I found out that the ABC letters are ideogramms which contain meaning. Like the runes which were used for magical purposes. Since I have so far only covered the basics I'd like to invite you to add some ideas of what they could mean.

My guess is that those who shaped the letters (which started as Egyptian hieroglyphes, which later were simplified and transformed into the Greek alphabet, which later became the Roman alphabet) wanted to write something like a teaching poem about the meaning of the universe and the proper way of living. And they deliberately put them into this order to say something. Let's find out what it is.

I start with the basic meanings expressed in the language of system theory. It is a more general version than the original one which applied to universe and humans, but you can easily apply it on that system, too.

A up-down with stabilizing middle
B probably upper and lower half, or shortcut for fractal structures (two quite often means many)
C left half, open
D richt half, closed
E up, middle, down
F up, middle
G spiral
H middle, with additional support
I individual component
J individual with low (?)
K ?
L low
M up-down-up-down
N up-down-up
O the system as a whole
P upper half
Q individual entering or touching the system as a whole
R upper half with descending connection
S up: left half, down: right half, both open
T up
U down-up, broadband
V down-up, focused
W down-up-down-up
X nod in the net, the net in general
Y ?
Z up stable, coming down, down stable

As you see, these aspects indeed are substantial for any complex system. I hope you can get the intuitive feeling of what up, middle, and down means, since I don't know how to explain it exactly. It's like up is the higher speed, and down the lower one, also up is a more complex subnet, and low are more dispersed ones.

Another thing is that there are 26 letters, so you can't count them in packets of 3. Use pairs instead. (Except the last 6 one which seem to be triples.) Each pair gives an extra meaning to the two letters, like a sentence with two words. (There are more words to each of these sentences which are not mentioned, and only important if you want to translate into English grammar.)

Also there are sets which belong together:
E F H L T
B D P C S R
A M N
U V W
O I Q
(20)

Hope we can work on this together and bring some additional meaning into.

The order in which they were written might very well have to do with the complexity of their pronounciation; at least for the first two letters. Being that "ah" and "ah-bah" (the "h" of course is silent here) are usually the first "words" to come out of a baby's mouth. Spelled "a" and "a-ba" in Spanish, Italian and German, amongst others.

Probably another facet. The B really looks like the lips when pronouncing it.
Though, it doesn't explain why the M (the third letter of a baby's mouth) is in the middle, and why the letters look like they do and not like Γ or П or И or Ѳ or ℧ or ᾖ


ʕ Ŧ Ǝ � Ƌ Ɣ Ƒ Ƣ ƥ Ǯ

ɶ ɰ ɸ ʮ Σ Ψ ϖ Ж Љ Б ђ

� ຈ ຖ ຜ ຯ ຮ ອ ຫ ສ ລ

₴ ↯ ⇄ ↫ ⇶ ≑ ⊂ ⋞ �

� ⎂ ⎃ ⎈ ♂ ♥ � ♀ ⚓ ⚙ ⚅

� Ћ Њ Ю Я Ҧ Ш Ч ₢ ₣

₡ ∰ ⑥ ⊉

✓ ☎     

just a question...

Is this issue like the Ramachandran's view about metaphors..
that some people sees 5 as green because they have close representations at the brain??

or you do mean something more sophisticated.

If the question is naive, I am a novice in comparison to the people round here.

I think of course there are close representations in the brain. The question rather is whether a metaphor is useful or confusing, whether it's elegant or awkward.

For people who aren't interested in the deeper aspects of the universe or who don't want to live to the maximum extent, the subject I brought up is useless and confusing. Probably nowadays most people think like that, and so this knowledge isn't widely available.

On the other hand, it's a magnificient tool for initiating people into magic and mystery of the cosmos, and it indeed seems to me to carry this meaning. What I don't know are the historic origins, it seems in ancient times there have been quite a couple of ways to write letters, and there was a major change from the Greek alphabet to the Roman one. I have a suspicion that the Parmenides people in Velia, Italy had a hand in it, but I'm still investigating and don't know for sure.

By the way, Wafa.., being from Egypt, would you like to say something interesting about the Arabian writing since I'm quite ignorant about.

Or we may also talk about hieroglyphes if you are into them, the only thing I know is that the ideogramm for a camel was called gamel, changed its shape until nowadays' C, and C is the first letter of its pronounciation how it was at a certain time.

Written language has always been a subject of fascination for me. And very much related to the topics discussed in this forum. I dare to say the the implications of the symbolism in written language goes far beyond the meaning of the letters and the words. I think the the thread is very relevant for many reasons and I wish to use it to find-out more on the subject.

That's fine. I also want to make an in-deep investigation, so it's probably a good idea to start with the hieroglyphes and track their way towards our alphabet. And have some sidelooks at other writing systems at well.

By the way, what does your avatar mean? I can only understand the moon.

seems that you are big fans of languages, I barely know about hieroglyphes actually..you may know much better than me about it .

