Exactly, God is still waiting for you.

But then why get upset if others speak of their opinions? You seem heavily invested in your opinion, even to the extent of trying to have me banned from the forum.
I have to ask: Do you think I speak on behalf of God or just from my own opinion?

Absolutely. That is how I have removed myself of any investment of opinion and surrendered to God.

I speak on your behalf also. Just as you speak on my behalf.

Because if God needed something, God would be like you, without a dishwasher. And being a God without a dishwasher doesn't seem much like a very powerful God.

Absolutely. We are all made in God's image. That doesn't exclude anyone.

Hey Hey left the forum because of you Jisi, I left for a long time Brain Meta too. You very negatively affect Brain Meta forum. That is my opinion.

>I speak on your behalf also. Just as you speak on my behalf. !

Ohhhhhh...

>Because if God needed something, God would be like you, without a dishwasher. And being a God without a dishwasher doesn't seem much like a very powerful God.

...

You give me great power over this forum. That'd be your choice.
Hey Hey obviously felt he had no choice but to leave. C'est la vie

>You give me great power over this forum. That'd be your choice.
>Hey Hey obviously felt he had no choice but to leave. C'est la vie

How interesting.

>You give me great power over this forum. That'd be your choice.

Who am I Joesus to give you great power over Brain Meta? Tell me.

The creator of your universe/opinion(s)


Something to think about.
If you aren't the creator of your universe and instead a victim to some God outside of yourself, then Obviously some God created everything that you are experiencing and for a reason, or circumstance and chaos just makes it suck to be you.
In that you would have to find a point of surrender. But then if you don't experience God, God would not be the point of surrender but instead you would be trying to surrender to being a victim to God unknown, or circumstances out of your control.
Wouldn't it be more empowering to shift your awareness to something greater than your opinions when they are driven by childish feelings or fear of being bashed about by chaotic and haphazard circumstances?

If you could in your present reality make different choices to experience life as you see it what would you do?
(By the way that doesn't include vaporizing anything or anyone in your field of experience that you happen to disagree with. That was the extent of senility that took place in the Mahabharata war and the near extinction of humanity and the planet some 20,000 years ago.)

Well, now your point is clear Joesus.
___________

So I return the point to the Magic Mushrooms topic and to the chain of interesting coincidences related with Mr. Inrda, Mr. Osiris and other interesting ladies and gentlemen which I meticulously numbered in my previous posts in this section.

As you all remember I am suggesting to start political talks concerning the situation we are now in. In case if the parties in power shall discard this humble opinion of mine, then I guess that situation will undergo unprecedented metamorphoses in the history of mankind.

That is my prognosis.

That is all.

Hi Enki,

(note that reply is not working for me now; you have upset Opera by installing it incorrectly!)

Why do you wish to talk about politics?

In at least one way, it is no different to religion.

One group of people try to make another (much larger) group believe stories rather than the truth.
They hide the truth so that they can assume power and authority and feel good.
They do anything they can to deride anybody who talks against them.

Hallow Rhymer, I installed Opera correctly, the Reply button does not work. I guess I know why it does not work. There are two clues of this morbid game. I have great patience.

I think the Magic Mashrooms matter becomes a political issue. I explained why. Too many people are using it. Dangerous 'random' percolations are possible. Things become unstable. I would never bring the examples with Mr. Indra and Mr. Osiris and the countries' names if not the situation, just to show that the opinion comes from important host.

If no one wants some forces to apply Draconian methods of extinguishing instability the Political Talks are needed. That is just my opinion. If some think that they can ignore me and the opinion of mine it is their choice. But then I do hope they will not complain if things start to develop via very strange and absolutely unpredictable ways.

The truth is very complicated, we cannot tell it to all around. Can you imagine what will happen?!!!

Some of them hide something what they consider to be the truth to keep the power, but I think those who have the power know the partial truth, otherwise they would not be such self-assured bastards ... One can have great power but not wisdom and rush with that power into very dangerous situation. The 'Gods' of Pantheon have diversified intellectual abilities, some of them are powerful but not smart enough. They want democracy which they can turn into disorder due to unreasonable application of too great power.

They can do quite many things in any part of this planet but to some certain extent. But when the stability of the entire world is questioned the Political Talks need to be started. I consider it as an obligation of mine to deliver wise warning.

I have been very calmly sleeping in my far away country, and actually would continue to sleep to the end of this my life and nobody would note that, but eventually something happened, someone started to play a forbidden game with me and things changed.

The trawlers, trippers, navigators who chase for channels in time and space must know that all in the worlds must be ordered. And if things continue in this way, then I think that the coming New World Order will surprise all of them, even those whose Brotherhoods have coined that term.
Those Jumpings in Time and Space question the stability of the entire civilization. They are opening dangerous doors and gates, there is no order and rules. That must be regulated.

No one on this planet who has real power can ignore the new situation.

I can be wrong, but I find it important to talk about that.

If your suspicions are correct should we not need to discuss them in whispers for fear of tickling the Dragon?
Perhaps we need a code?

I am now using Firefox and all works very very well.
Keep this quiet or they will butcher Firefox too!

Firefox does not work too, maybe I should use Firedragons?

So Rhymer,

As I plan to show up to a doctor, let me bring you a funny example as a special addition; hope you like science fiction. I am sure that the example will be quite amazing for many Englishmen as well. I got the news about this interesting coincidence from one old friend of mine.

As you know the Al Quaeda conducted one of its very pro-aggressive acts in London on 07/July/2005.

