It might be relevant to point out, that bringing anything that doesn't fit into a relative box to a consistent condition and then to build a relative box around it would be elusive but more importantly insane.

Certain things might seem self evident, such as your name being Tim, (after having mentioned it more than once) and no one having an experience contrary to that.

No matter how many NDE's are reported the personal experience of someone who hears about them may not include any spiritual insight or experience of their own.
Someone once said you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, being that the horse will make the decision from its own experience of whether or not it is thirsty and likes the source of water.

Out of body possibilities would seem to be a subject regarding the spiritual aspects of the mind not bound by the physical body. To lead the intellect to a threshold or boundary that it believes it cannot cross will not necessarily allow it to believe there is anything on the other side if it has no experience or if it isn't willing to stretch beyond the boundaries of the box.

In the Spiritual Teachings of history the relative boxes of the intellect are constructed through belief, they exist because of the consistency of thought and experience, not because they must but because they can exist and someone chooses to reflect that limitation in thought and experience.

The barriers between the physical and spiritual cannot be broken if the intellect refuses to accept anything different and so there has always been a gap between the spiritual and physical world in the intellectual understandings and relative boxes of human beliefs. This doesn't mean the barrier is real it just means it is made to be real in the mind.

An adult lives in a different world than a child, but it does not mean there are two worlds for the child and adult coexist in perception of time and space. Children have built fewer beliefs in their patterns of thought than most adults and are less likely to say something can't be done out of habit and the experience of reinforcement of habitual thought.


If you go to a foreign country where there are different rules and habits you will find cultural barriers that would seem to differentiate the two countries experienced and separate them but if you step back far enough you will only experience a rotating sphere with a civilization in progress or lack of...

The nature of life as it is contained within the individual is like a set of clothes worn while visiting a container of thoughts and beliefs. The nature of the spirit is without the limitations of its clothing and so to look for the essence of the thoughts while wearing the clothes would be similar to trying to find yourself in the jeans you wore last year. You are what you are always or what you are while wearing the jeans or what you wear now.

You could try to isolate yourself to a single moment and say this is all you are, but you might find yourself experiencing something different in another moment in time.
Consciousness is much more than a set of conditions and experiences and to build a device in a relative world to exceed its limits of being is sort of like the search for the grail. Immortality is what powers the faith in humans to seek proof of the afterlife and to squash the fear of death. But consciousness that is immortal already lives without death and so to stand on one side of the fence and imagine the other is the imagining of illusions.
You yourself have created both sides from a power of greatness far beyond the illusion in the first place.

It's like climbing down a ladder to a basement and forgetting the upper world, and then trying to imagine what the upper world looks like and feels like while totally ignoring the fact that you descended in the first place.
While convinced that you and the basement are real you attempt to resurrect the upper world in the basement with the tools that only exist in the imaginary basement you created.

It's definitely the long way around the barn.

To whom it may concern,

http://vehram.com/highband/index.html

In the spring of 1994, Vessen Hopkins uncovered an external energy array,
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Most importantly, we ask you to help spread the word. Feel free to forward
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The more people who know the more enlightened we become through the spread
of knowledge. This is the discovery that proves life after death and the
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Thank you for your help and support,
Sincerely,
Public Relations Team
-vehram.com

Note: This email was sent to a hand full of individuals and institutions we
felt would be interested in receiving this correspondence. If you feel you
have received this transmission in error, simply reply to this email with
the word remove in the subject line and you will never receive any further
contact from us. Thank you for your support.

vehram.com
300 Sunset Dr
Hooks, Tx. 75561
prelations@vehram.com


Thank you,
Tim

It seems to me that it might be based more on illusion and wishful thinking than on reality. The Website is quite vague and seems to be wanting to sell something. Quoting from one page:

"What is the nature of the after-life? In the simplest answer, it's whatever you believe it is.

The only law in spiritual reality is that thought creates reality. Anything you can imagine is possible."

I knew before finishing Tims post that there would be a book for sale - honestly!
Am I psychic?
Not at all, but I open my mind to new ideas quite freely when I am sure that my capacity to detect falsehoods will prevent me from falling into mental traps which are perversely seeded by so many who are willing to accept anything which seems interesting or who wish to line their wallets.
I have experienced many out of body experiences which were most realistic. Disappointedly, I have not witnessed a single OOB experience.

I am quite happy to put them down to my fertile imagination (or that of Nessy which I have named my subconscious).
Of course, this is my opinion, and cannot proved or disproved, just like religion and energy arrays (or at least the interpretation of them).
It's a good topic though for discussion and realisation of the incidence of acceptance of the ideas!

My subconscious is named Rick. It's not a separate thing.

Oh I bet it's been called a few other names..

