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Enki
What do you think about this? I have never read such very specific text before.

QUOTE
Extraordinary Inquiry
Into The Extraordinary
By Gabriel Chiron


http://www.neosocrates.org/Articles/Extrao...traordinary.htm

To philosophize, we may now say, is an extraordinary inquiry into the extraordinary.

—Martin Heidegger, 1935

Martin Heidegger pointed it out over seventy (70) years ago, but it is hard to locate ensuing examples of extraordinary inquiry, nor do we find any widespread consensual agreement among modern thinkers as to what is itself extraordinary enough to call forth extraordinary thinking. If we name platitudes, such as Being, Truth, Reality and so on, we recognize such platitudes as all too ordinary, which Richard Rorty points out so clearly and amusingly in his little volume, Contingency, irony and solidarity (1989, Cambridge University Press).

Extraterrestrial intelligence is an extraordinary ontological and phenomenological challenge and hardly constitutes a platitude, yet the mediocrity of ordinary sociological behavior (including government cover-ups) around the subject has created platitudes such as “Do you believe in UFO’s?” or “Do you believe in Aliens?” or even, “Do you believe some people have been abducted by Aliens?” What is thus potentially an extraordinary issue for mankind remains dull, flat, boring and virtually inconsequential short of a genuine Alien Invasion. In my own articles about Intergalactic Politics and Finding and Processing Cosmic Information I attempted to instigate extraordinary inquiry, but it never happened and continues to not happen. The very unpopularity and occasional critical squelching of these articles indicate a definite revulsion in society against extraordinary inquiry into the extraordinary.

In a way, all sorts of people can agree as to what constitutes extraordinary topics. These can include the ever-titillating and speculative areas of out-of-body-experiences, extrasensory perception, telepathy, reincarnation, higher and subtler bodies and worlds or realms, ghosts of the dead, mystical experiences of unity with God, the Absolute or the Divine Self, the Universe Being an Atom on a vaster macrocosmic scale (quantum recursion) or the Cell being an Omniverse on a deeper microcosmic scale (cellular recursion); vast and unknown, even dark and dangerous, quasi-Gods as in the H.P. Lovecraft literature or the Starry Wisdom tradition stretching back to ancient Sumeria. Then there are David Icke’s Fourth Dimensional Reptilians who control the world’s criminally insane political leaders of America, Britain and Israel. All of these are indeed extraordinary fields of current human interest, yet the “interest” in all of them remains pompous, dogmatic, mediocre, superficial and usually fleeting. Again and again, the Extraordinary is turned into the Ordinary through lack of Extraordinary Inquiry!

Now, if anyone has been following these thoughts so far, it should be horribly clear that Extraordinary Inquiry is more glaringly missing than Extraordinary Phenomena. The Sociology of Human Knowledge in and around Extraordinary Phenomena indicates an anti-ontological conspiracy of humanity. Hence, Extraordinary Phenomena are surrounded by both professional and amateur defensive routines and undiscussables as described by the organizational consultant, Chris Argyris. Dogmatic and actually inadequate mental models, paradigms, belief systems and worldviews all feel threatened, not by Extraordinary Phenomena, but by Extraordinary Inquiry.

What, then, is this terribly threatening thing that Heidegger calls Extraordinary Inquiry? It is nothing less than the breaking down, deconstructing, of our mental models or worldviews about Extraordinary Phenomena so as to freshly reconstruct new and better mental models or worldviews about such things. This is the Real Learning Process. And nothing less is Real Philosophy, which is fundamentally something like Hermetic Ontology which looks to new depths into the meaning and nature of Spirit and Matter, Subject and Object, Macrocosmos and Microcosmos, not as platitudes but as extreme meta-issues. Sooner or later the Extraordinary Inquiry culminates in something like Rajayoga Samadhi and genuine Cosmic Consciousness, which is exactly what happened to the truly First Western Philosopher, Hermes Trismegistus, Asri, Osiris of Ancient Egypt, later known as Melchizedek or the immortal Matsyendra, Lord of the Fish.

