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Technologist
QUOTE
Maximus: Whose to say we are right? I mean 500 years ago it was so blatantly obvious that everything was made up of earth,wind,water and fire that should you question it - you would be outcasted.

We are no diffrent than we were 500 or 2000 years ago, alls we do is fix one problem and create another - call the last generations theories incorrect and come up with new ones of our own.


As if the past hundred years of epistemology were a half forgotten dream!

Start with Peirce and Schiller. Finish with Quinn and Putnam. Pour yourself a glass of water if the pill is difficult to swallow.
Lindsay
QUOTE(maximus242 @ May 24, 2007, 01:51 AM) *

This is getting rediculous, as I look through the board I see utter disregard for other peoples beliefs. We all have a right to believe what we want to believe and to think what we want to think. It's not fair to simply bully those with religious beliefs....

....I am getting concerned with the utter disregard for beliefs that is going on across the forum.
Max, I agree. Dare I say, an angel of GØD guided me to the following thread in which you and I wrote to each other, way back:

http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16947&hl=

Using the article in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics
this thread is an attempt to bring together the pros and cons we have been discussing under the general topics, philosophy, theology and critique--positive and negative--of world religions.

Joesus
QUOTE
As if the past hundred years of epistemology were a half forgotten dream!

Also from dictionary.com
Epistemology –noun
A branch of philosophy that investigates the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge.

Limits.?.Limits? We aint got no stinking limits!!...
Technologist
Current limits. Do the math, member.

QUOTE
Limits.?.Limits? We aint got no stinking limits


Keep telling yourself that.
Technologist
LOL, I had to come back to this thread because the pomposity of Joesus' last post is just blowing my freakin mind.

QUOTE
Limits.?.Limits? We aint got no stinking limits!!


So you're suggesting that we jettison epistemology, which is one of the four pillars of philosophy? In favor of what exactly? As I asked Maximus earlier, what is your agenda? Do you consider yourself a prophet, some visionary who has a better understanding of reality than all of the great thinkers that contributed to humanity's collective knowledge pool over the course of philosophy's three thousand+ year history?

As Sagan famously said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". So far you've produced NADA.


Another quote that comes to mind...

"Fools say that they learn by experience. I prefer to profit by others' experience." ~ Bismarck
maximus242
I am promoting listening to all sides of an argument rather than dogmatically beating down people who dare to have an idea that is other than our own.

My "Agenda" is simply to get people to start listening to each other rather than constantly fighting about the same issue, over and over and over. Instead of chastising Joesus, why dont you try to understand him? He understands science, but what do you know about what he follows? Before you argue against something, make sure you know what it is your against.

Great thinkers? what is it that defines great thinking, how can one logically seperate great thinking from poor thinking, who is to decide who is a great thinker and who is not?

Limits is a thing of perception. One can have percieved limits, just as I talked about before when discussing hypnosis. When the 6 second track record was achieved right after it happened other people started achieving the same thing. The reason is because they now percieved it to be possible. Do you honestly think people would believe us a 1000 years ago if we told them we know how to fly to the moon and build weapons so powerful they would destroy rome in less than a second?

Of course not! Same thing if someone from the future were to come and tell us all the amazing things they could do. We have percieved limits - but you can choose to take down those mental walls. Whether or not there are limits in reality isnt that important, whats important is that our reach exceeds our grasp. Forever are we trying to achieve what is seemingly impossible.

What you have to realize is that there are logically many things we are wrong about and do not know we are wrong yet. Who's to say that we cannot go faster than light? I know, I know, Blasphamy! right? Well, many of Einstiens thoughts about physics have already been replaced. I would assume its only a matter of time before we find a way to get around the whole faster than the speed of light ordeal.

People say alot of things, they used to say a computer would never weigh less than 2 tons...

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(maximus242 @ May 26, 2007, 05:01 AM) *
Instead of chastising Joesus, why dont you try to understand him? He understands science, but what do you know about what he follows?

