As one who believes in dialoguing and communicating with others, until we possibly understand one another, for better or for worse, I offer the following:
I believe this because I believe it can lead to rapproachment--the preferred result--or to a necessary parting of the ways--that is, agreeing to disagree, agreeably.
In this spirit I quote
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
1. In the spirit of communicating, effectively, it would be helpful for me if I had an example of this so that I could take care not to offend again.
2. What do you perceive are "my" beef areas? And what is an "unacceptable" beef?
3. No problem. Give me an example, or two.
4. No need, unless Shawn want to comment. He knows his comments are always valued and welcomed by me. In all this, I am very flexible and very willing to accept any rule meant to encourage effective and positive communication.

HERE IS A RULE WHICH MAKES SENSE TO ME: If any one starts a thread, that person, in my opinon has the right to tell me, for example: Your response is out of place, here, Lindsay, and does not fit in with what I have in mind.

If I got this response I would be very willing to remove my comment, immediately, and add my sincere apology.

Brain Meta arbitrations--I love it

22% (125) of Lindsay's posts have been in the topic "What is God?". Lindsay has expressed a clear primary interest in theology, as is apparent in his "interests". Lindsay's other "interests" include, but are not limited to, pneumatology, psychology, somatology, and economics.

Philosophy is defined as the "love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline". There is a vast similitude which spans Lindsay's interests, and that similitude is philosophy. Since philosophy is defined as the pursuit of wisdom, it is safe to say that there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" in philisophical dialogue.

Why would one take part in a philisophical dialogue, if the questions posed can never be answered? Well, it is apparent that when one takes part in dialogue, they are attempting to eaither a.) be pursuaded to question and/or change their beliefes, or b.) pursuade others to question and/or change their beliefes. Why do I participate in discussion on Brain Meta? I participate, because I wish to be a part of a dialogue which alows me to challenge my own beliefs, and lend a new perspective on some issues so that others may muse on fresh thoughts. The goal of a philisophical dialogue is not to determine right or wrong; the goal of a philisophical dialogue is to come to a fusion of horizons.

Hans-Georg Gadamer’s account of dialogue embraces the possibility of dialogue with texts, takes dialogue to be the model of language at work, and considers dialogue successful when there has been a “fusion of horizons.” As Aristotle once said, "it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." May we all entertain one anothers thoughts, and take from others a new perspective. Philosophy is not a debate, but a dialogue, and we must keep it as that. So let us take from others what we will, and lend our own thoughts in hopes of attaining some greater good; a fusion of horizons.

I think it is a wonderful thing that I at 17 can communicate with Lindsay, soon to be 77; a 60 year difference in perspective~ Lets not just agree to disagree, but rather agree that we are in the pursuit of a greater good--one in which ALL opinions/perspectives are valid and welcomed.

Flex, I offer you my total, positive and unconditional Love. Thanks for your input.

I am sure you will understand me when I add: I offer the same kind of Love to all of you who are open and willing to receive it.

BTW, have you read any of my STUFF about which we can agree to have a healthy argument? And, when I say this, I am serious.

I must check. Have you written anything in INTRODUCE YOURSELF? If not, why not?

The "STUFF" in this thread? If so yes, if not then no~

Flex, I did not find anything in IY by and about you. Go ahead, give us some info!

I agree, we are in pursuit of a greater good.

What would you like to know? My life is an open book--you just have to decide which chapter you would like to read. I mean how could I open the entire book when I still have chapters to write

Anyone down for Flex Q and A go right on ahead. I will answer any questions no matter how personal 100% honestly~

Begin at the beginning: What is your first memory of yourself? When did you know that you were a separate person, from your parents?

