How can so many people be so ...limited... to actually think for a split second that west is "civilised" and that the rest of the world should look after it's way of life?

What do we have? lol...we have extortive capitalism, which only differs from dark ages in a fact that in dark ages winner was the strongest while now it is the most "clever" one.

A teenage girl raped in Iran gets hanged. Injustice, indeed, or twisted justice if you will. Totally agree. Let's fill the TV stations with that, let's proclaim our angs and disagreement by protesting. I'm positive that at least 66 sincerely concerned celebrities will do all they can to save her.

But are you able to sincerely ask yourself how is this obviously injust death penalty any different from so many indirect death pentalties our society issues every single day to millions of people in it's own ranks and around the world?

When you gather the courage to actually look the truth in the face you realize that you or your way of life or your political system is in no way "better" or "worse" than any other systems out there.

How limited is your imagination? Is this possible? I am in total awe and amazement of human inability to observe themselves from some other point than that of their balooning ego.

The computer I'm sitting at, the keyboard I'm typing this message with...I can only afford it at a cheap price because I know that someone else thousands of miles away wont have anything to eat today. I can only go and buy a pair of cheap shoes because somewhere there is a lot of children being abused for work in factories at disgustingly low income. The beaurocracy, administration can only produce middle class when there is someone somewhere behind a machine, *actually doing* something. And the western world can only goof around with it's science and "freedom" and "high living standard" at the expense of third world.

So what am I going to do now? Stop eating? Sell my computer? Walk bare-footed? I wish I had the strenght of heart for somesuch decision and I hope that at some point in my life my realizations will be followed by according actions.

But I do know one thing, I do not EVER want to be blind again by fooling my own soul and twisting my vision.

Someone made an analogy in some other post on Iran being like a little child and west like it's parent, watching the child not to harm himself or someone else with that stick that it is determined to get in his hands.

Haha...a similar thing comes to my own mind...humanity is like a parent to an insolent brat that is west. It lets him have all the toys it wants at expense of it's parents health and well-being, hoping silently that the child might some day realize his actions and come to wisdom. Not much more a parent can do anyway.


if at this point a thousand reasons has come to your mind "why it's not THAT bad after all".....please dont...save your reasoning for your own consciousness to feel better, or perhaps to offer support to your fellow sleepers...and if this post brought up questions to you, leave them for another, better, time, when you will be actually able to ponder on them from a truly critical point of view.

If you were in the USA you could vote Democrat in the November 7, 2006 election. We Democrats think that exploiting the weak and helpless is not the way to go.

I'm sure that there are people who are striving to find a way to their heart among the republicans as well. And I am also sure that not all of the democrats share your vision or see it as clearly as you do.

The whole point of my post was there is much more important issue than pledging allegiance to political groups or countries or gepoles - an individual's ascent to higher awareness of the world and his surroundings.

Think with your own heads and there will be less "nuke iran" posts, less ignorance, less misunderstandings.

Do not rely on anyone else in your search for truth, concerning that question it is only you and the universe, noone will be ever able to help you to truly find yourself.

It is you and me who is responsible for what is going on in the world. Not george w. bush, not ahmadinejad, not even hitler or stalin or whoever.


Hmm but then again, such ramblings are of little value to humanity that prefers a sparrow in their hands rather than a pigeon on a roof.

You say you democrats strive for honesty and understanding? I'm very happy to hear that and I hope that your efforts will prove fruitful for yourself and your fellow humans across the globe. It is step by step that we will change the world and it is step by step that people will be allowed to realize their true nature.

Even if you consider yourself a democrat (or whatever), you are not obliged to accept what democrats accept or reject what democrats reject.

It is rather your responsibility not to.

It is fooling oneself if one thinks that a view on the world that a group of people shares can be taken as universal or ultimate truth or the one and only way. But people are strongly inclined to. Since I seriously lack tactfulness at this hour of night I'll put it bluntly and ask you; are you a part of the herd? Or an individual, intellectual, human being, as you probably picture yourself?

Believe it or not this is where the shit starts. Our legacy, our forefathers, animals, all animals. Still animals we are, too.

Do not seek for anwsers in your neighbours, in your governments, in your voting district. Seek the anwsers to current world situation in yourself.

But I'm getting ahead of myself again... like a couple of thousand years probably.

I just may have become a mind reader as well.
"Move this post to philosophy forums! It doesnt fit here, in this forum REAL, ACTUAL, things are to be discussed." echoes in my head.

Well... You are more real than any 1000 page united nations report, than any analysis made by pentagon and certainly more real than the delusionary existance of an struggling animal in this given moment in history of mankind. And You can only change the world by trying to UNDERSTAND it, not by making new weapons, not by developing new religions, not by developing new political systems, and most certainly NOT by saying "We are right and they are wrong!"