At the same time on 07 July 1941 the German propaganda published interesting, NOT AVERAGED data on Russian losses in Planes and Tanks, here are those numbers:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...90164-2,00.html
" But it claimed to have put 4,107 Russian planes out of action, to have destroyed or captured 2,233 tanks"

Certainly those not averaged numbers can be trifles, but at the same time those very numbers can mean something certain for some certain people in our time period. Certainly it will be a great exaggeration of whirly fantasy to imagine that it is a message of Nazi Ananerbe (Tule Order) from past to the future. But if those numbers mean something certain, then the fantasy should not be discarded. That is something about funny secret codes.

Besides that if to remember that the Nazi Crystal Night at Hitler's times took place on 9 November (11/9) and it numerically is a symmetric mirror of New York city's WTC tragedy date 11 September (9/11), so even then that fantasy with Ananerbe should be considered as a part of the chain of coincidences.

And if a person with vast imagination will merge those facts with ideas expressed in interesting Japanese Cartoon Hellsing 4 (find English translation and view it, I do strongly recommend):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-JqmLRwLE0 (interesting images),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellsing
(Hellsing Ultimate is a Japanese OVA series that is more closely based on the Hellsing manga series. It is being produced by animation studio Satelight and Geneon and currently runs 4 episodes),

then eventually he/she may imagine that Jumpers can jump not only in space, but in the TIME as well, and that person may arrive to strange ideas about Time machines made of Magic Mushrooms... But we all know that it is all fantasy. Because it is hard to imagine an Illuminated time traveling Third Reich fighting with England and US even now through time and space.

And in that context the unfortunate events with Lady Diana may start to look quite, quite, quite differently if one day William and Harry shall follow fantastic clues to uncover the real ground of those strange events.

So coming back to my funny examples with Mr. Indra, Mr. Osiris and the countries' names I once again should mention that we need serious Political Talks concerning the Magic Mushrooms and the travels to be started.

>If your suspicions are correct should we not need to discuss them in whispers for fear of tickling the Dragon?

I think Mr. Dragon ian devil should already woke up, as Mr. Lame Saint was terrifically disturbed.

No it isn't it is semi-synthetic derived from the ergot fungus. The synthetic nature of a substance also has little to do with the experience a drug can give you. I find marijuana to be more comparable to LSD than Mushrooms and yet one is natural and other semi-synthetic. I think that opinions on these drugs should be limited to people that have taken them and experienced their true effects. To respond to another post made, anti-depressant effects are incomparable to any sort of entheogenic experience. Tryptophan in bananas affect serotonin too but that doesn't mean that eating a banana is a spiritual experience in this context... unless youre already schizophrenic perhaps.

Excellent example with Banana Shaun, indeed.

Now some Interesting questions to all who care to consider (please note that the first question A is a funny one, and please pay special attention to question C):

A) Halloween-Pumkin Seeds-Tryptophan- Serotonin-..???..-Magic Mashrooms are they related?
How Tryptophan and Serotonin interact Psilocybin in body?
C) What being eaten can somehow generate Psilocybin in human body?

Some ongoing information.
1). One gram of pumpkin seed protein contains as much tryptophan as a full glass of milk.
http://www.whitbymentalhealthcentre.ca/newsOct15.htm
New Study Demonstrates Treatment of Anxiety Disorders using Pumpkin Seed, October 15th, 2007,

2). Serotonin (a neurotransmitter), synthesized via tryptophan hydroxylase
a) Fernstrom JD (1983). "Role of precursor availability in control of monoamine biosynthesis in brain". Physiol. Rev. 63 (2): 484–546. PMID 6132421.
Schaechter JD, Wurtman RJ (1990). "Serotonin release varies with brain tryptophan levels". Brain Res. 532 (1-2): 203–10. doi:10.1016/0006-8993(90)91761-5. PMID 1704290.

3). Serotonin is also found in many mushrooms and plants, including fruits and vegetables.

Whitby, Ontario – A new study released in the Canadian Journal of Physiology and Pharmacology suggests that a Functional Food made primarily of pumpkin seeds could be an efficacious treatment for anxiety disorders. Although pumpkin seeds are commonly used for both decorative and cooking purposes at this time of year, this recent study out of the Whitby Mental Health Centre suggests that pumpkin seeds may be combined with other ingredients to provide much more than nutritional value.

The study, entitled “Protein-Source Tryptophan as an Efficacious Treatment for Social Anxiety Disorder�, describes that gourd seeds contain the highest concentration of tryptophan, the same amino acid found in milk and turkey, but at much higher levels. One single gram of pumpkin seed protein contains as much tryptophan as a full glass of milk. In this study, subjects suffering from Social Anxiety Disorder were significantly less anxious when asked to speak in front of others one hour after eating the Functional Food rich in tryptophan in comparison to placebo. This finding demonstrates that tryptophan does more than induce sleep. In high light conditions, it is quickly converted to serotonin, which significantly reduces daytime anxiety levels.

Dr. Hudson, a Medical Director at Whitby Mental Health Centre and lead investigator of the study, has previously published studies demonstrating the potential benefits of tryptophan found in food over pharmaceutical equivalents. He is a firm believer that we can address common problems of anxiety and insomnia by changes to diet and behaviour. This most recent study is a follow-up to another study of the treatment of insomnia with tryptophan rich foods.

Chemistry is an interesting science. One always can very easily draft an interesting diet.

Now something funny from youtube: DMT the Spirit Molecule Tryptamine of Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIWKmlvtzBQ&feature=related

I guess all world religions shall face devastating catastrophe in 21 Century as it looks like that all Holy writings they have, are written under influence of Hallucinogens.

Thus, under this new circumstances it is highly important to separate the reality from illusions.