I am sure there are earlier memories, but the earliest that pops out right now would be when I was 5. I jumped into a creek and onto a broken beer bottle. It cut through my tendon, and I had 144 stitches. I remember being at the hospital, and getting the stitches removed in particular. I guess the reason this memory stuck, is because I still have the scar I do not really remember when I really began thinking for myself. I have always gotten in trouble at school ever since preschool, so I imagine I must have been thinking for myself at that point for sure, but that is a little late in life. The next earliest memory of any significance, would be my fathers first manic episode~

His first episode, was when I was 5. I remember walking into the kitchen and next to the fridge, there were probably 7 various empty alcohol bottles. The only bottle that distincly stands out in my mind was Jack Daniels--I remember I thought the bottle was very attractive (I still do). Then I remember a few days later, I had a fish tank, and he went and grabbed one of the gold fish that my brother won at some carnival, threw it on the floor, and killed it. Then the next time I remember was the cops coming, and I went in the living room, and saw my dad crying. Then a few weeks later, my dad was home and things were more or less back to normal. At the time, I thought the mania just came out of the blue, or was caused by lack of sleep and drinking, but it turns out he was taking cocaine on a regular basis as well.

Those are my earliest memories~

Any one feel free to chime in on the Flex Q and A

Nobody knows the trouble I seeeeeeee...Nobody knows but meeeeeeeee.

I don't see any trouble, just events, so nobody knows the trouble I see eaither because it doesn't exist

You and your father? How did you relate to one another? Who else made up the protagonists in the world of you early childhood? Where did you live? And, other than people, what was that world like?

I actually got along really well with my dad when I was a kid. He worked two jobs (for the City of Redwood City, and starting his own construction company) so he was never really home before 10 or 11pm. He used to take us to work sometimes, and Ronnie (my brother) and I would go into the creeks with him and help clean them out, or take a ride in the street sweeper at like 6am before school. We also helped him on his construction projects, and he would teach us to weld etc. In my childhood I always viewed my dad as something of greatness, and admired him. A lot of that was due to my mother (a highschool english teacher), who would take the burden of truth upon herself to shelter Ronnie and I.

I have a sister or rather a half sister, but she ran away from home at 13, and I didn't see her again till she was 18--then she went to college, so I only saw her maybe 10 times in the next 4 yrs. Now she lives near us and works for Lockheed. She really isn't a part of MY family. She tries to be now, but she is just a fake person (and I can't stand that she works at Lockheed and is proud of it...).

Life was really pretty damn good. I can't complain about my life at all~every experience good and bad has taught me more than all of my years in school. I mean my dad had manic episodes when I was 5, 7, 12, and just a few months ago, and each time I have grown drastically as a person (unfortunately after each episode, my dad became more and more incoherent).

When I was young I was well fat. In 8th grade I was 4'11" and weighed 180lbs. I was made fun of on a daily basis, and really had no friends. My brother who is a year older than me joined the wrestling team, and would come home and tell stories about the coach. I knew I had to meet the coach, and join the team. Over my 8th grade summer, I lost 60 lbs in anticipation for meeting Coach (he was already a legend in my mind so I couldn't go in as a fat lard). I wrestled 118s that year, but broke my collar bone in the begining of the season. Going to wrestling practice meant so much to me, that the day after I broke my collar bone I went to practice, and tried my best to participate. I ran 5 miles, not in the best time, but I tried my hardest. Coach Ben Parks has been one of the biggest influences in my life thus far. He taught my moms PE class back in the day, when race riots were taking place, and he was the only one who could stop every kid dead in his/her tracks. He also runs his age in miles for charity every year--well he does alot more than just that; just google his name, and you will see I am sure.

So to summarize, the key players in my life in order:
My Brother Ronnie
My Mom
Coach Parks
My Dad
no one else~

There is a song about my dad up on my brothers myspace right now if you want to check it out. Just click the "click me" in my signature, and listen to Heros Die

When I clicked on the HD link you gave, I got sound. However it was too fast for me to understand the words. It sounded like the chipmunks. Something not right here. I have to have a 'puter guy check this out. Maybe it is the fact that I am using the Linux operating system. It does work for some, but not all, sound-containing messages.

Would it be too much trouble for you put the words of the song here?

umm this is sort of it I guess--typed out really fast. Keep in mind this was written when he was 14 so it isn't really representative of his songwriting abilities

Maybe you're a tree whos leaves stay
or maybe you go where the wind blows
all I know is I'm right eaither way.

Every word you spoke was subtle
so I never gave you one rebutle
because somehow I knew you meant what you said

It's like I spoke to you
It's like you spoke to me
you know we need eachother
there thing we built could last forever

sometimes we watch out heros die
and we don't know why they left us so young
sometimes we watch out mirrors cry
and we don't know why they left us undone

I've learned that I can live without you
I've learned that there are things about you
which I knew
which I chose to hold in.

