Just curious.

As scientists, scholars, investigators and researchers..

Do you believe in the 9-11 conspiracy theories?

A couple months ago I posted an article where a general of Caeser staged an attack by barbarians on his men. This caused them to be infused with a y rage and go off to kill the barbarians. No barbarians ever actually attacked, just men dressed up as them.

Sun Tzu also describes the same tactic in his The Art of War

911 is very similar in such respects.. If they did do it, they would simply be doing good military politics.

I think the most compelling evidence about a 911 plot is the media coverage, when have you ever seen such heavy media coverage? Most of time when a t.errorist attack occurs, people never even hear about it. The media is controlled by the military branch known as PSYOPS. So the question has to be asked, why did they choose to allow this story to go global and silence all the others?

Also the actual deterioration of the Two Towers is highly questionable, the way they fell is not how they should have fallen according to engineers. The only way for such an occurance to of happened is if there was a second explosion from within the tower..

Furthermore the t.errorists who were responisble had a rediculously easy time getting through security. They were on the 'black list' and when authorities tried to detain them, they recieved a call from washington telling them to let the men go through.

If washington did not stage the attacks themselves, its a very good possibility that they allowed it to happen.

Another question is why did the Police officers refuse to let the people out of the second tower when the first one was hit? People tried to escape the first tower but were stopped by police and told to stay in their office.

If we look at how Bush has followed things after the attack, we can see that he used 'Security' to strip people of their rights, liberties and freedoms.

Whether or not he staged the attack, he has certainly milked it to get every last illegal military privelage he could ever hope for.

For us at BrainMeta, its not so much 'consperacies' as it is the question, how far is Bush willing to go to get what he wants? Does he have the knowlege and staff to engage in this level of Political Science?

Were not layman, we dont sit around thinking of how the government is going to get us. We know what the government is capable of and then simply ask the question how much dont we know? This is Political Science to us, not conscperacies. Throughout history similar tactics have been used and will be used again, we just need to ask - has it been used this time?

Outside of their own specific areas of expertise, no individual, group or organization is any more or less a "layman" than anyone else. ;O) To state such a thing automatically reveals you as an "elitist," who attempts to use such language to a priori discard opposing ideas, thoughts, ideologies and ...science and research.

I asked, as I couldn't help but notice that the ideologies promoted by the 9-11 Truthers and their like is very similar to the ideologies I see espoused on forums such as this. Comments about science are strewn with political ideology and commentary, while opposing political/social povs are openly disdained. This leads me to wonder about the objectivity of such researchers and scientists - whose political affiliations and ideologies are generally somewhat to the left of political and social normative. The facts by themselves do not support the conspiracies promoted - or accepted - by them.

Remember: 90% or more of all colleges and universities are staffed by political liberals/progressives.

To see how many subscribe to any aspect of the 9-11 Truthers ideas tells me much about the objectivity of the individuals adhering to it, as it does about this forum and it's purposes.

...and the facts do not support the 9-11 Truthers. ;O)

What can be concluded about scientists, scholars and researchers who adhere to the ideas promoted by the 9-11 Truthers? The question must therefore be asked, how much does their own consciousness, or lack thereof, of their own ideologies and beliefs, negatively impact and affect and influence their own work in their own specialties? Particularly when they openly espouse an elitist approach to knowledge and understanding? (Remember. The 9-11 Truthers use the same type of elitist approach in disseminating their own unsupported and unfounded ideas.)

Well our government has lied to us before, I am fully confident that they will do it again. I would suspect some level of government foul play is possible, but I mean is it really that unlikely that terrorists would attack us? I mean hell I am like a day and a half away from kicking someone on the hill in the balls.

"Outside of their own specific areas of expertise, no individual, group or organization is any more or less a "layman" than anyone else. ;O) To state such a thing automatically reveals you as an "elitist," who attempts to use such language to a priori discard opposing ideas, thoughts, ideologies and ...science and research."

I know this wasn't dirrected at me, but I am a total elitist--all men were not created equal. If they were blindness would not exist, nor mental illness etc. I think it is safe to say that there are intelligent individuals, and laymans.

Egalitarians versus elitists: which are the liberals and which are the conservatives?

Your personal attack on me is boring and unfounded. By layman I meant those without deep knowlege of Political Science. It is used in context just fine, most of the people on BrainMeta know more about Political Science than the rest of the population. Thats not to say that there are not people who know more, on the contrary there are plenty of people with a deeper knowlege of political science than mine.