Radical extremism crap? Indeed it is. But I'm a really big pile of stinking poo simply because I can not understand those people and what drives them to such actions and I can not think of another way to help them other than by making threats and extortions.

Many of us is one big heart and compassion until our own head is on the line. Well, to think another time, that would be good. We're far worse than that in reality. We are not even willing to trade our COMFORT for a bit brighter world, a world that could offer every child on the planet what he deserves; a childhood full of dreams and love.

"Darfur? Poor people...but thats so far away."...It is NOT far away. It is in front of OUR NOSES (says Moses - sorry, couldnt resist it, hehe) and we do NOTHING about it.

"Not my fault if my government wont send troops to crisis areas!" Anwser yourself this; who do you usually vote for, a politician who shows his concern about the entire world or a politician who promises short term economical bounties and puts strong emphasis on your own nation's well-being, while you dont even want to know how and at whose expense? Do you vote for a politician who promises more free food in schools for your already overweight children that are sick of every possible toy you can buy them or do you vote a politician who wants to use your (yeah, the one you are WORKING FOR) tax money to allow people thousands of miles away to have SOMETHING to eat?

Funny, isnt it, nothing is really your fault, you're just a little poor working man making his way in a world dominated by powerful magi...khm, politicians (who are obviously demi-gods as it is obviously only them who makes the decisions, not indirectly the voters who put them in place, right?).

i dont know...I have realized some things in the past couple of years that make me really ashamed of myself and I am more than not sad, well, rather devastated, when I look at the world and humanity as it really is.

I am an animal myself, i love comfort myself, I like cheap electro-gadgets, I like to have sex, i dont think I will ever have the strenght make such a step in my life as some great people have.

Still, whenever I can I help by trying to be honest, even at my own expense, by trying to get rid my mind of prejudices, and by adding a little love and compassion to the hatred torn world. As much as the beast within will allow I am struggling to be a human.

I am just like you, really, and all I ask of you is to add your little bit of humanity to this ravaged planet we call our Home.

Nature is cruel. There are limited resources forcing intraspecies competition, and there is a general lack of acceptance of personal responsibility within our society. Oh, and cultural relativity reigns supreme.



Does that just about sum up what you are saying? Nothing more profound than that?

the "have nots" often attempt to discredit the "haves", whether it be about power, understanding, influence, or materialistic goods. I sense profound misunderstanding, egoism, and inexperience in pokeman. Time, understanding, and compassion will probably remedy that.

In the USA, the Republicans are in total control of the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of government. Democrats will take power in November and do something about it.

One must accept the animal portion of his nature and learn to use it to advantage when he can, and overcome it when he must.

Love and compassion are the antidotes to hatred. Violence only causes more violence.

o.O lucid dream i'm glad you're here to correct my wrong thinking and youthful eagerness with one swift dogmatic sentance that is a most colorful testament to your understanding and sensitive nature. I am glad to see that this warm ray of wisdom you have so benevolently chose to cast upon the less fortunate reflects in a twisted fashion just what I was trying to tell you. No, dont write anything, you have probably misunderstood me again, if you are even capable of misunderstanding.

And oh, when you read something you dont like (like I did just now, and like you just did before), and if you decide or see that it's just a bunch of crap and not worth a discussion, please, try and sting with imagination, even SS executions squads had more style than you.

Oh, a decilitre of nembutal might remedy that. Now be a good boy and move your ass from bed to sofa, it's time for your daily constitutional.

Yes, it's not all that bad , I see your view hehe, we are all trying in our little ways. My view was extreme, though not intent on overall criticism, rather on extreme idealistic self-criticism. But that's obviously out of grasp of your perception. I should have known better than ask a smoker wether he thinks smoke does bad for him^^ I apologize for any inconvenience this might have coused in this cosy environment of organized minds whose imagination has a span of -50+50 years from time being and whose passions could well compete with those of a dead horse. Do you think I should seek professional help to fit in with the rest?^o.O Definitely should.

Well after this display of mutual intolerance and contempt towards one's self-indulged limitations a snack would be a good idea.

So I take it that political action has no place in your plan for improving the world. Sarcasm alone is fine, but insufficient.

No Rick I didnt mean that, obviously nowadays political mechanisms are more or less the only way for people to influence the course their nations take. What is insufficient imo is the ABILITY of people to actually USE those mechanisms in a proper, truly democratic way.

You see, you dont just "put" a political mechanism like democracy in place and expect it to work. Democracy, democratic thinking, and responsibility that comes with it on each and every citizen of a given nation is something that can not be learned in a couple of decades.