When there is full-blown deconstruction of the worldviews, intellectual and brain thinking and cognitive functioning become temporarily exhausted or suspended. One then can experience arising into the Superconscious state where all the new answers are made accessible. Then, with descent into ordinary causal consciousness, ego, intellect and brain, a new synthesis or reconstruction of one’s total knowledge takes place. It is the extraordinary leap into superconsciousness beyond deconstruction and prior to reconstruction that is the grand key of all genuine supramundane philosophy. Beyond logic is superlogic. In fact, it is the Ultraterrestrial who alone can truly comprehend and connect with the Extraterrestrial. The ordinary cannot comprehend or connect with the extraordinary. That is why we see Extraordinary Phenomena invariably isolated and neutralized by ordinary organized human discussion and socializing about any extraordinary subject. Human society is like an organism that treats any extraordinary phenomenon as an invasive germ, which activates the immune system, which forms a societal pusy sac of self-appointed “experts” and web-forums around anything unusual. This also explains why we never see a coordinated human response of intelligent System-Thinking about the totality of extraordinary subjects taken altogether. Whatever the various impinging extraordinary phenomena may be, the societal immune response policy or anti-ontological conspiracy will always basically, though unconsciously say, “Isolate and Neutralize!” This will also be the actual societal reaction to individual philosophical genius, to extraterrestrial contactees or real Yogis, Siddhas, Godmen or Ultraterrestrials. That is why Socrates was condemned to death and Jesus Christ crucified and Mansoor Hallaj cut to pieces by the petty Muslims. Always in ignorant, deluded, anti-ontological humanity the policy remains: Isolate and neutralize.

Every Internet Forum around some unusual subject is always a societal sac of pus. The very way the extraordinary is normally subdivided and categorized is inevitably stupid and counterproductive. Hence, no Internet Forum about anything can ever possibly be a Real Learning Situation or ignite Extraordinary Inquiry.

The very definition of Philosophy, as commonly agreed or “understood”, will never be what Heidegger gives: Extraordinary inquiry into the extraordinary. Perhaps now the reader of this article will see why.
rhymer
I quote the significant bit of the post (listed),

"ever-titillating and speculative areas of :-

out-of-body-experiences,
extrasensory perception,
telepathy,
reincarnation,
higher and subtler bodies and worlds or realms,
ghosts of the dead,
mystical experiences of unity with God,
the Absolute or the Divine Self,
the Universe Being an Atom on a vaster macrocosmic scale (quantum recursion) or the Cell being an Omniverse on a deeper microcosmic scale (cellular recursion)
vast and unknown, even dark and dangerous, quasi-Gods as in the H.P. Lovecraft literature or the Starry Wisdom tradition stretching back to ancient Sumeria.
Then there are David Icke’s Fourth Dimensional Reptilians who control the world’s criminally insane political leaders of America, Britain and Israel".

The authors question is why these topics are not investigated.
They are in fact mostly being considered by layfolk and experts (in some cases) and attempts made to better understand them and explain them.
I think the simple reason that most of the topics have drifted into pub discussions is the difficulty of applying scientific and unambiguous techniques to them, for the simple reason that most are 'experiences' (inside peoples' heads).
Enki
Thank you for commenting.

Actually the aspects, probably, touch cruxes of Scientific Method as it is.
We have experimentally verifiable domains, and for investigation of those domains we have certain criteria of truth. And, at the same time, seemingly we have experimentally not verifiable domains. But who knows, maybe those specific domains behave like S-Attractors, each time changing and never repeating and that is way we wrongly suppose that they cannot be investigated experimentally. If they behave like S-Attractors, then we are not able to apply Induction method of Sir Francis Bacon, neither we will be able to apply Deduction of Descartes-Aristotle and I guess that even the most advanced methods of Ontology development and advanced database analysis techniques will not be able to tackle the problem. So some new Method should be developed to coup the problem.

