Hello to you all. This is my first post in this forum.
I have a *very* mentally demanding career which requires
- analytical and creative thinking
- excellent communication skills
- excellent decision making and problem solving skills
- strong motivation
- quick response
- long working hours, etc.
Wow. lol
I am new to nootropics and started taking the followings about 3 weeks ago.
08:00
Aniracetam ................... 450mg
DMAE Bitartrate ...............200mg
Ginkgo & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
Royal Jelly .................. 500mg
Omega-3 ...................... 1000mg
Lecithin ..................... 1000mg
Vitamin B5 ................... 125mg
Vitamin C (Ester-C) .......... 1000mg
Multi Vitamins & Minerals .... 1 tablet
14:00
Piracetam .................... 800mg
Ginkgo & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
23:00
Ginkgo & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
Probiotic Yogurt ............. 1 capsule (2 milliards active bacteria)
Omega-3 ...................... 1000mg
Lecithin ..................... 1000mg
Melatonin .................... 3mg (once a week)
OTHERS
Green tea .................... a few cups a day
Deep sea fish ................ at least 3 times a week
REMARKS
- I am planning to switch from Piracetam to Oxiracetam because the former gives a strange odor to my stomach gas after having a big lunch.
- If I take Piracetam in the evening, it is very likely that I will not be able to fall asleep at night.
- Aniracetam is good but gives me brain fogs sometimes. I still have 2 big bottles in my stock.
- I have just lowered my intake of Vitamin B5 from 250mg to 125mg due to noticeable stiffness in my neck and shoulders and unintentional muscle contractions. If this doesn’t help, I will further lower it to 60mg.
- I have just added Lecithin to my stack and not sure about its effects on me.
- I take Melatonin only on Saturday nights or when I have to overcome jetlag.
- The next ones I want to try are Deprenyl and Vinpocetine. Not sure which one I should try first.
Are there any problems with my stack? Should I add/drop something? Any recommendations?
Your input will be greatly appreciated.
Full Version: A Newbie's Stack - comments needed
hiya Krystal.
I'm in a very similar position so hopefully I can help by sharing a little bit of what I do to help me get through the day. It's quite common to be in your position and I have often wonder how many out there in similar positions know about nootropics/nutraceuticals/medications and how to utilise them in effectively in various situations.
I'm am NOT a doctor. I recommend that you consult your doctor about any choices you make regarding your regime. You should do this regardless of how harmful you think the substance that you are taking is. In saying that, you need to understand that not all doctors understand alot about supplements and nootropics. Try and find an aligned doctor that understand your needs. When I say aligned I am referring to a a doctor that is open minded and prepared to listen. I am also referring to a doctor that is also open to prescribing reasonably safe medications to you that will help you accomplish the things that you have mentioned above.
Just for the record I have a PhD in Biochemistry/biogerontology. Credentials on-line however mean didly squat though.
So here we go. I use to use nootropics such as racetams but found that they really didn't do anything for me. The current research with piracetam suggests that it is only effective in an aged/compromised system and hence, not effective in normal health humans. To say that it is not effective might be too big of a statement though. It is probably effective but would not give you the best "bang for your buck" if you are healthy
Here are a few recent review abstracts
Piracetam improves mitochondrial dysfunction following oxidative stress.
Keil U, Scherping I, Hauptmann S, Schuessel K, Eckert A, Muller WE.
1Department of Pharmacology, Biocenter, N260, University of Frankfurt, Marie-Curie-Str. 9, 60439 Frankfurt, Germany.
Mitochondrial dysfunction including decrease of mitochondrial membrane potential and reduced ATP production represents a common final pathway of many conditions associated with oxidative stress, for example, hypoxia, hypoglycemia, and aging.Since the cognition-improving effects of the standard nootropic piracetam are usually more pronounced under such pathological conditions and young healthy animals usually benefit little by piracetam, the effect of piracetam on mitochondrial dysfunction following oxidative stress was investigated using PC12 cells and dissociated brain cells of animals treated with piracetam.Piracetam treatment at concentrations between 100 and 1000 muM improved mitochondrial membrane potential and ATP production of PC12 cells following oxidative stress induced by sodium nitroprusside (SNP) and serum deprivation. Under conditions of mild serum deprivation, piracetam (500 muM) induced a nearly complete recovery of mitochondrial membrane potential and ATP levels. Piracetam also reduced caspase 9 activity after SNP treatment.Piracetam treatment (100-500 mg kg(-1) daily) of mice was also associated with improved mitochondrial function in dissociated brain cells. Significant improvement was mainly seen in aged animals and only less in young animals. Moreover, the same treatment reduced antioxidant enzyme activities (superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase, and glutathione reductase) in aged mouse brain only, which are elevated as an adaptive response to the increased oxidative stress with aging.In conclusion, therapeutically relevant in vitro and in vivo concentrations of piracetam are able to improve mitochondrial dysfunction associated with oxidative stress and/or aging. Mitochondrial stabilization and protection might be an important mechanism to explain many of piracetam's beneficial effects in elderly patients.British Journal of Pharmacology (2006) 147, 199-208. doi:10.1038/sj.bjp.0706459; published online 14 November 2005.
PMID: 16284628 [PubMed - in process]
and same snippets from the discussion
finishing off with
So for me, a healthy male of 35, I have chosen not to use racetams. I find that there is more bang for your buck in nutraceuticals and some reasonable safe medications.
Here are a few standout things I have in my supplement regime
For memory and mild stimulation I am using 4mg/day of Galantamine. I take this in the morning with food.
To help me deal with the daily stresses I use Rhodiola (250-500mg per day in the morning on an empty stomach) and Ashwagandha (225-450mg per day before bed on an empty stomach). These are adaptogenic supplements that help you adapt to both the psychological and physiological stresses that you may encounter on a day-to-day basis.
To wake you up in the morning it is often easy to just supplement with either L-Tyrosine (1000-4000mg) or
D,L-Phenylalanine (1000mg) rather than brewing a coffee. It's not generally a good idea to supplement with both of these compounds at once because that are large neutral amino acids (LNAA) that will compete with each other at the blood brain barrier (BBB). Taking either one of these + coffee is a buzz and a half. A buzz that some cannot handle
Another thing I use every now and then isa 1/4 tab (25mg) of thyroxine. This is a prescription only thyroid hormone. Mention some of the things that you mentioned above to your doctor and ask if they believe that this would help you achieve what you wish to achieve.
For now I will leave you with that Krystal. I will also leave some room for others to respond
QUOTE
I have a *very* mentally demanding career which requires
- analytical and creative thinking
- excellent communication skills
- excellent decision making and problem solving skills
- strong motivation
- quick response
- long working hours, etc.
- analytical and creative thinking
- excellent communication skills
- excellent decision making and problem solving skills
- strong motivation
- quick response
- long working hours, etc.
I'm in a very similar position so hopefully I can help by sharing a little bit of what I do to help me get through the day. It's quite common to be in your position and I have often wonder how many out there in similar positions know about nootropics/nutraceuticals/medications and how to utilise them in effectively in various situations.