However, in general, people on BrainMeta maintain a working knowlege of such affairs where the layman is the average person - average as in does not engage in such fields as those discussed on BrainMeta.

Therefore it is statistically significant that those who are active on BrainMeta should know more about Political Science than the conscpierators who do not. The reason being is because this is discussed as a Scholarly activity where the topic is not viewed from a us vs them perspective but a discussion about Political and Military tactics and strategies carried out by those who retain power in the government.

I know all about consperacies and consperacy theorists, I have good friends who are very much consperacy theorists but what we talk about on BrainMeta is not theories but mostly facts.

I knew one man who essentially taught me the most powerful ways in which people are scientifically manipulated and controlled. This was not a theory of his, he had factual evidence, he had built the machines himself and had a degree to back up the fact that he knew these things worked. Furthermore he provided me with documentation FROM the government that proved the association between these devices and the government.

This is the diffrence I was talking about between layman and us, the layman are referred to as those who are paranoid with no reason. We however, only become worried about what the government is doing after we have confirmed evidence of such things. You will notice very few professionals will go on a camera and say UFO's are coming to earth, instead you see people with no associated training telling you that aliens are coming and you should donate to their organization that will be the first to meet with the aliens.

If aliens are here, NASA already knows about them and has had far better contact with them than some amature alien hunter. Professionals do things in a mature, organized and resonable fashion, look at Shawn Mikula, if you havent noticed, he is always considerate about what he says.

I on the other hand have a bit more freedom, I can say whatever the hell I want to without worry because there is a certain anominimity on the internet. Shawn has to be careful what he says because of his credentials, if he was just Shawn and not Dr.Shawn Mikula, Phd in neuroscience, then he could be more loose in what he said.

Rick for the most part is just Rick, I know he has some form of educational training but not the details of it, I take what he says seriously because of the way he conducts himself on the forum not because of any degrees.

Thats the diffrence between how people on BrainMeta conduct themselves, they try to view things from diffrent perspectives, objectivly, with knowlege and reason. We are actually quite picky when it comes to how information is presented, its usually a relaxed environment but the subjects are always taken seriously. People on BrainMeta do not start posting theories all willy nilly, they investigate and check things, then when they post it - the subject usually undergoes great scrutiny and is debated. We rely on facts to prove things, instead of hunches, witnesses and all other variables that can easily be manipulated.

Dont forget, BrainMeta is hugely philosophical, so at times we debate purely theoretical things, but even they are taken logically.

People on BrainMeta are involved in mental and thought intensive subjects, that in essence is one of the major dividing lines between the 'average joe' and the thought bound scholar. So if your really looking for that divider which creates the term layman, it would have to be the level of mental training they undergo. Artists rigourously study anatomy and perspective, infact the best artists in the world know as much about human anatomy as Doctors. Philosophers have one of the most mentally intesive studies , not to say that there are not other areas of study that require great mental fortitude.

Let me simplify this into a more readily consumable idea. I know two carpenters, one - knows a great deal about carpentry and is very good at it, in his spare time he watches football, plays games, ect. Two - knows even more about carpentry and is very skilled, in his spare time he works on magnetic, quantum and space physics. The first one only knows highschool math, the second one could give mathmaticians a run for their money.

Even though they both have the same occupation, about the same age, yet one is diversly diffrent from the other. Actually to tell the truth I didnt think the second carpenter was that smart until I started talking to him about Quantum Physics - he really does know a lot. In fact ive been trying to convince him to go back to school and get a degree in Space Physics, but he's not exactly in his youth - I guess we will see how it goes hey?

Anyways, #1 is a layman, he is what we refer to as a sheep #2 is a thinker, he is a shepard.

My original post was meant entirely to promote discussion. Technically speaking - for internet purposes - I was "trolling" for responses. It is a part of an ad hoc study I am conducting at the moment. Do patterns of thought and behavior actually match what I have been seeing on websites composed of differing demographics but which display similar ideologies? The 9-11 Truthers use many of the same types of arguments as you offered in your first response, (and then said the same things so much better in your second.)

The experienced carpenter thinks that all of the rest of us are "laymen." ;O) His only real interest is his/her profession. As with any other profession, anything else he does outside of his profession is a "hobby."

Your second 'argument' is much better presented than your first. However, it still avoids the original question.

