For your information, check out:
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=14987
REGARDING THE FEATHERS OPTION, AND THE VALUE OF A COMPLEMENTARY AND COMMUNITY CURRENCY SYSTEM (CCC)
==============================================

As noted above, last November, I approached Mayor David Miller, of Toronto--then running for re-election--and asked him: "Are you aware of and do you support the The Toronto Dollar System which the FAMILY LIFE FOUNDATION and others helped to start in October, 1998?" http://www.torontodollar.com

I was pleasantly surprised that The Mayor wrote me a very supportive letter. In it he expressed his great admiration for all the pioneers in the CCC movement.

THE MAYOR REITERATED HIS SUPPORT, PUBLICLY, May 29, 2007
====================================================
Last Monday, May 29, 7:00 p.m., at a large public meeting at Trinity Anglican Church, near city hall, Toronto, Mayor David Miller reiterated his strong support for this new currency system. Check out http://www.torontodollar.com

The next goal is to promote this system, not only in Toronto, but throughout the rest of North America. There is no reason why this system could not work throughout the rest of the world.

Recently, the National Post --(an all-Canada Daily)--published a dialogue between Al Gore and Terence Corcoran, a widely read r-wing commentator on the political economy. In the column Corcoran attacks Gore's recent book on climatology. The climatological argument aside, I wrote the columnist, and the NP, to comment on the danger of having wings which fail to see that wings work best when they balance one another.
=================
Terence Corcoran
and the Editor,
The National Post:

Regarding the battle between climatological left-wing, right-wing ideologues (Gore versus Corcoran) (A19,Saturday, July 28):

This article prompts me to ask: What benefit does society stand to gain from the divisive game of wingism--"My wing is better than your wing"? May I remind readers that the root meaning of the word 'devil' is that which divides us.

THE DANGER OF DIABOLIC DIVISIVENESS
===================================
To illustrate this, I offer the following fable, which I think it is an original one:

PAY ATTENTION TO THE FEATHERS
Once upon a time there was a big beautiful eagle who had two powerful wings covered with strong feathers. In cooperation with the rest of the feathers, especially the humble tail feathers, situated right over the very important anus, the wings, directed by the head--the source of knowledge and wisdom--agreed to serve all the needs of the whole bird, including the wings.

However, one day, one of the wings--it matters not which one--for some diabolic reason, decided to do her own thing: "I will spread myself when I choose to do so" she said. "I will rest when I want to. What need have I to balance myself with the actions of my counter part, as long as I give him the right to do his own thing too."

Unfortunately, the wing made this divisive decision when the eagle was in full flight, high in the sky above the place where she and her partner had their nest. At the time, he was guarding their mutual eyrie and home to their very-hungry and new-born eaglets.

Tragically, without cooperative wings, which--with the help of the humble tail feathers--balanced one another, the eagle was no longer able to fly, majestically. In the full view of her shocked partner, she came crashing down to her death leaving him without a mate, and with the lonely task of raising the eaglets as a single parent. Sad.

[Does anyone know if male eagles, left without a partner, will actually raise eaglets on their own? If he abandons his offspring, the tragedy is made even worse.]

WHERE ARE THE FEATHERS-LIKE ECONOMISTS?
========================================
This calls for the development of thrid way to do economics and fully develop what I like to think of as a fully democratic and feathers-like approach to the political economy--one that is neither left-wing nor right-wing and takes into consideration the needs of the least among us.

THE CALL FOR A TRULY DEMOCRATIC CAPITALISM
==========================================
It also provides a way and the means of challenging the least among us to become democratic capitalists and wealth producers. How? By learning about and how to use what I call complementary community currencies (CCC).

[ Check out http://www.torontodollar.com Also look at the work of Professor Bernard Lietaer, MIT graduate and a world expert on the history, the nature and the function of money. http://www.transaction.net ]

Rev. Lindsay G. King
Intuitive economist
(905) 763-1125

Now, thinking out loud, just few notes to add to the mix. Some readers may be thinking this is all about "funny money".

FUNNY MONEY?
===========
I will happy to dialogue with, and to learn from, anyone who thinks that Complementary community currency (CCC) is just another form of "funny money". If you can convince me that it is, I will be glad to laugh with you. Now about some really funny money.

REALLY FUNNY FIAT MONEY
=======================
For a real and sardonic laugh, check out the story, nature and function of fiat money.

How many really know the story of how fiat money came, and continues to come, into being? And that it is created "out of thin air..."? as economist Paul Samuelson (MIT)--the first economist to win a Nobel Prize, in 1969--points out. [See Page 331 of the Canadian edition of his book, ECONOMICS. Then, over the next number of pages he gives a detailed example of how this works. He makes the point that the deposit is created by the bank and the public. Things get interesting when the bank decides that it does not have to keep 100 per cent reserves.]

If anyone can convince me that funny fiat money has any real and sustainable value, I am all ears.

BANKING CAN BE VALUABLE AND HONEST
==================================
Don't get me wrong. I am not against having a transparent and honest banking system. No modern society could exist without it.I am a firm believer that honest banking and the creation of real and honest credit, based on real and dividend-producing value, is possible.

But the problem, as I see it, is debt-based fiat money, with the following note on its paper notes: "This is legal tender".

By the way, I remember when the the note read, "The Bank of Canada will pay the bearer". Why was this promise removed for all bank notes?

QUESTIONS?
Does anyone know who gave banks the approval to make this change? And why?
When and why did this happen?
Was there any public consultation?
When a bank gives you a loan, does it loan you its money?
Or do they use depositors money?
What is meant by "the multiple expansion of deposits"?
What is monopoly banking? Chain banking?
What is fractional-reserve banking?
What role did the old goldsmiths and jewelers play in creating fractional-reserve banking?
What is the Bank of Canada?
Is it the bank of all Canadians?
Why is that one can't open an account in the B of C?
Why is the B of C not a private enterprise like the U.S. Federal Reserve System?

The above are but a few of the funny questions about the funny fiat system.

That's it, for now.
RevLGK
--

Am I expected to believe that we have no one in the BrianMeta family who is interested in dialoguing about the creation, nature and function of money, the life's blood of the political economy?

IF SO, I WILL LET THE MONEY ISSUE DIE, OKAY?