I'm am NOT a doctor. I recommend that you consult your doctor about any choices you make regarding your regime. You should do this regardless of how harmful you think the substance that you are taking is. In saying that, you need to understand that not all doctors understand alot about supplements and nootropics. Try and find an aligned doctor that understand your needs. When I say aligned I am referring to a a doctor that is open minded and prepared to listen. I am also referring to a doctor that is also open to prescribing reasonably safe medications to you that will help you accomplish the things that you have mentioned above.
Just for the record I have a PhD in Biochemistry/biogerontology. Credentials on-line however mean didly squat though.
So here we go. I use to use nootropics such as racetams but found that they really didn't do anything for me. The current research with piracetam suggests that it is only effective in an aged/compromised system and hence, not effective in normal health humans. To say that it is not effective might be too big of a statement though. It is probably effective but would not give you the best "bang for your buck" if you are healthy
Here are a few recent review abstracts
QUOTE
Piracetam--an old drug with novel properties?
Winnicka K, Tomasiak M, Bielawska A.
Department of Drug Technology, Medical University of Bialystok, 1 Kilinskiego Str., 15-089 Bialystok, Poland.
Piracetam (2-oxo-1-pyrrolidine-acetamide), the most common of the nootropic drugs, is a cyclic derivative of gamma-aminobutyric acid. The treatment with piracetam improves learning, memory, brain metabolism, and capacity. Piracetam has been shown to alter the physical properties of the plasma membrane by increasing its fluidity and by protecting the cell against hypoxia. It increases red cell deformability and normalizes aggregation of hyperactive platelets. Piracetam is an agent with antithrombotic, neuroprotective and rheological properties. The interaction of this molecule with the membrane phospholipids restores membrane fluidity and could explain the efficacy of piracetam in various disorders ranging from dementia and vertigo to myoclonus and stroke.
Publication Types:
* Review
PMID: 16459490 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Winnicka K, Tomasiak M, Bielawska A.
Department of Drug Technology, Medical University of Bialystok, 1 Kilinskiego Str., 15-089 Bialystok, Poland.
Piracetam (2-oxo-1-pyrrolidine-acetamide), the most common of the nootropic drugs, is a cyclic derivative of gamma-aminobutyric acid. The treatment with piracetam improves learning, memory, brain metabolism, and capacity. Piracetam has been shown to alter the physical properties of the plasma membrane by increasing its fluidity and by protecting the cell against hypoxia. It increases red cell deformability and normalizes aggregation of hyperactive platelets. Piracetam is an agent with antithrombotic, neuroprotective and rheological properties. The interaction of this molecule with the membrane phospholipids restores membrane fluidity and could explain the efficacy of piracetam in various disorders ranging from dementia and vertigo to myoclonus and stroke.
Publication Types:
* Review
PMID: 16459490 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Piracetam improves mitochondrial dysfunction following oxidative stress.
Keil U, Scherping I, Hauptmann S, Schuessel K, Eckert A, Muller WE.
1Department of Pharmacology, Biocenter, N260, University of Frankfurt, Marie-Curie-Str. 9, 60439 Frankfurt, Germany.
Mitochondrial dysfunction including decrease of mitochondrial membrane potential and reduced ATP production represents a common final pathway of many conditions associated with oxidative stress, for example, hypoxia, hypoglycemia, and aging.Since the cognition-improving effects of the standard nootropic piracetam are usually more pronounced under such pathological conditions and young healthy animals usually benefit little by piracetam, the effect of piracetam on mitochondrial dysfunction following oxidative stress was investigated using PC12 cells and dissociated brain cells of animals treated with piracetam.Piracetam treatment at concentrations between 100 and 1000 muM improved mitochondrial membrane potential and ATP production of PC12 cells following oxidative stress induced by sodium nitroprusside (SNP) and serum deprivation. Under conditions of mild serum deprivation, piracetam (500 muM) induced a nearly complete recovery of mitochondrial membrane potential and ATP levels. Piracetam also reduced caspase 9 activity after SNP treatment.Piracetam treatment (100-500 mg kg(-1) daily) of mice was also associated with improved mitochondrial function in dissociated brain cells. Significant improvement was mainly seen in aged animals and only less in young animals. Moreover, the same treatment reduced antioxidant enzyme activities (superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase, and glutathione reductase) in aged mouse brain only, which are elevated as an adaptive response to the increased oxidative stress with aging.In conclusion, therapeutically relevant in vitro and in vivo concentrations of piracetam are able to improve mitochondrial dysfunction associated with oxidative stress and/or aging. Mitochondrial stabilization and protection might be an important mechanism to explain many of piracetam's beneficial effects in elderly patients.British Journal of Pharmacology (2006) 147, 199-208. doi:10.1038/sj.bjp.0706459; published online 14 November 2005.
PMID: 16284628 [PubMed - in process]
and same snippets from the discussion
QUOTE
Findings that piracetams efficacy is usually associated with conditions of disturbed brain function like aging, that is, young healthy animals usually benefit little or nothing from piracetam treatment (1)., has lead to the speculation that piracetam's mechanism of action is associated with biochemical deficits of the aged brain. This assumption was supported by the observations that piracetam specifically enhances membrane fluidity in the aged brain material, showing no effect at all in the membranes from young brains (2).............Piracetam's improving effects on the fluidity of the aged synaptosomal membranes could easily explain the beneficial effects of piracetam on age-related deficits of several mechanisms of signal transduction (receptor density and function, transmitter release) (3), since these mechanisms are distributed in the aging brain probably due to a decrease in membrane fluidity...........Evidences that piracetam's beneficial effects on the fluidity on the aged mitochondrial membranes might contribute to its therapeutic efficacy are rather indirect and originate from observations that piracetam might improve glucose uptake and utilisation as well as ATP production (4). Even if these effects led to the term "metabolic enhancer', sometimes used to characterise piracetam and related nootropics, the mechanism of this effect and its possible relationship to mitochondrial function remain unsolved.
finishing off with
QUOTE
In conclusion, therapeutically relevant in vitro and in vivo concentrations of piracetam are able to improve mitochondrial dysfunction associated with oxidative stress and/or aging. Mitochondrial stabilisationand protection might be an important mechanism to explain many of piracetam's beneficial effects in elderly patients
So for me, a healthy male of 35, I have chosen not to use racetams. I find that there is more bang for your buck in nutraceuticals and some reasonable safe medications.
Here are a few standout things I have in my supplement regime
For memory and mild stimulation I am using 4mg/day of Galantamine. I take this in the morning with food.
To help me deal with the daily stresses I use Rhodiola (250-500mg per day in the morning on an empty stomach) and Ashwagandha (225-450mg per day before bed on an empty stomach). These are adaptogenic supplements that help you adapt to both the psychological and physiological stresses that you may encounter on a day-to-day basis.
To wake you up in the morning it is often easy to just supplement with either L-Tyrosine (1000-4000mg) or
D,L-Phenylalanine (1000mg) rather than brewing a coffee. It's not generally a good idea to supplement with both of these compounds at once because that are large neutral amino acids (LNAA) that will compete with each other at the blood brain barrier (BBB). Taking either one of these + coffee is a buzz and a half. A buzz that some cannot handle
Another thing I use every now and then isa 1/4 tab (25mg) of thyroxine. This is a prescription only thyroid hormone. Mention some of the things that you mentioned above to your doctor and ask if they believe that this would help you achieve what you wish to achieve.
