To be honest, I rarely have a "helova good time" whilst on any hallucinogen. I have a love/hate relationship with these substances that is almost sadistic, curiosity and awe seem to be my main motivation

I feel meditation is important when integrating the psychedelic experience into every day life. Every time I use an entheogen I meditate before and after. This allows for cultivation of awareness into everyday life. It allows me to transcend attachment to lower third-dimensional ego consciousness into higher more expanded states of awareness/being.

Taking psychedelics alone without meditation would not be nearly as effective IME. All information and energy and understanding received during such an experience would be lost to the fog of the conditioned mind.

Altered states induced by drugs is not a transcended state of consciousness. What you are attempting to delude yourself with is the ego's belief in transcended states of consciousness which is not something that you visit on occasion or with the help of some chemical process.


Effective meditation is a progressive movement toward permanent expansion of conscious awareness, which by the way in its early stages is rarely free from the influence of the ego unless you are enlightened already. Taking drugs creates scarring in the natural pathways that allow the mind and body to connect naturally, making it more difficult to naturally achieve communion with the absolute. Anyone in an expanded state of awareness would never compromise their ability to commune with the absolute by taking drugs of any kind.
Taking drugs actually stresses the nervous system which has to be cleared and unraveled before the mind and body can return to its natural state.

Unless you can transcend the drugs before taking them (which would preclude the insanity of taking the drug in the first place in the attempt to further delude yourself in the belief that you can permanently expand consciousness by taking drugs of any kind) drugs will have the opposite effect of any comprehensive meditation.

With drugs altered states are random and unpredictable. With the discipline of meditation and the removal of stress from the nervous system the permanent relationship of the awareness with the absolute is stable, permanent and predictable as one becomes more aware of reality.
The only thing predicable about taking drugs is that you will experience something different when you take them and it will take more of the drug to achieve something even similar to the time before.

This is purely your opinion Joesus, the fact of the matter is these substances are of major importance to understanding our own nature and the process that leads to mystical experiences. These hallucinations can happen naturally, as I've experienced. If you were my priest you'd have probably jumped to the conclusion I was possessed by some kind of demons then had me cleansed with fire...

If it's an Hallucination then is it natural? Yes Anyone can hallucinate, in fact that is probably closer to the reality of the waking state mind which is steeped in beliefs and mental conditioning.
What is natural for the mind and body in expanded states of consciousness is not induced by chemically altered states that are temporary and inconsistent.

But I'm not a priest, and I'm not inclined to believe that superstitious assumptions rallied around the manipulation of the mind with hallucinogens is the scientific foundation for the discovery of God or the equal of enlightened mind-body chemistry.


Mystical experiences are for mystics, those who barely understand the reality in the physical, have a tough time dealing with their physical experience and spend a lot of time attempting to merge the physical in the projections of their best guess of what exists outside their own beliefs.
The reality of this is that when it is all said and done, and the mind comes to realize that altered states are derivatives of stress and chemically induced altered states of consciousness, and can only point the way to what is much more clear when the body is cleared of stress, the mind is cleared of stress, one naturally expands ones self into a stable reality that exists and underlies the mental and physical conditioning of illusions created by beliefs and fantasy.

If you want to understand the reality of your True permanent nature does it really make sense to believe that you would be a hallucination, or something that is temporary, inconsistant and impermanent?

maybe you should realize your own delusions.

mushrooms connect us with nature, with ourselves. you are a fool if you believe the ego cannot be transcended through entheogens and meditation combined. i have expanded 4 feet out of my body in all directions on lsd. i have experienced multi-dimensional conscious awareness out of body experiences on high doses of ketamine while the sun was coming up. this is not my ego's belief, this is an experience. it would be a delusion to deny the experience, and deny the fact that I transcended attachment to mind/body.

just because mushrooms are external, or induce some "chemical process", does not mean it is not natural and delusional. absolutely rediculous. we are connected with the earth, we use the earth's tools to connect with ourselves. obviously you are ignorant of what goes on within a shaman in the amazon when he ingests ayahuasca.

Plants contain something which could be called a spirit, or soul, or some consciousness. When I ingest such a plant I have the feeling that this part of the planet heals us. My own consciousness attracts itself, through you.




I agree, this is why I stated it is important to integrate the entheogenic experience with meditation.

just because some experiences are caused by chemical reactions in the brain does not mean it is not natural. the brain is made up of chemicals, adding chemicals to the mix is not adding something unnatural. everything is natural to some extent, hallucinations are natural because we are natural beings and everything we experience is natural. it is our interpretation that is illusion. all experience is real. the
experiences induced from entheogens is not all chemical, this is absurd. it is a combination with the earths tools and our awareness/brain which allows us to transcend body and connect with the earth.

altered states induced by entheogens DO NOT have to be temporary and inconsistent. this is why i mentioned before that it is important to INTEGRATE the experiences with meditation so more awareness/understanding/information can be accessed and received during the sober state.


Mystical experiences are for mystics, those who barely understand the reality in the physical, have a tough time dealing with their physical experience and spend a lot of time attempting to merge the physical in the projections of their best guess of what exists outside their own beliefs.

saying mystics do not understand the reality of the physical is absurd and completely ignorant. first of all you are using a label to describe something which should have no label. second, you do not know all mystics and what they know/experience. stop assuming you do, this is delusion and illusion and manifestation of lower dimensional ego self.