Money can be created and destroyed. Banks create money when they make a loan. Debtors destroy money when they pay back the loan. The creation of money expands the "money supply." In the USA, the Fed (Federal Reserve Board) regulates how much "leverage" banks can have on their assets in making loans.

The lesson from the bank collapse of the Great Depression was that banks need regulation to keep them from inflating the money supply by creating unlimited amounts of money. The rule is, last time I checked, five to one. A bank may lend only five times its hard assets (deposits or other collateral).

When you take a loan from a bank, they write you a check. Have you noticed? They never give you greenbacks. That's because if they only lent greenbacks on hand, they couldn't create new money. Writing the check is the money creation event.

Acording to the information in the movie Zeitgiest the creation of the federal reserve was due to some fancy manipulation by some wealthy political influence creating a system that prints money and the circulates it into the system with an interest charge attached, creating an immediate cost to the taxpayers to use the money in the first place.
Before the collapse of free banking and the use of Gold reserves to back the money in circulation someone decided to make loans available for buying stocks for pennies on the dollar with the stipulation that the loans could be recalled at a moments notice. The same ones who created the federal reserve system made millions of dollars worth of loans creating a huge bubble of wealth on paper then recalled all the loans collapsing the private banking systems then using political influence created a bill to establish a banking system that cost the taxpayers to support.
Now we pay interest on money printed and there is no real wealth backing the federal reserve note.
The next step is to create a North American money system similar to the Euro where the U.S. Canada and Mexico share the same dollar.

LGK: You're on the "money" , Rick. But is money wealth? In other words: In the creation of money--which, BTW, some bankers deny--do banks create any real wealth?

I am sure that you are aware that our money system is a lot more complex than it sounds. The process poses so many questions and has such an enormous social impact that it behooves each of us to at least make the effort to understand the basics.

Though I have been a student of the political economy for some time now I do not claim to know it all, and I hope that I am humble enough to always be open and teachable. Let us not be afraid to share what we know, and what we do not know.

THE IMPORTANCE OF UNDERSTANDING HOW THE POLITICAL ECONOMY WORKS
=======
Of course we need the help of experts in the realm of finance, but the social well being and prosperity of every citizen willing to work for a living is too important to be left in the hands of the experts, alone.

BLIND FAITH IN EXPERTS HARMS ALL OF US
====================================
In addition to this, all experts must be known to be people of good character, worthy of our trust and willing to be transparent and accountable. Good financial leaders are people who are willing to help us know the truth they know and willing to communicate it to is in a language anyone with the equivalent of a high school education can understand. IMHO, experts who use too much jargon, and too many code words are not worthy of my confidence.

WHY DO WE HAVE POVERTY IN THE MIDST OF WEALTH?
=============================================
Of course there are some people who will remain poor even in the midst of an abundance of wealth and opportuniity, but this not true for most people. Most of us want to contribute to the supply of wealth as well as having enough money to demand and consume it.

At this point, I have a strong feeling that much of the poverty which surrounds us and the stress and diseases that it causes, even in this land of abundance, is the direct result of what some people call "flawed and incomplete capitalism".

Could we, over the next number of posts, take the opportunity to see if we can uncover what are some of the flaws of capitalism. In addition let us make the sincere effort to contribute what we can to help it become more and more complete and sustainable?

Overcoming the flaws of capitalism requires government regulation by a government for the people. That was pretty much a done (new) deal after FDR, but during Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush, the deal has been undone.

We should start with "clean money" regulation for political campaigns. That's the fundamental point.

Next, we need fair trade regulation. We should block the imports of countries that don't allow collective bargaining (union crushers), have poor environmental protection, and exploit child labor. We should not descend to their level (as free trade is doing), but bring them up to our former level.

Finally, we should restore our nation's infrastructure, including bridges, levees, public health, and educational institutions.

As you see, these measures are oriented toward USA politics, but the principles apply universally. Become aware, informed, and then vote Democratic.

Rick, I like your comments. You mentioned Democrats? Are you telling us the Republicans are not democrats? What are they, autocrats?

The Repugligans (my name for the enemy party) are fond of saying "the USA is not a democracy, it's a republic." However, they are misinformed on this (as in everything else). The term "republic" comes from the Latin "Res Publica" which means "rule of the people." The term democracy comes from the Greek words meaning "rule of the people."

In the conservative view, there are two kinds of people, important people and unimportant people. Important people don't carry their own luggage, for example. Unimportant people can be enslaved without a thought.

In the progressive view, we are all equal. Nobody is better than I am, and I am not better than anyone else.

Which side are you on?

Here is some more on the Repugligan legacy:

"At the end of the day the record of this presidency - Rove’s presidency - is as utterly dismal as it is completely consistent in its dismalness. Turning a record surplus into a record deficit. Failing to defend the country against the 9/11 attacks. Failing to crush or apprehend the alleged perpetrators of that attack. Failing to win a war in Afghanistan. Launching a completely needless war in Iraq. Failing to win the war in Iraq. Destroying the American military. Failing to rescue an entire American city from destruction. The first president since Hoover to lose jobs on his watch. Wages stagnant. Gas prices doubled. Exacerbating global warming, the worst environmental crisis in human history, and undermining attempts by others to deal with it. Undercutting environmental standards on clean air and water. Leaving the Middle East in shambles. Shredding relations with historical allies. Producing the greatest trade deficit in history. Offering tax credits to corporations assisting them in exporting American jobs. Destroying legal and constitutional doctrines dating back as far as seven centuries. Allowing the assault rifle ban to lapse. Standing by while North Korea went nuclear. Tearing up treaties that have kept the peace for half a century. Undermining international institutions. And more, and more, and more."

--From "Karl Rove and the Damage Done" at

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/17/3225/

Rick, I realize that all great concepts can be spoiled by being taken to extremes. For example, absolute freedom can become anarchy. But I take it that, for you words like, 'social' and 'liberal' are not dirty words. Have they become dirty words for many Americans? If so, why?

Interestingly, in Canada, we even have a Liberal Party, which until recently ruled (Led by Pearson, Trudeau, Chretien, Martin) Canada, for years. Having given us "demos" (people) medicare and other social benefits, they liked to think of themselves as the "natural and ruling party". However, arrogance and the scandal in the Quebec sector of the party cost them, under Paul Martin, their throne.