For now I will leave you with that Krystal. I will also leave some room for others to respond
Hola~ Being 17 I do not want to spend money on nootropics that I will not recieve benefits from, sooo... What would you all recommend as far as nootropics for anyone under the age of say 35? Is nicotine considered a nootropic? If so why don't they make other nootropics in patch and gum form?
Would brain nutrients like L-theanine and L-huperzine A be benificial to someone my age?
Would brain nutrients like L-theanine and L-huperzine A be benificial to someone my age?
QUOTE(Flex @ Nov 25, 2006, 12:21 PM) 
Hola~ Being 17 I do not want to spend money on nootropics that I will not recieve benefits from, sooo... What would you all reccomend as far as nootropics for anyone under the age of say 35? Is nicotine considered a nootropic? If so why don't they make other nootropics in patch and gum form?
Would brain nutrients like L-theanine and L-huperzine A be benificial to someone my age?
Well, from my personal experience, a bacon patch solved my over-weight problem. It might work for you too!!! Seriously now, I'm no expert at the subject, but I feel compelled to share with you my two cents on the subject. And it is: Keep it simple! You're only 17, why bother with anything other than a healthy, balanced diet?! Nootropics, vitamin supplements and the like, that's stuff for old farts and/or young people under unusual amount of stress; such as, Med School, for example. Just stick to your pyramid of foods dietary regime for now and enjoy a worry-free young man's diet for the next 20 years or so. This from my personal experience, and seriously, this time.
QUOTE
Hello to you all. This is my first post in this forum.
I have a *very* mentally demanding career which requires
- analytical and creative thinking
- excellent communication skills
- excellent decision making and problem solving skills
- strong motivation
- quick response
- long working hours, etc.
Wow. lol
I am new to nootropics and started taking the followings about 3 weeks ago.
08:00
Aniracetam ................... 450mg
DMAE Bitartrate ...............200mg
Ginkho & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
Royal Jelly .................. 500mg
Omega-3 ...................... 1000mg
Lecithin ..................... 1000mg
Vitamin B5 ................... 125mg
Vitamin C (Ester-C) .......... 1000mg
Multi Vitamins & Minerals .... 1 tablet
14:00
Piracetam .................... 800mg
Ginkho & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
23:00
Ginkho & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
Probiotic Yogurt ............. 1 capsule (2 milliards active bacteria)
Omega-3 ...................... 1000mg
Lecithin ..................... 1000mg
Melatonin .................... 3mg (once a week)
OTHERS
Green tea .................... a few cups a day
Deep sea fish ................ at least 3 times a week
REMARKS
- I am planning to switch from Piracetam to Oxiracetam because the former gives a strange odor to my stomach gas after having a big lunch.
- If I take Piracetam in the evening, it is very likely that I will not be able to fall asleep at night.
- Aniracetam is good but gives me brain fogs sometimes. I still have 2 big bottles in my stock.
- I have just lowered my intake of Vitamin B5 from 250mg to 125mg due to noticeable stiffness in my neck and shoulders and unintentional muscle contractions. If this doesn't help, I will further lower it to 60mg.
- I have just added Lecithin to my stack and not sure about its effects on me.
- I take Melatonin only on Saturday nights or when I have to overcome jetlag.
- The next ones I want to try are Deprenyl and Vinpocetine. Not sure which one I should try first.
Are there any problems with my stack? Should I add/drop something? Any recommendations?
Your input will be greatly appreciated.
I have a *very* mentally demanding career which requires
- analytical and creative thinking
- excellent communication skills
- excellent decision making and problem solving skills
- strong motivation
- quick response
- long working hours, etc.
Wow. lol
I am new to nootropics and started taking the followings about 3 weeks ago.
08:00
Aniracetam ................... 450mg
DMAE Bitartrate ...............200mg
Ginkho & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
Royal Jelly .................. 500mg
Omega-3 ...................... 1000mg
Lecithin ..................... 1000mg
Vitamin B5 ................... 125mg
Vitamin C (Ester-C) .......... 1000mg
Multi Vitamins & Minerals .... 1 tablet
14:00
Piracetam .................... 800mg
Ginkho & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
23:00
Ginkho & Bacopin ............. 60mg (equiv. to 3000mg whole leaves)
Probiotic Yogurt ............. 1 capsule (2 milliards active bacteria)
Omega-3 ...................... 1000mg
Lecithin ..................... 1000mg
Melatonin .................... 3mg (once a week)
OTHERS
Green tea .................... a few cups a day
Deep sea fish ................ at least 3 times a week
REMARKS
- I am planning to switch from Piracetam to Oxiracetam because the former gives a strange odor to my stomach gas after having a big lunch.
- If I take Piracetam in the evening, it is very likely that I will not be able to fall asleep at night.
- Aniracetam is good but gives me brain fogs sometimes. I still have 2 big bottles in my stock.
- I have just lowered my intake of Vitamin B5 from 250mg to 125mg due to noticeable stiffness in my neck and shoulders and unintentional muscle contractions. If this doesn't help, I will further lower it to 60mg.
- I have just added Lecithin to my stack and not sure about its effects on me.
- I take Melatonin only on Saturday nights or when I have to overcome jetlag.
- The next ones I want to try are Deprenyl and Vinpocetine. Not sure which one I should try first.
Are there any problems with my stack? Should I add/drop something? Any recommendations?
Your input will be greatly appreciated.
Drop the DMAE. It is the probably cause of stomach and muscle issues.
Keep taking Piracetam and aniracetam and/or replace one of them with Oxiracetam. The racetam class compounds are the Most important compounds anyone can take for enhanced brain functioning in the areas you are looking to augment.
Lecithin is pretty much worthless. Take CDP-Choline or Alpha GPC choline instead.
I would consider adding Vincamine and/or Pyritinol.
QUOTE
Hola~ Being 17 I do not want to spend money on nootropics that I will not recieve benefits from, sooo... What would you all reccomend as far as nootropics for anyone under the age of say 35? Is nicotine considered a nootropic? If so why don't they make other nootropics in patch and gum form?
Would brain nutrients like L-theanine and L-huperzine A be benificial to someone my age?
Would brain nutrients like L-theanine and L-huperzine A be benificial to someone my age?
At 17 you can benefit from most nootropics.Based on my patients as young as 6 and up I would recommend Piracetam, Pyritinol, L-Theanine, L-Huperzine A, etc as examples.
Nicotine being addictive is not a nootropic. Galantamine would be an excellent substitute.
QUOTE(LifeMirage)
Drop the DMAE. It is the probably cause of stomach and muscle issues.
I would drop the DMAE because the science to back it's use at the moment is not very good i.e inconclusive. As far as it being the cause of stomach and muscle issues, well I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. I would drop the DMAE (without making any other changes) and see if your stomach situation changes.
QUOTE(LifeMirage)
Keep taking Piracetam and aniracetam and/or replace one of them with Oxiracetam. The racetam class compounds are the Most important compounds anyone can take for enhanced brain functioning in the areas you are looking to augment.
That's a strong statement LifeMirage. Personally I disagree and never really noticed any changes when I took any of the racetams. I have tried piracetam, aniracetam and oxiracetam. Scientifically I also disagree as most studies suggest that the racetams, such as piracetam, seem to only be effective in compromised situations.