It turns that people can be predominantly divided onto two categories: (i) those who ate something and can see something under daily light and (ii) ordinary people. I mean those who Eat from the Tree and those who do not. Those who do not looks like are considered as a Herd (second rate creatures) by those who did and practice intensive mediations intermingled with DMT and acoustic sounds gaining new extraordinary abilities of traveling in space in Out of Body Experiance State. Certainly it may turn so, that those Jumpers can significantly influence the political life in world scale (what if they can Jump into Presidents??? and control them on distance???).

Actually we have absolutely different types of human species and from Political Point of view we have definite separation in motivations and in cultural values all around the world. So we have very serious Disorder and Inequality. That is why it is needed to establish some New Order overcoming that inequality.

As any peasant eating and smoking something containing DMT in ANY PART OF THE WORLD can trip-Jump in space and mentally influence the governments, can damage critical infrastructure, remotely control important people thus causing serious catastrophes (e.g. inclining Chernobyl Atomic Station's operator to make 5 mistakes one after another only to make the realization of crazy prophesies true), then the security of the entire Civilization is in great Danger. And what happened on 11 September 2001 is a brilliant exemplification of that specific phenomena. Who knows, maybe Al Quaeda cells communicate with each other wirelessly using some DMT or similar drugs following the old traditions of Assassin Orders.

In view of that maybe we need to establish some sort of World Government which should suppress that DMT Terrorism on Planetary Scale.

I guess the Upper Creature, if they do exist, should openly participate in formation of the World Government: The Republic of People under the spiritual guidance of the Republic of Heavens and other Spheres.

Now the Reply button works in this section too!!! Great!

Enki, As my mother once told me, "everything should be consumed in moderation". You sir have consumed a little too much.

Maybe you should step away from the drugs for a while, take a break, come back to reality, because as it stands it really seems like you should be spending some time in a rubber room.

I respect the fact that you are trying to present a different perspective regarding magic mushrooms, but........I have news for you......God is not in the magic mushrooms. The only thing in the magic mushrooms is intoxication, loss of ego, and ultimately, insanity. Nothing more nothing less.

Yes, I have tried mushrooms, LSD, weed, etc. etc. God is in clarity of thought and a sincere heart.

Loss of ego is not a byproduct of taking mushrooms. It sometimes seems that way in the trip, but that is only because the mind is yanked from the complacency of sensory orientation to what the mind calls normal, and that is only temporary.

What the mind calls normal is the result of 10's of thousands of years of evolution. Certainly are perception of reality may be enhanced with small controlled quantities of hallucenogens, but over indulgence can cause permanent chemical brain imbalance.

It can be quite dangerous when we attempt to play god by manipulating our bodies.

Perceptions of reality can be enhanced by being afflicted with cancer but not everyone wants that kind of enhanced experience of reality.
Small injections of altered states of consciousness do not add up to greater awareness, nor does living to a ripe old age and accumulating hundreds of thousands of experiences.
Intelligence is not exactly a measure of quality when it is measured by experience and they (the experiences) do not permanently expand conscious awareness of what exists to expose and separate the illusions from what we call reality.

Thank you for your comments.

0. I do not take any such drug, never used Magic Mushrooms or any other type of similar chemical. Surprise? I am just an Enki.
1. I should mention that I never said that God is in the magic mushrooms. Possibly the magic mushrooms somehow assess, in some way, the communication with some entities whose/which nature should be/is an object of intensive scientific investigations.
2. Attached to this message please find very interesting scientific paper with many references of Prof. Benny Shanon: (to see attachment click here http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?act=A...ype=post&id=746 ) on the subject which at the first time accentuates at very specific topics related with God - humans relations. Hope one day Jewish gov. shall reconsider its negative aptitude towards Prof. Benny Shanon’s inquiries and shall look at things from new angle of the reality trusting the Wisdom of God.
3. I collected and represented above some very specific peculiarities concerning the subject as I find it extremely important at this historic period of time to draw attention of many Brain Meta researchers at this very particular point. I am sure that there is a very great treasure hidden in the subject.
4. I do agree with you that God is in clarity of thought and a sincere heart. I can add a lot of more about our God, but I do not want to enter into endless discussions with one gentlemen here.

Btw, when you tasted LSD have you seen some sort of fishy creatures looking out from human body or noted shape changing in humans face, esp eye movements? Can you describe to us that phenomenon in few words please?

Bests,
Enki

These are sensory distortions produced by direct effects of the drug on the visual system. To me the distortions make people look like Goblins. Overly elongated necks with silly looking heads and funny humanoid type sounds emanating from their mouths with ever constant fluctuations of body proportions and spatial estimations. I s'pose you could say things looked like they were underwater. The high dose LSD trip was very similar to the mushroom trip with respect to these sensory distortions.

Seeing as I've stayed out of this conversation for so long I thought I'd comment.

To me the usefulness of psychedelics has been mostly to see how the mind dissociates/splits and distorts its regular functions and then how these are reintegrated back together upon cessation of drug effects. Sobriety is much closer to any kind of 'spiritual' goal than pure psychedelic intoxication, yet the reintegration of the distorted mind can lead to an increased appreciation of the 'insights' gained and greater appreciation for the mind that works cohesively. Importantly, when people have a really good/bad/bizarre/strange/disorienting/adventurous/different time and not of the usual perception, it affects them in ways which lead to questions, appreciation, spirituality, ideas etc. So I'm not surprised it leads people towards 'god', although to say it is 'god' is delusion.