You see Gabriel uses such terminology as “Hermetic Ontology” . But I guess that in this Ontology the Keys of the Data Base should change in time – somehow whirl. If S-Attractors are engaged then that should incorporate quite specific and quite new criteria of truth, even the experimental approaches should me modified because for these cases the Hawthorne Effect is an option of extreme importance as far as I guess.
Enki
But anyway, though there are some shaggy points which you numbered, the text itself is quite exceptional one. I really never read anything like that before, indeed.

Such things help to think. I think I brought a good example related with the S-Attractors.
Joesus
QUOTE
no Internet Forum about anything can ever possibly be a Real Learning Situation or ignite Extraordinary Inquiry.

Believable but not totally true.
QUOTE

Every Internet Forum around some unusual subject is always a societal sac of pus.

Believable and possibly true.
Enki
"Isolate and Neutralize!" - Lord Voldemort's tactics. laugh.gif

Dear Joesus, tell to that penguin on your Avatar that when the white bear will get up, he will be not only angry but hungry as well.

And please do not get offended when people do not understand you. Nobody likes preachers' style, btw me too. I do respect your ideas, some of your ideas as a matter of fact I dislike very much.

Follow my advice Joesus: “Keep in secret that you have a secret to keep.”

And may the Force stay with you.

Any argument or idea should follow some criteria of truth. Spiritual experience cannot be considered as verifiable data. Non of us here on this forum will accept such data as reliable. To prove something scientifically one needs to follow commonly accepted methodology and if the object of studies require new methodology, then first it is needed to develop the new methodology. That exactly what Sir Francis did to discard Aristotelian misleadings.

To move mankind to new stage of reality perception the Platform of new knowledge should be created. It cannot be a task of a single individual.

One funny guy should give the spark,
A candid heart should chase the path,
And someone should provide the money.
Joesus
QUOTE

To move mankind to new stage of reality perception the Platform of new knowledge should be created.

Knowledge that is new to someone who has not heard or experienced..is it really new?

As to whether anyone likes me and my style is irrelevant.

I love all of you and none of you at all.
lucid_dream
Enki, it's not like Joesus mindlessly preaches. It shouldn't come as a surprise that some people do understand him and appreciate the meaning behind his words even if they are open to misinterpretation.

QUOTE(Enki @ Jul 31, 2007, 11:01 PM) *
Spiritual experience cannot be considered as verifiable data. Non of us here on this forum will accept such data as reliable.

Of course spiritual experience can be verified, it's just not very amenable to the scientific method. Would you deny your own personal experience even though science still can't explain it in detail? Even Descartes knew better. Spiritual experience, along with other forms of expanded or exalted states of consciousness, is one of the key discussion areas of this forum, which makes it very relevant. To blow it off as non-verifiable or less important than scientific knowledge misses the point in a big way.
Joesus
Some never will, but I knew the job was dangerous when I took it. wink.gif
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Joesus @ Aug 01, 2007, 12:06 AM) *
I love all of you and none of you at all.

have you been reading Nietzsche's "Zarathustra: a book for all and none"? Interesting use of seeming contradiction, highlighting the failure of language to communicate certain things, perhaps.

Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 31, 2007, 11:06 PM) *

QUOTE

To move mankind to new stage of reality perception the Platform of new knowledge should be created.

Knowledge that is new to someone who has not heard or experienced..is it really new?

As to whether anyone likes me and my style is irrelevant.

I love all of you and none of you at all.


I also love people very much, some of them are very tasty.

Under New Knowledge I understand something not yet published and re-published and ontologically polished in refereed scientific press.

Your style affects brains sometimes, btw, you think I cannot write in a way to affect brains? Hah!
Let us respect each other. Btw, I dislike Lindsay's style sometimes especially when he writes in Harry Krishna mode.
Enki
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Jul 31, 2007, 11:08 PM) *

Enki, it's not like Joesus mindlessly preaches. It shouldn't come as a surprise that some people do understand him and appreciate the meaning behind his words even if they are open to misinterpretation.