I've seen your eyes when they're glassed over
your charcoaled lungs malignant fire
desire keeps us holding on tight

I am now everything good that you did
I am tossing out all of the things you kept hid
like the scars on your knuckles
the way that you chuckled
when the bottle made way for it

Thanks. How do you interpret these words?
================================
BTW, here is my take on heroism:
In my opinion, it is a mugs game, an illusion, to live in the false hope that we will ever be saved by systems or institutions--whether they be religious, political, educational, scientific, military, whatever--run by so-called "heroes". Most real heroes are ordinary people who accept personal responsibility for life as it is.

I grew up in glory days of the comic-book heroes--the 1930's--Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, etc. I actually had all the early Action Comic books. Then came WW 2 comic-books about war "heroes". Of course the enemy was always depicted as looking like ugly villains. Our soldiers were all handsome.

By the way. I noticed that Superman, etc., never volunteered to lead us to a quick victory. Nor did God. And all the armies involved had chaplains, of one kind or another, who prayed for victory. Many German soldiers had the motto: GOTT MIT UNS --God with us--on their army belts.

All this, including the pain and tragedy in my own family, taught me not to waste my physical, mental and spiritual energy looking for a Superman, a Superwoman (Yes, there was such a comic book), a Batman, a Gene Autry, a John Wayne, a messiah, a saviour God, a prophet, a political party, a president, or a primeminister who will come in and save us from the "enemy". The real enemy, I discovered, is the enemy within.

It has been a struggle, but over the years I have learned to look for heroes who are part of the pain and the struggle with us, those who inspire us, by example, to do it, physically, mentally and spiritually, ourselves. IMO, Jesus was like this. For me, he is not the great exception, but the great example. And there are others.

This why I highly recommend the link posted by Trip about the latest new from Stephen Hawking, one of
http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pag...ticleID=2506662

The site announces: "Stephen Hawking says he hopes to go into space in 2009. He announced "This year I'm planning a zero-gravity flight and to go into space in 2009," he was quoted as saying in the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

Hawking is 65 and one of the best-known theoretical physicists of his generation. Despite the fact that he suffers from Lou Gherig's disease and can only speak with the help of computer technology, he plans to be part of, "a two-hour, suborbital trip some 140 kilometres above the Earth."

I have his bestselling book "A Brief History of Time" , which I do not claim to fully understand. However, I do feel his central thesis--based on his groundbreaking research on black holes and the origins of the universe--is right: that space and time have no beginning and no end. It fits in with what I say in my signature: GOD and the Cosmos are one and the same.

Hawking has warned that the survival of the human race depends on its ability to find new homes elsewhere in the universe because there's an increasing risk that a disaster will destroy Earth.

I will add--and I would like to say this to Hawking: Let's not build that future on the basis of fear for the future of the human race, but rather let's work on building a faith, hope, just and love-filled human race capable of launching off into space, if necessary. Perhaps from there, as heroes all, we could, and will, become knowledgeable, wise and good enough examples enough to be instrumental in preserving a disaster-free earth. I wonder what his response would be?

Flex, this could a theme for one of the books I feel you will write.

Flex, it sounds like you live a very interesting life.

If you don't mind divulging more information, I am curious about one thing:

What led to your misanthropic attitude?

The first half of our lives is ruined by our parents, and the second half by our children.
-Clarence Darrow-

Or

You cannot fix a problem at the level in which it was created.

It is actually kinda odd--I really have full faith in humanity. I mean I am certainly cynical at times, but I think on a whole I would not say I have a misanthropic attitude (misanthropic meaning I distrust humanity right?). I love my life, everything about it, no regrets. I have total faith in humanity, but I don't trust the government. I don't think the government is very representative of humanity. I think if the vast majority of government was taken out of the equation, humanity would be much better off. i.e. if true capitalism could exist.

