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Lindsay
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 05, 2006, 07:06 PM) *

QUOTE
JESUS WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN; HE WAS A REFORM JEW

He never considered himself as either.
I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop, Joesus. Please give us The Truth!!! Please! smile.gif

Readers, keep in mind: As an epitheist/unitheist, I make no claim to having The Truth. I readily admit that I have only my personal opinion as to the Jesus of history. I will wait for the invention of time machines to uncover the facts.

I repeat: I abhor dogmatism of all kinds...even when there appears to be concrete evidence that such and such is so and so. Meanwhile, I am quite willing to agree that all I have to offer is: MY opinion.
Flex
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 07, 2006, 04:00 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 05, 2006, 07:06 PM) *

QUOTE
JESUS WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN; HE WAS A REFORM JEW

He never considered himself as either.
I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop, Joesus. Please give us The Truth!!! Please! smile.gif

Readers, keep in mind: As an epitheist/unitheist, I make no claim to having The Truth. I readily admit that I have only my personal opinion as to the Jesus of history. I will wait for the invention of time machines to uncover the facts.

I repeat: I abhor dogmatism of all kinds...even when there appears to be concrete evidence that such and such is so and so. Meanwhile, I am quite willing to agree that all I have to offer is: MY opinion.


And your opinion is greatly appreciated and respected (at least in my neck of the brain meta woods).
Joesus
QUOTE
I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop, Joesus. Please give us The Truth!!! Please!
What other shoe? If you are wanting to know what label Jesus used, I think you would be looking to bring him to your level of thinking rather than rising to his.
Hey Hey
[quote name='Lindsay' date='Dec 08, 2006, 12:00 AM' post='73122']
[quote name='Joesus' post='72872' date='Dec 05, 2006, 07:06 PM']
[quote] JESUS WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN; HE WAS A REFORM JEW[/quote]
I will wait for the invention of time machines to uncover the facts.
[/quote]
According to a recent report, you can only go back as far as when the first time machine was built. That could be in the future, but it certainly won't be in the past!

Professor Ronald Mallet's idea explained: http://advance.uconn.edu/2001/010910/01091012.htm

(Quotes have gone funny again - hack on its way again @!*?)
code buttons
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 07, 2006, 09:26 PM) *

(Quotes have gone funny again - hack on its way again @!*?)

Look at your quotes on Jay and Lin: There's one too many "(/quote) in them. I've been getting a kick out of watching you fight yourself all day long, though!!! Hee! Hee!
Hey Hey
QUOTE(code buttons @ Dec 08, 2006, 06:29 AM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 07, 2006, 09:26 PM) *

(Quotes have gone funny again - hack on its way again @!*?)

Look at your quotes on Jay and Lin: There's one too many "(/quote) in them. I've been getting a kick out of watching you fight yourself all day long, though!!! Hee! Hee!
Strange, I thought I had previewed it. You spotted a code error, code! laugh.gif But it is one (/quote) not enough, not one too many! See below when an extra (/quote) is inserted after JESUS WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN; HE WAS A REFORM JEW. I think you knew that and continued the game.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 08, 2006, 05:26 AM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 08, 2006, 12:00 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 05, 2006, 07:06 PM) *

QUOTE
JESUS WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN; HE WAS A REFORM JEW

I will wait for the invention of time machines to uncover the facts.

According to a recent report, you can only go back as far as when the first time machine was built. That could be in the future, but it certainly won't be in the past!

Professor Ronald Mallet's idea explained: http://advance.uconn.edu/2001/010910/01091012.htm

(Quotes have gone funny again - hack on its way again @!*?)
Lindsay
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 07, 2006, 05:57 PM) *

QUOTE
I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop, Joesus. Please give us The Truth!!! Please!
What other shoe? If you are wanting to know what label Jesus used, I think you would be looking to bring him to your level of thinking rather than rising to his.
How does one find out and measure ones level of thinking? I am all ears. Now that you "know" mine, I presume you don't mind revealing yours.smile.gif
Lindsay
HH, thanks for the facinating article on the work of Professor Ronald Mallett, University of Connecticut.
What an imagination he must have.

This is the first time I have heard that serious scientists are doing work on time travel. Now I understand why, in my early days as a student, I was very interested in physics, chemistry and maths and seriously thought of going into science as a career.

Also, now I understand why the dynamics predicted by quatum theory won't let us go back in time and make changes. But I have the feeling that this does not mean that we cannot go back and replay what happened to those who lived before us. Am I a fool for thinking this?

Perhaps the total universe (I call it GØD) is one vast depository of lazer-based three-dimesional recordings of all that has ever happened before now. Each of us, wrapped in our own personality, and along with others and things, is wrapped within the totality of the universe. But this past is fixed.

Believe it or not, I once sang with Bing without him being aware that I was there. Here is how I did it. I have some old Bing Crosby records. Years ago--in the late 1960's--when I got my first tape recorder I had some fun recording Bing's voice on my tape and pretending that I was the MC introducing him. Not only that, I added my basso voice to his voice. I pretended that he had invited me to sing along with him. My children--Catherine 12, and Turner 10--were very amused. I hope it stimulated their imagination, which Einstein once said is "more important than knowledge".

Now, thanks to professor Mallett, it seems we are on the verge of developing a technology which will allow us to go back and not just read, history, see old picture and hear old recordings, but, but to un-wrap it in three dimensions, perhaps in any detail. By using a virtual-imagery machine, we will be able to explore what happened--without affecting what happened--with all our senses.