If you want to understand the reality of your True permanent nature does it really make sense to believe that you would be a hallucination, or something that is temporary, inconsistant and impermanent?

consciousness expansion, NDE, OBE, astral travel, healing induced through entheogens+meditation is not a hallucination. it is a real experience. i have hallucinated and i have experienced more expanded things. maybe you haven't, if you haven't experienced then you would have no idea. absolutely none.

good day!

light information is something we can tune into with or without catalysts such as the sacred shroom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J1lfWjOaCs&v3

Has anyone else noticed that there does seem to be an obvious Sun-God-Serotonin-Tryptamine connection here?

Yes Simon, some of us have. Others who have only read of such experiences doubt it, others who have only had naturally enduced experiences doubt it, and finally the small majority who have had both
natural experiences and artificially enduced experiences see there is a strong similarity in both, but favour the natural.

What I see though is a society that doesn't want the majority to experience ego dissolution, either to keep power or to keep the majority behaving like sheep. If feeling Nirvana or the like is all that, then why are so many people threatened by peoples attempts to reach it?

I'm not sure we need to be rid of ego's, maybe they just need to be put into perspective and/or evolved abit.

Sunlight induces serotonin production and most psychedelics have serotonin as a key core structure. Serotonin tends to make one feel rather more amiable and cooperative. The pineal gland has a direct link to light in function maybe that is the rational as to the "third eye" reference in yogic texts.
The Sun has been worshiped for ever, no need to state it's importants anymore here but the link to oneness is via serotonin interests me in a psycho-chemical-religious way.

No you believe a mushroom can do what you yourself cannot without the placebo.

Altered state of mind experiences are not experiences that expand the conscious awareness and transcend the ego permanently. Experiences are experiences and they come and go. Your emotional response eludes to the ego still being alive and well as it defends itself and its belief.


So now you are omniscient and can do a better job of scrambling your brain chemicals with this excuse rather than transcending limitations at will?

You mean like mystical experiences?


I've never heard of a mystic who is dependent on an external chemical to have a mystical experience, making a claim to being able to transcend reality on their own natural will power? I have however heard them (like yourself) make excuses for their dependence on their outside source and, making claims to this dependence being natural


Yes expansion of consciousness has its experiences as do altered states which produce experiences that one may not normally have on their own, but when it comes to something that is permanently expanded and opens the mind to the ability to transcend the illusions of the ego NDE's OBE's astral projections and lucid dreams are experiences that may reveal certain aspects of the infinite and its possibilities but they do not free the mind from its beliefs and render the ego to its best service above and beyond attachment to identities of the self and the unboundedness of God.
Experiences come and go and often you are left with a memory that may seem lasting but they (memories) degrade after time.
Enlightenment does not deteriorate with time and there is no need to feed its growth with addictive habits.

What if you stopped meditating?

A magic mushroom is definately not a placebo, how can it be? There is no effect that is exactly like it anywhere.
Also Joesus, this statement is wrong because I've not seen one indication that hallucinogens are addictive, they have a self regulating scare-your-ass off quality if taken constantly. Many of them have a super fast tolerance build up which means you are physically unable to get high more than once every few days.

Meditation is a tool, not the source of ones being.
Even of one turns their conscious awareness from the essence of themselves to follow some delusional thought, the reality of ones being does not really go anywhere, which is why one can find within themselves the reality of their being in the first place. It really takes no time at all with commitment and focus to glimpse the reality of the Self. The meditative process only facilitates the natural ability to become more familiar with that which underlies all experience, and as such one becomes less addicted to any kind of experience and becomes more stable in that which supports all experiences.


The people who lean on an external source to gain what is inside of themselves, give to their icons or their devices of manipulation more power than they believe they have within, and as such find it necessary to turn to something other than their own inner strength because they have no faith in themselves and their ability to create the experience without it. The conditioning one sets within their own mind on the outer dependence is illusory same as a placebo.

Those who claim to have glimpsed the essence of who they are under the influence of some kind of drug are likely to make a similar claim to where they are going if they were to drive down a road blindfolded and take a picture out of the window at some random moment on their journey, then develop the picture after several years to say this is where I was going after really never experiencing or knowing what they are seeing.


The addiction is relative to the dependence on external sources of strength power and manipulation, to achieve something one believes they are connected to but cannot achieve on their own.
Society in general is addicted to their beliefs in the illusions they create outside of themselves. Using Drugs or alcohol to create the experiences of strength and clarity is pretty common in the stressed environment of the waking state world.
There is no tolerance build up to the natural progression of expanding consciousness, but there are signposts in the twisting of experiences and the projections one makes about who and what they are based on the inconsistencies in the hallucinations one has while taking drugs or alcohol.
The Ego can always justify itself with any crutch it uses to identify itself, but in the end it still boils down to the same thing.
Anytime someone decides they need something external to make themselves whole isn't grasping the magnificence of who they really are.

I think some of your analogies are just plain wrong, its much easier to say "oops, maybe I wasn't totally thinking and meant something else" than post all that nonsense.

I could just as easily describe meditation as a tool. It alters the brain in fundamental ways, it makes you 'spaced' out and a 'god botherer'. Just because your tools are techniques and others are entheogens does not make your way better than anothers way. Wherever you find personal truth and happiness is where you should head.

What about the little cult you run Joesus? Isn't that people taking in something external to belong and feel whole? Context is important.

Or you could say oops I guess I wasn't looking at it the way you were and seeing a bigger picture regarding the conditioning that takes hold within the identification on puts one external sources of power and authority.

As you say context is important, and understanding context leads to correct understanding and use of the principle forces of nature.