Oh and Lindsay, as for my interpretation of the lyrics, it is pretty straight foreward and simple~ Growing up, I looked at my dad as a "hero" as most kids do (or so I think?). I greatly admired him, but as I grew older, I realized he was just like everyone elses dad sitting on the couch drinking a beer and watching football--nothing heroic about that. Granted he was doing some other things as well, but it is really just that tipping point when you realize your parents are not the greatest people in the world, they are just people.

"I am now everything good that you did
I am tossing out all of the things you kept hid
like the scars on your knuckles
the way that you chuckled
when the bottle made way for it"

Once again very straight foreward. It is just about taking my perception of my parents, and the greatness that I once saw, and leaving the bad to try and develop as an individual.

I don't know about you, but my parents sure didn't ruin the first half of my life~they made it what it is, and I am very thankful. And as far as children are concerned, I can't wait. Nothing would make me happier than raising a family.

"At your age it'll make you laugh but one day it'll make you bloody cry!" - Sir John Mills in The Family Way (1966) ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060395/ ).

Have you taken an economics course? You would probably find it very interesting.

I mean lame highschool economics, but that doesn't really count My job is one of the best econ classes out there though~

The first half of our lives is ruined by our parents, and the second half by our children.
-Clarence Darrow-



You cannot fix a problem at the level in which it was created.

Lol what kind of editing was that? I can't even follow what the hell I was saying

Once again, a life is not a problem, a life is a life--it is what you make of your life that is important; I wouldn't change a single thing about my life. Certianly I cannot fix a problem at the level in which it was created, especially in this case, since there is no problem but just events~

Then you accept politicians as being equal with your Father, who you love.


Can you love someone and not trust them? And someone who is not trustworthy do they misrepresent humanity, and how do they do that?

Are you the same in front of everyone?
Would you tell your mother how great it is to get high?
Would you tell your children that you get high?

If not why?

Obviously politicians are no better or worse than my father. No person is any greater than another. I respect a crack adict as much as I respect the president, as much as I respect Sadam, as much as I respect my mother.

I love my ex girlfriend, and I don't trust her--I have faith that she will do the right thing, and she does for the most part~ I do not think any individual represents humanity, they just represent themselves.

Obviously I am not the same infront of everyone--why would I be?. If I am in school, I am in an academic environment, and thus do not talk about say my sex life. I am honest to everyone if that is what you mean.

I smoked with my mom just a few days ago while we were skiing. My mom knows I drink. She knows I take shrooms. She is there to lend her life experience, and let me live my own life. I would certainly let my children know the pros and cons of marijuana, and let them make an informed decision for themselves.

Do you? Are you merely entertaining the idea, or do you practice it?

Either way, I respect you. Diversity is one of humanity's greatest characteristics. (IMHO) Therefore, we should respect it.

I would say I practice it, I treat all people basically the same. If they deserve respect, I show them respect. If they do not deserve respect, I don't show them respect.

I met a homeless man who went by the name of "smokey". He sat outside all day every day, rain or shine playing his guitar just trying to make a living--I showed him the utmost respect;I took him out to dinner, and had a nice conversation with him~ I have met many other homeless individuals who were strung out on all kinds of drugs and I showed them no respect or sympathy.

So you treated the one who need nothing from you with kindness and the ones who needed everything from you with indifference...

How is this the same?

Both individuals were HOMELESS--they both needed something from me; one man EARNED his money, the other provided no service. One man earned a free dinner--the other earned nothing~ Totaly fair. Anyone who is providing me a service will be justly compensated...

The one who earned your respect performed for you.

The other, who was lost in the addiction, could not perform so like any dog owner you didn't reward the dog with a treat.

Completely fair... You give according to what you get.

Exactly; I am a really selfish individual

you'll grow beyond that. Give it some time. And I won't say "I told you so" when you do.

I hope I never move beyond it~ Why would I do something that hurts me? That would just be silly. Why do I spend my free time teaching disable kids how to swim? Because it makes me feel good about myself. There is nothing wrong with that, we both gain something; I am just not lying to myself acting like I am doing selfless cherity.

Giving from fullness rather than giving to fill yourself because you need something is a completely different experience.
If you never want to change your experience from a place of need and fear of being hurt to a place of complete understanding of life and fullness of life from the inside out, then you won't.