CHARLES DICKENS' CHRISTMAS CAROL
Think of the impact that this can have on how we now experience the present and, most importantly, how we can use this history to shape the future. The famous story by Charles Dickens makes this point. As one "ghost' said, "I wear the chains I forged in life."

Surely, a generation of truly educated people, historians all, seeing, viewing in virtual-theatres, the past as it was recorded, will now be equipped to do more than just repeat old mistakes. Like with quantum mechanics, the mental and spiritual possibilities of this "realstory" pregnant with this kind of knowledge, are infinite.

BTW, today, both my children are artists. My 50 year old daughter lives with her artist husband on a floating estate--it is more than a house--at Tofino, on the west coast of Vancouver Island, BC. My 48 year old son is a teacher and a jazz professional, here in toronto. Their talent amazes me. Both have great imaginations.

Here is what it looks like near TOFINO, BEAUTIFUL BC
http://www.wildretreat.com/facil_fr.html

HH, as you point out:
QUOTE
The story is called the "Grandparent Paradox" and it's no parlor game. Among scientists who ponder the possibility of time travel, it's a classic conundrum. According to quantum theory, practically an infinite number of possibilities exist simultaneously. If you traveled through time, you could encounter yourself in any of the alternative scenarios, but you could not alter the flow of your own space-time continuum. It's physically impossible.

Mallett knows about these things, because he's a physicist. He also firmly believes time travel is possible. Sometime next year, in fact, he hopes to produce the first piece of technology that eventually will allow him to build a time machine. It will be a device that employs lasers to actually twist space. And he plans to build it right here, at the University of Connecticut.

I agree, we cannot change the past, and the future is yet to come; but the present is a present. Sounds GOØD to me.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 08, 2006, 03:01 PM) *

Here is what it looks like near TOFINO, BEAUTIFUL BC
http://www.wildretreat.com/facil_fr.html
This looks wonderful Lindsay. In the past, when I was financially well endowed I would have planned to go there in the future. Now I am past it and have no future. Never mind, I can pass my time looking at the pictures. (pun intended).
Joesus
QUOTE
How does one find out and measure ones level of thinking? I am all ears.

You don't, that is what the ego does. The ego sets landmark ideas to anchor itself in reality. The foundation it builds is what it identifies with. Everything about reality then is fit and filtered through these landmark parameters and anything that doesn't fit is altered to fit and turned into something recognizable. This keeps the ego within its temporary castle walls. Until death the walls are held up by belief.





QUOTE
Now that you "know" mine, I presume you don't mind revealing yours.


I have heard what you claim to be. But you only believe in what you have accrued in your memory and a fantasy beyond what you have memorized which still fits within the box you have built.

Mine is the same as yours, you just haven't discovered what that is yet. You would have to let go of your ideas about who you are, your pride and attachment to being Reverend King and everything else you are attached to. Generally speaking people over 50 are saturated with programming and are less likely to be open to knowing or experiencing the truth beyond any relative boundaries.
Unlike a child who absorbs complex languages easily within a few months the typical adult struggles with the ability to learn a new language let alone open themselves to the possibilities because of the attachment process to memory and the past experience.

Everytime you greet someone new in this forum you lay out your biography, your GØD, your label epitheist/unitheist and everytime you want to make a point about who and what you are in your posts you lay out your biography, your GØD, your label epitheist/unitheist.

Here again you wish me to label myself, my God and lay out my biography. You wouldn't seem to know what to do with me without these conditions.
You seem more insistant in containing me in the same manner you have contained yourself.

You said you abhor Dogma but this is the very foundation of Dogma. To contain God or the universe within the systematic beliefs and labeling of the absolute into form.
Moses spent 40 some odd years contemplating the name of God and when addressing the voice speaking to him while the burning bush thing was happening the voice spoke to him in reply to the question, "What do I call you?" The voice said tell your people "I am becoming."

I have past life memories, should my label include the biography of those lives? Should I include my spiritual and Political commitments in those lives or should I isolate myself to this life and say this is all that I am?

You limit yourself to being a kindly old forgetful man of 76 but you forget yourself if that is all that you are and if you cannot see yourself in everything around you then God becomes an abhorration.
Flex
If one is not defined by their beliefs (and their accomplishments under the given beliefes) then what constitutes character? I cannot see myself in all that is around me, and I am not 76, but only 17 and very free from dogma (with the exception of our government).

I know I define myself by my beliefs and accomplishments. My beliefes will always be changing, and upgrading; however, accomplishments will remain static to my character. Even though my beliefes are constantly changing, I will still be defined by my values at any given point.

At death, I believe that since one is no longer capable of establishing a belief system, all that will remain of the individuals character will be the individuals accomplishments. Granted I do not have past life memories, as you seem to, but if I did, I would surely add my accomplishments in my past life to my list.
Enki
Dogma is a firewall protecting consciousness from viruses. But dogma should be upgraded periodically but relatively slowly to assure reliability of existence and protect from abrupt negative fluctuations. But when dogma is not updated people become stupid and retarded.

Dogma should be regularly be verified with reality and get gradually reshaped with expansion of human understanding of the world. Traditions should not be discarded so easily. Let us never forget how dramatic all turned for Rome when ceramic water pipes were changed to pipes made of lead in the houses of some noble Romans, the national elite started to tend to develop some sort of schizophrenia due to presence of heavy metals in the drinking water. That led to a chain of mad Emperors and paranoid aristocracy.

Look, for example, when Darwin theory appeared, some thinkers in the West rapidly discarded the God’s concept, that lead to origin of such horrific ideologies as Nazism and Communism were. If there had been a culture of slow evolution of dogmas, then mankind definitely would avoid such radical ideologies appeared due to inclination of some stupid people to jump to conclusions.
Lindsay
QUOTE
you forget yourself if that is all that you are and if you cannot see yourself in everything around you
Joesus.