QUOTE(Krystal)
I have just lowered my intake of Vitamin B5 from 250mg to 125mg due to noticeable stiffness in my neck and shoulders and unintentional muscle contractions. If this doesn’t help, I will further lower it to 60mg.
A lot will argue that the reason why you have stiffness in your neck is because of the piracetam supplementation without supplementing with a good choline donor. I experianced neck stiffness a few times when using piracetam and I have heard of many others who have experianced the same. You need to find a balance between piracetam and choline supplementation.
QUOTE(LifeMirage)
I would consider adding Vincamine and/or Pyritinol.
I have seen you recommend pyritinol on many occasions. I use to use pyritinol myself until I discovered the following
QUOTE
Maria V, Albuquerque A, Loureiro A, Sousa A, Victorino R.
Severe cholestatic hepatitis induced by pyritinol.
BMJ. 2004 Mar 6;328(7439):572-4. No abstract available.
PMID: 15001508 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Severe cholestatic hepatitis induced by pyritinol.
BMJ. 2004 Mar 6;328(7439):572-4. No abstract available.
PMID: 15001508 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Straumann A, Bauer M, Pichler WJ, Pirovino M.
Acute pancreatitis due to pyritinol: an immune-mediated phenomenon.
Gastroenterology. 1998 Aug;115(2):452-4.
PMID: 9679051 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Acute pancreatitis due to pyritinol: an immune-mediated phenomenon.
Gastroenterology. 1998 Aug;115(2):452-4.
PMID: 9679051 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Wigger-Alberti W, Elsner P.
Occupational contact dermatitis due to pyritinol.
Contact Dermatitis. 1997 Aug;37(2):91-2. No abstract available.
PMID: 9285173 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Occupational contact dermatitis due to pyritinol.
Contact Dermatitis. 1997 Aug;37(2):91-2. No abstract available.
PMID: 9285173 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Macedo G, Sarmento JA, Allegro S.
Acute hepatitis due to pyritinol.
Gastroenterol Clin Biol. 1992;16(2):186-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 1568548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Acute hepatitis due to pyritinol.
Gastroenterol Clin Biol. 1992;16(2):186-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 1568548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Hence, as a result of the above mentioned case studies, 2 of which state that pyritinol supplementation resulted in hepatitis, I do not take or recommend pyritinol anymore.
I will make some further comments about your stack
Critiquing what you currently have:
Make sure that you have a good Ginkgo supplement. You should be looking for the following on the side of the label
The percentage of glycosides (24%) and lactones (6%) is very important.
Perhaps consider a balanced fish oil supplement to fulfil you requirements for DHA and EPA as opposed to Omega-3. However, with 3 servings of deep sea fish per week you may not need either.
Critiquing what you currently have:
Make sure that you have a good Ginkgo supplement. You should be looking for the following on the side of the label
The percentage of glycosides (24%) and lactones (6%) is very important.
Perhaps consider a balanced fish oil supplement to fulfil you requirements for DHA and EPA as opposed to Omega-3. However, with 3 servings of deep sea fish per week you may not need either.
Speak with your practitioner about using melatonin supplementation every night. Here's an abstyract from a great review paper on the benefits of melatonin
Also, there are a few things that i would add to your regime.
I would consider adding N-acetyl-cysteine
I would take this supplement in the morning with your 8.00am supps. Additionally taking vitamin C with the NAC is said to minimise the oxidation of GSH to GSSG.
Other things I would consider adding are:
Rhodiola Rosea (taken on empty stomach perhaps with your 8.00am supps)
Ashwagandha (taken on empty stomach before bed)
L-Theanine (taken on an empty stomach before bed or when needed to counteract anxiety or acute stress)
Also, there are a few things that i would add to your regime.
I would consider adding N-acetyl-cysteine
QUOTE
N-ACETYL-L-CYSTEINE (NAC), an antioxidant amino acid and a precursor to the critical antioxidant glutathione. Glutathione exerts a variety of protective effects, including detoxification and intracellular defense against oxidative stress.
I would take this supplement in the morning with your 8.00am supps. Additionally taking vitamin C with the NAC is said to minimise the oxidation of GSH to GSSG.
Other things I would consider adding are:
Rhodiola Rosea (taken on empty stomach perhaps with your 8.00am supps)
Ashwagandha (taken on empty stomach before bed)
L-Theanine (taken on an empty stomach before bed or when needed to counteract anxiety or acute stress)
QUOTE(LifeMirage @ Nov 26, 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE
Hola~ Being 17 I do not want to spend money on nootropics that I will not recieve benefits from, sooo... What would you all recommend as far as nootropics for anyone under the age of say 35? Is nicotine considered a nootropic? If so why don't they make other nootropics in patch and gum form?
Would brain nutrients like L-theanine and L-huperzine A be benificial to someone my age?
Would brain nutrients like L-theanine and L-huperzine A be benificial to someone my age?
At 17 you can benefit from most nootropics.Based on my patients as young as 6 and up I would recommend Piracetam, Pyritinol, L-Theanine, L-Huperzine A, etc as examples.
Nicotine being addictive is not a nootropic. Galantamine would be an excellent substitute.
What might you suggest as far as dose is concerned? Maybe 400mg L-Theanine, 100mcg L-Huperzine, 4g Piracetam, 12mg Galantamine.
Thank all of you for your posts with valuable comments on my stack.
The Racetams
Aniracetam and Piracetam do have noticeable effects on me and I am planning to keep them in my stack as long as I can afford them. Aniracetam gives me immediate brain energy shortly after I take it in the morning. Piracetam is milder. If I take any of them later than 4pm, it is very likely that I can hardly fall asleep within 30 minutes at night.
Ginkgo Supplement
I checked my bottles of ginkgo supplement and saw the same percentages as what Zoolander has mentioned. Thanks Zoolander for bringing that up.
Choline Donors
I was not aware that DMAE is not a good choline donor. I will take LifeMirage’s recommendations of taking CDP-Choline or Alpha GPC choline instead. By the way, is Vitamin B5 a good choline donor?
Neck Stiffness & Involuntary Muscle Contractions
Are these the results of too much or too little choline? I think I saw somewhere on the net that too much choline can cause these.
Lecithin & Omega-3
I have got a source of Lecithin and Omega-3 at irresistible prices and so I decided to try them. I may drop both after I finish my stock.
Melatonin
I will consider taking 1.5mg every night. My problem with Melatonin is that whenever I take a 3mg capsule at night, I feel drowsy the next day.
Other Additions to My Stacks
The followings are what I have to research and consider adding to my stack:
- Vincamine… is it equal to Vinpocetine?
- Pyritinol
- Galantamine
- N-acetyl-cysteine
- Rhodiola Rosea
- Ashwagandha
- L-Theanine
The Racetams
Aniracetam and Piracetam do have noticeable effects on me and I am planning to keep them in my stack as long as I can afford them. Aniracetam gives me immediate brain energy shortly after I take it in the morning. Piracetam is milder. If I take any of them later than 4pm, it is very likely that I can hardly fall asleep within 30 minutes at night.
Ginkgo Supplement
I checked my bottles of ginkgo supplement and saw the same percentages as what Zoolander has mentioned. Thanks Zoolander for bringing that up.