To expect a scientist or a scholar to be more knowledgeable than any other 'layman" as regards political science is still elitism. Rick did pose an interesting riddle, however. It is worthy of further thought. The very definitions of 'liberal' and 'conservative' have changed substantially over the last one hundred years. Almost on a decade by decade basis. By the classic definitions, the liberal of today is often tomorrow's conservative. The egalitarian becomes the elitist, almost by default.

As for my "personal attack" on you? It was an opinion as based upon the evidence at hand. If it had "bored" you so much, you would not have responded, except to properly show the 'bourgeois pretender layman' his proper place in the pecking order. ;O)

Back to the original question, which has yet to be answered.

Do you think that the 9-11 Truthers are right?

Follow-up:

Why do you think that they are right (or wrong), and as a scientist or scholar, based upon what evidence?

Were I an elitist myself, I would say that outside of your own profession, I know and am aware of much more than you are, so that makes me a better man. A purely subjective observation. Some would claim that they are better men bedcause they have more wealth, influence, power or what have you. The theologian would speak and act as if he were the better man. ...the "urge for power."

Personally, all I seek is knowledge. If I have to tilt at a few windmills (array myself against egos) in order to gain that knowledge, I'll tilt at a few windmills. ;O)

My original question(s) remain, for the moment, unanswered...which, as I've said, is answer enough in and of itself.

Keep it calm gentleman. What is this "political science" anyway? Surely politics is opinion and science is objective and rarely the twain do meet.

wrsteel is using threats of elitism as a defence mechanism. Wanna call me an elitist? Fine, your entititled to your opinion. I really do not care about your opinion, I do not discuss things with people who use selective logic.

Your right Hey Hey, im not going to get in a fight with some troll, or else we will have another Cybert on our hands.

That was a nice riddle/question Rick, I will have to think on it more.

Im done discussing this.

The conspiracy theories are numerous.
Non of them can be believed in because they are
not presented by people who have or have had
any relation to the criminal investigation related
with 9-11.

There is no need to invent conspiracy theory, just read Tenet's book, you can find there everything.

Look, at present I read CIA former director George Tenet's book
"At the Center of the Storm". I read that book because several years ago
I was trying to write a technical project related with critical infrastructure
protection and at that period read innumerable stuff related with 9-11 and
related, so I am interested in events representation by Mr. Tenet.

I am not US citizen, but as more I read that book I understand
that each US citizen must read his book. Let me abstain from telling
why I do recommend to US citizens to read Mr. Tenet's book.

In Chapter 10 named "We're at War" he writes, page 175,
on September 13

'Cofer Black [chief of CIA's Counterterrorist Center] followed me with a Power Point presentation that detailed our covert action capability ...
[page 176]

"How quickly could we deploy the CIA teams?" the president asked.

"In short order," Cofer answered.

"How quickly, then, could we defeat the Taliban and al'Qa'ida?"

"A matter of weeks," Cofer told him.'

So a very simple question

Does it mean that US government already on 13 September 2001 was 100% sure that 9-11 was organized by al'Qa'ida without having full results of the investigation of 9-11 events? How they could know on 13 September 2001 with 100% assurance two days after 9-11, that the towers were destroyed by Taliban and al'Qa'ida?

As far as I remember the chronology of the events, the investigation results came not so fast to serve as a ground for war planning. Maybe I do wrongly remember the chronology of the events? Deja? vu paramnesia ?

Mr. Tenet's book is miraculously strange I should say. There you can find things which astonish to abysmal degree.

You can also read this Matrix deja? vu effect when it turned out that Perle at the same time was in Washington and France. I know only Pythagoras (and some other guys) who could be viewed in different places at the same time: http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/04/per...enet/index.html



So when he returned? When Perle returned from France? You see a gap in time. Miracle.

So I consider absolute nonsense to discuss any conspiracy theory. And I strongly recommend to read Tenet's book. Tenet wrote that book for mankind. Esp. Read Chapter 13 named Threat Matrix, page 229.

Good stuff for Hollywood btw.

I just really hope very much that Michael V. Hayden will guard USA with much more care.

Children, while reading this forum remember that the Matrix does not exists.

Exactly!

I just mentioned about that for children, because one of the Chapters of Tenet's book - chapter 13 contains word Matrix.

You cannot imagine how I was laughing when I first read the book content.

Many interesting ideas can be added to the subject,
but it is senseless to spend time on that subject.