I do this as often as I can.

I see my self in 17 year old Flex. I went off to university when I was 17.

Flex what studies attract your attention? Let me know if I can be of help. My 18 year old granddaughter went of to study science, this past fall.

Enki, where have you been? Welcome back.
What's on your mind?
Where is Eridug?
And how many is quite many?
Joesus
QUOTE
Granted I do not have past life memories, as you seem to, but if I did, I would surely add my accomplishments in my past life to my list.

Would you include all the lives you have taken?




QUOTE
Joesus.

I do this as often as I can.

I see my self in 17 year old Flex.


You mean you see your past in him, the memory of what you retain in this lifetime and in this form. What you have become, how and where you solidify the form.

God is formless.
"I am becoming" The form is the illusion of God, interpretation only.

QUOTE
I ABHOR dogmatism, period

The God that is in you is in Flex and in Dogmatism. When you see yourself in all three and with equal value and appreciation then tell me about God and yourself.


"I and my Father are one." God was born in a manger.....

Ego always limits God to an interpretation, be it ever so meaningful and expansive your gonna sell God short.

You limit yourself as well.
code buttons
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 08, 2006, 01:41 AM) *

QUOTE(code buttons @ Dec 08, 2006, 06:29 AM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 07, 2006, 09:26 PM) *

(Quotes have gone funny again - hack on its way again @!*?)

Look at your quotes on Jay and Lin: There's one too many "(/quote) in them. I've been getting a kick out of watching you fight yourself all day long, though!!! Hee! Hee!
Strange, I thought I had previewed it. You spotted a code error, code! laugh.gif But it is one (/quote) not enough, not one too many! See below when an extra (/quote) is inserted after JESUS WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN; HE WAS A REFORM JEW. I think you knew that and continued the game.

LMAO!!! You're so funny HH!!! Now, why would I have done that?! I'm not good at computers at all. I just had this hunch when you first reported the issue that morning, but I didn't stop to look at your post; untill you bitched about it again. That's soooo funny, though!!! Hee! Hee! Haa! Haa! Hoo! Hoo!
Flex
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 09, 2006, 12:12 AM) *

QUOTE
Granted I do not have past life memories, as you seem to, but if I did, I would surely add my accomplishments in my past life to my list.

Would you include all the lives you have taken?


"I and my Father are one." God was born in a manger.....

Ego always limits God to an interpretation, be it ever so meaningful and expansive your gonna sell God short.

You limit yourself as well.


Well seeing as my post clearly indicates that I do not believe in past lives and have no recollection of such lives it would be very difficult, but if I did have experience with such lives I would surely include all of them.

I agree with that quote very much (at least my interpretation). Jesus seemed to have the right idea. He realized that each of us are our own "God". I do not take that quote as to imply that Jesus was literaly the son of God, but rather that each of us should think for ourselvs and be the God of our own universe.

"Jesus you say he taught a man to fish
why then does the holy church
feed you freeze dried bible verse
when you ought to catch fresh thoughts"

Joesus
Well, to say that "Jesus" said we are our own God is not a fresh thought but it is part and parcel to creating freeze dried connotations to the truth out of illusions of reality.
Lindsay
QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 12, 2006, 06:26 AM) *


Well seeing as my post clearly indicates that I do not believe in past lives and have no recollection of such lives it would be very difficult, but if I did have experience with such lives I would surely include all of them.

I agree with that quote very much (at least my interpretation). Jesus seemed to have the right idea. He realized that each of us are our own "God". I do not take that quote as to imply that Jesus was literaly the son of God, but rather that each of us should think for ourselvs and be the God of our own universe.

"Jesus you say he taught a man to fish
why then does the holy church
feed you freeze dried bible verse
when you ought to catch fresh thoughts"
IMO, solid thinking, Flex.

Flex, please read John 10: 19 onwards. Pay particular attention to John 10:34--"I have said you are gods..." Do you have a modern version of the Bible? Use it, if you have it. BTW, I like The GOOD NEWS BIBLE.

Then read John 17: 20 to the end of the chaptrer. The United Church of Canada uses verse 22--"That all may be one", as its logo. IMO, nowhere does Jesus say: I am the son of God and you are not.
Enki
It will be so nice if Jesus join this forum one day and answer on several questions.

My first question is “Why he did not care to put on paper his ideas himself, or did not paid to someone to engrave his ideas on firm stones.” You know proper data recording, if you deliver a message of extreme importance is very important.

I suppose that I know the answer on this question, but I would like him to write the answer on this question on this forum personally.
Flex
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 12, 2006, 12:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Dec 12, 2006, 06:26 AM) *


Well seeing as my post clearly indicates that I do not believe in past lives and have no recollection of such lives it would be very difficult, but if I did have experience with such lives I would surely include all of them.

I agree with that quote very much (at least my interpretation). Jesus seemed to have the right idea. He realized that each of us are our own "God". I do not take that quote as to imply that Jesus was literaly the son of God, but rather that each of us should think for ourselvs and be the God of our own universe.

"Jesus you say he taught a man to fish
why then does the holy church
feed you freeze dried bible verse
when you ought to catch fresh thoughts"
IMO, solid thinking, Flex.

Flex, please read John 10: 19 onwards. Pay particular attention to John 10:34--"I have said you are gods..." Do you have a modern version of the Bible? Use it, if you have it. BTW, I like The GOOD NEWS BIBLE.