The scandal? Certain Liberal leaders paid certain business executives--some have since gone to jail--who were working for certain advertising agencies, in Quebec, millions of dollars. The agencies were expected to work hard to help keep Quebec within our federation and out of the hands of the separatists, the BQ, the Bloc Quebecois--the only federal party confined to one province. I am surprised you do not have a similar party in Texas. BTW, certain agencies actually did no work for the money they stole.

Our socialist party is called the NDP--the New Democratic Party, which is often referred to as, 'Liberals in a hurry". The current ruling Conservative Party in Canada actually depends on the support of the NDP to keep them in power. This helps keep the Conservatives more in line with the wishes of the 'demos'--the people. Maybe there is something to be said for a multi-party system after all.
=======================================================
To educate my American cousins, may I be so bold as to ask you to look at:
http://www.primeministers.ca/
http://www.primeministers.ca/prologue.php
===============================
BTW, check out
Mulroney, who gave us "FREE (?)" Trade, was called "our American primeminister". He and Regan were close friends.
http://www.primeministers.ca/mulroney/quickfacts.php

From what you say, it would seem that Canadians are in better contact with political reality than most Americans, who have swallowed the neocon agenda, hook, line, and sinker. In that view, socialism has been equated with communist totalitarianism, and "liberal" has been painted as advocating confiscation of private property. Those are damned lies, but the Americans have come to believe them.

"Liberal" really means open minded. Open to new ideas. Open to change for the better. Not mired in the traditions of the past.

We should keep what works and fix the old time injustices.

Rick, you write I agree, completely.

The challenge is: Getting agreement as to what works, and what are some of the new ideas which will help us make changes for the better?

As I understand it, conservatism, ideally speaking, is about "keeping what works".
And, as you say, liberalism is about being open to all kinds of new ideas, or changes for the better. No wonder that Sir John A. MacDonald, the first PM of Canada, called his party The Liberal Conservative Party.

WHAT REALLY WORKS, ECONOMICALLY?
Even at the risk of being wrong, could we first, draw up a list of what we think works, economically? Have you any ideas?

Two option that I see:

A.) subsistance

B.) Pure capitalism

Now define "pure" capitalism.

NATIONAL AND CCC CAN BE DESIGNED TO WORK IN TANDEM
===============================================================
Would it be anything like what I call, democratic capitalism? This is where people would be free to monitize the goods and/or services they have to offer, and where the market they serve is free to create a complementary community currency (CCC) which would have only one purpose: It would work like a coupon. In tandem with the national currency, it would simple keep an account of the goods and services available.

We already have a cridit union system. It seems to me that credit unions are perfect places to start in the setting of of such bartering systems.

We could return to the "New Deal" of Franklin Roosevelt. That's been proven.

The problem with pure capitalism, and what has been shown to be true over and over, is that without collective bargaining rights, the working class declines to a level of subsistence with no rights and no hope. The populace is then divided into two classes, a master class and a slave class. This is what we struggled out from over the last thousand years.

Because people do not realize their power. A dollar is a vote. The more you produce the greater your vote. Those who gain power are those who contribute the most to society.

The problem with equating dollars with votes is that the wealthy make the rules in that system. History shows that such a system gravitates toward total domination of the working class. Regulation is needed to ensure fairness.

As an example of the need for regulation, walk into a grocery store and take a jar of jam off the shelf. Look at the label. It lists the ingredients in decreasing order of amount. You might see that there is more sugar than fruit in one jar, and the reverse for another jar. Now you can make an informed decision. Do you think the jam makers put those ingredients lists on the jars out of the goodness of their hearts? Hell no. We the people made them do it.

We the people do not need a government agency to make them do it, we simply need to buy products that inform us. There is no government agency that forces Silk to put "with added DHA" on their new soy milk, they did so, because the consumer desires a more healthful product.

The rich in this system do not gain more power persay. They may gain more material wealth, but money and power are two totally different things. Power is a state of liberation.

Waiting for a product to kill people and then have the "free market" put that company out of business is unacceptable in the world I want to live in. I left the Libertarian party because of that kind of fantasy land idealistic thinking. We live in a very complex world that requires pragmatic thinking.

It doesn't work BECAUSE we live in a complex world. When you take out all of the complications of our world, you are left with a just society founded primarily on subsistance; you eliminate impractical materialism.

It's one thing to say that everyone should just grow up and become much higher minded people. It's quite another to make it happen.

Flex, dialoguing until we understand one another, I presume you mean, 'subsistence', right?

Now define your terms, please: What is subsistence? What is pure capitalism? How does it compare to what I call, 'democratic' capitalism?

Sorry about my spelling I like to think of subsistence as a method of production aimed solely at satisfying needs not want.

"pure" capitalism to me is democratic capitalism. The consumer has the power, not the producer.

Now we are getting to the real root of the problem; human nature.

I believe that our underlying nature is founded on senseless destruction and intelligence.

Rick, about making it happen: is it not possible to give people a choice? IF YOU HAVE A BIBLE -- Tell me: What does Paul say in 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15 ?

Based on much personal experience, I began using this principle when I was the minister of a large Toronto church (1966-1994), which was near a subway stop. It had a high and visible tower. Because of this, my church attracted quite a number of ot of people looking for a "hand out".

Using the CCC system, in return for their being willing to offer a "helping hand"--to seniors in the area--I offered them a "hand up"

Guess what?

Some few accepted my offer. These we were able to truly help.

However, some many wanted something for nothing. Without any feeling of guilt whatsover, I gave them what they bargained for: NOTHING.

Do you mean where it says

"... shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way ..."?

I have not found the Bible useful so I stopped reading it. I decided to build a more relevant system based on simple, verifiable principles.

Paul is the origin of so much of the prejudice rampant today among the churchy types.

you mean our needs, not just our wants.

Okay, let us assume that it is possible to supply all our needs, locally. Then all me need is a monitized barter system.

IMHO, this is the kind of production and consumption system, which can make good use of a CCC system--a complementary and community curency system. CCC is a excellent way of measuring what things are worth. It is also a tool for keeping account of local transactions.

This means that transactions--for example, transactions involving the use of savings and how we can all invest in the future--will need to use

"pure" capitalism to me is democratic capitalism. The consumer has the power, not the just the producers.