Max, while I appreciate you coming to Joesus' defense in such a manner, it's unnecessary. Joesus is robust and I seriously doubt his feelings will be hurt by the exchange of ideas between him and Techno. Quite the contrary; The exchange has not degenerated into ad hominems or banality but has occupied an intellectually stimulating level. As for science, Joesus is not a scientist (though if I recall correctly, he may have been an engineer); his strength lies elsewhere. As for understanding him, that requires more than intellect can provide.
Joesus
QUOTE

So you're suggesting that we jettison epistemology, which is one of the four pillars of philosophy?

Not at all. But What you could do is take it out of the box. After all you were the one who said something about defining infinity.
In terms of relative limits you could look at the philosophy of now. The universe as it exists infinitely rather than in current perspectives based on limits of knowledge and perception.
If you refuse to budge from current limits then ask yourself who is in charge of expanding those limits?

Lets say you read all these intellectual and philosophical ideas made by other people and you say to yourself this makes sense to me so I will take a position that this is the way the world is.
How long will you decide the universe is as you perceive it before you add or take something from it and change your mind?
IF you are in control the universe shouldn't change until you decide but if the infinite is beyond your capacity to control it then it is much larger than you in your attempts to constrain it and yourself because it forces you to re-evaluate it and yourself on an ongoing basis.
Since humanity seems to keep producing greater vision there is something alive that connects these greater things that live in potential to humanity, sort of like a round earth existing prior to the knowledge and experience of the society that believes it to be flat.

If you separate yourself as an individual from humanity then you will see humanity as yourself and your personal experience, projecting your moods and your ideals onto it, seeking to squash anything that does not fall within your personal boundaries. This is the way the ego operates.
If you expand your self to include all of humanity and its potential then you would have to expand your vision and sense of self to include all types of behavior and personalities within yourself but being you see yourself as who you are by choice, you've collected habits and behavior patterns to your own liking.

I don't prescribe to an idea that your personality, likes and dislikes and choices are due to genetic influence unless you include the Tree within the seed idea linking the soul to prior considerations (Choices) to inhabiting the physical body. I'm not sure if you're willing to consider such an idea. So far I don't see any flexibility beyond your current insistence that we're born to die kind of thinking with a random personal agenda as a filler between birth and death.

Do I have an agenda?
I have thoughts and desires and they are constantly in a state of change. If I was to narrow desire to one thing it would have to be supreme fulfillment or Union with the infinite. That being the nature of the manifest, to return in its journey outward from whence it came.
Basically all seek to find the ultimate satisfaction and they do so by jumping from one idea to another like a monkey seeking the ideal banana. Just when you think you know what you want your mind sees something else and decides to include that and that leaves what you wanted before as something that may be inclusive but not to the point of excluding all other things.
All of life lives as a reflection of potential. You could take this tiny litte planet within the 400 billion galaxies that are proposed to exist and group them all together and let time unfold to express the nature of reality or God (The active part of infinity) to get a glimpse of who you are, or put yourself, your personal impressions, neural pathways, DNA sequencing and the boogers in your nose under a microscope and say this is who you are. That is the freedom you have to choose as you will.
If you apply the serenity prayer to freedom of choice, belief and will, then that would be something you cannot change in the relative as the reflections of the infinite are not limited to one single idea.
The courage to change the things you can would be the ability to move away from stagnation in identifying yourself with your boogers to expand your conscious awareness beyond the individual confines of the ego.
The wisdom to know the difference between the ego and the unbounded spirit... well you can't know one and not the other and make a wise choice.

There are a lot of smart and maybe wise thinkers over the past several thousand years, and you have been drawn to those you resonate with. We all are.
Basically the soul ripens itself on the tree of life as it progresses through time and space expanding itself in its sense of being but we are still all part of the infinite. As such we are really connected like fingers to a hand or limbs to a body. Atoms are not unlike small solar systems, life exists in the smallest of places and the largest of places and the tendency to narrow the vision is only a phase the infinite mind takes in following a thought. A thought within a thought within a thought within a thought creating multiverses, and time is the construct to imagine and bring forward those thoughts into experience.

Extaordinary thoughts come from the extraordinary. The need to conquer the extraordinary and mold it into time encapsulated boogers is from the fear the ego has in losing itself in the infinite.
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