Then read John 17: 20 to the end of the chaptrer. The United Church of Canada uses verse 22--"That all may be one", as its logo. IMO, nowhere does Jesus say: I am the son of God and you are not.


Well I have whatever Bible is in my hotel room any given night smile.gif I will give it a read~ I also have some version of the Bible on CD as well as Buddhist Meditations, and a version of the ????? (Quran). I am trying to get through as many of the Holy books as possible while driving.
Joesus
QUOTE
My first question is “Why he did not care to put on paper his ideas himself, or did not paid to someone to engrave his ideas on firm stones.” You know proper data recording, if you deliver a message of extreme importance is very important.

He left a great message. He healed the sick, resurrected the dead and then died and brought himself back from the dead.
He kept telling the people that their illusions of who they thought they were, (meat sacks victimized by circomstance) was nonsense. He spoke of Truth and demonstrated Truth.

You could show it live on CNN, but hardly anyone that was there believed it then, and few would believe it now.

He knew he had better things to do than write a book about reality
Flex
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 05:23 PM) *

QUOTE
My first question is “Why he did not care to put on paper his ideas himself, or did not paid to someone to engrave his ideas on firm stones.” You know proper data recording, if you deliver a message of extreme importance is very important.

He left a great message. He healed the sick, resurrected the dead and then died and brought himself back from the dead.
He kept telling the people that their illusions of who they thought they were, (meat sacks victimized by circomstance) was nonsense. He spoke of Truth and demonstrated Truth.

You could show it live on CNN, but hardly anyone that was there believed it then, and few would believe it now.

He knew he had better things to do than write a book about reality


Not sure exactly where it was, but I remember whilst listening to the Bible (somewhere in Mathew I believe) that Jesus told all of the individuals he cured not to speak of his miracles.
Joesus
He did try to let them know that miracles only appeared as miracles to those who wouldn't accept the reality of Gods power being within themselves. In that sense, anything miraculous would appear to be something that was near unbelievable, or extraordinary.
Flex
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 07:10 PM) *

He did try to let them know that miracles only appeared as miracles to those who wouldn't accept the reality of Gods power being within themselves. In that sense, anything miraculous would appear to be something that was near unbelievable, or extraordinary.


If the potential to bring one back to life is within us all, have you yourself revived anyone? Or say cured a friends sickness?
Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 05:23 PM) *

QUOTE
My first question is "Why he did not care to put on paper his ideas himself, or did not paid to someone to engrave his ideas on firm stones." You know proper data recording, if you deliver a message of extreme importance is very important.

He left a great message. He healed the sick, resurrected the dead and then died and brought himself back from the dead.
He kept telling the people that their illusions of who they thought they were, (meat sacks victimized by circomstance) was nonsense. He spoke of Truth and demonstrated Truth.

You could show it live on CNN, but hardly anyone that was there believed it then, and few would believe it now.

He knew he had better things to do than write a book about reality


First of all please do not preach please! I do not like preachers because they preach something having no idea about what they are preaching and what for they are preaching.
You think I cannot preach? You even do not imagine how well I can preach!

My question is extremely important question directed directly to Jesus himself. You cannot answer on that question instead of him (though who knows??? smile.gif wink.gif ), and besides the answer you provided "He knew he had better things to do than write a book about reality" is absolutely invalid and extremely cynical. A wise God or Profit had to care a little about consequences which may follow if his words get transferred to people in modified way, or in a way rising suspicion that those words are his own words. Up to now that peculiarity questions faith of many good people, up to now many are hesitating. And if in coming week, when they will open the grave of "apostle" Paul in Vatican, some writings get found there within the coffin, then you never know what may happen with Christianity. That is why writing BOOKS about the reality is absolutely important when you charter a new world religion.

Second, the data he transferred to people reached to us in form of writings, which were rewritten by several people for several times and differ one from another in several details, those differences and misunderstandings which rose later gave ground for very specific actions on behalf of the Churches of Christ, thus if he cared a little about the consequences, then definitely he would inscribe his ideas himself or would pay someone to inscribe his ideas e.g. on good stones.

I do not criticize Jesus personally. But I will highly appreciate if he personally do register on this forum and answer on this simple question. I guess that a person who is known among men as God and could move mountains and rise the death have to have capability to register on internet forum and answer on simple questions of such a humble man as me Enki.

I strongly recommend you to read my funny Saint Grail satirical topic which I have opened here on this forum having special purpose in mind. I guess that the topic will be interesting for you.

The true nature of Jesus Christ is still unknown, but reading the Bible you understand that he was a good guy, knew interesting things and had God's spark within, but there were ineffable things which he could not manage to express during his lifetime in a proper way because some people created problems for him and possibly he did not understood some things in proper way as they needed to be understood (otherwise he would not refer to his heavenly father with series of words while he was dying on the cross, while later when he got transformed into a Spiritual being he made several attempts to correct the situation, but unfortunately up to now he is not able to introduce proper corrections, possibly because due to some serious technical problems). We know that somehow he is related with God in a specific spiritual way, the magnitude of that relation is a matter of debate. Hope one day Jesus himself will clarify that matter online or by CNN. smile.gif
Joesus
I don't preach, and I didn't make it up.

And No I haven't raised any dead in this lifetime.
Flex
On another less serious note--Jesus was supposed to be a carpenter correct? I wish that Jesus designed some of the furniture that they put into these hotels...This is the most uncomfortable chair I have ever sat it~A holy chair would be great.

Why was Jesus not successful as a carpenter? I suspect he made terrible furniture.
Enki
QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 10:52 PM) *

I don't preach, and I didn't make it up.