They are simply a way to give your mind a shake up and break out of those robot behaviours that dull our minds. The fate of our world is in our hands, and we are still in early infancy when it comes to understanding our behaviours. We should not have thrown hallucinogens in the 'banned' room so quickly. There is no direct risk of death due to the common hallucinogens, no risk from physical addiction, and extremely low risk from psychological addiction due to the fear factor in these chemicals. Its crazy not to try and gain insight from the experiences of hallucinogens, after all you cant work out a complex sealed machine without taking it apart and seeing whats under the bonnet.

To me the mind is a splinter from the God Conciousness, so the mushroom is one key to that conciousness. It affects the very thing that has created the concept of 'God', the thing which is 'self'. I believe many non-religious would become spiritually inclined from a single dose of a safe hallucinogen. Whether thats desirable or not is another matter, but it clearly shows that the mind itself is responsible for spiritual experience, not visiting angels or words of God. If these states are not recognised as valid, then it calls into question all religious texts the world over.

Another way is to gain spiritual insight is to "Wake up!" from the day dream most people are under, woven to protect them from the reality of everyday life. Either way, we're like those children in the Chronicles of Narnia, except we're sitting outside the wardrobe terrified of whats through the door. That would make a rubbish film now wouldn't it!

I suppose the resulting question is one of faith and courage. Would you like to take a walk round the inside of your head, or do you have some scary skeletons in there?

I am highly doubtful that drugs can produce mystical experiences, enlightenment or knowledgment of God. Research has been done on this (reference TASTE).

That would probably be because drugs don't produce mystical experiences, enlightenment, or knowledge of God.

The older I get, the more I realize how little I actually know.

That is what allows intuition to bring you closer to truth rather than confusion.

But mystical experiences are caused by natural and temporary alterations in the balance of chemicals in the brain. How can you say that drugs dont produce mystical experiences? Are you seriously saying they are given to us from a higher power and have nothing to do with the bodies chemistry?



I made those statements with my own intuition and experience, as have many others before me. I think you've made a statement that is complete horse radish just to deny my own statements. Very open and enlightened...

Scientific research has demonstrated the supremacy of the mind.
One of the earliest and most interesting studies was performed on some rabbits at Ohio University in the seventies. The scientists were attempting to prove the relationship between a toxic, high cholesterol diet and hardening of the arteries. They thought that if they fed the rabbits' high cholesterol food, they should logically develop high blood pressure, hardening of the arteries and the other symptoms we have learned to associate with heart disease, which is still the largest killer in the Western world.
The experiment was going along very well, with most of the bunnies developing the expected symptoms, except for one group of rabbits that were not having the expected results. The scientists just couldn't understand it -- they were feeding the rabbits in this group the same high cholesterol food, but the rabbits just weren't developing any of the predicted symptoms. No high blood pressure. No hardening of the arteries. No hypertension. Nothing.
Fortunately for the study, and unfortunately for the rabbits, the technician who was feeding that particular group of rabbits fell ill. Almost immediately, her rabbits started developing the expected symptoms!
Naturally the scientists were curious as to why and asked her what she had done differently. "Why nothing," she said, "I fed the rabbits the food as you told me to. I took them out of their cages, held them, stroked them, and sang to them, fed them. Wasn't this right?"
It was the same food, but the rabbits' minds turned the high cholesterol food into other channels, which protected their health! The scientists were amazed. They thought they were studying hardening of the arteries; they were really studying the effects of love. They tried this over and over again and found that rabbits that were loved simply wouldn't fall ill as readily. Isn't this amazing? And this was just rabbits, not even people! How can love change the effect of food? So the moral is: if you're going to eat Big Macs, sit on your boyfriend's lap while you're eating it.

We do exactly the same thing. Our minds control our bodies. You've probably heard of the placebo effect? 30% of patients can be given a chalk tablet and told that they will get well and they do get well. There is also a nocebo effect. A physician tells a patient, "I'm very sorry to tell you, Mrs. Jones, but your breast cancer has metastasized throughout your internal organs; you'll be dead in six weeks." If Mrs. Jones believes her doctor, her body will respond and kill her.
For decades, surgeons assumed that if you were unconscious during surgery, it didn't matter what was said in the operating room. But it was found that what is said affects the likelihood of recovery! If they open you up and say, "Oh, look at that, it's worse than we thought -- " then your chance of recovery goes way down. The more positive the surgeon's remarks, the greater the chance of recovery. The power of the mind is awesome.
In a study of four hundred spontaneous remissions of cancer interpreted by Elmer and Alyce Green of the Menninger Clinic there was only one factor in common -- every person changed his or her attitude before the remission occurred, fundamentally changed his or her way of thinking, became more hopeful, courageous, positive. They somehow broke through the collective consciousness, through their self-destructive beliefs and programs and changed their minds on a fundamental level, deep inside. And so they were "miraculously" cured.
The collective belief system extends deeply into our minds. Did you know that our society has even given us a standard time to die? I'm not kidding! There is a day and a time when it is more likely you will die than any other? Do you know when that is? 9 AM on Monday morning. Why is that? It just seems easier to die than face another week of this horrible job! This is a truly remarkable achievement of our species. Presumably no other species recognizes which day Monday is. The power of the mind is everything.
Some scientists at the University of Miami a few years ago heard of the rabbit study in Ohio and decided to do an experiment to see if this effect might also hold true for humans. They decided to do a study on preemies -- premature babies -- because in intensive care, they are very expensive and the rate of survival is not that high. What are we, seventeenth in the world for infant mortality? Not so hot. So three times a day for fifteen minutes, wearing rubber gloves, the technicians stroked the tiny babies inside their intensive care units. They didn't call it "stroking," of course; they called it "tactile kinesthetic stimulation," which is the Orwellian term for stroking. God forbid we should call it love!....