For a true democracy, you need responsible, consciouss people. People that dont just care about their own behinds, people that are at least beginning to be aware of how their own (not just U.S. here of course) country and their own lifestyle affects the rest of the world.

Sitting there saying "but i'm just trying to make it thru life, i got a job, i'm no criminal, what are you saying to meeee????" wont do the trick, any fool can play stupid. Yes, in my opinion the western civilisation and it's capitalistic system is directly responsible for a lot of mischief and misery happening across the world.

You can say "oh, you're an idealist...". Well if idealism stands for at least a BIT of honesty and treating people like human beings that they are, instead of something that should be marketed along with the rest of the crap the stores are full of, hell yeah, i'm an idealist. Does that seem something distant for you? Something from dusty tomes of spiritual masters? Thats the main problem. The almost only thing this scientific and economical and informational revolution has achieved is actually really just that it made satisfaction of our needs "easier", it might stop there, but instead it creates new and new needs, it force feeds them to people who in that light seem no more than a bunch of monkeys who invented an automatic banana picker.

Do we TRULY live in age of information? Maybe, but how capable are we of actually getting the information that really matters? How capable are we of ASKING the right questions?

There is 40.000 lobbyists residing in Washington. I daresay that, just from following news and connectings a few strings together, the corporative segment is becoming overwhelming for the democratic mechanisms. The number of scandals, corruption, lobbying, ex congresmen being charimen of huge military corporations and vice versa...oh, please.... US democracy (i'm pointing out US since it in my opinion kind of represents the western world, being the cradle of democracy here, also a country that many other countries look up to) is being reduced to capitocracy. Yes, it is, you know it is, you can see it is. They are lying in your face, in our face, and we're too blind (or too cosy?) to see it. Actually, we ourselves are lying to ourselves. Uh, whaddisay?

How many americans do you think actually gets concerned when a corruption scandal erupts, and actually ask themselves "hey, wtf? we dont want that, thats not democracy!" Imo most of them just asks themselves "hey, how will this affect my life, will it allow me to get a bit richer, or will it make me work harder?"

THAT is what most of people on the world ask themselves when it comes to political decisions, and THESE are the strings the politics and corporations are pulling on the people. like puppets we are.

I respect your political allegiance but i'd say that the things are too much settled in now that either democrats or republicans could make any notable change and a step back to the right path.

You got 2 major parties for a loooooong time now. Each of them spends millions and millions of dollars for their promotion. Sure, other political parties can go to elections as well. But isnt it wierd, that for such a looooong time the american people has been chosing over 2(!!) different parties only (coincidentally, the only 2 parties with considerable amount of monetary support,*hint, hint*)? Name ONE candidate that didnt have huuuge money behind him and who won election for at least a bit important decision making post. Isnt it wierd that in a couple of centuries of "democracy" the consciousness of people has not developed even as much as to give some third party a chance? Nazi propaganda, communist propaganda....and, funny, not a hint of capitalist propaganda? That cant be!

How is it possible that so many people choose to fool themselves rather than , bloody hell is it THAT hard, start thinking with their own heads?

We like the way we live. Our systems that feed on cheap third world work force, cheap third world resources, cheap third world lives....That doesnt matter. I turn on TV and I see a hotshot with 5 babes around him and a white tiger on a chain. I ponder on how this can be? I ponder on the fact that thousands of teens are looking up to that dude who is promoting a life of luxury and a boosting ego. That is what we want to be, to live a life in which everything lies within grasp of our reach. And we are so blinded by that wish that we neglect and ignore anything that might lead us on a path that would actually make the name "humanity" worth something.


It is not just democrats or republicans, it's not just west or east, it's not just commy or cappy...it's about us, we got a huge problem, as a human society we are unable to break the treshold of awareness.

It is still just us, our interests and our fears, our needs and our idiocracies....and for all that, we are willing to trade all that is humane in us. We, my friend, are in a deep slumber, and far from being worth the throne we have entitled to ourselves ages ago, the throne of "civilisation".

pokeman, are you really that naive? Surely you already know the answers for the questions you posed above. Why don't you reflect on that more and then post something intelligent.


You always have the option to not watch TV, which is exercised by a large portion of the population. You know, there's a reason it's called the boob tube. Really, the issue of questionable TV content does not warrant pondering since anyone and everyone has the option not to be exposed to it. That's part of what constitutes a "free society", and entails this concept called "responsibility".