You would then be speaking towards the truth but not necessarily grasping the reality of what that means
That would be the misunderstanding I was speaking of. The belief that meditation could make someone be certain way disregards the reality and awareness of choice


The personal choice thing is what everyone is imbued with, however not all roads lead to the same place. You make take several roads and detours to reach the same place as you could by going straight to where you want to go.
People are capable of making the choices they want to make according to what they believe is truth for them. I have no problem whether someone wants to use drugs. Using the tool that is most effective is sometimes preceded by wisdom and instruction. If one is taught to pound in a nail with a screwdriver without learning about how to use a hammer or without the knowledge of what a hammer is then the screwdriver method would seem most logical.

What I do know is that there is wisdom, knowledge and experience regarding the expansion of consciousness and it does speak of ways that are natural, effective and without side effects or immunities that occur when depending on external sources such as drugs.

As I said before altered states of consciousness reached by drugs are like taking a picture while being blind to the reality you are in and projecting an idea that what is developed represents something of value. Whatever glimpse you get will be more likely to reflect your subconscious beliefs rather than a clear example of what lies beyond them.
There is more to what we are than could ever be represented in the interpretations of a few random glimpses into a distorted view through a hallucination.



Context is important. Which is what this conversation is about. God cannot be manufactured, and so any force one uses to manufacture a god or experience of something that is labeled as God is going to reveal itself in the face of Truth.
There are certain consistencies that resonate at the level of the heart and go beyond the needs of the ego or intellect to justify ones reasons for choice.
Generally speaking everyone knows what is inside of them but not everyone wants to acknowledge that truth because of the addictions to the external experiences they have and crave. The ego seeks constant entertainment within its boundaries of understanding but when one reaches greater understanding there is no external tool or placebo that can replace the strength that exists within ones self.

I don't know, but if I had to guess, I would say that Joesus probably has psychedelic experience and has moved on past that phase.

Which might lead to the question or opinion of whether I had enough, too much or not enough?

Not to me. As you indicate, you have no need for more.

Well I wasn't really thinking about you when I said that.

Fair enough.

I don't believe, I experience. Big difference there. When my third eye is activated, labelling this experience as placebo is absurd. Obviously you have not experienced so there is no need for me to say anymore. Continue trying to prove your beliefs, because thats all they are. Experience is completely different. Bless the egomaniac.


Altered state of mind experiences are not experiences that expand the conscious awareness and transcend the ego permanently.

You need to concentrate more on what I have said previously. Of course they do not allow you to transcend the ego permanently. They give you an understanding of the ego, which helps you to transcend it with meditation.

Meditation alone cannot induce such a deep understanding of the body and ego, this is why psychedelics for me have allowed my meditation to progress at an exponential rate.

There is no need for me to go on, I know the difference between my beliefs and my experience. Belief/ego/body is 3rd/4th dimensional and the others of which I am speaking of are 5th and 6th dimensional, big difference and easy to observe. My experiences are only imagination to you, so of course everything I say can be considered ego based. Those who have not experienced my depth only perceive a reflection of their lower self.

In your case not really.

It's not the experience I was referring to, it was your need for the mushroom that you give strength to, and the belief that you cannot achieve such an experience by yourself without it.
The experience and your belief that your third eye is open is altogether a different and more humorous subject.


There wasn't a need for you to say anything in the first place other than to defend your belief so that it might seem more real to you.


Experience is something...., and I applaud to the experience or rather the ability to transcend reality without a need for external chemicals to scramble the more than capable human nervous system when it is not filled with so much stress and belief in limitations.

Really your just making an excuse for taking hallucinogens. One could learn about the ego very effectively without taking anything to alter ones state of mind and create a chemical dependency to project an experience of life beyond duality.


Using your reasoning I expect you have tried all forms of meditation and means of self discipline, and.... have full knowledge of where you are going to make such assumptions regarding your progress.
Anyone can toot their own horn and make claims to experience themselves having reached expanded states of awareness. Only one who has traveled that road would be able to tell whether another has really accomplished such a task. Also anyone can make claims to having done something in a crowd that has no knowledge of a subject.


You said something to the effect of not needing to go on in a previous sentence but you seem to find reason to go on anyway..I would say that you can't really keep track of your experiences and your beliefs if you have to repeat yourself.


I'm experiencing something...., and if it were beyond ego I think it would be more of a reflection of my higher self. But I think your statement is more accurate. It is definately something of a different flavor.

Belief and actual experience are two very different things. No one is saying we need the shroom, only that it can shake a non-religious/spiritual person into the realisation of the reasons behind religion. This gives the person the experience, then they can do what they like with that understanding, but you can guarantee their interest in natural methods will be peaked.

Without entheogens it would be extremely rare to find a person who naturally experiences mystical states without the tools such as meditation or entheogens. They are as rare as prophets and messiahs have always been. Therefore the experience brings a new light, new direction, and is a catalyst to real knowledge of who we are. This is not to say shrooms should be taken by everyone everyday, but it is extremely valuable.

This statement eludes to the belief that he/she couldn't have achieved their present state of mind without it.
"Meditation alone cannot induce such a deep understanding of the body and ego, this is why psychedelics for me have allowed my meditation to progress at an exponential rate."
This statement ignores thousands of years of spiritual practice without the use of entheogens in favor of a personal belief.