Here's something not for sell,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_All

Thank you,
Tim

I think the Western mystical tradition(s) tend to read into experience more than can actually be justified by science. Enjoy the divine feeling and promote love, peace, tolerance, and understanding, but don't think there exists anything supernatural. Aren't we enough?

Dear Rick,

I'm an introvert, so it does not matter one way or another with me, but I would think some people might be interested.

Thank you,
Tim

The plot thickens...

Then let's get mystical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the...g_to_John_Lilly

I decided to visit a neuroscience forum, and started to read this thread because it had so many posts. I must say I am disappointed…. This thread belongs with religion/spirituality as someone has mentioned. Time and again people have mentioned that there is NO EVIDENCE of things like OBEs, NDEs, afterlife, aliens…. These are HUMAN-MADE-UP CONCEPTS. Not to say that people do not have weird experiences that they may classify as OBEs or ESP; but in reality these experiences have scientific—physical explanations (just as chemical imbalances due to drug use lead to hallucinations). There is nothing “magical� about the observed occurrences. There is no way a person can travel out of his/her body because a person is a physical entity “flesh and blood� (structure/function is biochemical that builds up into the macroscopic person we observe) and an “OBE experience� occurs when certain areas of the brain are acting up creating the perceptions (like a hallucination). Similarly, the idea of an afterlife is silly when you consider that a person is a physical entity that after death disintegrates. In context of afterlife discussions, people usually focus on a person’s personality that is retained in the “soul� after death. However, personality arises from the PHYSICAL biochemical structure/function of the brain. The classical example is “Phineas Gage� –If you have not read about him, I strongly encourage you to at least google it.

I have to admit, I used to be fascinated with ESP and other related topics, I would read a lot about the different phenomena, but this was before I build up a solid base in biology, chemistry (biochemistry), and physics and statistics. Looking back, I realize that I searched out information and used it as CONFIRMATIONAL BIAS for my beliefs, while discarding any criticism. With so many people writing their opinions on the internet, it is important to distinguish credible sources from opinions.

Dear Blue Green,

If for any reason you do not understand why this is not possible, it is because you have not asked the right questions. I took the time to read about "Phineas Gage", and that has nothing to do with this topic.

Thank you,
Tim

I agree with bluegreen and so have move this topic from the Neurosciences board to here, as it seems to be connected to a "Mindset" and I can't decide where else to put it within BrainMeta. I had thought "Religion" due to the afterlife component, but there is not necessarily a connection between OOB and religion or God.

If you believe in God, God is connected to everything by default.
Then again it doesn't appear this topic has anything to do with meditation either.
And mindset..I guess it depends on the person.

How about you create a topic heading that says subjects I personally don't believe in or endorse but hey I can't control my universe completely so I guess this is where I'll allow you to exist.

The trials and tribulations of being a moderator in charge of everyones best interests. Kinda like playing God.

I am a god - look left!

Actually, I was just looking to best place the topic and not make any criticisms over those I made in an earlier post. We have to have a little order here to make it workable.

To whom it may concern,

Thank you for all your input so far on this topic, and I hope to talk to you more about it when I get back from a vacation.

http://www.near-death.com/jokes.html

After a preacher died and went to heaven, he noticed that a New York cab driver had been awarded a higher place than he.

"I don't understand," he complained to God. "I devoted my entire life to my congregation."

"Our policy here in heaven is to reward results," God explained. "Now, was your congregation well attuned to you whenever you gave a sermon?"

"Well," the minister had to admit, "some in the congregation fell asleep from time to time."

"Exactly," said God, "and when people rode in this man's taxi, they not only stayed wake, they even prayed."

Thank you,
Tim

Thank you for reading my thoughts,

How do you feel about us always having a back up plan with a topic like this?, just in case you find your self in an out of body afterlife situation some time in the future?

Thank you,
Tim

Would it be sort of like in the movie Beetlejuice?

From my own experiences and from what I have read, a more appropriate title for this thread would be out of mind experiences, and communication is possible!

You did not answer on my question btw: http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=13&t=17990

"difficulty communicating with the written word."

I will be the first to say this is true, and that is why I need a situation to talk about it, not write about it.

I am not trying to re-invent the wheel here.

BrainGate has already established that it can work. I just feel it is a better tool to be used for what I am trying to do. I know it is a lot better than a toaster.

All I am really doing is taking their idea one step further.

In baseball they call that following through

I believe that the core of BrainGate has to do with friction and math, and the difference in where the placement of their sensor must be in both situations.

In humans next to the skull, but it will be out in the open for potential out of body afterlife patients of BrainGate.

My plan is to get the patients to a plan situation to try an experiment from the inside out of space as we know it now.

Are we inside something bigger than we know?