I dont think you quite get my point there cerebral, what did you mean by naive? Naive as In "that wont happen, wake up, face the reality and work within it's given limitations?" Yeah, i'm a naive little idealist while out there people like you that have faced the reality are fighting for their survival...hee-hee...uh-huh;-)

Maybe it is you who should reply something intelligent and first double check if you are even capable of understanding what I'm trying to say...

I may well be naive and full of shit, but at least i'm full of something, it stinks of passion and will to understand the world, while you have given up to your "destiny" and to limitations you think are part of man's nature. To me, your view of "something intelligent" is not worth any more than the width of your perception.

Oh you think I'm young and inexperienced, that life will teach me more and then I will recognize my limits and how things really stand...well, that is you who you are talking about, it is not a mirror you're holding in front of my face, but a picture of yourself, and sorry, you dont turn me on even a bit^^

On the other note, your reply concerning the TV shows just how little you know about human beings and their behaviour. Now THAT is Naive, even within the resources of the current science there is plenty of reference to the effects of mass media, maybe you should check some out, it should be within your comprehension.

thanks for proving my point, again. Why don't you tell all of us what you've done of merit to make the world a better place? Complaining a lot and having temper tantrums like a little child does not help.

We seem to be proving eachother's points excessively here. Thats one of my points btw;-. What have I done? hehe, doing my little things, trying in my little ways, but most important of all is that i have started to ask myself questions that most people, like yourself, brush aside as some inconvenient yada-yada so they can focus on the tasks they deem cruical and are usually no more than complicated and profound versions of plain and simple survival instinct, with extended care to their family and maybe nation thru patriotic feelings...that may not be blind but the sight is damn short nonetheless

I'm sure it's quite pleasant to be a stoic materialist, untouched (or, better, think to be) by anything, having a calm, "adult temper" (or is it?), viewing the world thru the monotonous lense of science. And apply that to humans, animals, everything there is, and dont forget to make some exceptions as well so you wont feel bad. You ARE a human, after all.

Sooo...how far has world, west, come with this philosophy? To what I have described, somehow provocatively (it was an intention on the level of sub-consciousness;P) , above and in my initial post. And obviously, the things I wrote bother you very much, as much so you actually feel insulted a bit and you write "So, what have you done?".


It got you so itchy you actually didnt even notice that it was not meant to accuse anyone, rather to point out the facts and our current level of development. Well, thats a vague description.

So, I dare you to provide your own view of the above mentioned question. I guess it would be something like "OMG, the human kind has never been as technologically, informatically, bla bla bla developed! We r0x!"
and a bunch of examples of good human (or western, if you think better in smaller, more unified and applicable terms:-)) conduct from RealLife, which would be, preferrably, followed by my own examples of bad deeds to counter yours...which would end in..o.O


Isnt that something we all hear every day? on TV, in magazines, on the net, on the news, in documentary movies openings...will it KILL you if your ego would just once say "omg...we, no no, *I* have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT left to learn, let's start by assessing my current situation and level of development, that would be a nice step onward, let me start by becoming *honest with myself*".

nah...ya all get all excited when someone says something is "bad" and that people are actually being treated like shit because we like our comfort for example. Zomg! that cant be! we are the pinnacle of democracy, a beacon of hope, a shred of light.../sigh

We (western culture or u.s. or whatever) CANT be doing so bad because whatever we are doing we are ALL doing it. And WE are good! WE cant be blind and bad! WE will assim...khm...(i just HAD to write that line).
Is your empathy really so limited that you can not put yourself in shoes of some radical islamist or north korean or chinese or indian, thinking the very same thing with equal fervor and feeling the same feelings?

Isnt that...illogical, to say the least?

I want people to start thinking on their own, find truth independently of others, independently of current authorities in fields of science, religion, political parties or whatever. That is the whole point, that is what most of people on earth are not even aware of, that is what it makes you earn the title ***individual*** (<---ponder on this word). That is the reason for my post description.

What I'm saying is we have just began to wake up, and thats nothing we should be ashamed of, i am pissed tho, that most of the people would prefer to nap a few minutes more. Oh well, what can be done there anyway:-() No such thing could be ever learned by having someone fill forums with posts or books with pages or discs with information.

Actually, i think that whenever i write about such things and get all excited about it i'm just looking for someone who could understand it and i get frustrated when few people do^^

Child? i like being childish^^ It adds certain flavour to life and sometimes even provokes interesting forum debates:-)

presumptuous. We are all but transient expressions of something far greater than our selves.

The rest of your post involves further presumption, so I won't comment but to point out that what you're feeling and experiencing, others have too, long ago, centuries even millenia ago. It is an evolution towards something else. What that is you will hopefully find out sooner or later, and perhaps think to share it with others if you can put it in words.

lol thats ALL you gotta say? "presumptous"....o.O oh well