreciate this and receive the strength and guidance to bring these powerful tools to a thirsty world! Come and enjoy learning the art of internal energy development. Get powerful tools to help you achieve emotional harmony and radiant health.

You mean it doesn't fit into your agenda.

Sure you did.
i.e. I asked you "Is consciousness still consciousness if it is not an experience?"
and your claim was...No with this qualifier but unconsciousness is not consciousness.

No not off topic. You wanted to stress the point that Spirituality is not about being confusing, or using a confusing language. It is about connecting to others. Connecting to others does not work when you play the game of semantics and wordplay. It doesn't work when you play games at all.
You are wanting to make spirituality look a certain way.
If you can judge me and my words because they don't make sense to you, and you can cover your own ass then you can justify your reasoning that you are spiritual and I am not.
You've already said this in stating how there is no compassion or spirituality in the attacks on your person.
This in itself, this perception of attack is a belief in separation. Where am I separate from you that you perceive me attacking you?

Point of reference.

Come closer to your creation and be a part of it rather than segmenting it into ideals.
You don't need entheogens to do this nor do you need to meditate to do this, you only need to recognize primordial force in your own reflections and move toward that.

They make sense to me, but the fact that you have to analyze, reduce and oppose everything I say is not spiritual, it is analytical and of the mind. Because you disagree with my use of entheogens it appears that you are in disagreement with everything I have to say. I see where the duality of our situation stemmed from. If I had never mentioned the entheogens it is a definite possibility that this duality would not have taken place and you would not be in disagreement with everything I have to say.




You don't need to tell me how to experience and achieve my goals. It is not your way or the highway, we each have our own individual paths to take to self-realization.

First: Taoism is NOT a science.
Second: Science can 'deal with'/study everything.
Third:Crossing of physical, cybernetic and neuroscientific theories yields new directions in science.

According to your definition,

sci·ence (sī'əns) Pronunciation Key
n.
Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

According to this definition, Taoism is science. Knowledge of the spiritual can be gained through Taoist practices. Gaining knowledge is not limited to observing the physical.

But the sciences studied in our universities deal with the material universe; they cannot deal with the spiritual or immaterial universes, which cannot be observed directly or indirectly through our senses.

So when you said:
Once again I don't see how your question has any relevance to what I am saying. it was because of duality.
The two opposing forces that you recognize as disagreement.
It's possible that duality will continue to be your experience if what you hold onto as truth cannot change or expand beyond its present condition.
All things that you say do not need proof because of your experience, may endure and never evolve in your experience because you will not allow another experience which is greater than yours, especially if you haven't experienced it.

No I don't need to do anything, but because I have free will to surrender to greater wisdom than personal experience, I may meet a situation like you to move through any idealization of what I might or might not do.
Or maybe I already have..

Your constant need to prove me wrong and prove your wisdom is where the duality stems from. I do not disagree with everything you say, you are the one who is in constant disagreement with my words. Your continuous analyzation only shows me that YOU are the one who is in duality.




So you are not going to surrender to greater wisdom through personal experience? As you can see this is just a game of semantics you are playing. Wisdom is not about games, so I suggest you quit playing them if you wish to surrender to greater wisdom.

But isn't that your interpretation of this dialogue?
Have I said I am here to prove my wisdom and your inferiority?
Aren't you being a bit paranoid?

No you don't disagree with everything I say but you do disagree with alot of what I say and as such have made comments to my being less than compassionate, spiritual and even suggested that I was not as clear as you.
I'd say you are being defensive.

Aren't you the one who is analyzing me?

If I take my personal experience and call that the end all to wisdom then there is no room for more experience or using what you once said.

"There is plenty of consciousness I am not conscious of."

Having an experience of that which I do not contain in experience allows me to surrender all thought feeling and action to something much greater than what I could hope to contain in an experience. True wisdom lies in universal mind rather than the personal agendas wrapped around personal experience.

No, its not, you only perceive it that way because it threatens what you already believe is your personal mastery of Self.
Your knowledge, or wisdom is mostly a copy and paste memorization, and that in itself may lead to experiences, but there is no finite experience of the Self and No wisdom that can be contained in the realm of the personal.

Wisdom is in being able to play the ultimate game of life without feeling threatened or feeling you own anything.
I suggest you learn how to play the game rather than trying to define it.
There is a difference.

Speak for yourself

You're a really funny guy!

I suggest you quit defining me

Wisdom is laughing at the absurdity of these mere concepts, and trust me laughing is something I have been doing.

I would never do that.

Oh common, it is too apparent you have a definition of me in your head

It would be I suppose.
Part of that consciousness that you have not experienced yet.

Science can study everything.
Material, immaterial, spiritual are just words we use, their essence changes along with our investigation of the world. Prior to wave theory the concepts of the material world were quite different, with development of cybernetics the concepts of matter underwent serious changes. Gradually such concepts as Materialism and Idealism loose their conceptual value because both already have archaic nature. In present databases those concepts cannot be used as key defining elements in Data warehouses.

You operate your brain by words already discarded by the Analytical Philosophy!

Science can study everything, but objective science cannot study the subjective realms of nature and experience.

What if the whole of nature could only be understood subjectively, and that when we try to understand it through conceptualization and analyzation we only make things more complex than they already are? IMO, atomizing nature is a process of our dual mind and it's need to try to grasp nature and existence through itself. Our dual minds will never be able to fully "grasp" the wholeness of nature, although we can become aware of it on so many levels. There is no spoon.


There are more things in heaven and earth than in most scientists’ philosophy. – William Shakespeare

“Every man takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world.�

In the last analysis, we see only what we are ready to see, what we have been taught to see. We eliminate and ignore everything that is not part of our prejudices.

That would explain why you believe that your drug induced altered states are higher states of conscious awareness.

Stuck in the past are we Joesus?

After all of your lectures on attachment, you sure don't practice what you preach.

I suggest you quit defining me

It is very notable that you quote Sir Francis Bacon – one of the creators of the Scientific Method.

How could I not define a definer?

Stop looking outside of yourself.

pardon my ignorance.

sure

it's situations like these

that people should stop , breath and smile

maybe have a beer together, hell maybe 2 or 3...

hug.

and give in to the fact that nobody(scientist or not) will ever have all the answers.

There will always be mysteries to the universe and human spirit.
I strongly feel that the human race and any other race out there(space) will never know How we were created and Why... until we pass to the next stage or level of existence(death). And who is to say it ends with death. I feel comfort in the fact that we will all know someday what happens next.
but until then...
Love yourself ,Others, and smile
it's good for you

Peace and Love