I don't know, but I believe my idea is a common sense one for trying it, because we can expand off of my free Idea, by adding more bells and whistles, but we at least have a starting point.

Have I ever seen a ghost?

No

Do I feel we need more research into out of body experiences?

Not as far as trying to make them happen. We already have 60 million people on this Earth having one at some point in their life. I have already been there and seen it first hand, and I seen enough to understand what our best chance might be in that situation, as far as trying to communicate to one another.

My inner thoughts assure me, that if we can get this going, and start talking about it, we will make it happen.

Think of my idea as a puzzle, we have all the pieces we need now to put the puzzle together, everything else from there is just helping the percentages, because we started at zero to the idea, but after other factors being added over time, it makes this idea look better.

I saw a show one time about this math guy, who talked about helping your odds on a possibility.

Example:

He said if somebody told you that they just looked out the window and saw a pink elephant, that they was just trying to pull one over on you, but if all of a sudden you heard circus music, the chances of them actually seeing a pink elephant is now better.

I have no music to help my odds, but I would think the fact that I have been there, and the other 600 million people who will have it happen to them as well, is a good sign, when you take into consideration that we live inside of energy, and energy can not be destroyed.


I believe when I was in an out of body situation, that this idea would be our best option.

The machine communicates with thought, the only thing you will have to communicate in an out of body state. would be our thoughts.

We will ask the patients of BrainGate if they would be interested in trying this idea, and if they would do it for free.


We will be counting on their experience with the machine.

Some people donate parts of their body after they die, all I an asking them to do is go and try and play video games on this machine sensor. Some people get all the good jobs don't they?

We will play out a plan a head of time expecting the worst, just in case something happens unexpected and we have to try the idea sooner.

Expect the worst and the worst will never come.
Don't expect anything and that will be what you will get.
I paint a quick picture to get this ball rolling for free, and then I have no doubt that others will even build off of that.

Example:

We might decide that we want them to try their hardest at curtain times, so we can save on staff help of the machine.

Expecting the worst, that they can't make out words at first, and changing the way the room looks during curtain times, and we can talk about that in more detail later, as with anything to do with this topic.

I am only asking for 24 hours after they die of natural causes to try this idea, and that is only if the patient is willing to try the idea from the get go, in other words it will only be in their their wishes to try this.

We are already paying taxes for the machine and research right now, so we should be able to have a little say in the idea, and it is something we need to check for Homeland Security any way, just in case it can work.

Example: If we can do it, any country can do it

If we don't try, then we are just giving another country the opportunity to try it or not.

They say that you or me can not buy a BrainGate, but why do we have one in China?


Humans who are focused on something can do great things, and I also feel the patients will take this idea to great heights, if we support it correctly, and support them everyday for what they could be doing.

If we do my idea, and I can see no reason why we should not try, then we surely need to support these patients a lot better than we have been supporting our troops over seas, regardless how we feel about that situation as well.

If the inside of energy, or anything to do with energy could be destroyed, or if we did not have so much open space in the invisible force of clear space, and air was just air, I would not think my idea could be possible, but it is not like that.

This idea is still an option, and we should at least follow through with the option, so we can take it off our to do list if nothing else.

Some talk about others who have believed that their was something else out there as I am speaking and took their life for what they believe.

My idea does not reward anybody who takes their life as anybody who will get a free ride with this idea.

We will only be testing with the patients of BrainGate, until we have worked out all the things that science wants to see, and understand.

Bottom Line::

It is a wait and see free idea based on focus with a plan.

I hope this help answer some of your questions,

Tim

I believe the only way this idea or any idea will work, is by supporting it 100%, until you make it happen, or you decide to place it on hold, until more can be done to decide it's out come.

More details:

I will need an opportunity to bond with the patients of Brain Gate, and see if they would be interested in trying my idea.

If one of them or more would like to try it, then we do the things we need to do, to help them with their efforts, but they have to be on board with the idea.

Red tape to what they are doing now, will need to be tweaked just a bit, for such a experiment like this, and there is always some type of red tape.

My role will be in charge of making the operations of this idea work.

To train the patients on what we are expecting them to do.

We will be giving them pass words that they can use in this state, so we can measure it.

The main thing the patients need to do right now, is what they are already doing, and that is getting better with Brain Gate.

The patients experience in this field will be part of the key.

The patient knowing a head of time where the machine will absolutely be waiting for them in this situation will be the key.

I am also counting on this field of science, to even be better at my moment of truth with this research as well, and what ever new things they are using will only help my idea as well.

Since some of the patients of Brain Gate might be people who have had near death experiences, that their chances of already being in this state at one time or another would be very good, and if that is not the case now, I would expect it in the future, making them even more experiences to the situation, not that they have too.