You once made a comment that Love makes the world go round... But to know love and to unite with it takes a certain degree of evolutionary development. I wouldn't disagree that there are chemical changes in the body that take place in higher states of consciousness. Two of the molecules that are developed in the body in higher states of consciousness are Soma and Ojas. Soma is called the glue of the universe and bonds subtle psychic awareness of the absolute to the senses and Ojas is like a super-lubricant and cell regenerative. But certain things have to take place within the psyche and the nervous system to support the conditions before the body will produce these chemicals.
Synthesizing chemical additives and pouring them into the nervous system that is not going to make proper use of them only creates a mixture of delusion. Random drug use such as recreational exploration mixing the chemical makeup of the human nervous system to create a mystical experience is a billion to one shot that one might find something close to what the human body can produce in perfect proportion to psychic and physical development.
If you think science or someone who is recreationally adding chemical coctails to their nervous system has now the power to chemically create love to replace their lack of it, I'd be surprised.
In my own experience of Psychic discovery and years of drug experimentation, I can tell you there is a difference. Drugs produce altered states of consciousness. They do not transform the mind from ignorance to wisdom, nor do they replace the evolution of awareness.
IF someone was to accidently crack the veil of separation that is the illusion of ego from the nervous system it takes time to begin to understand the world beyond separation of ego and suffering of mental delusions.
Even those who are born enlightened have done the work in another lifetime.

I think if you are going to be a fragment of God you will have to give yourself more credit for being a creator of your world than being a victim to random chemical influences. To discover what Love is and to wield the power of love would be enlightening don'tcha think?
There have been many attempts to achieve enlightenment and immortality artificially in the alternate timelines and universes but none of them have worked, because there is an order to the universe that cannot be subverted.


Thinking and thinking about intuition often create confusion, especially if your intuition is invaded by evil forces.
I think it would be good to remind you of your own words.
To realize God and mind as one, the ego has to concede its isolation and defensiveness in the ownership of truth to something much greater than the personal.

This is complete speculation, and although I can see the metaphysical value of what you're saying, it doesn't make it correct.

Humanity does not need additional chemicals to enter into delusion. Our whole world is built on delusions and illusions. So I simply can't agree with what your saying. Everything we eat, whether immediately active or not, alters our body chemistry, possibly to the point of spiritual awakening (fasting, meditative practices etc.). Also, what is often felt as a natural spiritual awakening is almost certainly a case of psychosis! Whether that person is treated for it or not depends entirely on the demeanour of the individual - are they a danger?

You can explain what you experienced and how it felt like a difference, but you are unable to give an answer for all humanity because your experience is subjective and the feelings of anything other than normality, natural or otherwise, is also a delusion.

Selectively saying all is one and categories, creeds and names are all illusions of human creation is one thing. Using those same names and categorising to put chemically induced mystical experience into a different box from a psychosis induced experience - just undermimes your whole stance.

Based on your own words
I'm going to make the assumption that either you're claiming the authority that can make this rationalization for all of humanity, or that you are under the influence of delusion and are speaking under the influence.
In any case it doesn't change anything, you just placed yourself in the same category as you have me.

Like I said drugs don't produce mystical experiences, enlightenment, or knowledge of God.

I can say what is real for me just as anyone can. What bothers most people, is they want to stay in their delusions of isolation rather than even assume there is something different that can be achieved. Then even if they assume there is something different, the level of trust for the ego is so far removed from reality that most will never accept that anyone else could if it threatens the complacency of their idleness in the deluded state.

Everyone wants to rule the world.

That would be your opinion and you are welcome to it. But then you believe the world is living in a delusion, so any idea to the contrary of what I have said without establishing a universal authority just relegates all authority to mindlessness.
That might be your choice but not mine. I know perfect order, and understand chaos.
Illusions may be an affliction of the ego but it is not all there is. I give more credit to the human race than to relegate all experiences and the future of humanity to delusion.
Those who have made that discovery are only pulled into the realm of delusion by those who refuse to give theirs up, less they judge their choices and themselves any more than they already do.

I put more emphasis on the delusions and illusions of humanity to spin my post in the exact same way you do.

Almost everytime you state that a spiritual experience brought about by chemicals is not valid, you use the word delusion.



Lol, seriously Joe, its funny listening to you tear down your own statements. If anyone doesn't agree with your view point, they're deluded. Yet when I say life is an illusion, you say I must be claiming authority on the matter for all humanity.

Lets take a look:
Time is an illusion of humanity. Our experience is subjective and often completely different from reality due to our bias of self preservation and our personal mind tricks. Stereotyping and copy cats. People blindly believing things, accepting things as truth when they're clearly not true (water into wine, walking on water, the intergalactic Xenu etc.). We build our lives on lies we've been told or told ourselves. My examples dont even touch the sides of the illusions we surround ourselves in.

Really? How exactly do you know perfect order? If you know perfect order, why don't you know perfect chaos? Whose the authority on things now...

YOU IGNORED ALL MY POINTS!

Joes stance - summary:
Spiritual experiences induced by chemicals are a delusion.
"drugs don't produce mystical experiences, enlightenment, or knowledge of God."

T_Ls stance - summary:
All spiritual experiences are induced by chemicals, whether they are chemicals inside the body or external.

Either all spiritual experiences are valid, or none are.

I played devils advocate and said ALL SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES are a delusion, and if drugs are not used, then the person must have an imbalance of chemicals and therefore be in a state of psychosis.

As expected you ignored the direction of the debate because you had no answers. Haha, amusing for someone who knows 'perfect order'.