The tears of the victims' relatives remain with no clarity in entire fog. Sad indeed.

Here is an addition to what I wrote above.

One can invent numerous silly conspiracy theories basing only on numerology but it is hard to uncover the true roots.

I call them Enki’s 9-11 Pentagram.

Case 1. Neo-KGB
E.g. by utilizing the fact that Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky the founding father of KGB (known at his times as Bolshevik secret police, the Cheka) was born at September 11 (new style) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Edmundovich_Dzerzhinsky]. Only that fact that he was born on September 11 could incline many conspiracy theory developers to claim that
9-11 was the secret response of the KGB to USSR destruction.

Case 2. Neo-Nazi & Forth Reich
But at the same time as the Crystal Night happened on November 9, which numerically can be represented as 11-9, the other conspiracy theory developers can claim that 9-11 was covertly sponsored by Neo-Nazi because Hitler dreamed about bombs and skyscrapers of New York.

Case 3. New World Order (Owen-omen, 'w' is rotated to become 'm')
The others can invent a theory that the Hollywood project to release Tolkien’s Two Towers was somehow related with the 9-11 and claim that it is Masonic conspiracy aimed at establishment of the New World Order.

Case 4. Illuminati
In the word illuminati, the letter ‘i’ is the 9-th letter of English alphabet, so inserting that letter in the world one obtains: 9lluminati, as the letters ‘ll’ in that word look like 11, so we have 911uminati. So some conspiracy theory developers can consider Illuminati Order as organizers of 9-11.

Case 5. Satan
Some may say that all was done by the will of Satan as 11 is Satan number.

I can bring along other very interesting examples, but this five are the most specific showing that conspiracy theories can be developed in all directions and in all directions one can dug up a lot of arguments pro and con.

And many, many, many funny stories can be introduced. But it is not possible to define which is true. That is why I made reference on Tenet’s book.

Being not aware about details of the investigation one cannot draw forth any reliable theory.

I believe something fishy went on, either a complete failure of all manual and automatic systems that resulted in security failures OR a staged attack that destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives just to give weight to an attack which was aimed at securing more oil for one of the most oil-intense countries in the world.

Personally I think theres too much at stake to rule out the conspiracy theory, especially given Bush and his oil mogul background (like a lot of recent presidents, right?). The sad fact of life is we're using up all the oil at a faster and faster rate, compelling these types of demonic actions, which then end up in 9-11.

I've heard so many conflicting views about 9-11 up to this point that its pointless trying to find out the truth. I've heard that thermite was used at major structural points around the base of the towers, and that an explosion was heard from the basement (see Zeitgeist the movie). Apparently there was thermite burning in the rubble for weeks afterwards. The government also claimed that the small building in front of the towers collapsed due to fire, when that wouldn't happen because it was built with steel. Theres just too much that points to a spectacular and fear inducing visible terrorist act (planes hitting) alongside an invisible and reinforcing demolition job. It will always be speculated upon, but that is not enough to say either way now. The truth has been severly crippled despite the huge amount of media coverage at the time.

options:
1. USA attacking the USA to gain public support for a war that has everything to do with oil

2. Taliban attacking the USA because of the feeling that the USA is sticking its nose into middle eastern affairs to secure more oil.

3. Terrorists attacked for the hell of it.

Middle Eastern economies are struggling due to a lack of exports and no political stability. Seeing how many airplanes are flying per day and the overall wealth of western nations can easily be twisted into the west being the Evil of the world. Theres a reason they used airplanes.

An example of how we are told whatever they want us to believe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKULTRA

and the prize for the worst misuse of power in these experiments goes to...

According to the Bible one day they all will pay for improper usage of power against any human being. Let us hope that the Last Judgment will be a just one.

And I do really hope that some of them will pay during their life time too.

i believe that George W Bush was involved in the 9/11 attacks that's what i believe some conspiracy's might be true but.....i mean come on that happens then shortly after the president goes having the bastards go to the damn white house??? what is up with that? they deserve nothing but to be dead just like the innocent people at the 9/11 and our troops too. that's another thing Bush keeps sending our men over there for what? to fight? i really think he is just like one of them NO BETTER killing our men and i really hope soon someone else is president rather be another guy or Hilliary Clinton just let there be no more killings that's all i care about. GET BUSH OUT OF THE DAMN WHITE HOUSE!!!!