QUOTE(Enki @ Jul 31, 2007, 11:01 PM) *
Spiritual experience cannot be considered as verifiable data. Non of us here on this forum will accept such data as reliable.


Of course spiritual experience can be verified, it's just not very amenable to the scientific method. Would you deny your own personal experience even though science still can't explain it in detail? Even Descartes knew better. Spiritual experience, along with other forms of expanded or exalted states of consciousness, is one of the key discussion areas of this forum, which makes it very relevant. To blow it off as non-verifiable or less important than scientific knowledge misses the point in a big way.


The spiritual experience can be verified with low accuracy. From cybernetic point of view it can be well examined. I do not deny, I speak about verification, if your read my post above, where I speak about S-Attractors, you will see that I speak about development of New Method. Certainly that method, I guess, will be able to consider the spiritual experience as well.

Descartes had interesting dreams, description of the one of them is available for public reading. Certainly it is interesting. At the same time we can speak about Pascal's experience. But you must agree that those experiences are not verifiable.

> "key discussion areas of this forum"

Let me correct you: one of the key discussions.

I do not blow it of, I say that verification criteria are needed. Because if there are no certain criteria, any meditating Guru from Orient (e.g. from Iran) can declare himself a God and for years present himself to the World Meditating (Spiritually Experiencing) Community in the Global Dreamland Channel as something special e.g. in simple Qutub mode. Such situation definitely may present direct threat to the National Security of any Western Nation.

Verification is not possible to provide even if some set of gentlemen will use some certain access keys for pinging and "telepathic conferencing". You never can be sure: someone always can violate the keys or random percolation can take place. So the things must be scientifically measurable.

First the New Method must be developed. Things must be correctly classified. If the keys mutate and change in time the common cybernetic theory is not applicable. I am not suggesting to start the quest after the lost keys of the freemasonry. I am just saying that things must be ordered to push the problems consideration into scientific area.

Times are changing.
Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Jul 31, 2007, 11:11 PM) *

Some never will, but I knew the job was dangerous when I took it. wink.gif


Whau! This Joesus is cool. What a guy!

So what is the mission?
Joesus
QUOTE

Under New Knowledge I understand something not yet published and re-published and ontologically polished in refereed scientific press.

It may be some time before science devotees actually catch up to what is happening behind scientific closed doors, and humanity will be slow to catch up to what has been and always been while it is continually distracted by the flashiness of technology.
The reality of the ego is that it hates change because it has to give up what it already accepts as real to step onto another platform of reality. This is like stepping over the grand canyon for most. So any new ideas will come at a rate that it can comfortably integrate into the current box letting what isn't being used atrophy. This doesn't create such a shock to the system and keeps the illusion of being in control alive. Spiritual platforms are not created and so science won't be looking for anything relevant to historical truths and as you put it if it stumbles over anything that has already been discovered by previous minds of a more exalted nature it will be renamed and polished to be something that is new and never previously discovered so that the ego doesn't look so ignorant.

QUOTE
I love all of you and none of you at all.

have you been reading Nietzsche's "Zarathustra: a book for all and none"? Interesting use of seeming contradiction, highlighting the failure of language to communicate certain things, perhaps.