I don't deny the ritual practice of shamanic inebriants. When mankind loses its awareness of its own natural abilities it often turns to devices of mental manipulation to glimpse a keyhole view of the reality that lies beyond the mental barriers of conditioning and limitation, but the means are less affective and more often like throwing darts at a target blindfolded and from 100 yards away. The ego often believes it can master reality from a state of ignorance.


The value is relative to the inability to conceive the reality of natural law. Just as a person can become dependent on medicine rather than the ability to heal ones self, it is only the lack of knowledge and experience that perpetuates the idea that these placebo's have value.

In the big picture, everything has value. Just as a child must sometimes fall before it becomes adept at walking, these ideas and means of approach exist for the experience of becoming aware of ones own natural abilities rather than the means to achieve them. Eventually one will put down the crutch to walk without it, and find they could have done so at any time. In that statement is the reality that truth exists in example if a true seeker is willing to give up their limited ideas to receive what already exists in the natural abilities of the human in the form of knowledge that is ignored because it doesn't fit into ones personal agenda.

Saying that, there is no wrong way of doing life, but there are certainly more affective ways and means than to taint the natural ability of the human mechanism with chemicals or stimulants to force it beyond the minds own ability to transcend belief. The only reason limitation is experienced is because of what the mind holds onto as reality. If one believes they know of reality beyond their current experience that alone is a catalyst for change. All one need do is turn toward that and the universe responds to the mind instantly.
The problem with the waking state mind is that it holds onto the limited until it is convinced something greater exists. This ego ignoring the knowing of the heart is what controls the mind, it is a shield of fear and it remains in place until one finally decides to let it go.
In the examples given by FP she/he still holds onto the limitation gathering experiences to bolster the belief that the reality beyond limitation exists. There will come a time, (maybe) when this person will not be so enamored with the experience which will open up much more possibility.

There is a saying. "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." or "Fools rush in where fools have been before."

In one of Castaneda's books, Don Juan tells Carlos that he had to give him drugs because he was such a dolt that there was no other way to get through to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda

In Journey to Ixtlan, the third book in the series, he wrote:

My perception of the world through the effects of those psychotropics had been so bizarre and impressive that I was forced to assume that such states were the only avenue to communicating and learning what don Juan was attempting to teach me.
That assumption was erroneous.

To say there is alot of info tying the 3 together might be a bit of an exaggeration.
I found this..


Its more funny, than it is interesting.

Soma (also called the glue of the universe) is the molecule produced by the body when the body and mind come together in spiritual awakening. The refinement of Soma is Amrita, sometimes called the immortality molecule. Amrita is refined from the soma when the DNA begins to transform, unlock or when dormant attributes become active in higher states of consciousness.

[quote name='Joesus' date='Sep 06, 2007, 10:15 PM' post='82666']
I don't believe, I experience. Big difference there.[/quote]

In your case not really.[/quote]

How are you so sure you you can assume how attached to my belief I am? If I talk through awareness and not the cloud of mind I know that I am just speaking words. Realizing that I can drop attachment to them. If I were to speak through a belief construct rather than awareness that would likely be a different story. But experience is not a belief construct, an interpretation is though.


[quote]It's not the experience I was referring to, it was your need for the mushroom that you give strength to, and the belief that you cannot achieve such an experience by yourself without it.
The experience and your belief that your third eye is open is altogether a different and more humorous subject.[/quote]

When did I say I *needed* mushrooms, and when did I say I gave strength to them? I mentioned earlier that they were merely catalysts to speed one's understanding of the self. It is humorous to observe your lack of attention and understanding of what is being communicated here.

Saying my third eye was activated does not have to mean it was permanently activated. Observe the possibilities. It was open for the duration of the experience(s).


[quote]Obviously you have not experienced so there is no need for me to say anymore.[/quote]

There wasn't a need for you to say anything in the first place other than to defend your belief so that it might seem more real to you.


[quote][quote]Continue trying to prove your beliefs, because thats all they are. Experience is completely different. Bless the egomaniac.[/quote]

Experience is something...., and I applaud to the experience or rather the ability to transcend reality without a need for external chemicals to scramble the more than capable human nervous system when it is not filled with so much stress and belief in limitations.[/quote]

How are you so sure my nervous system contains belief in limitations, and how are you so sure entheogens make me stay attached to these beliefs?. You are letting your belief that the "stress of the nervous system" prevents one from realizing truth contained within the experience. Just because there may be some form of stress does not mean I can't transcend my attachment to body and ego and understand what is going on within me.


[quote][quote]You need to concentrate more on what I have said previously. Of course they do not allow you to transcend the ego permanently. They give you an understanding of the ego, which helps you to transcend it with meditation.[/quote]

Really your just making an excuse for taking hallucinogens. One could learn about the ego very effectively without taking anything to alter ones state of mind and create a chemical dependency to project an experience of life beyond duality.[/quote]

And what exuse is that? My experiences have shown me how my mind operates on a very deep level. I know this because this is what I have been shown. To understand how the ego operates, one must dissolve attachment to it. That is observance. It takes many people a long time to achieve this kind of detachment through meditation alone. Most will never make it in todays society. You believe that anybody in todays world can just as easily and in the same amount of time achieve this kind of detachment through meditation alone? In my experience, entheogens and meditation are important. I feel entheogens would not do much for me if I never practised daily meditation. During meditation I realize things that were realized on an entheogenic experience. This is how they work together, it is kind of like deja vu. Realization is a powerful thing.