Choline Donors
I was not aware that DMAE is not a good choline donor. I will take LifeMirage’s recommendations of taking CDP-Choline or Alpha GPC choline instead. By the way, is Vitamin B5 a good choline donor?
Neck Stiffness & Involuntary Muscle Contractions
Are these the results of too much or too little choline? I think I saw somewhere on the net that too much choline can cause these.
Lecithin & Omega-3
I have got a source of Lecithin and Omega-3 at irresistible prices and so I decided to try them. I may drop both after I finish my stock.
Melatonin
I will consider taking 1.5mg every night. My problem with Melatonin is that whenever I take a 3mg capsule at night, I feel drowsy the next day.
Other Additions to My Stacks
The followings are what I have to research and consider adding to my stack:
- Vincamine… is it equal to Vinpocetine?
- Pyritinol
- Galantamine
- N-acetyl-cysteine
- Rhodiola Rosea
- Ashwagandha
- L-Theanine
Any recommendations on the best places to purchase Galantamine? The only place I found was at smart-drugs.net, where 30 caps (8mg/cap) is $23.95.
QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Nov 27, 2006, 01:01 PM)
Any recommendations on the best places to purchase Galantamine? The only place I found was at smart-drugs.net, where 30 caps (8mg/cap) is $23.95.
I second this post. My best find has been for 90 caps (4mg) for $35.95
QUOTE
Any recommendations on the best places to purchase Galantamine?
See Cognitive Resources there are a few different sources.
QUOTE
(LifeMirage)
Keep taking Piracetam and aniracetam and/or replace one of them with Oxiracetam. The racetam class compounds are the Most important compounds anyone can take for enhanced brain functioning in the areas you are looking to augment.
That's a strong statement LifeMirage. Personally I disagree and never really noticed any changes when I took any of the racetams. I have tried piracetam, aniracetam and oxiracetam. Scientifically I also disagree as most studies suggest that the racetams, such as piracetam, seem to only be effective in compromised situations.
Keep taking Piracetam and aniracetam and/or replace one of them with Oxiracetam. The racetam class compounds are the Most important compounds anyone can take for enhanced brain functioning in the areas you are looking to augment.
That's a strong statement LifeMirage. Personally I disagree and never really noticed any changes when I took any of the racetams. I have tried piracetam, aniracetam and oxiracetam. Scientifically I also disagree as most studies suggest that the racetams, such as piracetam, seem to only be effective in compromised situations.
Strong and accurate. From my experience with literally 1,000's of people with both healthy and minor health issues in the past 10 years ranging from 6-40 years old, they have proven to be quite effective especially when taken for at least a 3-6 month period. Some people do not "feel" any effect from certain nootropics but they do have an active effect in the brain and IQ tests can confirm changes are being made. Regarding the research understanding of mode of action is far more important than the number of studies in completely healthy people, in part due to the fact most people have some health issue but regardless there are a number of studies showing Piracetam to benefit normal healthy adults. I do appreciate the role of healthy human studies however and as such I am in the process of conducting several studies on Piracetam as well as several other nootropics in 2007. Take note that the medical establishment have little incentive on researching compounds on enhancing cognition, thus massive studies on this subject on any drug have not been done. You may however refer to the Cognitive Research thread to read some of the studies done on healthy adults.
QUOTE
(Krystal)
I have just lowered my intake of Vitamin B5 from 250mg to 125mg due to noticeable stiffness in my neck and shoulders and unintentional muscle contractions. If this doesn't help, I will further lower it to 60mg.
A lot will argue that the reason why you have stiffness in your neck is because of the piracetam supplementation without supplementing with a good choline donor. I experienced neck stiffness a few times when using piracetam and I have heard of many others who have experienced the same. You need to find a balance between piracetam and choline supplementation.
I have just lowered my intake of Vitamin B5 from 250mg to 125mg due to noticeable stiffness in my neck and shoulders and unintentional muscle contractions. If this doesn't help, I will further lower it to 60mg.
A lot will argue that the reason why you have stiffness in your neck is because of the piracetam supplementation without supplementing with a good choline donor. I experienced neck stiffness a few times when using piracetam and I have heard of many others who have experienced the same. You need to find a balance between piracetam and choline supplementation.
While there is no direct research supporting that I am aware of, several anecdotal reports indicate adding an excellent ACh donor can be of benefit.
QUOTE
(LifeMirage)
I would consider adding Vincamine and/or Pyritinol.
I have seen you recommend pyritinol on many occasions. I use to use pyritinol myself until I discovered the following
QUOTE
Maria V, Albuquerque A, Loureiro A, Sousa A, Victorino R.
Severe cholestatic hepatitis induced by pyritinol.
BMJ. 2004 Mar 6;328(7439):572-4. No abstract available.
PMID: 15001508 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Straumann A, Bauer M, Pichler WJ, Pirovino M.
Acute pancreatitis due to pyritinol: an immune-mediated phenomenon.
Gastroenterology. 1998 Aug;115(2):452-4.
PMID: 9679051 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Wigger-Alberti W, Elsner P.
Occupational contact dermatitis due to pyritinol.
Contact Dermatitis. 1997 Aug;37(2):91-2. No abstract available.
PMID: 9285173 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Macedo G, Sarmento JA, Allegro S.
Acute hepatitis due to pyritinol.
Gastroenterol Clin Biol. 1992;16(2):186-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 1568548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Hence, as a result of the above mentioned case studies, 2 of which state that pyritinol supplementation resulted in hepatitis, I do not take or recommend pyritinol anymore.
I would consider adding Vincamine and/or Pyritinol.
I have seen you recommend pyritinol on many occasions. I use to use pyritinol myself until I discovered the following
QUOTE
Maria V, Albuquerque A, Loureiro A, Sousa A, Victorino R.
Severe cholestatic hepatitis induced by pyritinol.
BMJ. 2004 Mar 6;328(7439):572-4. No abstract available.
PMID: 15001508 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Straumann A, Bauer M, Pichler WJ, Pirovino M.
Acute pancreatitis due to pyritinol: an immune-mediated phenomenon.
Gastroenterology. 1998 Aug;115(2):452-4.
PMID: 9679051 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Wigger-Alberti W, Elsner P.
Occupational contact dermatitis due to pyritinol.
Contact Dermatitis. 1997 Aug;37(2):91-2. No abstract available.
PMID: 9285173 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
QUOTE
Macedo G, Sarmento JA, Allegro S.
Acute hepatitis due to pyritinol.
Gastroenterol Clin Biol. 1992;16(2):186-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 1568548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Hence, as a result of the above mentioned case studies, 2 of which state that pyritinol supplementation resulted in hepatitis, I do not take or recommend pyritinol anymore.
Pyritinol (pyridoxine disulfide) is a Vitamin B-6 derivative created by bonding 2 molecules of B-6 together. Since created my Merck Labs in the 1960's it approved and studied worldwide in children as well as adults in conditions ranging from learning disorders, Rheumatoid Arthritis, and healthy adults.
In all the studies conducted using Pyritinol little risk of serious reaction has been noted with Rheumatoid arthritis being an exception in which case a small percentage of patients had a mild to moderate reaction.