This idea is also counting on more support as it gets closer to happening, giving the patient the type of energy they might need to make the connection.
Why is the patient so important?

This give us the opportunity to try and place somebody in a place that we can not find at this time, or if we have, now we have somebody in that situation to verify it once and for all.

Will you see anything when it happens, other than what you will see on the monitor?

No, this is not going to be a visual thing for the human eye.

Will we watch the room for Orbs and cold spots?

If that is what you are into, or you feel it can add to helping us find out the truth.

I am betting that afterlife thought can touch the surface of what we want them to do, a lot better than us trying to find them. i believe the odds are a lot better if we have a plan, just in case, instead of doing nothing, just in case, when we should just focus on taking it off our bucket list and move on, because it is free and it is operational easy, compared to other things in life.

What other type of details would you like to know?

I believe that we live inside energy, and energy can not be destroyed as science saids, and I hope this idea of mine will support science theory by making it work better than what I am expecting at this time.

All that I have just spoke of comes right off the top of my head, but like any idea, it is only as good as the effort you place in it.

We could sit here all day and assume why it might not work, or why it will work, but the idea is practical, and it can be done for free, so why not try it?

I am also counting on the fact that the 60 million people who will have an out of body experience at some point in life, is just part of my bigger picture, because just like wet dreams, they mean something, and this something has aways been a constance in this field, so just maybe, out inner energy thoughts does have a plan when the body gives out, and we just need to play out this idea and see if we are closer to unraveling this mystery with what new tools we have to work with.

Where could we be in a year?

The patients agree to the idea, and I drive to Boston and train them, then they continue to live their life like they always have.

Where do I see it after 100 years if we are still focused on it?

What other parts of my idea would you like to know about?

What has been my biggest challenge yet?

Trying to explain the concept from start to finish.

This idea is not about ME, this idea is for you, please don't sell this idea short, because if I am right, and I might be.

This is the best way I know or see at this time, that might have the best chance of working.

Communicating back to humans in this situation is what my idea is all about, and trying to do it with what we have too work with and nothing else.

We could find out once and for all how good these mediums like Lisa Williams really are, or will God or an evil spirit might answer the first call?

What ever you think might happen, or could happen in your worst scenario, will have it's chance, but if we don't like the results at that time, we can always unplug the machine.

I hope this help explain any questions you have, but if you still do, please fill free to respond.

Thank you,
Tim

I heard that Harry Houdini would try to make contact from "beyond the grave." It didn't seem to work, and if Houdini can't do it, then it's not likely that anyone can.

Harry Houdini was focused on magic, and making money, and even though he was very good at what he did.

I don't think that has any bearing on if this idea will work or not at this time in our history.

Please fill free to answer this question if you can.

What is the average life span of humans?

Tim

On the contrary, after enough frauds sufficiently pissed him off, Harry Houdini was very focused on exposing fakes in the spiritualist medium business.

The average life span of a person in the USA is about 70 years. People don't leave their bodies when they die, they cease to exist. Wishing for more than that is just that: wishful thinking. Overcoming a reluctance to face reality is a mark of maturity.

"Harry Houdini was very focused on exposing fakes in the spiritualist medium business."

What was in it for him to do this, other than they were taking a bite out of his business. My idea is free.

"The average life span of a person in the USA is about 70 years. People don't leave their bodies when they die, they cease to exist."

Please feel free to explain why you feel this way?

They say on average that 600 million people on this Earth will have an unplanned out of body experience at some point in their life, now if you take the average life span of a human at 70, and you divide that into how long they are alive, what number do you get?

Tim

Harry Houdini got pissed off at the media because he wanted to believe he could contact his dead mother. In every case, he found the medium was attempting to fool him.

Why do I "feel" like I know something about life and death? Because I have seen how religionists prey on the natural fear of death. How is it that a person can receive an unasked for gift of life and them claim that a finite period is not enough for him? Many are given this miraculous gift yet demand and expect infinity. How ungracious. The irony is they will never know how wrong they are.

I did not ask for infinity, I just envision it in a way that it can be measured, and I know how we can do it for free!!!

I have empathy, interpersonal skills, and self control.

What would it hurt to try?

and to think I was the only one focused on this issue.

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/sbd07.htm


Check out my space pictures if you get a chance. I will be getting new ones from time to time.

Thank you, Tim

Yes, many are hopeful. From the Esalen page:

"Whitehead’s metaphysics can make fully intelligible: Stapp's quantum mechanics, psi phenomena, and the subtle worlds, all of which are needed to make the personality’s survival of physical death a meaningful possibility."

It's already pretty well established that "psi phenomena" don't exist, so "survival of ... death" is effectively ruled out.