[quote][quote]Meditation alone cannot induce such a deep understanding of the body and ego, this is why psychedelics for me have allowed my meditation to progress at an exponential rate.[/quote]

Using your reasoning I expect you have tried all forms of meditation and means of self discipline, and.... have full knowledge of where you are going to make such assumptions regarding your progress.
Anyone can toot their own horn and make claims to experience themselves having reached expanded states of awareness. Only one who has traveled that road would be able to tell whether another has really accomplished such a task. Also anyone can make claims to having done something in a crowd that has no knowledge of a subject.[/quote]

I have been meditating for 5 years. I have been to Vipassana meditation retreats meditating for 100 hours in 10 days. I have been egoless during these experiences, they have given me a deep understanding of my ego. But I don't feel I would ever be able to expand or contract my awareness into such micro/macrocosmic levels of consciousness with meditation alone. Entheogens are another pair of eyes for me, and I can access their sight. I cannot access this information with meditation alone, that is what I mean.


[quote]There is no need for me to go on, I know the difference between my experience and my beliefs.[/quote]

You said something to the effect of not needing to go on in a previous sentence but you seem to find reason to go on anyway..I would say that you can't really keep track of your experiences and your beliefs if you have to repeat yourself.[/quote]

I stated this because of your misunderstand. I feel the need to go on to help you understand where I am coming from. Although you may never as you cannot know so much about the entheogenic experience without having experience it. Claiming you do is just plain ignorance.


I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.

What makes you assume I assume anything?

That was it...and you did say a bit more about why it sped things up. Such as


It is either open and you are aware of it, or you have an experience and project that it is open because you have an experience.


Why can't you achieve the experiences you exalt without using a chemical mixer?

No you are letting stress and belief keep you from transcending limitation naturally without chemical mixers
That is point of this conversation, and you have plenty of time still, to do it.


Let's answer this one with your last statement
Which is closer to the truth than the self acclaimed kudos and the patting of yourself on the back.


You're confusing innocence and ignorance. Observance and self created systems of measure, are only created by the ego.


There are a lot of people in the world, and there are probably people that you do not know about who know alot more than you do.
But then how could you know?


I know that anyone can rise above ego at any time and it may take no time at all. And as long as you're comparing yourself to the entire race of humans on this planet and every type of discipline that there is, with the understanding that you have realized the standard for human evolution according to your experiences and knowledge, I'd say your Third eye has blinders on it.
I would also venture to guess that you have been fed some erroneous information.
More than that I would say that you are ignoring the fact that you are reflecting the ineffectiveness of your practice in meditation without the hallucinogenic experiences incurred through the use of psychoactive substances.
Do your Vapassana teachers encourage the use of mind altering drugs?

The Code of Discipline

The foundation of the practice is sila — moral conduct. Sila provides a basis for the development of samadhi — concentration of mind; and purification of the mind is achieved through panna — the wisdom of insight.
The Precepts

All who attend a Vipassana course must conscientiously undertake the following five precepts for the duration of the course:

1. to abstain from killing any living creature;
2. to abstain from stealing;
3. to abstain from all sexual activity;
4. to abstain from telling lies;
5. to abstain from all intoxicants.


Of course you would have to come to that conclusion because you haven't had another type of experience or one greater than the ones you have had. But I have every confidence that you will outgrow this illusion of yours.


You are confused. Having an experience during the process of repeating mantras does not make you ego-less. That comes from having transcended ego in activity. Anyone can trip along and have an experience that can be labeled as beyond ego but these are just experiences, and you are not your experiences as much as you want to believe you are.


That is what I have been saying all along. You are not doing what you are naturally capable of because you rely on the drug to get you there. You believe that you cannot do it when really you can. The only reason you haven't is because:
1: The effectiveness of your meditation due to the programs and influence you add to it.
2: The scarring that has taken place in your psyche due to the drugs and the belief in the drugs. And the power you give them to allow you to have an experience, in which you project your ego-less self.

So you keep going on about...


No, assuming I know nothing about what you are talking about and trying to convince me of your righteousness is just ego.

No, assuming I know nothing about what you are talking about and trying to convince me of your righteousness is just ego.

Your words are hypocritical and childish and it seems you have this all-knowing knowledge and superiority complex. How do you know my psyche is scarred? Where's your evidence? How do you know I can't heal my psyche after a psychedelic experience? You have overlooked many of my important points, so there is no need for me to go on if you are going to keep ignoring. I have explained myself well enough for you to be able to understand. I understand your point of view, but it is limited as to what I am saying. Continue on knowing everything, I hope one day you will realize that you know nothing.

Good day!

http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/hayes01.htm

Have you achieved the ability to transcend reality without the use of psychedelics?
No one said you couldn't heal your psyche after a psychedelic experience but why would you want to damage it or inhibit the natural ability of your nervous system in the first place?

I haven't overlooked your points. I have addressed them and you just don't happen to like the fact that you can't redeem yourself.
By the way you never answered my question regarding whether or not your Vipassana Teachers approved of you distorting the practice.
I understand perfectly. You said you can't achieve the altered state of mind nor the experience you want without psychedelics. The rest of the questionable claims regarding your state of mind since and during your altered states are still only claims made by someone who has created a self system of authority.(That'd be you)
You need to understand that anyone who cannot find themselves in their present experience and has to create a mood or an exuberant vision to fit the projection of who or what they might be according to the information they have accumulated is not illumined to their inherent nature. It is closer to a condition called enlightened ego.

You are still projecting a delusion that out of 6 billion people on this planet, no one knows better than you about expansion of consciousness and the effects of psychoactive drugs on the nervous system.

