Franziska, now that you have quoted what I presume are some of your favourite Bible verses, tell us what they mean to you. Do you take a poetic, or a literal interest in them.

I RESPECT THE BIBLE AS LITERATURE
My very modern, easy-to-read GOOD NEWS version of the Bible tells me that the book of Daniel (God is my judge) was written during a time when the Jews were suffering greatly because of persecution and oppression--sounds like the 1930's and 1940's.
The stories are set in the time of the Babylonian and Persian Empires--in what we today call the MIddle East.
http://images.google.ca/images?q=Babylonia...um|large|xlarge
(600--500 BCE--before the common era.) In those days, there were no fixed borders like we have today. Various war lords from Egypt, Persia, Assyria--later Athens and Rome--including people like the Pharaohs (meaning leader of the house, the family, king), Moses, David, Solomon, Darius, Xerxes, Alexander, the Roman emperors, etc., made the rules.

Interestingly, Dan. 2:4--7:28 was, originally, written in Aramaic, not Hebrew. Some of the historical references in Daniel are correct, others are wrong. For example, Darius did not precede Cyrus, but followed him 20 years later. Belshazzar was not the son of Nebuchadnezzar but of Nabonidus (555-538 BCE). Darius, instead of being the son of Aahasuerus, or of Xerxes (9:1), was the father of Xerxes.

My point: I look on the book of Daniel as an interesting story, not the final word of an infallible author--human or otherwise. I agree with those who refer to the books of Daniel and Revelation as: The aresenal of millennialism--a forge where the weapons of religious controversy about the last days, the end of time, the apocalypse have been shaped. I trust that, with a benevolent spirit and attitude, we can agree to disagree, agreeably
================================
http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/apoc.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

Your quotes from the New Testament contain a lot of good and common sense.

My interest specifically in growing closer to God started 2004, then I have been studying online and with someone else and try to join anything that seems to bring me closer to what I seek, which I could use to build on myself, ..... whatever expands my horizon, gives me different perspectives of the World since it is so Multifaceted. Generally I like to talk about, think about and at least try to know about "God and the World" (forgive me if I put it so simple) and I do consider the possibility that the Bible is a key to truth.
I have targeted areas like Gods purpose, the plan for the future, the prophecies, the teachings, the history. I still plan to go thoroughly through the book of Daniel, about the metaphors, the prophecies.
I still have a very long way to go, but I do feel myself growing in spirituality, deem it healthy and enjoy being a Christian.

Thanks for your reply, warm wishes, *F

+Franziska+, your response goes to show that when we agree to discuss matters, objectively, that is, leaving out the personal attacks, many differences can be enriching ones.

COULD THIS BE THE SECRET TO SOLVING, NOT PERPETUATING, PROBLEMS?
Could this be the secret to finding out the best way of dealing with so-called enemies, including terrorists, in time of war. Or is this too simple a solution for our "great" political leaders, and media moguls, to understand?

Just maybe, there IS a reason as to why some people are willing to kill themselves and others. Just maybe, getting to the roots--and there is more than one root--of why enemies, including terrorists (who obviously have no fear of capital punishment) do what they do--could make a difference.

I CONFESS
BTW, as a youth, I was one who was raised in poverty, and I saw many deaths, including the deaths of those close to me, caused by poverty. I also remember, on more than one accasion, being angry enough to end it all.

In addition to this, the thought also came to me: Wouldn't it be nice if I could take some of the "criminals"--the ones who I felt who were responsible for keeping the poor in their place--with me?

You will know that even with smooth communication there are still alot of hurdles to take.
Where one believes in the right(ousness) of one thing and another in another, it is not easy to meet compromise and a good compromise does not mean satisfaction or solution.

--
(Speaking does not mean hearing
hearing does not mean understanding
understanding does not mean agreement
agreement does not mean application
application does not mean maintaining
K. Lorenz)



As for the splitting of beliefs, as for what only goes on in the mind, I agree with the "live and let live" philosophy, so leaving someone with his opinion and leaving someone with his religion if it is his firm point of view, still of course giving room for conversation and the exchange of insights.
As for what happens beyond the mind through the cause of belief or experience, I can empathize with the will to desperately by all means change what brings (also personal) frustration. I think the turning of your back on the world, or to anyone will not be alien to anybody.