The risk of a serious reaction in a healthy person is quite rare and I would compare it to the B-Vitamin Niacin which can cause a serious reaction such as the following; hypothermia, hypotension, metabolic acidosis, severe hepatic dysfunction, hepatotoxicity, hematemesis, and hepatitis*. Note however most people taking niacin will not see any side effects and can benefit from this important B-Vitamin.
*Am J Med. 1992 Jul;93(1):102-4.
Hepatotoxicity associated with sustained-release niacin.
Mayo Clin Proc. 1991 Jan;66(1):23-8.
Niacin-induced hepatitis: a potential side effect with low-dose time-release niacin.
Am J Med Sci. 1989 Sep;298(3):191-3.
Hepatitis and hematemesis complicating nicotinic acid use.
South Med J. 1983 Feb;76(2):239-41.
Niacin hepatitis.
J Clin Gastroenterol. 1987 Oct;9(5):582-4.
Nicotinic acid-induced fulminant hepatic failure.
Your above listed studies are mostly case reports (as are my posted niacin studies) which are quite different from clinical trials in a number of respects. Mostly in regards to many of the people were taking other medications during pyritinol use which can cause dispute as to which drug and or combination of drugs caused the problem and many of those people were not healthy to begin with. But also that the total number of people known to have a reported reaction based on your posts is under 50 from the 1,000's of people who have taken pyritinol both in the human studies, in the past 40 years, and recent years.
I see no problem recommending Pyritinol as a potent as relatively safe compound for cognitive enhancement based on all the available data. The Life Extension Foundation and American Academy of Antiaging Medicine also support and recommend the use of Pyritinol both as an antiaging and nootropic supplement.
If you were taking Pyritinol and saw no negative side effects I would suggest resuming your use of it Zoolander.
Wow! is all I've got to say here. This is the sort of discussion you always want to come across. This is one to archive already and it's getting better with each post. This is spot on to many areas and specific subjects I was very interested in myself. What I really like is the friendly interplay between LM and Zoo. Both of them having advanced degrees and training in related areas.
First, let me give my credentials... none at all. That's right, I do not claim to have graduated from the first grade. I got held back a lot. On top of that, I'm an anonymous person on the internet. I, like many but not all others, prefer to choose relative safety over the slight risk that comes with openness. So take everything I say with a grain of salt and assume first that it may be a joke. People have suffered from temporary insanity from reading my posts. I kid you not.
In my opinion, (IMO) how people react to some of these substances and combinations of substances is highly variable and will be unique in some ways to each individual. The young often report no effect or can't put their finger on it. Many young have reported benefits including those with no illness or obvious symptoms. I would say the elderly, lets say those over 40, do get the most benefits and the advanced age groups get progrssively more benefit on average. But, some older people may report no benefits or too many side effects. This is according to reports I've heard and much of my own experience. If you talk to someone who benefited from piracetam, for example, you will hear positive reports. If you talk to someone who got no benefit or had side effects, you hear a more dismal view of it. I will say Zoo did cover both sides of the issue as did LM.
I would say if it was me that if something like piracetam didnt work for you and you had tried choline with it, then try one of the other racetams and see how that one works for you. It does usually take a while for it to kick in. If you give up after a week or so or skip days then you aren't giving it a good trial. Some of the effects are subtle and may not be what you are looking for. They may be quite nice once you notice them. Music appreciation, just for example.
First, let me give my credentials... none at all. That's right, I do not claim to have graduated from the first grade. I got held back a lot. On top of that, I'm an anonymous person on the internet. I, like many but not all others, prefer to choose relative safety over the slight risk that comes with openness. So take everything I say with a grain of salt and assume first that it may be a joke. People have suffered from temporary insanity from reading my posts. I kid you not.
In my opinion, (IMO) how people react to some of these substances and combinations of substances is highly variable and will be unique in some ways to each individual. The young often report no effect or can't put their finger on it. Many young have reported benefits including those with no illness or obvious symptoms. I would say the elderly, lets say those over 40, do get the most benefits and the advanced age groups get progrssively more benefit on average. But, some older people may report no benefits or too many side effects. This is according to reports I've heard and much of my own experience. If you talk to someone who benefited from piracetam, for example, you will hear positive reports. If you talk to someone who got no benefit or had side effects, you hear a more dismal view of it. I will say Zoo did cover both sides of the issue as did LM.
I would say if it was me that if something like piracetam didnt work for you and you had tried choline with it, then try one of the other racetams and see how that one works for you. It does usually take a while for it to kick in. If you give up after a week or so or skip days then you aren't giving it a good trial. Some of the effects are subtle and may not be what you are looking for. They may be quite nice once you notice them. Music appreciation, just for example.
It pretty much goes without saying that the only ones whos advice on drugs is taken seriously is Lee Crost and Shawn Mikula.
Life Mirage really knows his stuff and thats why he has such a high reputation on this forum.
Life Mirage really knows his stuff and thats why he has such a high reputation on this forum.
QUOTE
It pretty much goes without saying that the only ones whos advice on drugs is taken seriously is Lee Crost and Shawn Mikula.
Pardon me but who is Shawn Mikula? I know that Zoo does have the credentials he stated. He was a phd candidate for a long time. LM of course is very well known. I also pay close attention to the reports from people who used the drugs in question. Personal anecdotes do not mean you necessarily will have the same effects but gives you an idea of the range of effects you may see.
QUOTE(xanadu @ Nov 29, 2006, 12:35 PM)
QUOTE
It pretty much goes without saying that the only ones whos advice on drugs is taken seriously is Lee Crost and Shawn Mikula.
Pardon me but who is Shawn Mikula? I know that Zoo does have the credentials he stated. He was a phd candidate for a long time. LM of course is very well known. I also pay close attention to the reports from people who used the drugs in question. Personal anecdotes do not mean you necessarily will have the same effects but gives you an idea of the range of effects you may see.
Just go to the Brainmeta.com homepage to find out more about Shawn
Click Here
QUOTE(zoolander)
That's a strong statement LifeMirage. Personally I disagree and never really noticed any changes when I took any of the racetams. I have tried piracetam, aniracetam and oxiracetam. Scientifically I also disagree as most studies suggest that the racetams, such as piracetam, seem to only be effective in compromised situations.
QUOTE(LifeMirage)
Strong and accurate. From my experience with literally 1,000's of people with both healthy and minor health issues in the past 10 years ranging from 6-40 years old, they have proven to be quite effective especially when taken for at least a 3-6 month period. Some people do not "feel" any effect from certain nootropics but they do have an active effect in the brain and IQ tests can confirm changes are being made.
I made comments about your comments being strong Lee. To say that they are accurate then you will need to provide some sort of quanitative proof i.e data. Hopefully, you can get your piracetam study up and running soon and then you can put the data where your mouth is, if I can modify a coined phrase
QUOTE(LifeMirage)
Regarding the research understanding of mode of action is far more important than the number of studies in completely healthy people, in part due to the fact most people have some health issue but regardless there are a number of studies showing Piracetam to benefit normal healthy adults
Would you mind referencing these for me so I can have a read.
Re. my comments about recommending pyritinol, you state
QUOTE(LifeMirage)
In all the studies conducted using Pyritinol little risk of serious reaction has been noted with Rheumatoid arthritis being an exception in which case a small percentage of patients had a mild to moderate reaction.