Dear Joesus,

Please understand me correctly. The new Testaments describing Jesus and his approaches contain very important and very propound concepts and extremely important message to mankind. But at the same time, there are some elements which can mislead as well. Some sort of duality exists. That duality should not be discarded. Maybe the duality is a part of the battle strategy. We have to accept that the duality exists.

I think that the matter is very, very, very complicated.

The best variant is to avoid any form of battle and resolve the matter peacefully. At least I hope that we will eventually approach to the Great Peace.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 12, 2006, 10:52 PM) *

And No I haven't raised any dead in this lifetime.


Yet. smile.gif ))))))))
Lindsay
Just testing!!!!

I write the above because, earlier today, I was not able to communicate to this thread. A bug, perhaps?

Flex, may I refer you to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_News_Translation

Read the passages in John and let me know what you think.
=============================================
http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation/english.htm
Enki
Have not you paid attention at the year of publication 1966? I do not like numerology, but truly speaking, hardly good spirits would inspire a translation which had to get released in association with that year, is not it (I mean if to follow Christian aptitude of mind)?

"The popularity of the Today's English Version is frightful in light of its perverted renderings of key passages dealing with Christ's deity, the inspiration and preservation of Scripture, the blood atonement, and many other doctrines."

"Literal translations, especially the King James Version, are God's word, and all dynamic translations are evil."

PS: Hope those bugs one day will be detected after all. I am after them too.
Enki
I have noted the failure on my computer and the number 11 appearance on the screen while I was trying to post something via quoting a post in this thread.

Now we shall see how the Providence will respond on such tricks.
Lindsay
QUOTE(Enki @ Dec 13, 2006, 09:03 PM) *

I have noted the failure on my computer and the number 11 appearance on the screen while I was trying to post...

I had the same thing happen to me. One day I had a 23 appear. I am happy to know that it was not just my 'puter'. Weird!!!


code buttons
This sucks! I tried to get around it by starting a new thread under the same name but with the words "part II" next to the title so that I could post my post (which included a couple of quotes), and it still didn't work! I had the two number ones pop-up on a blank screen too!
Lindsay
QUOTE
'Enki' date='Dec 12, 2006
...My first question is "Why he did not care to put on paper his ideas himself, or did not paid to someone to engrave his ideas on firm stones."
You know proper data recording, if you deliver a message of extreme importance is very important.

...My question is (an) extremely important question directed directly to Jesus himself. You cannot answer on that question instead of him (though who knows??? smile.gif wink.gif ),
... the answer you provided: "He knew he had better things to do than write a book about reality" is absolutely invalid and extremely cynical....We know that somehow he is related with God in a specific spiritual way, the magnitude of that relation is a matter of debate.
Hope one day Jesus himself will clarify that matter online or by CNN. smile.gif
My sentiments, too. I want to talk to the source, the boss, not to a multitude of so-called "witnesses", "vicars", and people who say they have a personal God, a Heavenly Father, who hears and answers all prayers.

Rome declares: "God speaks to all the world through the Holy Father, the Pope"; The numerous "orthodoxies" claim: "No. The Pope is just the bishop of Rome. God speaks to the world through the ancient councils".

Both can't be right.

Perhaps the Mormons are right: God spoke through Joseph Smith.
Protestantism gives us a multitude of choices. Some, like Anglicanism and the UCC, are so liberal they say: God gave us perhaps three commandments: Worship ME, only; Love one another, and one wife at a time. The rest are just suggestions. Do the best you can with them. smile.gif

Of course the Muslims say: God gave his final revelation when, in the seventh century of this era, Mohammed--who, BTW, was illiterate--went into a trance and received the Koran (The Recitation) as the final revelation of Allah (The Great Power) God.

Buddhism? Basically, without any concept of there being a personal god, it is a glorified form of humanism.

Hinduism? There is no such thing as ONE Hinduism. For those with little critical understanding, there is a galaxy of gods. Educated Hindus treat religion as a cultural thing.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I AM SINCERE WHEN WRITE THE FOLLOWING
God, if you are there, and really do hear and answer our prayers; and if you want us to really understand you, there is only one way to clear up this mess.

My suggestion is: You, your mother, Mary, and your son, Jesus, make use of all the media to get YOUR TRUTH across. BTW, if you have a wife and a daughter, or two, please bring them along.

God, if you choose to remain silent, could you at least signal to us and answer the question: WHY? Meanwhile take a look at my signature.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Enki @ Dec 14, 2006, 05:03 AM) *

I have noted the failure on my computer and the number 11 appearance on the screen while I was trying to post something via quoting a post in this thread.

Now we shall see how the Providence will respond on such tricks.

Number 11 and number 12 also. I am getting quite bored with these bugs. Time for the swatter.
Rick
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 14, 2006, 08:07 AM) *
... God, if you choose to remain silent, could you at least signal to us and answer the question: WHY? ...

God chooses to remain silent because he doesn't exist. In lieu of God, you'll have to answer the questions yourself.
Joesus
QUOTE
God, if you are there, and really do hear and answer our prayers; and if you want us to really understand you, there is only one way to clear up this mess.
Jesus and Barata. Together they read the sacred books. Jesus takes exception to the Buddhist doctrine of evolution and reveals the true origin of man. Meets Vidyapati, who becomes his co-labourer.