You only post in this topic to be the final word on the matter, its nothing more than a soapbox for your incomplete circular hypocritical preaching. I can take good things from some of your posts, but you consistently refuse to stay within the debates natural flow.

But I'm not spinning anything.

If I do it is to exemplify the reality that chemically induced experiences are not spiritual, the are chemical.

I never said anyone who disagrees with me is deluded. That would be a delusion. That was a bit of sarcasm since you accuse me of making claim to being enlightened and the authority whenever I state the obvious.

You are giving examples of the ego. I'm following you...

1. Perfect order and Chaos are the same thing, they are both created from the same source, they only appear different to the ego because the ego does not know perfect order, only chaos.
2. The authority is consciousness itself.... The creator of perfect order.



I addressed the point, I didn't ignore it.


All spiritual experiences are valid. Not all experiences are spiritual...That should be obvious


I had no reason to respond to such a statement with an argument. Actually I don't find it necessary to argue about anything. Life has so much more to offer than arguments, I like to look at life as an opportunity. I find that to be in perfect order.


I would never ....

It would be ridiculous for anyone to assume their word is final, even more ridiculous to accuse one of having a final word on anything. Now your just being silly!

In the context of a forum, the final word is the last post of an old thread. Whether this thread becomes old is another matter.

Forgetting all the pointless chat above, why is the fact that a drug can facilitate (word chosen carefully) a spiritual experience so threatening?

Its not a new phenomenon, but you say its a false experience. Does the fact spiritual experience comes down to chemistry actually undermime some belief or other?

I simply don't understand your reasoning for :
Spirituality is a personal thing, you CANNOT tell someone their experience wasn't a true spiritual experience. Doing so just makes a mockery of all things spiritual, and makes a statement that your personal experience with spiritual experiences are the truth and everyone else who arrives at the same point using other methods is somehow false. This is my point, to say this is arrogant and extremely hostile to basic human rights. You're calling a LOT of peoples spiritual awakenings false, including a few major historical figures.


Explain to me why there is a difference?

If a totally unreligious person takes acid or whatever, and has a spiritual experience, why is this not valid? Its created a spiritual awakening in that person, it has to be valid (or as valid) as someone fasting or meditating til they begin to see angels, demons and visions of lust etc. Spontaneous and natural spiritual experiences can often be misconstrued as going insane. They can actually feel like psychosis, and be extremely scary to someone who is not familiar with any of these states. If the person isn't open to the experience, does that make it invalid too?

Explain to you the difference...
To those that will insist God is the imagination, created of brain chemistry, will never know themselves outside of the human body. Will never experience themselves as consciousness living in and beyond the physical with memory and awareness that spans more than one lifetime in one body.

The experience of God spans all bodily conditions, body functions, moods and states of consciousness. Just as a Tree exists in the Seed, it is the essence of man and throughout every age in every man there has been the awareness of this essence. Every religion follows the events of mans awakening to it. Every philosophy follows the potential of God in the universe to cross boundaries set by the beliefs created by the ego.
Drugs do not create spiritual experiences for the experience of God lies dormant in those who sleep and chemicals sometimes shock the nervous system from its deep psychological complacency in ignorance of ones own reality. Drugs or chemical conditions that are self induced can short the egoic circuits but it does not give one wisdom, knowledge or familiarity of God any more than setting a child in a car makes them familiar with the workings of a car or gives them the ability to drive a car. Drugs do not make God.

The best the mind can do is point to a direction in belief that they have experienced God with drugs but if they are not familiar with God it is just a projection of the basic dream of the human which is union with that which it came from.

Spirituality is a living connection of the physical to the absolute, it is not a feeling because it goes beyond all feelings, it is not an experience because it lives in all experiences. When one has an experience then stands back and says that was a spiritual experience he or she has denied themselves of their own heritage for the illusion of one brief image boxed into belief and idealism. Often the psyche which is addicted to experience and the identification of experience looks to have more experiences and thinks having experience of God is the proof of God but all they are doing is focusing on the experience and failing to notice what underlies the experience, even the ones they don't call god experiences.

God is not a condition of evolution and brain chemistry for God has been realized by man even before recorded history and the discovery and formulations of human evolution and Neuroscience.


Awakenings are not a condition of coming awake and falling asleep again, they are awakenings where the presence of God remains in all experiences from that moment on. They are not an "I had and experience and now its not there anymore," that is more a state of dreaming on the edge of sleep.

The term born again is to become permanently aware of spirit that is immortal, the foundation of humanity which lasts longer than a lifetime and endures the illusions of time.

Being Open is also a relative condition. If one has an experience that feels other than what they expected and reacts how open is open? A little open, thinking about being open or wide open without any conditions.

I've known hundreds of people who have told me they are open to God. They were waiting for God to come show them proof! This is a state of challenge rather than openness. One lady in particular stood an open chamber of the Great Pyramid and opened her arms facing upwards and said "Give it all to me God, I'm open to see and experience it all!" The first experience that didn't agree with her and she ran away screaming.

In the context of reality this thread will endure for lifetimes in the living reality of human being. There is never an end to this subject, only ego wants to have the final word and to close and contain God in a box so that it can pretend there is finality to being and reality, and to justify death.

A whole lot of space and time could be saved by defining terms. The words, religious, spiritual, mystical, transcendent, etc. mean different things to different people. They can even mean different things to the same people, depending on conditioins. Once a definition is set, for the purposes of a particular thread, or discussion, then reasonable people can present reasonable ideas and come to reasonable conclusions.