But I provided references for studies where hepatitis, acute pancreatitis, and Occupational contact dermatitis occured due to pyritinol supplementation. So Rheumatoid arthritis is not the only exception. So to say "In all[u] studies" is not really telling the truth.
Good point about the Niacin. You can make this cross comparison with alot of supplements. My point I guess is that we try and put everything on the table because at the end of the day, even though krystal is asking for advice/recommendation, she/he will ultimately be making the final choice. Hopefully based on the information that we provide here at Brainmeta.
In reagrds to the reintroduction of pyritinol in my supplement regime.....well I have a little bit on hand but might just keep a sharp eye on the research. Are you conducting any studies on pyritinol in the near future?
QUOTE(xanadu)
What I really like is the friendly interplay between LM and Zoo. Both of them having advanced degrees and training in related areas.
Cheers xanadu.
QUOTE(maximus242)
It pretty much goes without saying that the only ones whos advice on drugs is taken seriously is Lee Crost and Shawn Mikula.
Life Mirage really knows his stuff and thats why he has such a high reputation on this forum.
Life Mirage really knows his stuff and thats why he has such a high reputation on this forum.
With a little more time maximus you might just be adding me to that list. I have many years of experiance behind me as well with a PhD to boot.
I warn you though. I'm a sloppy spelling corrector and am aften lazy with my grammer. WHOOPS!QUOTE
zoolander:
That's a strong statement LifeMirage. Personally I disagree and never really noticed any changes when I took any of the racetams. I have tried piracetam, aniracetam and oxiracetam. Scientifically I also disagree as most studies suggest that the racetams, such as piracetam, seem to only be effective in compromised situations.
LifeMirage:
Strong and accurate. From my experience with literally 1,000's of people with both healthy and minor health issues in the past 10 years ranging from 6-40 years old, they have proven to be quite effective especially when taken for at least a 3-6 month period. Some people do not "feel" any effect from certain nootropics but they do have an active effect in the brain and IQ tests can confirm changes are being made.
zoolander:
I made comments about your comments being strong Lee. To say that they are accurate then you will need to provide some sort of quanitative proof i.e data. Hopefully, you can get your piracetam study up and running soon and then you can put the data where your mouth is, if I can modify a coined phrase.
That's a strong statement LifeMirage. Personally I disagree and never really noticed any changes when I took any of the racetams. I have tried piracetam, aniracetam and oxiracetam. Scientifically I also disagree as most studies suggest that the racetams, such as piracetam, seem to only be effective in compromised situations.
LifeMirage:
Strong and accurate. From my experience with literally 1,000's of people with both healthy and minor health issues in the past 10 years ranging from 6-40 years old, they have proven to be quite effective especially when taken for at least a 3-6 month period. Some people do not "feel" any effect from certain nootropics but they do have an active effect in the brain and IQ tests can confirm changes are being made.
zoolander:
I made comments about your comments being strong Lee. To say that they are accurate then you will need to provide some sort of quanitative proof i.e data. Hopefully, you can get your piracetam study up and running soon and then you can put the data where your mouth is, if I can modify a coined phrase.
The level and type of proof/data that is needed to convince any person is highly variable. A perfect example is the FDA and their use of a term called significant scientific agreement. I've seen them argue that without large scale double blind peer reviewed placebo controlled studies using only methods of confirmation they approve of or recognize, they consider most dietary supplement health claims to be untrue. The health benefits of Omega 3's are a good example although it appears recently they have finally accepted this as a scientific truth.
I assume your comment above refers to questioning both aspects of my statement? The first stating nootropics (I should not generalize since the term is used vaguely so I will refer just to Piracetam for the moment) have an active biochemical effect in the brain and the 2nd that some nootropics can affect IQ? The former of which is based the massive amount of research done on humans (regardless of health/age) indicating and confirm Piracetam has established several biochemical effects both conferring to cardiovascular health and cognitive health. The former of which does refer more to my experiences with individuals taking Piracetam.
QUOTE
LifeMirage:
Regarding the research understanding of mode of action is far more important than the number of studies in completely healthy people, in part due to the fact most people have some health issue but regardless there are a number of studies showing Piracetam to benefit normal healthy adults
zoolander:
Would you mind referencing these for me so I can have a read.
Regarding the research understanding of mode of action is far more important than the number of studies in completely healthy people, in part due to the fact most people have some health issue but regardless there are a number of studies showing Piracetam to benefit normal healthy adults
zoolander:
Would you mind referencing these for me so I can have a read.
As I already stated you can view some of the research I have posted on this forum in the Cognitive Research section. While not a "total" list of studies it gives an indication of what is available in English abstracts.
QUOTE
zoolander:
Re. my comments about recommending pyritinol, you state
LifeMirage:
In all the studies conducted using Pyritinol little risk of serious reaction has been noted with Rheumatoid arthritis being an exception in which case a small percentage of patients had a mild to moderate reaction.
zoolander:
But I provided references for studies where hepatitis, acute pancreatitis, and Occupational contact dermatitis occured due to pyritinol supplementation. So Rheumatoid arthritis is not the only exception. So to say "In all[u] studies" is not really telling the truth.
Re. my comments about recommending pyritinol, you state
LifeMirage:
In all the studies conducted using Pyritinol little risk of serious reaction has been noted with Rheumatoid arthritis being an exception in which case a small percentage of patients had a mild to moderate reaction.
zoolander:
But I provided references for studies where hepatitis, acute pancreatitis, and Occupational contact dermatitis occured due to pyritinol supplementation. So Rheumatoid arthritis is not the only exception. So to say "In all[u] studies" is not really telling the truth.
Some "Truths" are always open to interpretation. As I previously stated you posted a few case reports. For obvious reasons I do not view them as clinical studies and thus do not give them the same amount of scientific weight. Which I would assume you would agree. A case "study" consisting of one or a few people who basically feel ill so they go to report to their doctor (which they may not include a number of possible illegal drugs, supplements they were taking or they could have an unknown diagnosis that the doctor may not test for). This unfortunately is common and why we have differential diagnosis.
While in a clinical study people are generally more screened for health issues and doctors are actively looking for side effects from the drug. If Pyritinol was a dangerous (or rather had a high incidence of serious side effects) then the clinical studies done (rather than a few case reports) surely would reveal that. But in my review of the Clinical studies the risk of serious side effects is minimal (similar to the B-Vitamin Niacin) and all since all symptoms in those case reports disappeared shortly after discontinuing with no lasting effects, I see no reason not to try it. Not worse that could happen is you feel ill and discontinue it like any other supplement, food, or drug you find you have a negative reaction to.
QUOTE
zoolander:
Good point about the Niacin. You can make this cross comparison with alot of supplements. My point I guess is that we try and put everything on the table because at the end of the day, even though krystal is asking for advice/recommendation, she/he will ultimately be making the final choice. Hopefully based on the information that we provide here at Brainmeta.
Good point about the Niacin. You can make this cross comparison with alot of supplements. My point I guess is that we try and put everything on the table because at the end of the day, even though krystal is asking for advice/recommendation, she/he will ultimately be making the final choice. Hopefully based on the information that we provide here at Brainmeta.
I don't mind and surprisingly appreciate your interjection (albeit it a different thread may have been more appropriate). Constant questioning of our opinions allows us to evolve our understanding, defend it, and develop greater levels of perception.