AMONG the Buddhist priests was one who saw a lofty wisdom in the words that Jesus spoke. It was Barata Arabo. 2 Together Jesus and Barata read the Jewish Psalms and Prophets; read the Vedas, the Avesta and the wisdom of Gautama. 3 And as they read and talked about the possibilities of man, Barata said, 4 Man is the marvel of the universe. He is part of everything for he has been a living thing on every plane of life. 5 Time was when man was not; and he was bit of formless substance in the moulds of time; and then a protoplast. 6 By universal law all things tend upward to a state of perfectness. The protoplast evolved, becoming worm, then reptile, bird and beast, and then at last it reached the form of man. 7 Now, man himself is mind, and mind is here to gain perfection by experience; and mind is often manifest in fleshy form, and in the form best suited to its growth. So mind may manifest as worm, or bird, or beast, or man. 8 The time will come when everthing of life will be evolved unto the state of perfect man. 9 And after man is man in perfectness, he will evolve to higher forms of life. 10 And Jesus said, Barata Arabo, who taught you this, that mind, which is the man, may manifest in flesh of beast, or bird, or creeping thing? 11 Barata said, From times which man remembers not our priests have told us so, and so we know. 12 And Jesus said, Enlightened Arabo, are you a master mind and do not know that man knows naught by being told? 13 Man may believe what others say; but thus he never knows. If man would know, he must himself be what he knows. 14 Do you remember, Arabo, when you were ape, or bird, or worm? 15 Now, if you have no better proving of your plea than that the priests have told you so, you do not know; you simply guess. 16 Regard not, then, what any man has said; let us forget the flesh, and go with mind into the land of fleshless things; mind never does forget. 17 And backward through the ages master minds can trace themselves; and thus they know. 18 Time never was when man was not. 19 That which begins will have an end. If man was not, the time will come when he will not exist. 20 From God's own Record Book we read: The Triune God breathed forth, and seven Spirits stood before his face. (The Hebrews call these seven Spirits, Elohim.) 21 And these are they who, in their boundless power, created everything that is, or was. 22 These Spirits of the Triune God moved on the face of boundless space and seven ethers were, and every ether had its form of life. 23 These forms of life were but the thoughts of God, clothed in the substance of their ether planes. 24 (Men call these ether planes the planes of protoplast, of earth, of plant, of beast, of man, of angel and of cherubim.) 25 These planes with all their teeming thoughts of God, are never seen by eyes of man in flesh; they are composed of substance far too fine for fleshy eyes to see, and still they constitute the soul of things; 26 And with the eyes of soul all creatures see these ether planes, and all forms of life. 27 Because all forms of life on every plane are thoughts of God, all creatures think, and every creature is possessed of will, and, in its measure, has the power to choose, 28 And in their native planes all creatures are supplied with nourishment from the ethers of their planes. 29 And so it was with every living thing until the will became a sluggish will, and then the ethers of the protoplast, the earth, the plant, the beast, the man, began to vibrate very slow. 30 The ethers all became more dense, and all the creatures of these planes were clothed with coarser garbs, the garbs of flesh, which men can see; and thus this coarser manifest, which men call physical, appeared. 31 And this is what is called the fall of man; but man fell not alone for protoplast, and earth, and plant and beast were all included in the fall. 32 The angels and the cherubim fell not; their wills were ever strong, and so they held the ethers of their planes in harmony with God. 33 Now, when the ethers reached the rate of atmosphere, and all the creatures of these planes must get their food from atmosphere, the conflict came; and that which the finite man ahs called, survival of the best, became the law, 34 The stronger ate the bodies of the weaker manifests; and here is where the carnal law of evolution had its rise. 35 And now man, in his utter shamelessness, strikes down and eats the beasts, the beast consumes the plant, the plant thrives on the earth, the earth absorbs the protoplast. 36 In yonder kingdom of the soul this carnal evolution is not known, and the great work of master minds is to restore the heritage of man, to bring him back to his estate that he has lost, when he again will live upon the ethers of his native plane. 37 The thoughts of God change not; the manifests of life on every plane unfold into perfection of their kind; and as the thoughts of God can never die, there is no death to any being of the seven ethers of the seven Spirits of the Triune God. 38 And so an earth is never plant; a beast, or bird, or creeping thing is never man, and man is not, and cannot be, a beast, or bird, or creeping thing. 39 The time will come when all these seven manifests will be absorbed, and man, and beast, and plant, and earth and protoplast will be redeemed.

Jesus attends a feast in Persepolis. Speaks to the people, reviewing the magian philosophy. Explains the origin of evil. Spends the night in prayer.

A FEAST in honour of the magian God was being held, and many men were gathered in Persepolis. 2 And on the great day of the feast the ruling magian master said, Within these sacred walls is liberty; whoever wills to speak may speak. 3 And Jesus standing in the midst of all the people, said, My brothers, sisters, children of our Father-God: 4 Most blest are you among the sons of men today, because you have such just conceptions of the Holy One and man. 5 Your purity in worship and in life is pleasing unto God; and to your master, Zarathustra, praise is due. 6 Well say you all, There is one God from whose great being there came forth the seven Spirits that created heaven and earth; and manifest unto the sons of men are these great Spirits in the sun, and moon, and stars. 7 But in your sacred books we read that two among these seven are of superior strength; that one of these created all the good; the other one created all that evil is. 8 I pray you, honoured masters, tell me how that evil can be born of that which is all good? 9 A magus rose and said, If you will answer me, your problem will be solved. 10 We all do recognize the fact that evil is. Whatever is, must have a cause, If God, the One, made not this evil, then, where is the God who did? 11 And Jesus said, Whatever God, the One, has made is good, and like the great first Cause, the seven Spirits all are good, and everthing that comes from their creative hands is good. 12 Now, all created things have colours, tones and forms their own; but certain tones, though good and pure themselves, when mixed, produce inharmonies, discordant tones. 13 And certain things, though good and pure, when mixed, produce discordant things, yea, poisonous things, that men call evil things. 14 So evil is the inharmonious blending of the colours, tones, or forms of good. 15 Now, man is not all-wise, and yet has will his own. He has the power, and he uses it, to mix God's good things in a multitude of ways, and every day he makes discordant sounds, and evil things. 16 And every tone and form, be it of good, or ill, becomes a living thing, a demon, sprite, or spirit of a good or vicious kind. 17 Man makes his evil thus; and then becomes afraid of him and flees; his devil is emboldened, follows him away and casts him into torturing fires. 18 The devil and the burning fires are both the works of man, and none can put the fires out and dissipate the evil one, but man who made them both. 19 Then Jesus stood aside, and not a magus answered him. 20 And he departed from the throng and went into a secret place to pray.
Lindsay
QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 14, 2006, 10:07 AM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 14, 2006, 08:07 AM) *
... God, if you choose to remain silent, could you at least signal to us and answer the question: WHY? ...