What do you say about I Corinthians 13? There Paul writes of: 'Faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love."

NB: We are not talking about sentimental love; we are talking about "agape, or spiritual love"--the ability to will good, just like you do, under all circumstances.

There are often good things in any ancient writing. The problem with using scripture as a guide is that one must first develop a valid system of ethics and then filter the scripture based on that validated system. That's a lot of work. Better to just use the ethical system and go directly to politics and behavior.

For a filtering example, we should filter out the part where Paul says that homosexuality is an abomination and that all practitioners shall surely be put to death. Likewise we should filter out the part where Jesus says that salvation can be had only through him.

Again, good points,Rick. Looking back over my active ministry--and, now, as a re-directed one (I refuse to retire from life)--I think I must have been what is now called an "ethicist".

PASTORAL WORK CAN BE FUN
=========================
Looking back, over forty years, I feel I had, among other things, the happy and exciting job of being a practicing ethicist and media filterer. I didn't look on it as just "a lot of work", it was a joy. I still do it with the same feeling. I look upon it as part of the teaching and healing ministry. Good ministers are not just preachers

This means that I did not use the Bible, or any document, for that matter, as an infallible guide. When I read it from the pulpit it told my congregation how I read and hwo I wanted them to read the Bible:

HOW TO READ THE BIBLE
=====================
Read it like you would read, or listen to, any media. Some of it is true and qualifies as beautiful literature; some of it is propaganda filled with incomplete information; some outright lies intended to deceive, and some of it is nothing more than a pile of dreck. For those interested, this took the fear, the mis-placed awe and, for some, the feeling of boredom out of reading this remarkable collection of eastern literature.

THE HEALING MINISTRY
Above, I mentioned "the healing ministry". Let me give you and example of what I mean:
Currently, I am counseling and acting as a mediator, in a case before the Family Courts, for a person who earned a good living as a doctor. I met him about two years ago as he and I were watching our grandsons--both good hockey players--play some serious hockey.
As we became friends I discovered that, ironically, Dr. RB, the healer, was not well--physically, mentally or spiritually.

For all his long married life he lived in one unhappy relationship after the other, which we both agree has affected his mental and physical health. Things started coming to a head about five years ago. Quite a story, with criminal undertones. One year my senior, he is now facing a mountain of physical, mental and spiritual problems, including being sued for all that he has by his "bitter-half" So far, only the lawyers were winning. Lots of costly documents back and forth.

WHAT'S THIS GOT TO DO WITH RELIGION AND THE BIBLE?
=============================================
When he found out that I was a minister, that is, one with a holistic philosophy on life, one with a deep interest in the art of healing and, as part of the process, did some mediation work, he immediately opened up to me and asked me for help in getting his life sorted out, especially his court case. He made it clear that he was willing to pay for such a service.

As soon as he asked me for my help, I asked him if he was active in any church. He told me that he was a nonimal Anglican. To avoid conflict of interest, I asked him if he had any minister or church, now, to whom could turn, or has turned for help. His short answer was, "My church has not been of any real help...I haven't gone, for years." I left it at that. He immediately said that he was willing to pay for services I offered.

Instead of asking him for a fee, I told him about the regular weekly meetings of the Family Life Foundation, involving pneumatherapy, and of its connection with http://www.pathwayschurch.ca which uses the pneumatherapy approach--meditative, affirmative, positive prayer (MAPP)--every Sunday.

Pathways sacred gatherings are also about filtering the Bible. It is also about the getting away from the conventional theism with its idea that God is a personal and supernatural being who listens to and answers all our prayers . It is about getting rid of so much of the religious hocus pocus and dreck.

AS A FIRST STEP
I told my new client: "As part of my pneumatherapy with you, I invite you to come to the FLF and to Pathways. If you find it is not your cup of tea, that is your choice."

Dr. RB can drive his well-equipped van but he has to use two canes to support himself when walking. Despite this, he has come to the "sacred and healing gatherings", faithfully. His latest comment to me was: "I wouldn't miss it for the world...what a boost I get to my morale!"

In addition to the above, with the help of FLF/Pathways members, we got rid of a bad lawyer--one who told RB that he would not allow me to help--and we now have a lawyer involved who is willing to accept my being involved. As a mediator, I can be a hand-holder for RB and I can help make sure that all fees are legit.

BTW, if you would like to take look at the kind of dialogue we have at Pathways, take a peak at the threads which I have posted at:
http://www.pathwayschurch.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=2
=========================000000000000000=======================.

Not everything in the Bible is mistranslated or misrepresents the reality of Enlightenment.


This statement follows the "I and my Father are One" and all the information of being Christed or enlightened or in union with the Universe. He never said that salvation can only come through he, the man but through what he represented, being the son of God as all humanity is the son of God and the Self realization of being the image of God.
He also went on to say that the image of God is not the image of man in his beliefs but the image of creation with freedom of choice and the intelligence to create anything without limitations.

If you must filter you would have to approach his level of consciousness and then filter the mistranslations and the misrepresentations of Enlightenment displayed by minds that projected lesser meanings, otherwise you continue to distort the reality of every Sage ever living on earth and any real meaning of the Universe.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

When Jesus begins to speak of charity: 1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
He explains that he is a mirror of God, the Son of God, imbued with all the abilities of God but without the charity of a man who believes in suffering created from the idea of one that has and one that has not.

in the end he says:"
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Charity being service as God is in Service, to give everything a Father would give to his children in rightful inheritance. All lands and power over lands.

The paragraph: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"represents the awakening to inheritance of becoming an extension of God with all power over limitation.

Jesus explains that every man has the ability to awaken to this reality but as they see themselves as victims he sees them as the image of God with all abilities and no limitations. From the reality that there is no lack or one having something that another doesn't have, so his approach is not in service to their being victims to reality but recognizing they are creators and because of their freedom of belief and choice, explaining they are creating exactly what they believe they are capable of in an environment they believe is real.
He sees them with their absolute power but not tapping consciously into the awareness of that power.
As Such his greatest charity or service is to show them the the reality of that power or the way to their own power by living it in example.
Mostly the people of that time barely saw beyond the survival mode, and as such wanted him to be their king and their savior. He refused to be their livelihood and to take up arms against the enemies they created from their own ignorance, or to hang around (longer than it took to die on a cross) and be their lifeline when they had it in themselves to do everything he could.
Since no one can be forced to believe anything, or to awaken before they decide to awaken to consciousness he cannot give them something they don't want or aren't seeing as real
.
This is true surrender, service and charity that is not given from the ignorance of victim consciousness, compassion that is unconditional love with wisdom.