QUOTE
zoolander:
In regards to the reintroduction of pyritinol in my supplement regime.....well I have a little bit on hand but might just keep a sharp eye on the research. Are you conducting any studies on pyritinol in the near future?
In regards to the reintroduction of pyritinol in my supplement regime.....well I have a little bit on hand but might just keep a sharp eye on the research. Are you conducting any studies on pyritinol in the near future?
Perhaps after a few studies on Piracetam I will further explore Pyritinol. PM me if you would like to share a little more detail regarding my thoughts exactly how Pyritinol may have played a factor in those care reports.
QUOTE
xanadu:
What I really like is the friendly interplay between LM and Zoo. Both of them having advanced degrees and training in related areas.
zoolander:
Cheers xanadu.
What I really like is the friendly interplay between LM and Zoo. Both of them having advanced degrees and training in related areas.
zoolander:
Cheers xanadu.
I would second that. Your friendly intelligent debate style is very well welcomed here Zoolander. I warmly welcome you to the board.
QUOTE
maximus242
It pretty much goes without saying that the only ones whos advice on drugs is taken seriously is Lee Crost and Shawn Mikula. Life Mirage really knows his stuff and thats why he has such a high reputation on this forum.
zoolander:
With a little more time maximus you might just be adding me to that list. I have many years of experience behind me as well with a PhD to boot. I warn you though. I'm a sloppy spelling corrector and am often lazy with my grammar. WHOOPS!
It pretty much goes without saying that the only ones whos advice on drugs is taken seriously is Lee Crost and Shawn Mikula. Life Mirage really knows his stuff and thats why he has such a high reputation on this forum.
zoolander:
With a little more time maximus you might just be adding me to that list. I have many years of experience behind me as well with a PhD to boot. I warn you though. I'm a sloppy spelling corrector and am often lazy with my grammar. WHOOPS!
Good grammar says a little about ones IQ, except their ability to spell. I believe everyone can contribute something to brainmeta and hopefully collectively.....just like the borg.
QUOTE(Krystal Ho @ Nov 25, 2006, 06:08 AM)
Hello to you all. This is my first post in this forum.
I have a *very* mentally demanding career which requires
- analytical and creative thinking
- excellent communication skills
- excellent decision making and problem solving skills
- strong motivation
- quick response
- long working hours, etc.
========================
I am impressed by your approach. I get most of what you are taking from one source or another. I try to use what I call the pneumatological approach. Keep up the good work.
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 10, 2006, 12:52 AM)
I get most of what you are taking from one source or another.
I would say that you probably can not find a single substance that no one has had a bad reaction to. That could include even vitamin C. People have reported kidney stones, gastric upset and so on from that. People have died from drinking too much water.
I think LM has a good point that many of the people who have reported no benefits from using piracetam may have had benefits they didn't notice. It may be that the advance PR made them expect something earth shaking and when the earth did not shake, they rejected it as ineffective. Many other substances such as fish oil, vinpocetine, bacopa and so on are not expected to do anything dramatic right away so people take them for a longer period and are not as demanding of instant results or large results. Still other things such as a good vitamin regimine, eating proper foods and so on will not show a dramatic difference unless the person had a very poor diet before that. Yet we use these things because studies have shown benefits and we believe the studies. Piracetam has been reviewed for decades with no significant toxicity so there is virtually no risk in using it or in continuing to use it if you don't notice results right away. It's a can't lose proposition, IMO. Be sure to use a choline source with it.
I think LM has a good point that many of the people who have reported no benefits from using piracetam may have had benefits they didn't notice. It may be that the advance PR made them expect something earth shaking and when the earth did not shake, they rejected it as ineffective. Many other substances such as fish oil, vinpocetine, bacopa and so on are not expected to do anything dramatic right away so people take them for a longer period and are not as demanding of instant results or large results. Still other things such as a good vitamin regimine, eating proper foods and so on will not show a dramatic difference unless the person had a very poor diet before that. Yet we use these things because studies have shown benefits and we believe the studies. Piracetam has been reviewed for decades with no significant toxicity so there is virtually no risk in using it or in continuing to use it if you don't notice results right away. It's a can't lose proposition, IMO. Be sure to use a choline source with it.
QUOTE
I think LM has a good point that many of the people who have reported no benefits from using piracetam may have had benefits they didn't notice.
Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1976 Aug;54(2):150-60.
Piracetam-induced improvement of mental performance. A controlled study
on normally aging individuals.
Mindus P, Cronholm B, Levander SE, Schalling D.
"Moderate but statistically significant improvements (up to 12% vs placebo; p < 0.05) in a range of assessments of cognition were obtained in 18 healthy individuals aged 50 years or more who received piracetam as part of an 8-week, double blind crossover study. However, individuals' own ratings of their mental and psychological condition did not reveal any significant differences between piracetam and placebo."
Superb discussion--thanks all. I like the constructive and non-adversarial debate style; it is more elicitative than competitive.
I am new to the board and over and over have heard this "I didn't feel anything when I tried Piracetam." I would ask that when folks "report this finding," that they describe precisely the protocol adhered to, degree of compliance, and duration as they report their perception of the non-evident phenomenological difference.
Are you looking to compare the before and after "feeling" or experience of Piracetam, to say,
the before and after difference of 4-5 ounces of alcohol?
the before and after difference of street drug ingestion?
the before and after difference of say 10mgs of diazepam?
The issue is: "do I notice a difference?" So first define what difference you are expecting.
My research thus far convinces me to stick with Piracetam and Deprenyl regardless of whether I feel a difference because I am convinced by the data and the studies. I am seeking what those compounds provide, not a phenomenological difference. Self awareness of relatively overt cognitive processing is highly variable, let alone the very subtle, highly nuanced yet unequivocal effects (IQ, SAT, Cognitive test peformances) of these compounds.
I don't feel different taking a multi-vitamin, multi-mineral either, or 1 81mg aspirin a day either. But I will continue doing so. And I know that the effects will be there. Statistically, I am stacking the odds.
Think about it, a 5-15% increase can be the difference between good performance and masterful performance.
Peace!
I am new to the board and over and over have heard this "I didn't feel anything when I tried Piracetam." I would ask that when folks "report this finding," that they describe precisely the protocol adhered to, degree of compliance, and duration as they report their perception of the non-evident phenomenological difference.
Are you looking to compare the before and after "feeling" or experience of Piracetam, to say,
the before and after difference of 4-5 ounces of alcohol?
the before and after difference of street drug ingestion?
the before and after difference of say 10mgs of diazepam?
The issue is: "do I notice a difference?" So first define what difference you are expecting.
My research thus far convinces me to stick with Piracetam and Deprenyl regardless of whether I feel a difference because I am convinced by the data and the studies. I am seeking what those compounds provide, not a phenomenological difference. Self awareness of relatively overt cognitive processing is highly variable, let alone the very subtle, highly nuanced yet unequivocal effects (IQ, SAT, Cognitive test peformances) of these compounds.
I don't feel different taking a multi-vitamin, multi-mineral either, or 1 81mg aspirin a day either. But I will continue doing so. And I know that the effects will be there. Statistically, I am stacking the odds.
Think about it, a 5-15% increase can be the difference between good performance and masterful performance.
Peace!
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