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Plato Demosthenes
Hello! I was wondering if anyone could help me with a theory which I have been working on.

An axiom is defined to be a string of symbols phi a, phi b, phi c, and so on. There is nothing which is an element of a symbol. The union of all the symbols of the set of axioms must be finite. Call the union the alphabet of Q. Now, earlier I stated Q to be the set of all items which satisfy the axioms. That makes no sense if the axioms are just a string of symbols, so we need to introduce a “meaning” function. This function isomorphically maps a set of symbols from the alphabet to an item y. The item y is defined as an item/concept either in this universe or derived from something which is in this universe, or is derived from something that is derived from something that is in this universe, and so on. I term this property being an element of degree n of the universe, where n indicates how many times the “derived from something” is iterated. In other words, y must be something not 100% abstract – somewhere along the way, it had to be derived from something real. For our purposes, a universe is defined as any thing which responds to a “mind” ,i.e., Turing machine. The Turing machine receives its input from the universe, and its ouput alters the universe. Thus, the universe is any permutation of anything whatsoever that is consistent with the given Turing machine. Anyway – Q is thus the set of anything isomorphic in some sense to y. Furthermore, There has to be at least one Turing machine which is an element of Q. Now, what I am attempting to prove is that if we know that a mind M is an element of Q (say, if Q is the set of all minds) that the mere fact that M fully believes that the abstract formulation a.f. (a set of axioms) is the set which Q is based on, and that we know both the equations of M and a.f., then we can derive what the actual axioms are. Here is my idea: M maps his perception of the universe ( an approximation of some sorts based on the actual state of the universe) to an “idea” (some string of symbols). The truth function maps strings to [0,1]. And equivalent maps a string to another string with the same meaning (note that it is reflexive). So, we know what all of these functions map to – thus we can find their inverse. So, because of M’s belief, we have T(M(a.f. is equivalent to Q))=1
M(a.f. is equivalent to Q) = Inverse of T(1)
a.f. is equivalent to Q = Inverse of M(Inverse of T(1))
Now we are stuck – or are we? We have equivalent expressed in a different form the rest. So, change it to Equivalent(a.f.), which is the same as Equivalent(Q). Thus
Equivalent(a.f.) = Inverse of M(Inverse of T(1))
a.f. = Inverse of Equivalent(Inverse of M(Inverse of T(1)))
Now we take the set of all beta which could take place of a.f. in the equation. Call the set Y. We have established that Q must be an element of Y. However, it must also be an element of all beta which satisfy beta = Inverse of Equivalent(Inverse of M^2(Inverse of T(1))), where the two indicates iteration (Call this set Y2.) This is true because M thinks that he thinks that a.f. is equivalent to Q. In fact, Q must be in Yn for all n. Therefore, Q is an element of the intersection of Yn for all n. It also must have M as an element. So, we have greatly limited the possibilities already. It is my belief that for any a.f., there will only be one possibility for Q – but I cannot prove it, try as I might. I would greatly appreciate it if you looked over what I have so far, and then give some tips for what to do now.

Thank you very much for looking over this! I promise that it is all much easier to understand with symbols wink.gif. I myself can barely understand it with the words! I hope that you will be able to help! Bye!



lucid_dream
I would suggest simplifying the problem; i.e., starting with a 'toy' universe, and work through actual examples to clarify, to everyone including yourself, what it is precisely that you are talking about and whether it makes sense.
Hey Hey
I found this very confusing, particularly when I eventually thought I had grasped it only to find out that it could also show that God might be explained similarly. That really scared me, but maybe because I was under the influence of sumatriptan at the time. I also found that reading it backwards was less confusing, but the anesthetic effect of the dreamlike state it put me in probably helped here!
Plato Demosthenes
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Apr 18, 2007, 08:29 PM) *

I would suggest simplifying the problem; i.e., starting with a 'toy' universe, and work through actual examples to clarify, to everyone including yourself, what it is precisely that you are talking about and whether it makes sense.


Well, that actually is what I did. Maybe I should have posted all the steps I used to get the idea, but then it would have become more of a short story rather than a post. Which parts need to be clarified the most?
Plato Demosthenes
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Apr 18, 2007, 11:20 PM) *

I found this very confusing, particularly when I eventually thought I had grasped it only to find out that it could also show that God might be explained similarly. That really scared me, but maybe because I was under the influence of sumatriptan at the time. I also found that reading it backwards was less confusing, but the anesthetic effect of the dreamlike state it put me in probably helped here!


How could it be used to prove the existence of God? In all seriousness, could it? If it did, then the logical contradictions caused from "God" would show that clearly the argument was false at some point.
lucid_dream
QUOTE(Plato Demosthenes @ Apr 19, 2007, 12:55 PM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Apr 18, 2007, 08:29 PM) *

I would suggest simplifying the problem; i.e., starting with a 'toy' universe, and work through actual examples to clarify, to everyone including yourself, what it is precisely that you are talking about and whether it makes sense.


Well, that actually is what I did. Maybe I should have posted all the steps I used to get the idea, but then it would have become more of a short story rather than a post. Which parts need to be clarified the most?



i.e., starting with a 'toy' universe.


Note also that axiomatic approaches are likely limited by Godel's Incompleteness Theorems.

Plato Demosthenes
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Apr 19, 2007, 02:03 PM) *

QUOTE(Plato Demosthenes @ Apr 19, 2007, 12:55 PM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Apr 18, 2007, 08:29 PM) *

I would suggest simplifying the problem; i.e., starting with a 'toy' universe, and work through actual examples to clarify, to everyone including yourself, what it is precisely that you are talking about and whether it makes sense.


Well, that actually is what I did. Maybe I should have posted all the steps I used to get the idea, but then it would have become more of a short story rather than a post. Which parts need to be clarified the most?



i.e., starting with a 'toy' universe.


Note also that axiomatic approaches are likely limited by Godel's Incompleteness Theorems.

Would it suffice to give a possible example of a certain Turing machine, set of symbols, axiomatic system, etc. that explained my idea?Or should I go through each step I took to get to my current idea?
lucid_dream
preferably a particular toy example worked out in detail
Lindsay
PD, I would like to know more about YOU, and: Why did you choose your
online name. Why do I have this feeling: You have no clothes?

You ask
QUOTE
Would it suffice to give a possible example of a certain Turing machine, set of symbols, axiomatic system, etc. that explained my idea? Or should I go through each step I took to get to my current idea?
What the heck is your "current idea"? Much of what you ask is still written in a foreign language, to me. I have little or no idea what you are trying to teach us, if anything. Simplify, simplify, simplify, puleeeeeze!!!
trojan_libido
You said Phi hehe, cool hehe, awesome hehe.
What are you trying to prove by the way? That consciousness was built gradually from binary mathematics?
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