It's actually not a contradiction, but a statement of Union. If one has come to the experience of being the creator or witnesses consciousness and the manifest then there is the knowing that all are the same consciousness and that being the case focus comes back to a focal point of the Absolute consciousness.
Without ignoring the manifest as illusion which is sometimes taught in some circles of thought the experience is more akin to being aware of the body and its functions. We are connected to every appendage and internal organ but we do not have to give it attention to be what it is. You don't have to think about breathing and your lungs will work in accord with the muscles and the cardiovascular system to feed the cells with oxygen. Similarly you do not have to think about closing the fingers and the thumb to wrap your had around an object when the intention is all that it takes to commit to the act.
What is our awareness knows that these things are available without having to think about it, and because we can be self aware our connection to the manifest is one that is intimate yet due to distractions of the ego often ignored.
Love is the binding force/power that creates and maintains. Not the emotional love of the ego but the Spiritual nature behind the feelings.
Emotional love is flawed compared to the unconditional love of God in that if we lose what we love we think we have lost love when love itself can never be lost. What one experiences in loss or the experience of grief is the affects of attachment.
When one knows the true nature of the manifest and consciousness, or the creator, or conscious manifestation then there is nothing manifest that is ever lost because everything is born of intention.
No one grieves at the loss of a thought but the ego grieves for those thoughts that it attaches itself to. Beliefs in reality, and the attachments that are formed within these beliefs.

The essence of Gods love is the essence of power behind intentions and the potential that exists in every thought. Joy is the movement of potential like loving someone is a joy to a human when all thoughts are minimized and the awareness is narrowed to a point. There is nothing else other than that one thought.

QUOTE
So what is the mission?

Do you know freedom? If so do you need to ask?
Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Aug 01, 2007, 09:54 AM) *

QUOTE

Under New Knowledge I understand something not yet published and re-published and ontologically polished in refereed scientific press.

It may be some time before science devotees actually catch up to what is happening behind scientific closed doors, and humanity will be slow to catch up to what has been and always been while it is continually distracted by the flashiness of technology.
The reality of the ego is that it hates change because it has to give up what it already accepts as real to step onto another platform of reality. This is like stepping over the grand canyon for most. So any new ideas will come at a rate that it can comfortably integrate into the current box letting what isn't being used atrophy. This doesn't create such a shock to the system and keeps the illusion of being in control alive. Spiritual platforms are not created and so science won't be looking for anything relevant to historical truths and as you put it if it stumbles over anything that has already been discovered by previous minds of a more exalted nature it will be renamed and polished to be something that is new and never previously discovered so that the ego doesn't look so ignorant.


Well, I partially agree with you. But for each generation of people the info should be polished.
Besides you should accept that the science and the truth springing from the waters of the Invisible College provided quite many for the mankind. Though I should agree that the spiritual component have very dramatically deteriorated in time. That is why some amendments are needed.

But, contemporary people trust science rather than spiritual experience, that is why things must be proved scientifically.

Spiritual Platforms are migrating, plates merging one with another in time.

Besides let us make our discussion a little bit more practical.
What exactly do you suggest?

I suggest to draw money to initiate the research. But controllable research to avoid sensitive data percolation. Certainly some gentlemen already conducted some research, but as far as I percept they are in very deep misleading.

Your turn.
Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Aug 01, 2007, 09:54 AM) *

QUOTE
So what is the mission?

Do you know freedom? If so do you need to ask?


You know Joesus I live in a far away country where people's spirits look like ugly evil dwarfs, goblins, and trolls; elves are rare. My spirit is quite draconian, just to cope the environment, sometimes it looks too demonic, all depends on environment, closed rose and open rose differ in their outlook; but I know the true value of the true freedom.

I ask because I suppose I know what stands behind the word freedom. What stands there cannot be described by one word. You put all in one sack. I want to know why. You should explain.
code buttons
Back to topic you guys! Before my gut burts from laughing so hard!!! LMAO!!!!
rhymer
...quote Lucid,

"Of course spiritual experience can be verified, it's just not very amenable to the scientific method. Would you deny your own personal experience even though science still can't explain it in detail? Even Descartes knew better. Spiritual experience, along with other forms of expanded or exalted states of consciousness, is one of the key discussion areas of this forum, which makes it very relevant. To blow it off as non-verifiable or less important than scientific knowledge misses the point in a big way."

I did not mean to imply that the experiences included in the list did not happen: I query that they are interpreted rightly.

