It seems like that is a matter of personal opinion. If this collective consciousness is real, then why am I able to manipulate people? Individuality, personal history, personality, and ego ARE what we are. By understanding someones personality I am able to manipulate them. If this universal consciousness existed then I would not have the ability to do so.

evidently you have never experienced consciousness without these superfluous forms. Consciousness is universal and the self-centered experience a myopic delusion. This is not opinion but is based on direct experience.

Can you honestly say that you have experience it? If so you should know my plans for the future, plans which I let no one know, because once they are out they become expectations. Who is to say that your perception of consciousness is superior to mine--saying that the self-centered experience is a myopic delusion is in itself an egocentric statement. If I have not experience universal consciousness it clearly isn't universal.

I can say it with full certainty. As for knowing your plans for the future, it does not follow from the experience of pure consciousness, nor should it since these forms are anchored to the individual's body even if they do not constitute the identity expressed in the individual, which is not confined to the individual.

Each of us is the expression of a universal consciousness, each of us is the universe conscious of itself. Why we are not conscious of other people's minds is because these minds are forms anchored to particular bodies. But the pure consciousness, that is the same in each of us. It is the same identity in all, the same I of consciousness, finding itself in different bodies and hence believing it is unique. If you experience yourself without your body, memories, and external world construct, then you will realize that 'you' still exist and are not identical to any of these forms, that 'you' are universal consciousness. That is your true identity.

When this realization is made, then the next step is an interesting one that merits its own separate thread.

A body is just a body, a mind a mind, but a thought is something intangible. A thought is not governed by natural law. Ones character has nothing to do with the tangible world nor the powers of the universe. For all I know everything tangible could be a faset of my own imagination. You yourself could be nothing more than a product of my mind. If you are unable to tap into my consciousness then a universal consciousness in an impossability.

The ego gets defensive when its existence is threatened, and yet your ego must die before you come to the realization.

What I am saying is that our identities are the same, but you believe otherwise because of your memories, being anchored to your body, and other personal effects. But these are mere accessories for the universal consciousness that is the same in each. It's fine if you believe in your individuality; the majority of people do.

My ego is a product of my own cognition. When I die I will no longer be cognitive, and then maybe I will be able to join your universal consciousness; however, as long as I have the ability to think, I will have an ego

If you truely have no ego then you should give up all of your earthly posessions for the benifit of society. But as long as you feel your ego is more deserving than the collective consciousness I suggest you retain your wealth while others on the earth suffer.

The universal consciousness is always present. In your own mind, it's in the background, whereas your ego is in the foreground. Look in the background.

You don't need an ego to think. The ego is a useful construct in everyday interactions since it defines artificial boundaries and anchors, but it's an illusion nonetheless

I never said I didn't have an ego, only that I have experienced consciousness without ego, memories, external world constructs, and without being anchored to a body, and know that my identity is something other than these "personal" ornaments.

As for giving up my earthly possessions, that is a common suggestion to "other-worldly" individuals, presumably to test their sincerity. I believe we are the universe becoming more conscious of itself. As such, it is my responsibility to hasten this increase in consciousness. To give away my earthly possessions would be detrimental to my responsibility. Hence, I retain earthly possessions insofar as they aid towards increasing the universe's consciousness of itself and of its true nature.

clearly your ego is giving you the false perception that you are right~ Since my ego is clearly still alive and well, I am going to go spend my money un-neccessarily on Taco Bell to benifit no one but myself (and big business). Feel free to give away your posessions for the benifit of society, since you have no sense of self, and thus no need to have tangible expression of your accomplishments.

the irony.

Make of it what you will.

I had a great time debating~ I actually have experienced a collective consciousness I just happened to be on shrooms at the time~

I have already responded to this above. Your suggestion misses the mark.

As I said before I actually have experienced a sense of a collective consciousness; however, to accept the idea unconditionaly seems to me as foolish as accepting any religion. I honestly hope I never absulutely figure things out~ then what would I have to do with my life?