Humanity is as strung out now as it was then on victimization of self due to the belief in circumstance and the belief in powerlessness.
God has always been there in the charity of True service to allow the individual to awaken from the slumber it has chosen in the initial action that has created atrophy in conscious awareness.

This charity is the reminder that choices are self evident in the experiences of life and more important as you become aware of God/Self, and to be careful for what you wish for.

Everything you add to the dream even if you believe it will make the dream better, only reinforces the idea that the dream is real.

That is a valid interpretation regarding the loss of innocence but not the context of this particular scripture.

An open mind is not bound to specific action or interpretation, so definitive self analysis of my own innocence in experience would be limiting.

Posters: Take note of the new title I have given to this thread. While I enjoy some diversions, please try to divert within the purpose of this topic, please!

ECONOMICS--literally meaning the management of the household, stewardship.
==========
BTW, how many of you have a real interest in the field of economics?
Or have the "experts", with their lack a transparent term. their charts and jargon, ruined it for you?

Perhaps they have made it what Thomas Carlyle called, "The dismal science"?

Comments by expert and transparent economists and/or those who have done some reading in economics will be most appreciated.
===================0000000000000000=====================

I believe the topic went in the direction you took in seeking comments to I Corinthians 13 unless you were hoping no one other than Rick would comment on your question.

Yes, I did write, "... within the purpose of this topic, please!"

I certainly agree that charity (which translates the Greek, agape), which is love in the best sense of the word, very readily relates to good economics. It is not possible to have good economics without moral, ethical loving and charitable people, people who are willing to treat one another according to the principle of the Golden rule, which is much more than a pious statement.

BTW, have you ever heard of the brass-knuckle-and-jackboot rule? Do others before they do you.

BTW, 2, Adam Smith, who gave us, THE WEALTH OF NATIONS, was a devout Christian.

It is my humble opinion that the dismal science can become the science of peace, justice and joy. Just do a google on universalbartergroup and you will see what I mean.

With UBG we now have an economic syatem, a system which is tied in with our tax system in such a way so as to encourage barter trading in the same way that all trading is done.

As I understand it, the Canadian eqaivalent of the IRS (Our CRA--Canada Revenue Agency) is now willing to recognize tradeBUX as payment for taxes. This make economics a whole new ball game which brings the underground economy above ground to the benefit of all, not just the clever few.

http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10684

===========IS USURY THE ROOT OF MUCH EVIL?==========
From Tom Kennedy:

As one who believes it is I invite you to read the information posted at the UsuryFree Network http://www.cyberclass.net/usuryfree.htm

I also invite you to read the article 'UsuryFreed Trumps UsuryFreed at this
URL: http://www.cyberclass.net/usurygreed.htm

In addition I have complied a series of quotes about usury. These are
collected from the book 'Capitalism, Catholicism and Cooperativism'
authored by Estelle and Mario Carota, Summerside, Prince Edward Island,
Canada 1990

It is interesting to note that much of Estelle and Mario's research about
'usury' centred around archived documents pertaining to the Holy Office of
the Vatican. In recent centuries, the Catholic Church has become very much
involved in banking practices including exacting usury. In fact, in this
21st Century, the Vatican has its own bank and practically all the dioceses
are exacting usury as income from their investment portfolios and bank
deposits. What's going on here?

Rev Patrick Cleary from Ireland explains:

"It has been said that the Church has changed her doctrine on the subject
of usury. The fathers condemned usury with no uncertain voice; the Councils
time and time again pounced upon it; at Vienne the defenders of its
legality were dubbed heretics; Benedict XIV synthesized the traditional
doctrine; and all declared that for 100 pounds one may not receive 105
pounds.

Yet, here we, educated Catholics of the 20th Century not only
venture to take 105 pounds for 100 pounds, but declare that it is perfectly
legal to do so. What was heresy in the days of Vienne is heresy no longer.
Surely the Church has changed her doctrine - what need have we of
witnesses, we have ourselves beheld the change." Rev. Patrick Cleary,
Ireland, June 17, 1914

http://www.cyberclass.net
**********************************************************************
Just a few quotes about usury:

"The whole amount paid in usury, even when the sum has been paid regularly,
should never exceed the original amount." The Justinian Code, 527 A.D.

"Usurers are commom - if there were not such a multitude of usurers, there
would not be such a multitude of poor." - St Gregory, Contra Usurarios

"All rulers and magistrates knowingly maintaining laws that sanctioned
usury and that compelled debtors to observe usurious contracts are to incur
excommunication, and requires the legislation in question to be revoked
within three months. Since the true nature of usurious transactions is
often concealed beneath various devices, money lenders are to be compelled
by the ecclesiastical authorities to submit their accounts to examination."
Council of Vienne, 1311

"As Christians we are obliged in many instances to help our sisters and
brothers in Christ with a loan. Christ himself teaches this: 'Do not refuse
to len to him who asks you.' In most circumstances, there is no other true
and just way to help except through a loan contract. But, if we follow our
conscience, we cannot do this and seek gain for ourselves by charging
interest." Pope Benedict XIV, Vatican City, 1745

"Tend the flock of God . not yet for filthy lucre but willingly." St.
Peter, (1 Peter 5:2) St. Paul (1 Timothy 3:8)

"Come, you men of riches, bemoan yourselves and cry aloud over the miseries
that are to overtake you. Corruption has fallen on your riches; all your
fine clothes are moth-eaten, and your gold and silver have long lain
rusting. That rust will bear witness against you, will bite your flesh like
flame. These are the last days given you, and you have spent them in
heaping up a store of retribution. You have kept back the pay of the
workmen who reaped your lands, and it is there to cry out against you; the
Lord of hosts has listened to their complaint. You have feasted here on
earth, you have comforted your hearts with luxuries on this day that dooms
you to slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the innocent man, while
he offered no resistance." St James (James 5: 1-16)