Most of them could be hallucinations, but snugly fitted into more important or interesting sounding categories like 'Spiritual' or 'ghost', ESP etc.
I don't know whether these experiences really have a significance (except for the person having them), and certainly would not discourage investigation of them. I do realise that because they are inside peoples' heads investigation is difficult.
Joesus
QUOTE
You put all in one sack. I want to know why. You should explain.

If a man starts from a beginning point or origin of self and along the way stops at many stations and after some time barely remembers a few places and experiences along the way, where does he find his roots?
The one starting point is the same that gave man potential for all experiences rather than beliefs in individuality that separates man from himself in trends or historical pretense of modern day.

If a religious man only believes in a story that fits his personality he may try to convince another to join him in his experience and then forget all others. God is not so limited to one experience but God can be found to support all experiences and all beliefs.
If you design God to fit any contemporary setting then his children are forced to believe that their parents experiences and examples are the only true experiences and they must forsake theirs for their parents. If this is to be done either go back to the beginning and the original parent or continually reinvent spirituality for each new generation and continue to separate the previous one from the emerging one.

One would necessarily have to unite all beliefs and ideas somewhere in the source of reality. Why deny simplicity to make it more complicated to fit a mind that is far removed from source to make source into complex illusions.

Here is probably the easiest solution. You cannot fix a problem from the state of consciousness that it was created. You would have to rise above it and then lead the deluded back to reality. In todays social structure authority strives to make you afraid and distrusting of anything that is not socially relevent. Social standards are broadcast by media and the beliefs passed down from one deluded generation to another.
You want to create an authority outside of ones sense of Self so that one has no ability within themselves to intuit reality?

QUOTE

But, contemporary people trust science rather than spiritual experience, that is why things must be proved scientifically.

Over 90% of the population believes in God but don't trust their senses because science breaks down sensory intuition into fantasy if it does not meet a repeatable standard that everyone can agree on. This points one away from what they know to accept what someone tells them they should know. This type of strict approach makes science spiritually debilitating.
Hey Hey
One can always "get in the lab" and try and scientifically prove stuff first hand. Then one wouldn't have to rely on the word of others. And one doesn't have to start with black holes, a good start might be to look down a simple microscope. Or, learn some math and try some proofs. And if one isn't up to it, then why not accept the word of peer-reviewed scientists? I mean, we drive down the road at 60mph not understanding everything about cars, but they work don't they? Turning to fiction is better?
Enki
QUOTE(rhymer @ Aug 01, 2007, 12:24 PM) *

...quote Lucid,

"Of course spiritual experience can be verified, it's just not very amenable to the scientific method. Would you deny your own personal experience even though science still can't explain it in detail? Even Descartes knew better. Spiritual experience, along with other forms of expanded or exalted states of consciousness, is one of the key discussion areas of this forum, which makes it very relevant. To blow it off as non-verifiable or less important than scientific knowledge misses the point in a big way."

I did not mean to imply that the experiences included in the list did not happen: I query that they are interpreted rightly.

Most of them could be hallucinations, but snugly fitted into more important or interesting sounding categories like 'Spiritual' or 'ghost', ESP etc.
I don't know whether these experiences really have a significance (except for the person having them), and certainly would not discourage investigation of them. I do realise that because they are inside peoples' heads investigation is difficult.


Quite right!
Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Aug 01, 2007, 02:03 PM) *

QUOTE
You put all in one sack. I want to know why. You should explain.

If a man starts from a beginning point or origin of self and along the way stops at many stations and after some time barely remembers a few places and experiences along the way, where does he find his roots?
The one starting point is the same that gave man potential for all experiences rather than beliefs in individuality that separates man from himself in trends or historical pretense of modern day.

If a religious man only believes in a story that fits his personality he may try to convince another to join him in his experience and then forget all others. God is not so limited to one experience but God can be found to support all experiences and all beliefs.
If you design God to fit any contemporary setting then his children are forced to believe that their parents experiences and examples are the only true experiences and they must forsake theirs for their parents. If this is to be done either go back to the beginning and the original parent or continually reinvent spirituality for each new generation and continue to separate the previous one from the emerging one.