I'm not talking about collective consciousness in the sense of the Borg. I'm talking about our identity being something other than our memories, ego, sense of body, and external world construct, since if you remove all of them, your sense of identity still remains. This is not foolish acceptance of an idea, but is raw experience.

you would realize a higher responsibility and purpose in life, and act on it

What exactly would this higher purpose be? "service to other is the price we pay for living" my purpose is to better the world, I can't think of anything more nobel than that (as of right now at least). In my time between tours, I volunteer at CAR teaching disabled kids how to swim--I do not see why I could possibly need any higher purpose than helping a fellow man.

the trend is that the universe is becoming more conscious of itself. The myriad manifestations of consciousness belie a single universal consciousness becoming increasing aware of itself. The universe is a puzzle, and this puzzle is seeking to comprehend itself in terms of itself. The universe is reflected back on itself, the snake biting its tail, Gods within Gods, worlds within worlds... they are all forms of ourselves and of the universe. The universe seeks to understand itself, is awakening to itself and its powers. We are each the universe conscious of itself. The goal, the purpose, is quite clear. Make of it what you will.

What kind of a greater purpose is that? Make of it what you will~ Every kid in highschool holds true to that...

at one level, it simply involves increasing your awareness. Looking over the history of your life, you may be struck by how much more aware you are now than a few years ago, and certainly much more so than when you were a kid.

At another level, it involves following the dictum, know thy self.

awareness of what?

of everything around you and within you. Part of this means awareness of what's going on in the world and how people operate and their social institutions.

Awareness of where this world is going towards, what lies in the future, and the reasons and motives taking us there.

There are many levels of self-organization; it's its own large field of study. It operates everywhere, particularly in the human sphere.

ok so sociology (aka common sense)? And I am absolutely aware of everything within myself.

Not just what you read in books since these are simplifications of complicated structures. But to get out there in the world and participate in and understand these structures, and try to understand them within the context of other structures, regularities, and patterns.

You are aware of a tiny fraction of what's going on inside your head. Your subconscious processes present to consciousness only a fraction. Most of what goes on inside our heads is unconscious, below the radar of consciousness. There are other things that are on the fringe, that are subtle, that can be focused on and made stronger.

There is something pervasive in the background of your mind, that is very subtle. When you try to focus on it, it moves away to the periphery, to the background. Try to bring it closer to the foreground of consciousness, or at any rate focus your attention covertly on it.

ok well in any given day I talk to roughly 500 people. I have a pretty good idea of how people opperate. How does the collective consciousness give any purpose to life--it seems like it is defined by living in and of itself. For me the purpose of life is to ensure an afterlife (your memory and accomplishments will live on).

I'm saying, compare your awareness now to many years in the past. Are they the same?

Quantity of people you come in contact with is not such a good measure. I was thinking more along the lines of understanding how things actually get done in the world. This understanding comes from witnessing and participating. When you understand how things get done, it empowers you to effect more of a change.

obviously not~ with each new day I have slightly different experiences. My awareness will never be the same, but that is nature and common sense, not the answer to how we should live, or why.

Makes good sense to me.

and you believe your identity just magically popped into your body at a specific time and place (in vast seas of time and space) and will magically disappear when your body dies? Do that really make any sense?

Even if you have never had the experience of no ego, sense of body, memories, and external world constructs, then appealing to reason, it should be convincing that the arbitrary association of your identity with your body in a particular time and place doesn't make any sense.

I believe my identity is a collection of all of my experiences, and how I have dealt with them. And yes I believe when I die my identity will disappear and all that will remain of me will be my accomplishments. I will no longer be cognititve. As far as I am concerned the universe began when I was born and will end for me when I die.

ill be back in 10-- there is a taco bell right next to our hotel. sry to keep u up

so you equate identity with a set of memories? And so the person who has complete amnesia and is unable to form new memories has no identity? Such people do in fact have a sense of identity, but since it is not associated with a set of memories, it means identity is not a set of memories.

What consciousness focuses on, it identifies with. Think about focusing your attention on a flame so that it fills your consciousness and you 'become' the flame. It's no different. We focus on our memories, our egos, our bodies that we appear anchored to, and falsely identify with them. But these things do not constitute our true identity.


I have no idea what all of this has to do with Mormons, but I enjoyed the exchange.