About the Arabic one, yes Camel is pronounced in arabic language "jamal",you know the (g) has two ways to pronounce it, the one like that in the word "goal" does not exist as a phonetic in arabic language but we use it in some nowadays accents. There are lots of words that seems same as lemon we pronounce it "laymoon" also "jinni"..which we pronounce it the same

-The arabic language consists of 28 letters starting with letters in the modern arrangement. There were an old one,which has sequencing very similar to the sequence of the Latin letters alpha, beta gamma, delta, the new arrangement of letters also have some similarity but not like the old one.
There are some letters that does not exist in English language but maay exist in other Latin derived languages as the German's "kh" one.But it seems that arabic is unique at a single letter pronounced similar to "Daad" but sure the phonetic is substantial element it is a deep hollow pronunciation, "some describes the arabic language as the language of the letter "daad""
-The verbs in the arabic language is different from the English, it is classified as "present, past and request(or order)".The words in arabic has a singular form and a plural one but also a form for expressing "double or two"
-It worth mentioning that arabic language didn't have undergo major changes for more than 1000 years because of the islamic religion and the "Holy Qura'an" which is written in arabic and its memorizing it is a very good deed in islam.

Actually I do not have much thoughts about the written issues of languages but I am used to think more about pronouncing the words, how the words are so integrated by face expressions and muscles,
for example the words describes bad gustatory feeling:
Disgusting, puke "mok'reff:which means disgusting in arabic" notice the face expression you can make while saying these words.
Also notice "happy" and "sad"


At last, about the avatar, it is a signet ring for the prophet of Islam Mohammad(PBUH).What is written -in arabic:D- Mohammad The messenger of Allah. Allah is the name of God in Islam. The image is edited to be silvery like this, it is not the original image.


I am really glad by your responding guys..I wish I was more informative, but you know I am a big dump in any thing related to languages..If you need more information please tell me. )))))


Wafa

I think you mean 'command mode'? Cool avatar, though, wafa. But I think electric was asking me. Either way, thanks for explaining it. Mine is the symbol in chinese caligraphy for dragon, or the the Yang (fire and earth). But it's not always written this beautifully. This particular one happens to have an inverted cross (white on black). It is perfect in symetry, balance and angle. I have the same symbol tatooed on my left shoulder for reasons other than aesthetics: It has a personal meaning. Unfortunatelly, I came across this version of it too late after the visit to the tatoo parlor. So I went back to change it but they said that all sales were final. Oh well, my luck!

code buttons, thanks. I even have this ideogramm in my papers since I'm trying to learn Chinese. However, my efforts are not dedicated enough, and so my progress is stumbling slow. Hope one day maybe a Chinesa will teach me...
My book says your ideogramm is called lung and means dragon, basilisk, imperatorial. I think for the yang there's another sign but I'd have to look it up.

.....

Wafa, yes, the idea of looking at the pronounciation issues are fine. Only today in the morning it occurred to me that many words starting with spr... all have more or less the same meaning:
spring, spray, spread, sprig, sprinkle, sprout,
in German even more so: sprengen (blow up), spritzen (squirt), sprühen (spray), sprenkeln (sprinkle), spreizen (splay), spröde (brittle), sprudeln (bubble), and even sprechen (speak)

Here's where you can find words containing certain letter combinations:
http://wordnavigator.com/

In this case I think the s in the beginning, followed by a sudden pr gives the impression of something waiting for, and then expanding. In linguistics they call this principle of making words echoic or onomatopoetic. I guess it was the first principle of our languages, and likely all words once started that way. Only later, when language became too complicated, it somehow got shrouded by the complexity of rational relations between the words.

On the basis, however, this sensual principle still should be there, probably easy to discover if you look at the words in a certain way.

Oops I am sorry I didn't mean it actually, I read electric's comment about hieroglyphes so i thought he is talking to me,...I also wondered about where is the he is talking about!! lolll .

Thanks for correcting the "command mode" issue, also thanks for the comment about the avatar ))


Thanks electric for the site..it is interesting.



Wafa

I do not understand the logic of your notation. Explain.

So, if you knew what it meant, why did you ask me? And, maybe I didn't make myself clear; what I meant to say is that the symbol means Dragon. And dragon is the symbol of the Yang. That's what I meant to say.

Glad to see that you're back and with a vengence, Enki. While we're on this subject, can you please clarify this term "Word Matrix" which you have used here in the past and all that you know about it, if you please? Or put up the link to the threat here at BM were you explained the subject?

I really did not understand his notation. Why I cannot ask a question? Have I been arrogant in my question? If yes, the I am sorry for my bad English.

Besides, you know it is very notable that you ask this question exactly 3 years after my first registration at this forum on 10 September 2004. I introduced Words Matrix concept here 3 years ago in my vain attempt to explain to some very certain kids in US a set of very important things. Unfortunately I dramatically failed in my attempt to explain them anything. And each time when I remember about the Words Matrix concept it reminds me about that dramatic failure of mine. That is why I try not refresh my recollections on that subject. So I am sorry.

What are you talking about!

Fair enough, Enki. I understand. As I understood then. No need to bring it back.

Electric is trying to establish meaning in the "picture" a letter makes. For example, the letter "X" looks like a node in a network. The strokes of a letter can establish movement. This is an artistic concept. For example, the letter "A" has an up and a down stroke with a "stabilizing" middle stroke. Is there meaning there? You tell me.

Thank you for explaining Rick, now I got it.
It is rather poetic approach.
I just should think about that more carefully because in my notation English letters defined in different way. E.g. n-m, v-w, t-f, p-b etc symmetric transformations like in the crystallography.

Yes please.

Always Be Careful

Yes indeed.

That sounds interesting.