Right back atcha

You aren't seriously mixing your Teachings of Vipassana and an Author for High Times advocating the use of psychedelics as your reason for your beliefs are you?
Have you heard of Timothy Leary?

Leave it out Joesus, its a bit old now. Your assuming that your subjective enlightenment experience is actual enlightenment, maybe your brain is screwed up from naturally occuring chemicals caused by a huge ego...


If you want to teach the benefits of meditation, would you allow any of the above? Isn't it obvious that mixing meditation with booze, drugs or sex isn't going to give you an insight into the true benefit of meditation. According to your logic 'abstain from all sexual activity' is a rule that we should all live by and that'd be the end of humanity
This is your opinion and has no value at all. You don't agree with anything posted or are intentionally trolling, just state that and leave or be open to the possibility that its your ego thats in the way and its your third eye that is only half-open.

and that statement is just as biased Joesus. You cannot know the truth of history without having lived in it, your are assuming all previous assumptions and pieces of evidence have been interpreted correctly. You have done this again with your belief that Soma could not be an hallucinogen. There seems to be a similarity in Soma and Manna, and this should not be laughed off so quickly. You are assuming you know the truth, which discredits all that you teach.

I'm always willing to listen to an expert on enlightenment.

Maybe it's not...

Huh?

Are you giving me your valued opinion?

But I have lived in the past, so have you. All information regarding past experience is openly available in the present.

I believe I addressed the subject matter of an assumption regarding Soma being a mushroom according to Vedic scripture.
Whether someone in some past, somewhere in some place, called the active ingredient in a magic mushroom or the mushroom itself Soma isn't specific to Vedic scripture.
You should read the 9th mandala of the Rg Veda, it is pretty descriptive of Soma, Amrita and celestial experience, and it doesn't mention mushrooms.

So you believe Manna is a mushroom also?


I assume nothing and I teach nothing. Life can easily be discredited or embraced in all of its form and experience. In duality one makes up their own beliefs and systems of measure.

If you say soma and manna are mushrooms then how would anything I say change your mind unless you wanted to change your mind?
If I say they aren't you could say I was wrong but I don't really care what you say and I don't have to be right, or wrong. But I just may be right.
As long as your saying I'm wrong and you don't really know, then that might make you emotionally reactive to some things or some people in your universe.
If I did teach anything, it wouldn't be anything to do with beliefs but that which is beyond all beliefs, and since that can't be contained in any belief it would be difficult to contain it in any teaching.

Joesus you fucked the topic up my dear, do you know that?
I start to think that you do that intentionally.

HAHAHA I love you Enki--you have such a way with words

trojan_libido
Leave it out Joesus, its a bit old now. Your assuming that your subjective enlightenment experience is actual enlightenment, maybe your brain is screwed up from naturally occuring chemicals caused by a huge ego...

Enlightenment is something I'm sure none of us here have exerpienced. Sure we may have had glimpses of it, but some Satguru's have gone through a year long process of ego-death, only to come out with a much deeper understanding of themselves and their connection with the world and universe. Let's not forget much more attachment to awareness rather than ego.


Joesus
How do you know my psyche is scarred? Where's your evidence?
Have you achieved the ability to transcend reality without the use of psychedelics?

I have entered states of no-mind through meditation without the use of psychedelics. I have also had OBE's without the use of psychedelics induced through meditation. Also sensations of floating.


How do you know I can't heal my psyche after a psychedelic experience?
No one said you couldn't heal your psyche after a psychedelic experience but why would you want to damage it or inhibit the natural ability of your nervous system in the first place?

Where is the evidence that my nervous system is damaged?


You have overlooked many of my important points, so there is no need for me to go on if you are going to keep ignoring.
I haven't overlooked your points. I have addressed them and you just don't happen to like the fact that you can't redeem yourself.
By the way you never answered my question regarding whether or not your Vipassana Teachers approved of you distorting the practice.

I was sober during the Vipassana retreat. After the retreat I hiked up a mountain, pitched a tent made a fire and had a shamanic experience with my tools for self-discovery. The retreat and the entheogen's worked perfectly together, the 100 hours of meditation made me ultra-receptive to information.


I have explained myself well enough for you to be able to understand.
I understand perfectly. You said you can't achieve the altered state of mind nor the experience you want without psychedelics.

Your misunderstanding me. I do not "want" a certain experience. I feel it is part of my being and I use it to tune in to myself. I can achieve a thoughtless aware blissful state through meditation. I cannot turn into a strand of DNA rotating and realizing things I could never comprehend through meditation alone (at least in this lifetime with society and all ).


The rest of the questionable claims regarding your state of mind since and during your altered states are still only claims made by someone who has created a self system of authority.(That'd be you)

I have had many experiences, and all I am doing is speaking of the validity of personal experience. You are the one who is imposing your opinions and beliefs onto me.

Ok to set the record straight. Firstly I doubt if any of us have had one full enlightened hour between us, and since we can't define enlightenment then theres no real point arguing over it.

Secondly, no one is saying people MUST or NEED to take entheogens to find this enlightenment. Although I will defend this RIGHT to take entheogens.

Thirdly I think what annoys me the most about Joesus posts is simply the lack of personal experience. When I speak about my own experiences and I understand that everyone is different, that there are many paths. I only talk about my experiences because I believe there is something of value within them. I don't get the same open-heartness from Joesus and his posts, hence my defensiveness.