I believe one can always pursue to know, say, do, apply what is right or closest to truth and untertake responsibility but in the end God will know and do.

+Franziska+
But will "He" get a URL, come on line and keep us informed?

I do leave the possibility open if God also governs the net, but I consider the possibility of this:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Romans 8:120

(As for the sex thing, I didn't mean to limit Gods existence to a distinction.)

+Franziska+ This is why I prefer to use the symbol 'GØD'---Orthodox Jews use G-d--it avoids the gender-problem.

You quote: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Romans 8:120

One Greek scholar I read said that the Greek verb is passive. Therefore, the better translation is: "In all things God--I prefer GØD--works together for good..."

To me this means that whether or not we get good results depends a lot on our input.

For me, creating GØD in any kind of personal image, even mentally, is idolatry, and, therefore, false. In my opinion--and I always respect yours and that of others-- the language about GØD and religion in virtually all our readings, poetry, and prayers reeks of idolatry.

Long ago, I stopped telling people: If you will read your Bible, regularly, come to church, and say your prayers to God, regularly, your heavenly father will do this, that and the other thing for you.

Why did I stop?

Because I observed that the failure rate was too high. And this is why most people have lost their faith in what the religions teach, do not go, regularly, and do not say their prayers, regularly.

BTW, does a great inventor come up with new products, that make life better for us, by asking the God of science? No. Of course there is a role for inspiration, but we need to ask: Where does it come from? A God, or gods, up there?

Thomas Edison--who I believe allowed for the spiritual component in all humanity--was once asked about this. He responded: "It is ten per cent inspiration, and ninety per cent perspiration." That is, he cogitated, thought, he observed, he experimented, failed, experimented again, and again, and again.......It is said that he did over 900 experiments before he came up with the right filament for his first electric light.

Look at the millions of men, women and children who died, and still dying, brutally--consider The Holocaust of WW 2--in natural disasters and wars for whom thousands of prayer have been said. Many have suffered such deaths even while attending churches, synagogues and temples. How many holocausts do we have to suffer before we catch on that something is wrong with the way we have been "worshipping God" or the gods?

In my opinion, GØD is as different from the God, and the gods of most religions, as.... Well, if I am not offending your beliefs too much, I will rant some more, later.

no do continue, do you find yourself ranting? where did you begin to rant?

The guide line to pray, go to church and read the bible will not satisfy most people. It takes more than conversations, attendancies and reading to find what people seek for. It takes alot of understanding, will to understand, strength, discipline, motivation and the will to follow a certain way of life.

What you wrote about also reminds me of the unacceptance of creating images for yourself. And I agree with you here, I do see many people spending so much time and effort on the correct way of praying or woship. I also asked myself why people like to stand in front of stones in graveyards, I mean those who have died are not down there, we. they're either in you or no where. unless we take on the circle of life view. Anyway getting back to worship.. What colour, what decoration, what rituals, how to place what where... and I ask myself what has this to do with living a God pleasing life or.. a christian/ social good life, not meaning to look down on this. I hope you don't cringe if I just write God, I do enjoy the broad spectrum of that view which I mean to share. I will want to read more on that.

I enjoy the quote you have given from Thomas Edison empathize with it.

Thanks for your openminded attitude and for asking me to, "...continue, do you find yourself ranting? Where did you begin to rant?"

A couple of years ago, I was a member of a chatroom run by the Christian Heritage Centre. Here is the URL
http://www.christianheritagecenter.com
As soon as I began to raise critical and analytical questions I was told that my opinions, which I did not present in any kind of a dogmatic way, were no longer welcome

HERE IS THEIR POSITION--How close is your opinion to their obvious dogma?
========================================================
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The Nicene Creed
A.D. 325

"We believe in one God the Father Almighty... one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God... who... for our salvation, came down from heaven... was crucified also for us... was buried, and the third day he rose again... and ascended into heaven... we believe in the Holy Spirit..."

NB


Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 14:6

The Christian Heritage Center 30,000 books & videos testifying that Jesus Christ is the only way!