It never hurts to give without getting something back unless you are like the addict and can't live without the fix. Generally speaking you will surround yourself with like minded people who will love you as long as you keep giving to them. Then when you no longer give them what they want they will abandon you because you are undeserving of their attention.

I gave an example of what you consider "giving without getting". It is just a lie. You play it off like you are not getting anything, but you are, whether you like it or not--realize it or not. This brings up a good new topic~ Is there a such thing as selflessness? If so, please give an example.

ego-death

What like you die? That is the only time I have ever seen someones ego die~I guess your ego dies when you are in a coma

ego-death does not imply death of the body. Ego is what many misidentify with. We are not our egos. Egos are a delusion most are born into, but often we see beyond it at some point.

Ego is defined as "self". If you no longer have a sense of self, you don't exist. The only instances of ego-death reports I can find are individuals who are on high doses of LSD. To not have an ego, one would not be able to posess memory, as all memories contribute to who you are. An individual with no memory can have no cognitive capacity. Once one has experienced ego-death, they would essentially be a rock--or dead.

There appears to be some merit to ego, in the sense that many are born with it, perhaps because an individual's survival is strengthened by their perception of their individuality. But this sense of individuality is an illusion. It might not seem obvious to you, but I believe, in time, you will see and experience it.


I can tell you with certainty that this is false. Without memory, we have no personal history and sense of personal identity, but this does not imply cognitive deficits. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Alrighty, answer me this... Do you have a perception of the world? And was this perception derived from your senses?

Do lucid dreams derive from your senses? Is creativity enhanced during lucid dreaming? Without the perception of this world, without our senses, we are left with something analogous to a lucid dream (but not quite), where many constraints and prejudices of the mind are lifted, where creativity reigns, and where additional powers of mind, the variegated wonders of consciousness, and the depths of the Self reveal themselves. You are all that and more. The misindentification with the ego limits your capabilities and your experiences.

The ego is like an insular little island that simply recognizes "itself" and "other". That is it's universe; But when you realize that these boundaries between "self" and "other" are illusory, that they are the product of ego and false identification, then that is the beginning of wisdom. You may fear the identification with "other", just as many find the thought, and occasionally the experience, of ego-death to be terrifying. But it really isn't. Your own personal history is like an effervescent dream in many respects. You have to take it to the next level, and only you can do that.

In all of my lucid dreams, I have several earthly senses--sight,sound,smell,taste, but not touch. I can not feel in my dreams. I however have never GAINED additionsal senses in my dreams, which leads me to believe that my dreams are nothing more than a product of my subconscious, as I gain no additional powers. I believe what you are talking about is imagination, not ego-death.

Do you percieve the world through your senses? Do you have the capabilities of thought? If you do, you have an ego. If you percieve the world, I know for a fact that you have a different perception than I do, and thus you must have an ego. If you can think, you clearly have learned progressively, and continue to learn each day, and thus have an ego.

I do have an ego, but I regard it in a pragmatic manner, as a useful tool on occasion, but nonetheless, don't identify with it.

Ego implies a sense of separation and individuality. Without it, why would you believe that thought would be impaired? If anything, operating under the assumption that you are your ego impairs your thought and limits your experience.



No, I am not. Ego-death, if anything, greatly potentiates the imagination and creativity. Yes, you can have imagination and creativity with ego, but I expect that it will be enhanced without it, and in addition, will open up new experiences and new vistas in your consciousness and awareness.

I guess what I was trying to say is that ego is a synonym for culture--all that an individuals does, produces, knows etc. There are no limits to ones ego. The limits are confined to the imagination of the individual. If you can imagine it, it exists.

I understand what you're saying. But I can say that if you experience ego-death, you will wake up in a spiritual sense. More precisely, that what you will experience is a spiritual waking up, a type that is unimaginable with ego in the way. What you choose to do with this awakening and how it changes you are interesting topics to consider.

I don't understand HOW you could possibly seperate Self from ego...I would love to understand, but try hard as I might, it just wont happen, and so long as I am trying it wont happen apparently. Could you give like an actual description of what it is like to the best of your abilities? How would you observe ego death? If you are percieving ego death through your senses, you are percieving it through your ego.

this may be a good place to start:
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3770&hl=