God chooses to remain silent because he doesn't exist. In lieu of God, you'll have to answer the questions yourself.
Rick, once again, you and I are in agreement.
Lindsay
I have a granddaughter who--if you don't mind me bragging--is, in my humble opinion, quite bright and with whom I--and her grandmother--am in great rapport. She is the daughter of my son.

Her mother is a Persian, a Sufi-Muslim. Therefore, she has a great mixtures of genes. When she was twelve she told me: I think I am an atheist. Since then, we have talked, quite openly, about many things.

Recently--she is now 15 and going on 21, and in grade 10-- I said to my granddaughterr: If I told you that, IMO, we live in a vast computer-like universe which is governed by dynamic and unconscious powers beyond our present understanding, which I call, ALL that IS, what would you say?

She responded: That makes sense to me.

Then I said: What would you say if I said: It is also my opinion that, as conscious beings, we have this wonderful ability to connect with ALL that IS, which I call GØD, and thus solve all kinds of problems.

Again, she responded: That makes sense to me.

We will continue to dialogue.

Rick
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 14, 2006, 01:34 PM) *
Rick, once again, you and I are in agreement.

Another name for answering questions for one's self is humanism. To say "secular humanism" might be redundant.

The evangelicals claim that secular humanism is the great enemy of their faith. How right they are.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 14, 2006, 09:34 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 14, 2006, 10:07 AM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 14, 2006, 08:07 AM) *
... God, if you choose to remain silent, could you at least signal to us and answer the question: WHY? ...

God chooses to remain silent because he doesn't exist. In lieu of God, you'll have to answer the questions yourself.
Rick, once again, you and I are in agreement.
Will you contact the congregation you have mislead for decades and explain this to them?
Lindsay
HH, your signature says it all: "I (HH) have nothing to say, but I'll say it anyway." smile.gif

In your profile you indicate that you have zero interests. What does this mean? ZERO interests. Very amusing.
======================================================
BTW, HH, in my last congregation, which I was with--with their voted-on consent (and I held several votes to give the opportunity to dump me)--for nearly thirty years, I was privileged to serve a congregation which was made up of, mostly, thinkers. Very few were fundamentalists.

At all times, I gave my congregation a thinking-kind of approach to theology. I told them, constantly: Think for yourselves. Most said: We love that you encourage us to think for ourselves.

Keep in mind: Members of the UCC are not expected to be sheeple.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 15, 2006, 12:05 AM) *

HH, your signature says it all: "I (HH) have nothing to say, but I'll say it anyway." smile.gif

In your profile you indicate that you have zero interests. What does this mean? ZERO interests. Very amusing.
======================================================
BTW, HH, in my last congregation, which I was with--with their voted-on consent (and I held several votes to give the opportunity to dump me)--for nearly thirty years, I was privileged to serve a congregation which was made up of, mostly, thinkers. Very few were fundamentalists.

At all times, I gave my congregation a thinking-kind of approach to theology. I told them, constantly: Think for yourselves. Most said: We love that you encourage us to think for ourselves.

Keep in mind: Members of the UCC are not expected to be sheeple.
So you have not mislead your congregation for decades? How is it then, for I am confused, did you preach that there was a god, or that there was not a god? I appreciate that you might have changed your mind, but that does not detract from my original question, "Will you contact the congregation you have mislead for decades and explain this to them?" Yes, or no? That is, tell them that you believe there is no god.
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 15, 2006, 12:05 AM) *

HH, your signature says it all: "I (HH) have nothing to say, but I'll say it anyway." smile.gif
I just love your insight (not), but I also love the fact that even YOU can be drawn. My signature is sarcasm and reflects what most comment in the world is - meaningless. In your background you had nothing to say, said it anyway but now realise it was nothing. I acknowledge your late insight and give you great credit for having the courage to state it here. Will you state it to your congregation (you know I mean past, but include the present, just in case there might be believers in god there too)? Or are you unsure of your present position?
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 15, 2006, 12:05 AM) *

In your profile you indicate that you have zero interests. What does this mean? ZERO interests. Very amusing.
Absence of interests does not equal zero interests. It just mean they are my business, not yours. You seem to constantly raise this issue. Should we exclude from discussion all members of BM who do not have extended details in their shown profiles? You do not control me or them, as much as it would seem you would like to. Or are you afraid to think on your feet? Many are. It's often to do with a power position. Rather than trying to give the impression as humane, I'd rather be seen to be human. There you are, I've given something away.
Lindsay
Okay, HH, let's have some fun in all this. This is the kind of debate which I enjoy: You ask me:
QUOTE
So you have not mislead your congregation for decades?
At least you got that right. Then you ask:
QUOTE
How is it then, for I am confused, did you preach that there was a god, or that there was not a god?
I preached to my congregation: THINK about what it is you truly believe, theologically. Think about "God". If you are comfortable with the old images, so be it. If this helps you to love one another, wonderful. Deeds are more important than creeds. If you are not comfortable with the old doctrines, this is your opportunity to expand your thinking.