The chatroom is easy to join, but be prepared for the following:
http://www.christianheritageworks.com/cgi-...;num=1152534845

Trying to convince yourself that there is little or no ego involved generally can only be supported by those things which you identify yourself as being or not being.

Being Free from judgment
Being open minded
Being unattached to any symbolic representation to God within the terms of relative beliefs or labels of limitation etc.etc.

Making comparisons and creating systems of measure bind the mind to its best image of being enlightened.
These images are not so much threatened by the outside but by the minds constant self judgment of itself in the comparisons it makes of itself and others beliefs.
Healing humanity begins with the healing of the self, or the recognition of separation and ascending it.
Humanity is a reflection of the mind. What you see is what lives inside of you. Any attempt to remove yourself from yourself always exacerbates the symptoms of separation and judgment.

When one finds the path of freedom there is no self image and no comparisons.
True compassion lends itself to being in the right place at the right time naturally, without any effort, and without seeking to find discord and suffering.


"I and my Father are one" Not just a metaphor but a statement of Truth. There being only One consciousness, One eternal mind. The fragmented points of reference that are individual are those of separation.
"I am the way" The way being not to follow the images of relative truths but the Truth beyond the images.
Condemnation of Dogma is Dogmatic. The perpetuation of ones own separation and the expounding judgments that thrive within the ego and its points of reference can be taken within and surrendered, or taken outward and cast in any direction. One of these actions leads to freedom and the other reflects the minds outward focus on duality and separation.

"Judgment is mine sayeth the lord"
Since God does not judge through separation, the meaning behind the phrase is a clue to something more than separation through self created systems of measure.

Joesus:
As a unitheist, I agree: there is only ONE consciousness--consciousness itself. However, I am at a loss to know what is meant by: "The fragmented points of reference that are individual are those of separation."
I feel the same way about:
I do not condemn dogma; I simply believe that I can live without it, my own included.
In my opinion, the following sounds, to me, like a dogmatic statement, which I do not quite understand:

Do you have insomnia? Try reading the following.
http://www.christianheritageworks.com/arminianfaith.htm
Interestingly, even the "liberal-thinking" Jacob Arminius refered to God as "He".
If the above fails, for your second threatment try reading about:
[Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). He was a Dutch Reformed theologian and professor of theology at the University of Leiden.

He is most noted for his departure from the Reformed theology of the Belgic Confession resulting in what became the Calvinist-Arminian controversy addressed at the Synod of Dort (1618-1619).]
http://www.christianheritageworks.com/armpredest.html

If reading the above does not cure your insomnia, you are a hopless case. Sorry about that!!

If you don't understand it then why does it sound like dogmatism?
Could it be that you let your thoughts lead you to separation from the one out of habit rather than toward union from the habit and experience of union?

The world is a reflection of the subjective belief.

As a unitheist do you just fake it till you make it?

You can call yourself anything that you like. The only one it really matters to is you. Positive reinforcement only appears to counter the opposing thought, when in reality it only reinforces it as long as the mind experiences both as separate and real.

Joesus Which is this, J, a rhetorical question? Or a dogmatic statement?

I understand if you don't have an answer to the question.

So do I!

Well when you finally understand what I said, you will have made room for more.
Maybe the rhetorical and dogmatic impressions that follow your lack of understanding can be expanded into something much more enlightening, when conscious thought processes are used instead of lending yourself to the history of your impressions and opinions.

[quote name='Lindsay' date='Nov 20, 2006, 07:56 PM' post='71925']
[quote name='Joesus' post='71924' date='Nov 20, 2006, 07:41 PM']
[quote name='Lindsay' post='71917' date='Nov 21, 2006, 12:56 AM']
Joesus[quote]As a unitheist do you just fake it till you make it?[/quote] Which is this, J, a rhetorical question? Or a dogmatic statement?
[/quote]
I understand if you don't have an answer to the question.
[/quote] So do I! That is, I understand that no one should be expected to have an answer to a rhetorical question.

Only real and objective questions deserve objective answers, which I will gladly give.

Blah!

Hah!!!!!

when i open my eyes i must sigh for what i see is contrary to my religion, that music is a higher revelation than all music and philosphy