This kind of rhetorical and passively aggressive statement is why I retaliate. I didn't say I think these two things are mushrooms, only its been speculated and nothing can be ruled out UNLESS you were there when they named the damn things Soma and Manna. That would be difficult considering Manna has been translated as "What is it".

When a reasonable tone and open discussion returns to this thread, I may post again.

That is a real statement and it does have value. The value is in where you put your importance, and in this case you recognize defensiveness.

Everyone has experiences and as such they could translate into value but then if you value one over another then you become attached to yourself and your experience. Humans are a reflection of God. That I am presence or I am That is more synonymous with the free flowing potential than the identity of any one experience. In realizing ones own potential anytime you take a stand in any one point of identity you cease to be the potential as you identity with something other.
This is what enlightenment is, freedom from being locked within an identity that limits you from moving through experiences because you have not fully put a previous experience down.
This creates fear because memories leave us with ideas of what we don't want and don't want to be and then projecting our desires into what we do want to be by mixing what we liked into a collage of best guess realities.

In the idea that there are many paths to justify one choices there lacks the experience of Unity in creation and creator. If there is only one absolute which is beyond all experiences then all experiences will be eventually surrendered to that one absolute. In that reality there is only one path. The path of Self realization.
God does not have a face, and there are no amount of faces that make a God because God is beyond infinite by any definition. Humans being a reflection of God, put on many faces in a lifetime but their potential is not contained by the experiences nor the expressions that make up the space between birth and death.
As Such when someone says to themselves I have experienced God or my Ego less self they only experience a reflection of the Self or of God. This knowing is also the difference between enlightenment and the projection of enlightenment and this experience in all experiences is the reality of enlightened knowledge.

I've had my share of psychedelics: Mushrooms, PCP, Laboratory made LSD, Mescaline, Peyote, Opium, Heroin, too many over the counter pharmaceuticals to remember, Cocaine and 20 years of growing and smoking pot, but it does not make me an expert on the use of drugs because there is no such thing. Hell I don't even know some of the things I took to get high.

The point is I have come to experience the capability to rise above any chemically induced high naturally, easily and permanently.
To say this will not convince anyone as much as some wants to hear the story, and to use these stories as proof that reality is real is ridiculous.

When someone points to the truth it only is real when it is true for all.
Drugs do not create enlightenment and they do not give anyone an experience of enlightenment. Enlightenment is not an experience, it takes one beyond the experiences.


I have every confidence that you will change your present mood and give up any expectations to react emotionally again.


There is no peace in knowing anything because you will have to defend it against some one elses knowing either in peaceful arrogance or in the shutting out of all other experience and knowing to make your knowing the knowing.

I have every confidence you will rise above this illusion and personal stress.


But you are sure you have experienced being ego-less and states of no-mind..oh and also sensations of floating.
I had a sensation once...


It will come with the experience of transcending reality without the use of drugs and the experience of the mind and body in that state of consciousness. The experience of clarity of mind in daily living will amaze you.

Imagine if you were receptive enough to go beyond even the experience you have with psychedelics. Not only could you be open to more experiences but you might even be permanently unattached to any of them.

That day will come when you become unattached to your present beliefs.


Then tune into the experience you have without drugs and meditation for that is a part of yourself that you are trying to escape from because you believe this other experience is more a part of yourself than the one you have without meditation and drugs. In fact the meditation should allow you to do this but you don't seem to become aware of yourself because you are fantasizing about your altered states experiences.

The thoughtful blissful state in meditation is obviously not enough for you so you take a drug to have an experience. This attachment to experiences is the addiction created by the ego.
You still don't know what or who you are do you? If you did you would be less enthralled by the experiences you are having under the influence of psychoactive placebos.


As Dianah Said you are defending your personal experiences and that is the trap of the ego.
No one said you didn't have the experiences, no one says you can't have them. There is so much more to you than the identification you have with them and the limitations you place on how you have them.

Ok then Joesus, If "God" created everything biological, and there are so many interactions (read hallucinogens) that can break through an ego and show that every action has limitless potential, do you not feel that those substances, which may have been taken into the food chain, are important to our history? In other words, is there no value in hallucinogens?

The fact mystical experiences bubble up from these experiences, show me that "God" is abound in many places. Which brings us back to the topic. Is God in the magic mushroom?

Thank you.
It was such a good topic indeed. And when I read what they wrote I felt great sadness and decided to express my sadness by the most suitable words for this particular case.

True,

Although I do enjoy enjoy a good debate at times. As long as I can realize and recognize my defensiveness and provableness attachment and degradation should not be an issue. At least from my perspective :/

I would have to agree there.

Who is doing this? Like I said before, both meditation and psychedelics are very important. Both do different things. I told you that psychedelics would not work well for me if I did not integrate the experience with meditation. I am not implying that one has value over another, both are different things.




I don't believe you know what enlightenment is. The only way to know is to have experienced it, and I find this hard to believe. It has to do with distachment from the past, just because I can say this does not mean I know what enlightenment is. Distachment from the past is only a concept to me, it is not a total experience I am engaged in. So I do not have the right to claim this is what enlightenment is. Enlightenment is not a static definition, this confuses people and hinders growth.

God does not have a face, and there are no amount of faces that make a God because God is beyond infinite by any definition.




That is your interpretation. You do not know everyones experiences, quit assuming you do.




So have I. I have gone long periods of time abstaining from chemicals and it has been blissful. Does the fact that I can transcend entheogens make me too good for them? Just because I can transcend entheogens does not mean I should be pompous and tell myself I don't need them anymore and they do no good for me. And to tell others that they are wrong for using entheogens is just plain egocentric. We are all after different things in life, we are not all on your path. Just accept it.