One would necessarily have to unite all beliefs and ideas somewhere in the source of reality. Why deny simplicity to make it more complicated to fit a mind that is far removed from source to make source into complex illusions.

Here is probably the easiest solution. You cannot fix a problem from the state of consciousness that it was created. You would have to rise above it and then lead the deluded back to reality. In todays social structure authority strives to make you afraid and distrusting of anything that is not socially relevent. Social standards are broadcast by media and the beliefs passed down from one deluded generation to another.
You want to create an authority outside of ones sense of Self so that one has no ability within themselves to intuit reality?

QUOTE

But, contemporary people trust science rather than spiritual experience, that is why things must be proved scientifically.

Over 90% of the population believes in God but don't trust their senses because science breaks down sensory intuition into fantasy if it does not meet a repeatable standard that everyone can agree on. This points one away from what they know to accept what someone tells them they should know. This type of strict approach makes science spiritually debilitating.


Joesus please use normal language. My English grammar is bad but I try to make the stuff I am writing readable and understandable.

If people start to trust their spiritual experiences, then humanity will become a tool in the hands of very various domains of the so called spiritual world. If to follow your approach governments should establish political relations with those domains (if not already did). When the domains fight with each other humans become meat for cannons. Second World War was an example. German government went under control of certain domain. The consequences were very specific.

Please do not forget the case of Virginia Tech: the guy who put on one of his hands the phrase “Ismail Axe” methodically shot 32 people (3 bullets into each victim) and then shot himself thus raising the number of victims up to 33; in particular he shot 2 people in separate place (to flash in the news the number 2) and then the other 30 in another (to flash the other number); possibly it was done to carry some sort of message. If all start to trust their spiritual experience you never know what will happen. E.g. who knows maybe members of Al Qaeda are meditating as well and each cell gets orders during so called “Spiritual Experience”.

That is why, when it is already impossible to hide obvious things, it is necessary to scientifically to order them. Governments are too slow in matters of reformation. But science can make fundamental leap ordering the knowledge and developing protective recommendation to protect people from negative sides of random spiritual experiences. smile.gif Certainly that will confine the freedom to some extent, but the reliability of the Civilization will fundamentally increase.

I see very serious threat in the increase of spiritual experiences on our planet. Besides the new generation grown on the Harry Potter tales, definitely, INEVITABLY will become spiritually more proactive and nobody knows to what that number of small wizards can do with our world.

That is why science MUST order that concealed area of human knowledge because there is no other way out. Things changed irrevocably. That is why mankind should be moved up to some more safe and well shaped platform. Your type of Freedom will lead to Anarchy.

Enki
QUOTE(code buttons @ Aug 01, 2007, 11:42 AM) *

Back to topic you guys! Before my gut burts from laughing so hard!!! LMAO!!!!


You know it is such an Extraordinarily funny topic.
Joesus
QUOTE
Your type of Freedom will lead to Anarchy.

It leads to the support and growth of mankind to its greatest potential without the crutches created from belief that man cannot achieve for himself.

QUOTE
One can always "get in the lab" and try and scientifically prove stuff first hand. Then one wouldn't have to rely on the word of others. And one doesn't have to start with black holes, a good start might be to look down a simple microscope. Or, learn some math and try some proofs. And if one isn't up to it, then why not accept the word of peer-reviewed scientists? I mean, we drive down the road at 60mph not understanding everything about cars, but they work don't they? Turning to fiction is better?

The self empowerment of the individual to become part of those fragmented realities that it argues with and fights to protect itself from the illusions of possible self destruction is just that. Stepping into the natural experiences of enhanced senses that aren't sabotaged by distractions allows people to be what they are without a measuring stick to pit one experience against another and then value the person for their choices.