"The so called prophets and martyers, as we shall plainly prove, collect
money not merely from the wealthy but also from the poor, the orphan and
the widow .. Answer me this: does a prophet dye his hair? Does he stain his
eyelids? Does he seek to adorn himself? Does a prophet play with tablets
and dice? Does he lend money out a usury? Let them honestly answer the
question 'may a prophet do such things or not' "

Apollonius, 2nd Century (History Eccelsiastical, Eusebius, Bk V, Chapter
18)

"The law prohibits a brother from taking usury; designating as a brother
not only him who is born of the same parents, but also one of the same race
and sentiments, and a participator in the same word, deeming it right not
to take usury for money, but with open hands and heart to bestow on those
who need. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata,Bk. 11, Chapter 18)

"It is incumbent on Christians not to receive usury. On the contrary,
Christians are bound to lend to such as are not likely to be able to
repay." Tertullian, Adversus Marcion, Bk IV, Chapter 17)

"Everyone is desirous of increasing his estate, and forgetful of what
believers had done before in the times of the Apostles, or always ought to
do, Christians with the insatiable ardour of covetousness devoted
themselves to the increase of their property. Among the priests there was
no devotedness to religion, among the ministers there was no sound faith,
in their works there was no mercy.

Very many bishops who ought to furnish both exhortation and example to others, despising their divine charge,became agents in secular business, forsook their throne, deserted their people, wandered about over foreign provinces, hunted the markets for gainful merchandise, while brethren were starving in the church. They
sought to possess money in hoards, they seized estates by crafty deceits,
they increased their gains by multiplying usuries. What do not such as we
deserve for sins of this kind." (St. Cypian, 251, 'De Lapsis,' Chapters 5 &
6)

"I have seen a sad sight, fine young fellows dragged to the market place,
that they might be sold to pay their father's debts." St Basil, Ps XIV

"Such a benefit is a fraudulent one, such kindness damnable. If you are a
Christian why do you seek a return for your idle money . if you are a
Christian I do not ask you to give as a gift, but I do ask you so to demand
back your money that you rob not the other - remember that he is needy, and
a poor man." St Hilary, (In PS. XIV. Migne, P.L. 9 col.307)

"It is the custom in the country to demand usury fro corn, wine and oil.
Thus in the winter season one gives ten measures so that he may receive
fifteen in the harvest time, justifying himself thus; is it not right that
I get a half-meausre when by my liberality the other has nine measures and
a half? Err not. God is not mocked. Did you give it to a prosperous person
or not? If he were prosperous then you should not have given it, if he were
not, then you should not ask it back as if he were." St Jerome (Migne, P.L.
tom 25, col 176-7)

"All usurers are murderers of the poor." St Augustine

"Lend to those from whom you hope for no restitution." St Basil

'Should any cleric be found to have taken usury, let him be degraded and
excommunicated. Moreover, if any layman shall be proved a usurer, and shall
have promised when corrected to abstain from the practice, let him be
pardoned. If on the contrary, he perseveres in his evil-doing he is to be
excommunicated." Council of Elvira, 305 A.D. (Mansi II, 9. Can 20)............

I cant really say that a new money system in America would bring to light any drastic improvements. I really agree with Rick on most of this. We are being ruled by the elite, our country is slowly being degraded to a third world country, and more and more Americans are blindly following our leaders, and sacrificing constitutional rights for "security." Take the Patriot Acts I and II for instance. These acts allow for imprisonment without reason, they allow for unreasonable search and seizure of property. Americans are being scared and starved into submission and most of them do not even realize it.

In Robert Anton Wilson's "Prometheus Rising" he talks about the 1960's "youth revolution" and how this terrified the ruling elite, and how he was surprised that they would actually "dumb down" the education system. The result of this change was Generation X. The most ignorant, depressed, and paranoid generation that this country has ever seen. Growing up in a lower class neighborhood and attending a lower class high school really proves this to me. My generation does not really know anything, and they do not want to know. Also in his book he talks about how we are still in the primitive stages of evolution and that conditions on this planet are quite brutal. The general violence of our society to date including wars, revolutions, civil wars, and the "undeclared civil war" on the predatory criminal class in every "civilized" nation keeps the first circuit of most people in an emergency state for far too much time.

He also notes that in 1968 a US Public Health Survey showed that 85% of the population had one or more symptoms that we would call bad first circuit imprinting or conditioning. These symptoms
included dizzy spells, heart palpitations, wet palms and frequent nightmares. This means that 85 out of the next 100 people you meet should be regarded as, more or less, "the Walking Wounded."

I see these results in my own family, society as a whole has degraded and our rights have been taken while we comfortably watch American Idol. I am just going to live my life as peacefully as I can and keep my nose clean to protect myself in this police state we live in. I never thought I would live to see this country fall apart but apparently its happening before my eyes. Wake up America.

Keep in mind, discordia, I am not saying we need to do away with the current banking system we now have. I am talking about a complementary system which is quite willing to work with banks and all moral and ethical business enterprises.

For example, the Family Life Foundation is a registered charity operated by volunteers with which I am involved. It is incorporated as a not-for profit business and has an account with the SCOTIA BANK. There we deposit gifts of cash. We can also accept gifts in kind (barter). Here, we work with UNIVERSAL BARTER GROUP.

To people from all classes and walks of life we offer consulting and educational services, counseling and fellowship programs, which reach out to the lonely, the depressed, members of dysfunctional families and any who have any kind of compulsion neurosis, addiction, including addictition to food.

FELLOWSHIP, CULTURAL, EDUCATIONAL AND SELF-HELP GROUPS
=======================================================
We encourage people, especially the lonely and depressed, to find a fellowship group. The FLF actually has one such group, which meets over the lunch hour. Churches, social , cultural, recreational and any number of public organizations are usually more than willing to welcome. For those without a church connection I always tell them http://www.pathwayschurch.ca Pathways is totally non-sectarian. There is no requirement that people be "religious" or ritualistic. We like people to be civil, social and interested in community building. We meet in a centre which seats about 150 peole, which is surrounded by a development designed--all on one level--to house seniors. Some of them have joined our fellowship.