I mean it's not like I do them every weekend. No no, not like that at all.




Because you know so deeply what enlightenment is, right?




I have lost attachment to my thought process, memory, sense of self, external world. There has been absolutely nothing, I was nobody. If this is not an ego-less state, then what is it? A thought process, a belief? Now it is only a memory of an experience, and I can realize that.




It does amaze me. Now are you going to tell me you experience more clarity then me?




Speak for yourself.




I can be in meditation and not have to meditate. I bet you didn't know that.




Keep trying to assume what I experience, it really isn't working. Your telling me I experience a "thoughtful blissful state" in meditation? How would you know what I experience? This is complete ignorance. You have no idea how attached to my experiences are through the words I convey and you cannot tell me I'm addicted. Assuming these things is a manifestation of the ego




And like I said, I can realize I am doing so. I am ultimately defending the right to take entheogens, like trojan mentioned. You on the other hand cannot realize how you are in denial.

One incorrectly nested quote or slash quote in a post and none of them will work. You should be able to go back and edit it for correctness.

thanks

First of all if the reactionary discipline is to identify with ones character and projected beliefs in reality according to the interpretations of the ego any experience is going to be returned to ego's box for subject value and interpretation.
While having an experience, any experience, if the ego and all its principles are intact and the mind has not accustomed itself to the reality of egolessness, comprehension is going to be limited because the mind will not be familiar with any relevant function of thought in the unfamiliar. Until the experience is over, the mind will not make any references to what has happened or what is happening unless it is dragging its projections of belief with it which have been created prior to the experience.
The natural tendency to return all experiences to home base is relevant to any level of consciousness.
Home base is either based on experience of identities created from the past or in the case of the enlightened, the unmanifest, which is beyond all experience and identification.

Value is relative to the experience of awareness, and if the awareness is the identification with external manifestations, then they are going to change according to the experiences. IF the awareness is the unmanifest there is no change, and value would automatically be given to the expansion of awareness or the depth of the unmanifest in experience rather than the experience and any of its qualities.


God is in everything, which is why it is unnecessary to look to one experience over another, or to external manipulation to create a certain type of experience to call God.
God is more mundane than special, but the ego would like God to be mystical and fantastic in experience.



Of course you don't believe it, and as such you will defend your beliefs and put all interpretations of your experiences in the box of beliefs. This will inhibit you from accepting anything that does not fit in your box and at the same time give you all the reason to defend what you do believe so you have some point of reference to identify reality and yourself.


But you do believe you have the right to tell someone else that they do not know either, based on your own inability to recognize enlightenment.
This just comes from fear of being less or knowing less than you could or should.
That is only a quality not a prerequisite.


This is not just my interpretation or experience. There is no experience that can contain God. The Egoless Self is God and it cannot be contained in an experience either. This is just reality.


No I don't have to tell you that, you wouldn't really accept that anyone could experience anything more clear than you, or that you could get any clearer.


The issue is not whether you are better than them it is whether you identify yourself with them at all. Your previous posts stated that you could not get the experiences of combining meditation and mushrooms by meditation alone. Now you say you can.

Not a problem I can accept that you just like getting high. That is what I figured in the first place. It was all the "I am more enlightened by taking drugs" crap that I was addressing.
No not a thought process, because you couldn't think it is an unconscious state of mind. The egoless state of awareness is not devoid of Self awareness, the ability to think, or remember.
A person would be a vegetable in the state of mind you describe and unable to function in this world. Does this function-less state of mind sound like enlightenment to you?


Of course you can but you aren't all the time are you.


I said you were making excuses for taking psychedelics and you denied it before.
The question I have now is why would you find the need to defend the right? Why would you draw to yourself anything that would cause you to defend your choices? Are you a victim?

How do you know how much I identify myself with them in everyday life? You seem pretty identified with your thought-process if you ask me




You claim to be this know-it-all guru of everything, you have the power to tell me I'm heading in the wrong direction, yet you can't even read right? Give me a break.




Once again you assume my intentions. Not a good sign


I have lost attachment to my thought process, memory, sense of self, external world. There has been absolutely nothing, I was nobody. If this is not an ego-less state, then what is it? A thought process, a belief?

If this was an unconscious state of mind then why was I conscious. There was an "I" but no "me". Starting to get it now?

You obviously have never heard of Meher Baba or Osho's experiences with ego-death, or any other satguru for that matter. Satgurus speak of ego-death as a required experience on the path to actual enlightenment/self-realization. Of course it is not a permanent experience, get the static out of your head.

The egoless state of awareness is not devoid of Self awareness, the ability to think, or remember.

Meher Baba wouldn't say so.


I can be in meditation and not have to meditate.


Never claimed I was. These childish comebacks don't tell me much about tyou.




Because they have been powerful tools for understanding and realization in my experience. Not everybody who uses entheogens can tap into the healing energies they contain, this goes for you too.




Once again, speak for yourself.


Also, you can stop ranting and preaching. I already understand everything you say there is no need

All that text and little content, again. Answer YES OR NO please, without your incessant esoteric walls of text.



Your actually saying that its the Ego that makes spontaneous spiritual rebirth a special experience. I always thought the experience feels special because it is. This is how we can identify the experience, isn't it? Can you honestly say you can appreciate anything without using the Ego to weigh up an experience against all the others in memory? I doubt it. Again I feel you've deflected the question rather than answer honestly.