Then you, HH, add:
QUOTE
I appreciate that you might have changed your mind, but that does not detract from my original question, "Will you contact the congregation you have mislead, for decades...
Come now. This is like me asking you: When did you stop beating your wife?
This is not a question; it is an accusation!!!! Keep in mind: Most of my old congregation are in the hands of another minister, or dead.
To your comment:
QUOTE
...and explain this to them?" Yes, or no? That is, tell them that you believe there is no god.
I respond: I told my congregation: I am not here to tell you what to believe about God. You are free to form your own opinions. I am here to ask you to think; I am here to bring you a new way of looking at theology--one without dogma.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 15, 2006, 02:37 AM) *

Okay, HH, let's have some fun in all this. This is the kind of debate which I enjoy: You ask me:
QUOTE
So you have not mislead your congregation for decades?
At least you got that right. Then you ask:
QUOTE
How is it then, for I am confused, did you preach that there was a god, or that there was not a god?
I preached to my congregation: THINK about what it is you truly believe, theologically. Think about "God". If you are comfortable with the old images, so be it. If this helps you to love one another, wonderful. Deeds are more important than creeds. If you are not comfortable with the old doctrines, this is your opportunity to expand your thinking.

Then you, HH, add:
QUOTE
I appreciate that you might have changed your mind, but that does not detract from my original question, "Will you contact the congregation you have mislead, for decades...
Come now. This is like me asking you: When did you stop beating your wife?
This is not a question; it is an accusation!!!! Keep in mind: Most of my old congregation are in the hands of another minister, or dead.
To your comment:
QUOTE
...and explain this to them?" Yes, or no? That is, tell them that you believe there is no god.
I respond: I told my congregation: I am not here to tell you what to believe about God. You are free to form your own opinions. I am here to ask you to think; I am here to bring you a new way of looking at theology--one without dogma.

Hey, these are good replies. Are you also a politician? That yes or no question wasn't quite answered. The answer is either yes or no. You see, if you encourage your congregation to independently decide whether they believe in god or not, they might be confused if you don't own up at some point. I mean, why wouldn't you? Anyway, the yes or no question was to do with your belief, not the congregation. Or does your profile contain some ZEROS? wink.gif wub.gif
Lindsay
HH, you ask me: "Or are you afraid to think on your feet?"

As long as you give me the right to be wrong, I have no problem, okay? smile.gif

You write, "...Rather than trying to give the impression as humane, I'd rather be seen to be human. There you are, I've given something away."

If you mean that you are a humanist, as long as you are a moral, ethical and loving humanist, I have no problem. For me, deeds come before creeds, any day. Or at least congruently with them. Creeds minus deeds=hypocrisy. And the traditional churches are full of hypocrites.
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 15, 2006, 03:06 AM) *

HH, you ask me: "Or are you afraid to think on your feet?"

As long as you give me the right to be wrong, I have no problem, okay? smile.gif

You write, "...Rather than trying to give the impression as humane, I'd rather be seen to be human. There you are, I've given something away."

If you mean that you are a humanist, as long as you are a moral, ethical and loving humanist, I have no problem. For me, deeds come before creeds, any day. Or at least congruently with them. Creeds minus deeds=hypocrisy. And the traditional churches are full of hypocrites.

Lindsay, I tried your way, and changed my poem to include gød. The original is on the Poetry Board. Does it sound any better?

White Flakes

White flakes of heaven
fall from moving skies
as faith forgiven
hope’s velvet guise
The melt surrenders
mortal truth
transition splendours
vast azimuth
Adsorbing of such gift divine
for nurture as to child
encompass in the grand design
more gødly life beguiled

©2006 Hey Hey
Lindsay
Sounds goødly, to me. smile.gif
Hey Hey
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 15, 2006, 04:26 AM) *

Sounds goødly, to me. smile.gif

My Christmas poem this year then, dedicated to you. Best wishes for the season.
Lindsay
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Dec 14, 2006, 07:06 PM) *

... Creeds minus deeds=hypocrisy. And the traditional churches are full of hypocrites.
BTW, now and then, as a minister, I met people who told me that they had given up going to church: "Too many hypocrites..." they said.

If I had built up enough rapport with them to joke a little bit I usually responded: "Then I give you my special invitation; there is always room for one more..." smile.gif

But seriously, who among us can claim sainthood? Who can truly say: From my youth up, I have kept all the commandments, including the golden rule. I have never been a hypocrite. In Romans, Paul points out that we are "called to be saints" but this does not mean that we are.


CHURCHES, SYAGOGUES, TEMPLES AS HOSPITALS
Furthermore, I like to look on places where people gather with others to develop themselves, spiritually, including churches, synagogues, and temples, as hospitals for sick minds and spirits seeking to find total health, including physical health. This is why Jesus told his disciples to preach, teach and heal. Is it just an accident that the first schools, including the great universities, were started by spiritual leaders? The same is true for hospitals?

There is a growing body of scientific evidence that people who take the time to get their minds and spirits in harmony with one another, and with the universe as a whole--call it what you will--are healthier mentally and physically. IMO, a healthy religion in one which promotes total health, including a healthy ecology.
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