JUST A FEW EXAMPLES OF COUNSELING:
==================================
Working with the Family Life Foundation, we have a growing number of volunteers helping in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA). Many became volunteers after they had been helped by the FLF. Naturally, to protect people's privacy, we can only give a general description of why they came and what they are volunteering to do. Of course to protect people's privacy we have to withhold personal information. Keep in mind that the FLF has been in service since 1974. Volumes could be filled with the many, many stories of the lives that have been touched in any number of ways.

# Sounds strange to say it, but at the turn of the 21 Century, my wife, Jean and I (both then beginning our seventh decade) spent well over a year working with a client--He was, ironically, an engineer planner--who was then 64, and driven to living out of his car. His cash crunch was the result of an unhappy marriage and divorce, and he was on the verge of losing his modest home and property (just outside the GTA) when he connected with the FLF. In the cold of winter we even provided him with shelter, food and clothing. Would you believe? His mother--a retired teacher who died in 2005--lived to be 102?

To make quite a complex story short: With the help of a savy volunteer--a property developer who knew his way round in the realestate business and the legalities involved--we at the FLF were able to prevent a foreclosure on his property and get him into a manageable mortgage program. His property is outside the GTA. I think he is now in his seventies. By the way, while he was with the Kings, he helped me do some extensive carpentry on the home where the FLF uses donated space.

# A more recent story is about two brothers, who were very emotionally handicapped when they first connected with the FLF about two years ago. One of the brothers was so paranoid that, even urged on by his much-improved brother, it took me many weeks to get him to come to the phone and, eventually, come and see me. They are now actively involved as volunteers. Both, among other things, are helping their ill and aging widowed mother go on living in the home she owns.

NOT JUST THE POOR
==================
It is not just the poor who come to the FLF for help.

# A well-known writer--once a victim of child abuse--is now helping street people and others who have been the victims of abusive situations. Her connections as a writer has led to the FLF receiving financial help from a prominent national and funding foundation. We can always use more.

# A prominent realestate Toronto developer, who came to the FLF because he needed help in bridging an emotional gap that had developed between him and a son, who is artistically (music) inclined and in his twenties. As a much-appreciated volunteer, he help us with the problem of forclosure mentioned above. In the Toronto area he has helped with developing the Toronto Dollar System. http://www.torontodollar.com
He has also helped in the setting up of a residence to help the youth, especially struggling artists, avoid having to live on the streets.

# We have a doctor of chiropracty/naturopathy--in his seventies, but still-active--who came for personal counseling about a family situation. This is on-going. Meanwhile, without any up-front fees, he offers help to all I send his way. With his experience and qualifications, he is very good at giving advice about matters of diet and natural rememdies. Since we have become aware of the failure and danger of the many of doctor-prescribed antibiotics--often over prescribed--well-qualified naturopaths are gaining more respect and acceptance.

Speaking personally, I benefitted from the help he gave me. It help me to overcome a very serious ear infection, in record time. My GP, who diagnosed the problem, said: "It could take three months and I may need to send you to a specialist." It cleared up in less than a month.

As a volunteer, I not only help keep the home office going I do a lot of personal counseling. I make a lot of use of the Net, E-mail and the phone. I love making tapes for people who want to stop smoking, or any deal with other compulsive habits.

To support the program members and users, if they have the resources, can pay for services using cash and/or barter. We are in the process of promoting the concept of barter with the help of
http://www.universalbartergroup.com
==========================================================
As I have written elsewhere: We need to pay attention to the writings of economic leaders like Professor Bernard Lietaer
http://www.transaction.net and economicist, Hazel Henderson. Check out http://www.hazelhenderson.com/ particularly her writings such as:
http://www.hazelhenderson.com/editorials/p...s_of_money.html

Yesterday's Financial Post, Canada, carried an article by Anthony S. Fell, former chair of RBC Capital Markets. In an article entitled GREED RUN AMOK, referring to the current global financial crisis brought on by the U.S. housing bubble, he said that "It will take years for the financial industry to regain credibility following this debacle.

This prompts me to ask: What benefit does society stand to
gain from the divisive game of wingism--"My wing is better than your
wing"?

May I remind readers that the root meaning of the word 'devil'
is that which divides us.

THE DANGER OF DIABOLIC DIVISIVENESS
===================================
To illustrate this, I offer the following fable:

PAY ATTENTION TO THE FEATHERS
==============================
There was once a beautiful eagle. It had two powerful wings. The wings were covered with strong feathers designed by nature to enable the eagle to fly. One of the wonders of nature is that the feathers on the wings of birds are designed to work in harmony with the rest of the bird's feathers, especially the humble tail feathers.

Keep in mind that no matter how strong the wings, without the use of the humble tail feathers, no bird is able to take off and maintain flight, essential to its total well-being. Tail feathers help the bird ascend, descend and change directions. Interestingly they are situated, humbly, right over the all-important anus. Everything birds consume, after it has been used to provide for their bodily needs, including energy, pass out the anus. What comes out is not just waste. It contains rich nutrients which it go back to the earth and water and become part of the food chain.

Usually, the wings of birds operate in harmony with all other bird parts.

But imagine what would happen if one day one of the wings--it matters not which one--became aware of itself and for some diabolic reason decided, egotistically, to do its own thing: "Now that I am aware and know that I know, I think that I will do what I want to do when I want to do it. I will spread myself out only when I feel like and rest when I feel like it. What need have I to balance myself with the actions of my other wing, as long as I give it the right to do its own thing, too."

Unfortunately, the wing made this divisive decision when the eagle was in full flight, high in the sky above the place where the eagles had their nest--the home to their very-hungry and new-born eaglets.

Immediately, without cooperative wings, the eagle was no longer able to fly, majestically. In the full view of its shocked partner, the eagle came crashing down to its death leaving the other without a mate, and with the lonely task of raising the eaglets as a single parent. Sad.

The moral is obvious: Without feathers, especially the tail feathers, which act as a guidance and a balancing mechanism, no bird can survive. A non-cooperative and a un-balanced approach to life leads to disaster.