Good point Ole Meth, but this highlights a point I made earlier about all experience being subjective. Just because you 'Think' you've had a real-I-am experience with the Godhead, does not make it so. In fact anyone can point to anyone else and deny their experiences. What I'm saying is all experiences are valid, if you felt anything remotely awe inspiring/spiritual/mystical/religious, who am I or anyone else to deny it.



Thank you for the valiant attempt at defending your stance, you bring up valid points about awakenings etc. You do talk about God as if you actually KNOW what this God is your talking about. This is the same folly humanity keeps falling into. The only real truth is, if their is a God then its the reason for the Universe. Nothing else can really be said.

All spiritual wisdom is emotional intuition and philosophical thought processes only, and although valuable, has little to do with anything other than poetry.

I never said God is in drugs or that im trying to classify god as anything. If you re-read your post you'll see that you've not really addressed why drugs lead to these experiences, and what that actually says about the experience of God!

I said that religious/spiritual experiences facilitated by drugs are just as valid as any naturally occurring spiritual experience. Your post does not address this, it simply bangs on about how God can't be put in a box, and God isn't in drugs. I agree with both those statements, but they do nothing to answer my question, and in fact detract from the points.

Please don't muddy the water, its difficult to see the fish I'm pointing out

No defense was intended, this is an issue that can not be contained or defended, only realized.

There is no truth in the statement "if there is a God." Which is why enough can't be said about IF's, and why humanity continues..


Very poetic but you have it backwards. Clarity, emotions, philosophical reflection and poetry exist because of Spirituallty.

I know what you said.

I never said God wasn't in Drugs, you seem to be sidetracked by your insistence that I play by your rules. Before one can understand spirituality they have to become spiritually connected rather than just connected to definition. Then they understand how to play within the boundaries of identification and ideals without being bound to them.
I did address your question, but because it doesn't fit into your box, you did not find finality or containment, or your answer that you want from me.

Ok, then your answers are so indirect its more like a dance around the question.

I'm under no illusion about how connected to spirituality I am, it was definately a passing state, but one that left me with an immense new passion for humanities wisdom and the pattern we've made. I want to know what this state is, and why it crops up naturally within society, and why religion is as old as conciousness. I want to know why I felt sexual energy during this passionate experience. It 'aroused' my curiosity about the basic drive of humans, how and why we are animated at all.

Forgive me if my own curiosity and experience with entheogens, and also personal experience with natural and spontaneous altered states does make me believe whole heartedly, zealot like. I'm after a direct spiritual-scientific answer to answer the question of 'Why?'. I know all I've found in all religious thoughts, spiritual artwork and history, is our inability to critically look at what we know has happened. We should by now be able to frame the process creating everything with a rational description, the movement of energy of the source is there to see, but its no good just looking at the physical elements of the Universe.

But I'm just an idiot, thinking that 1. my beliefs are any more valid than the next guy, and 2. that history and formations of biological culture has anything at all to do with the movements of our God. I just want to see my creator thanks.

I doubt you are Buddha and have mastered illusion and emotion to the point of Nirvana. If you have and it ends with people posting on forums, then I think I'll opt out lol. But seriously, if you've experienced what you talk about then I envy you. If you haven't, then your talking without experience, which has always caused issues.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/paul_st..._the_world.html

I feel theres some value to the discussion in this video.

Each individual has to follow the nature of free will and choice to discover their connection to the Absolute. How that plays out and how one lives their life is partially predetermined and partially a surrender to each moment, actually a balance of both. There is a direction the universe is taking and that is to expand outward and then collapse in on itself, just as we move outward in action and then turn inward in introspection, or sleep and awaken to the universe created. Consciousness appears to breathe in and out like a sine wave on an oscilloscope showing alternating current which rises above a point that separates the manifest from the unmanifest. Both sides of the line are real and both have characteristics that allow consciousness to recognize itself.
Paradoxically when we experience the seat of consciousness it has no movement at all but to realize non movement one has to be active as the movement of creation which is how consciousness experiences itself.
The reality of consciousness is both simple and complex. Confusion is only the state of the ego because it seeks to stop and analyze nature rather than to flow with it. A river of water moves in a direction and does not stop to see where it is going and does not struggle to fight objects in its way. It takes everything in stride and finds its natural direction toward the Sea and then joins it to become one. This is the nature of spirituality this natural movement of spirit outward in duality to experience the potential of its infinite being and then back to its home to begin all over again for always, and in many dimensional configurations and timelines.

To experience it changes ones outlook on life but does not necessitate one to become the savior of the world. Enlightened individuals come in many forms and are always working with the flow of the current. Some make a bigger splash than others, but the reality of life is that to be in "Union" with God, your desire is God's desire, God not living for want doesn't need but moves like a wave moving from the sea toward the shore and back to home again never isolating itself strictly to one form or manifestation of thought or experience but alive in timelessness within the time created universe as all things.

God is in all things and is not required to live upon a throne and so the mind that figures how an enlightened soul should occupy itself only does so from a position of standing outside of enlightenment.

You also have to realize there are multidimensional aspects of the soul within the creation of time and space and one is not isolated to one form or one body. When one becomes self realized they become more of who they are as they unite with all aspects of creation. There is no place where one is not.
The first stages of enlightenment are the awakening to the absolute, the direct experience of it, the awareness of it being established within ones self and then the direct experience of what is inside as being the self and it continuing outward into everything else one sees. There is no end to the progression of expanding awareness, we only limit it by our imagination of barriers and concepts of infinite beingness.
I have not by any means reached an end to the road, even Jesus had more to experience after the crucifixion. God is not a finite beingness it is much more than the human concept of infinity, and obviously much more than some scale to be measured and achieved.