If a person is raised and supported in an atmosphere where there is no judgment that person becomes productive and imaginative. Most people are beaten down by puberty to fit into a box that is socially designed by dysfunctional paradigms. This does not have to happen, and it doesn't have to continue.

The spiritual nature of humans cannot be viewed under a microscope nor can it be measured in terms of better or worse. It can be discovered and nurtured or as it has in some aspects of societal beliefs, feared, scrutinized, judged and suppressed.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Joesus @ Aug 02, 2007, 09:47 AM) *
The spiritual nature of humans cannot be viewed under a microscope nor can it be measured in terms of better or worse. It can be discovered and nurtured or as it has in some aspects of societal beliefs, feared, scrutinized, judged and suppressed.
Why do you seem to be in fear of the "microscope"? Maybe it will enable us, eventually, to see that we are nothing special in no special place. I have no problem with that. Do you? huh.gif

When we see what we are - that we are all so similar and without deity, then maybe conflict might end and natural beauty appreciated through technological means. wub.gif
Culture
QUOTE(Joesus @ Aug 02, 2007, 12:47 AM) *

If a person is raised and supported in an atmosphere where there is no judgment that person becomes productive and imaginative. Most people are beaten down by puberty to fit into a box that is socially designed by dysfunctional paradigms. This does not have to happen, and it doesn't have to continue.


For those of us who have had fortunate environments to have that freedom I agree.
I agree that for those less fortunate it does not have to continue, however it would
be a monumental struggle against the boxed society they find themselves in.


Joesus
QUOTE
however it would
be a monumental struggle against the boxed society they find themsel

It takes a willingness to change ones internal programs from habitually listening to the voice of fear toward the potential that exists in everyone. It's certainly not impossible but very few seem to want to make any changes and so the ego continues to try and manipulate the environment to suit the personal to get what it can before its time runs out.

It becomes self evident that when one gives they get in return and often more than they give. That is the nature of universal law, however if fear and lack is the foundation of ones thoughts one rarely gets a glimpse of this reality.
Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Aug 02, 2007, 12:47 AM) *

QUOTE
Your type of Freedom will lead to Anarchy.

It leads to the support and growth of mankind to its greatest potential without the crutches created from belief that man cannot achieve for himself.


Can you provide (guarantee) reliable transition to that state without cataclysms.
Can you assure safe transition? Explain how you can assure the safety.

If explanations turn to be valid ...
Joesus
Can I guarantee one will make the choice to expand towards enlightenment and not towards selfish ambitions?

Actually I can say that there is only one possible solution for anyone of choice and that is ascend or die.... wink.gif

Anyone who has really become self realized has always worked to the beneficence of humanity.
That is a fact.

Can I assure a safe transition? No one has ever died from the process of enlightenment. There may be an occasional crucifixion or the enlightened may part from physical reality but that is not the result of making a change from selfishness to selflessness.

There is sometimes a bit of squirming that takes place as the ego fights for its limitations but that is generally proportionate to one predisposition to their desire to unite with God or stay close to ones personal beliefs in mistrust and fear.

Cataclysms are part and parcel to the ignorance and stress bound to the unenlightened not to the process of enlightenment.
Enki
In principle you are correct. But there are options. Options dictate strategy.

If everyone disclose the potential then what about the consequences?

The other case is if only the good persons can disclose the true potential, in other words only the worthy can find the Holy Grail.

But I am sure that even a small bit of that potential being revealed to many may cause very serious perturbations in the society.

I guess we need stable and positive development, and it is much more better.
Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Aug 02, 2007, 10:46 AM) *

Actually I can say that there is only one possible solution for anyone of choice and that is ascend or die.... wink.gif


Btw "ascend or die" approach is a pure classical 'Satanism' of the Angel of Excessive Light (Lucifer).
Too much light Joesus is a great evil. It burns everything.

So please do not joke in this way. I understand that humor, but some people may take it too serious. laugh.gif
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