Having just read your post I'm wondering what it is you actually think is going on in the world.
Surface appearances often seem revealing however if that were the case then everyone being master of the obvious would have simple solutions for obvious problems.
Wingism as you call it is not only symbolic of individualism but reflective of the ability to choose and project beliefs and ideas that may or may not be equal or of benefit to others but seem relevant to the ego and its attachment to personality and the personal universe.
Take yourself for instance. You present yourself and your history as a real idea, your accomplishments, your beliefs and political views, even the choices you make and your interactions with others. Wingism is just as outspoken regarding ideals, beliefs and relative to the understanding of the past present and future of those ideals.
The freedom of thought and expression be it by the ego of individuality and personality or by a group of personalities is still egoic when it is attached to personal beliefs. And in sincerity or even through radical attempts to distract others from their own ideas that are deemed as lesser than the ideals of one who speaks out toward a change in ideas and action, that freedom of choice and thought is expressed with the attachment of righteousness and reality.

I think there is much more going on than wingism as you describe it as a force to divide peoples and politics. I think that division is a reflection of the force within all individuals and their need to identify with personality.
Asking those around you identify themselves as left or right, are you sure you are asking the right question, and are you asking because you believe they take a position relative to your projections that they accept themselves as you do, as individual, egoic, with family, history and intention to do justice to personality, and humanity through belief?
This being a world of duality, is a playground for personal expression. Once one lines up with what is inside of them expression is the action that leads to reflection of that inner presence. How deep one goes often reflects the level of introspection.
One can idealize ones personal accomplishments, ongoing drama regarding action and thought about surface appearances, or dive into the unity of humanity and sacrifice the individualism of ego and personal recognition to serve the greater whole that is all of human spirit as a collective expression of conscious mind.

What is a mind like that is chattering away with 100,000 thoughts per day as some researchers say, and what is a mind that is focused and in the moment like. What does one or the other project? Are we as individual expressions of God as you know it not the reflection of diversity of thought and choice? Would God actually pick one idea over another as the ideal thought?
Is there perfection in diversity and extremism or is there perfection in unity of like mindedness or cessation of individuality and personality?
Is heaven on earth a utopia of egoic representation or one of spiritual representation? Are they one in the same?

To understand the nature of the ego one actually has to step outside of it to witness the complexity and the need to identify ones self with a one or the other for fear of losing ones self to nothingness. After all if One is not something then it is nothing, right?
Definition has to precede understanding of ones self and everything around them.

There is a very real force acting on humanity and it is not a political force, tho it invades politics at every level of personality and belief. The force acts itself out at all levels of morality which is tantamount to belief and that force is ego. How deep one goes with their identification and attachment to principles and ideals that are coming from some place inside, that is not the same place as another's ideals or beliefs reflects the extent of ones separation with any underlying unity in humanity. Once one separates ones self from another by their ideas, beliefs and attachments to individuality no union is possible, and the world is forever going to be a reflection of the threat to individualism and personal freedoms.
The need will them remain to live by example and teach individualism, to sometimes walk over others and their beliefs with the need to achieve personal goals that will hopefully change the world and align others with the greater personal goals and beliefs. A sort of right wing approach.
Or if you consider yourself a moral pacifist you might stand solid in your belief and withdraw yourself from participating in any kind of struggle so to perfect your ideals within your own control and unity of expression with those who have similar beliefs to silently grow in and amongst the struggling factions of right wingers so as not to waste time distracting yourself with political confrontation.

Then there might be those who are both or neither..... But then what would that look like?

Is it possible to see only perfection and opportunity for growth in every situation and to leave the distractions of negativity aside.
What is it that underlies ideals and identities and is there a purpose for reality as it appears and as it is reflected to us? Do we understand ourselves by finding what is wrong with life and discard it so we may find what is right, and if one searches for what is wrong to clean up reality would one ever reach an end other than the end of life after depleting our energies?

Guidance comes in many forms and ideals, everyone wants to be an expert and fears ignorance, even more they fear listening to guidance that would steer them in a wrong direction, or by memories of the past promise them salvation and then lead them to self destruction.

The question of guidance is one of introspection and intuition. That is something that is not taught in any political or scientific institution.

Thanks for taking the time to actually read what I wrote. Okay, J, now it is your opportunity to tell us: What do YOU think is actually going on?

Then we can compare notes and do some CT about matters--as Coberst likes to call it.

BTW, I encourage CT. I admit that I could be out on a wing--feel free to correct me--but critical thinking has led me try to avoid what I call "wingism"--that is, extremes. I like to think of myself as a humble, and contented tail feather, which is situated right over the anus .

The world is a reflection of people who cling to their anal position, be it contented or un-contented.
Unity is more of an idea based on personal belief than an active part of every thought feeling and action.

J, I am not sure what you are trying to say. As a contented tail feather I feel that I will only have a small idea of what you are trying to communicate to me when we both agree to practice CT and dialogue accordingly.

And don't avoid my question: What do YOU think is actually going on in the world?

I didn't avoid the question, evidently you didn't grasp the answer.

The world is a mirror for the collective consciousness of its inhabitants. There are many things going on and at different dimensional levels what can be perceived by one who is conscious, (I and my Father are one, conscious) is clear enough, and for those immersed in their illusions (Forgive them for they know not what they do) the world comes at them rather than from them. As I said before no two people experience the world the same, there are too many subtle variants in the personality and the experience of sense to exactly replicate the same neural pathways in thought and interpretation of reality. Even Twins who can intuit each others feelings do not think in unison, nor create histories of experience and expectations, or beliefs that are the same.

To speak about critical thinking and the ego is an interesting proposition, for to be without the influence of ego and its shadows of neural impressions, requires one to rise to a different level of consciousness, and it cannot be done by reason or by thinking about what is wrong with the world, or through any belief that there is something between the Self and anything of perception.
Unity of spirit and manifest requires one actually become the world they see. This is impossible without a clear understanding and experience of the True nature of ones self/Self. That true nature is the foundation of the universes and everything in it that has been or will ever be.

The world is a mirror of each individual as it sees personality or self, as it is for every human who can make a choice in its collective identity as a civilization.

Once the ego take a position illusion dominates perception.

Joesus' post, Apr 30, 2008, 08:34 PM BTW, J, my question was: What do YOU think is actually going on in the world?
THE ANSWER you gave was: And I still don't get. I think of the world, the universe, or the cosmos as an emanation, an efflux, not a reflection. IMO, it is the outflow of all levels of consciousness, including the unconscious levels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanationism
Then you add Can people ever be sure that they are ego and illusion free?