As did I, but I am too drunk to continue the exchange You have a good night~

Illuminating joke, rymer. That is, if you are talking about blind faith, but is all faith necessarily blind?
I like to think of faith in the same way I think of a scientist having a theory. For example, there was a time when, using their common sense (not always trustworthy) and reason, even very bright people reasoned and believed that the earth was flat and that the Sun rose in the east and set in the west. Have you heard of:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/GreekScience/...ristarchus.html
It is said the Aristarchus was judged insane for his "beliefs" his "theory".

Sure, beliefs, theories or "faiths" can be wrong. But I believe it is doubly wrong to have no faith at all. One who is never wrong is probably one who has never attempted anything.

Why is it so wrong to NOT have faith~ it is just a personal choice. Whatever works for the individual is alright with me.

someday, people might wake up the possibility that this IS all real. what a disappointment that would be!

Are you saying that you are a total rationalist, Flex?

Without offering any judgment I will ask: If so, has it ever ocurred to you that you have a total faith in rationalism?

That is the thing~ I have absolutely no faith. I do not place faith in the divine, I do not place faith in rationalism. I know absolutely nothing for sure, and thus I have absolutely no faith. Kinda sad...

Certainty? Surety? Flex, having faith is not about being certain, or sure. When I say, "I have faith..." I am not saying, "I am certain and sure..." The future, except for death and taxes (as the old saw goes), is always an uncertainty, for all of us.

However, I always find that it is valuable for me to begin with wonder. Then I move on to with a sense of hope that certain things are possible and probable. That is, I take action on basis of what I feel could be the right thing to do. This is the attitude with which I began my education, my marriage and my family life. Looking back over seventy years I am thankful that things have worked out quite well.


BTW, here is what I say to myself, including the divine power with which I feel connected, every time I stop to meditate, especially at the beginning and end of each day: Over the next day or so, wouldn't it be nice if I met the people I need and the people who need me? Wouldn't it be nice if I were led to do the things which need to be done and gott real enjoyment in the doing of them?

I guess I just love my life too much right now to have things like hope. I don't have hope, I have determination. I know that if I try my ass off chances are I will succeed, I don't have to hope things will work out alright--I will make them alright. The only problem with life I have, is death. and I find it hard to be hopeful of anything reguarding that subject.

Do you include "intention" as part of your "determination"?
You mean that you "believe" and "hope" you will , Right?

Indeed it is a problem! for all of us.BTW, are you referring to death in general? Or your personal death, in particular? Or both? I know I do not need to remind you: Death is no respecter of age.

Keep in mind that the main focus of all good religion, including Mormonism, is what to do about the fact that we are alive. The fact of life is problematic, especially for those of us who are conscious that we ARE alive. Along with the philosophers and scientists, theologians, including artists--many of whom are philosophers and scientists--ask questions like:
1. What is life? Who, or what, is the source of life?
2. What about evolution, creation and/or emanation?
3. Now that we have it, what can we, and ought we, do about it?
4. Is death an enemy? Or a friend?
5. What happens after the death of the body? Most religions believe that there is no death; that both evil people and good people will survive the death of the body, but that life after death will be heaven for those who choose the good, and hell for those who choose the evil. There is no limit to the questions one could ask about all this.

Keep in mind: Here, I am talking about what religions in general believe. To get a more precise answer we need to ask each religion: What is your doctrine of life and death, and the life everlasting? We could even pose this question to all reading this post. How about beginning with you?

If you think we need a separate thread to discuss this, start one. If you are interested, perhaps you and I could put both our names on title of the thread: QUESTION RAISED by youth and age about life and death.

I like the idea of the thread~ It may be essential to discuss the processes various religions have undergone. The Christian idea of hell for example has been shaped in a large part by poets, not prophets (Milton--Paridise Lost, Dante--The Inferno). As far as my beliefs go, I can say that I am more so influenced by poet, than prophet. Just today, I read, The Alchemist, and it seems like the entire work is based around a philosophy very similar to my own. I also find that William Blake holds value in many of my same fundamental beliefs. Okay so I guess I wasn't influenced by these people, seeing as I have held my beliefs for years, but only recently read their works, but the idea of the power of imagination and determination is one that speaks greatly to me.

Lets initiate this new thread before we go into any real detail~