Our greatness is only limited by our imagination and most try to imagine by taking what they experience into consideration rather than to let it all go to allow the infinite to really present itself. The senses have been trained in the waking state to see and experience only a small amount of reality.
Children experience celestials but adults who have decided they are illusion tell them to ignore them because they are illusions. So innocence is subdued and redirected to programs of limitation and relative absolutes.
There are far greater experiences to be had than what I experience, I have no monopoly on consciousness and I never claimed to be greater than anyone else. People only assume they know how to measure consciousness and conscious awareness and make comparisons based on their own beliefs rather than to lose their fantasy of being in control of the world and their life. The only thing humans have control over is to join the bigger picture and open the eyes and ears to their greater self and what it is creating or to wear blindfolds and ignore the obvious in the attempts to manipulate personal ideas into the mixture of the mirrored reflection of thousands of ideas trying to take a position on the beachhead of creativity.

There is no reason science should be able to contain the universal mind or to establish a system of relative measure to contain even a part of it. Science is only a process of exploration not a system of containment. Sure there are ways to recognize truth and reality, they have been discussed by Self realized Masters since man first became aware of God, which is long before our recorded history.
5000 years ago the science of Yoga was resurrected from the sleeping consciousness of man who had taken a ride outward into sensory absorption and ignorance but our universe is coming back into the golden age and the souls residing on this particular planet are here to witness an awakening that will take place that hasn't occurred for better than 25 thousand years.
People should be more interested in their own awakening rather than trying to establish where I am. If I was the most enlightened person on the planet there would still be a wave of distrust and the ego's need for proof to to protect the individuals way of life so that it is not rendered obsolete. That is the ego's biggest fear, to become nothing or obsolete in the face of something much greater than the limitations of individuality and separation.

People are much more interested in knocking down the threat to their personal truth than to realize the universal truth, especially if universal truth is undermining the addictions to personal agenda. Either that or they insist they are not capable of matching wits with God because God is too big for their imagination and so they see themselves as fish in the water hoping God will reassure their livelihood as fish without the threat of extinction or a threat to personal agenda.
2000 years ago Jesus was put on a pedestal and everyone wanted him to save humanity from themselves, but instead he said save yourselves. No one had a clue what he was talking about. He came, performed feats that were to their level of consciousness miracles of impossibility, and then sacrificed his physical body to show anyone who was paying attention that the end of the physical body was not the end of the consciousness within the body, and then moved on to leave the herd where they wanted to stand, in their own shit pile. C'est la Vie.

Here we are 2000 years later a little bit smarter but not much... and a wave of energy is about to hit this planet that is either going to knock some sense into a few people or cause them to disappear and take the short bus to repeat the class.

Why not use the internet to send a message? Should God send lightning bolts and another man to walk on water, when man will just stand there staring and drooling again only to give up all sensibility to ones own power of choice and creativity or to make him go thru the James Randi test of 100 obstacles before given consideration and validity?

Man has to reach a state of wisdom that isn't built on fear before he can actually begin to grasp the relative aspects of consciousness let alone the unlimited reality of it. Some are getting pretty close and if it weren't for a few who are brave enough to rattle the cage of complacency and limited scope of vision that comes with some stubborn egos without the need to wear the badge of savior and Christed being, who knows where we would be.

You'd be surprised what an enlightened person would do in surrender and service to humanity.
In the words of a profit, I only pave the way for someone who will do much greater works than I.

Or, I am only an egg....

Thank you to all for comments on my question, I shall respond soon or late.

But we have extremely interesting news from Axum, Ethiopia for DMT Elves Chronicles (see below).

The second gateway is back.

Ethiopia celebrates as obelisk is unveiled in Axum

http://africa.reuters.com/top/news/usnBAN442822.html
Thu 4 Sep 2008, 10:54 GMT

By Tsegaye Tadesse

AXUM, Ethiopia (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of Ethiopians cheered on Thursday as a 1,700-year-old giant stone obelisk taken to Italy by fascist invaders in the 1930s was restored to its historic site in an ancient northern town.

The national treasure was returned to Ethiopia three years ago by the Italian government and U.N. engineers have helped install it at its original location in Axum, which was once the centre of a powerful trading empire.

"The cooperation to return the obelisk which was looted and taken to Rome by Italy's fascist government was the right decision," Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi said as the obelisk was unveiled to roars of approval from the crowd.

Plundered during Italy's 1937 invasion, the 24-metre (78-foot), 160-tonne chiselled granite tower had been placed in a Rome square by fascist leader Benito Mussolini.

It was returned in April 2005, but its return to the Axum site was delayed while scientists studied newly discovered subterranean funeral chambers and royal arcades used by several dynasties before the Christian era.

Richard Pankhurst, a British historian who had campaigned for its return, said Thursday's ceremony was a significant sign of improving relations between Ethiopia and Italy.

The Italian government paid some $10 million in shipping and installation costs.

"Only the return of the obelisk could heal the still festering scars left by the atrocities committed by Mussolini and his fascist hordes," Pankhurst told Reuters.

He said the Ethiopian authorities should now turn their attention to erecting six other fallen obelisks in Axum.

"While we rejoice at the return of the obelisk from Italy, the challenge now for the government is to re-erect those fallen obelisks," Pankhurst said.

A thousand years before Christ, Axum was the city of the legendary Queen of Sheba and the heart of Axumite civilisation, one of the greatest in the ancient world. Modern Ethiopians see themselves as the descendants of this Biblical kingdom.

Legend has it that God blessed the city after the queen's son Menelik I stole the Ark of the Covenant from his father King Solomon in Jerusalem and brought it to Axum, where many Ethiopians believe it remains to this day.