A delusion is a belief or false opinion. An OBE is an experience which is transcendental of thought and language. An interpretation of an OBE could be considered delusional, but I am not interpreting here.

A hallucination is what it is, a hallucination. The experience itself is not a delusion, rather it is what the mind wraps around it afterwards which makes it delusion. Realizing this allows one to transcend the need to interpret or squeeze the experience into language. It is what it is.

Ok, Joesus obviously believes that you cannot experience unity, brahman, the absolute or even glimpse the reality the yogis are talking using entheogens.

Funny, considering the words background:


This shows me that others have felt the same way. In fact the whole Timothy Leary thing and the 60's was ALL about this issue. So whether people like it or not, its not a crazy idea that God is really within the mushroom.

Here is an interesting read -

The Entheogen Theory of Religion and Ego Death

Recreational Ego Death: Dissolution

The classic text of Re-creational surrender or sacrifice of self is the Bardo Thodol, or Tibetan Book of the Dead. It is explicitly for the living who undertake the death-like regression into the unconscious, as well as the dying. Because of their orientation toward consciousness journeys The Psychedelic Experience and American Book of the Dead are useful translations or contemporizations of the transformational classic.

The realm of death is the twilight zone between consciousness and matter. Here psychoid pheomena manifest through the mingling of these modes. Here mind/matter duality ceases, creating enchantment, uncanny synchronicities, time warps, psychic experience, revelation of the mind and matter, the Nature MInd.

The moment of ego death is heralded by certain symptoms of transition. Resistance by the mind to this creative dissolution brings about physical symptoms which range from shaking and a sense of increasing pressure and anxiety, to paradoxical flashes of hot and cold, to extreme dizzyness and disorientation. As the classic psychedelic manual says, "The hard, dry, brittle husks of your ego are washing out; Washing out to the endless sea of Creation." (Leary, et al, 1964).

Distressing or disturbing symptoms symbolize the violence of the passage of consciousness from form to formlessness. Images of the body disintegrating or being blown to atoms are characteristic psychedelic experiences (fear of exploding=fear of expanding). Perhaps the very elements of our bodies "remember" their formation in the crucible of some supernova. There may be identification with merciless destruction, the Dance of Shiva, the raging elements of nature, a variety of forms of explosive discharge. Here are vision of fires, floods, raging storms, earthquakes, volcanoes, turbulent lakes of magma.

Consciousness "breaks up" into its elemental forms, manifesting as overwhelming imagery. This first phase of dissolution may be characterized by the futility of resistance, magnetic downward spirals, gravity wells, loss of morphological identity. We remain the state of dis-integration until we re-member our essential self, emodying the sounded healer.

Disintegration comes as the ego gives up its unified perspective to the multiple consciousness of the deep self. Fear makes it feel like fragmentation, but in truth there is nothing in that imagery that is not us. The death throes of the ego prepare it for rebirth, a new incarnation of the spirit.

Psychogenesis II: Chaosophy 2000

it's good to experience these varied states of consciousness, as they open our eyes to the infinite potential of consciousness, always bearing in mind that they are all creations of the myriad neurons in your brain, and that OBE, NDE, and astral travel are no exception. It's quite amazing that our brains, a "material" substance, can give rise to such experiences, or to any experiences for that matter, and underscores the necessity, which arguably amounts to a moral imperative for each and every one of us, for understanding these brain processes.

It astounds me that people can devote their lives to politics or economics and remain completely incognizant of the divine mystery within their heads, never experiencing the curiosity or feeling morally compelled to examine and plumb its depths.

On an unrelated note, FP, "The Entheogen Theory of Religion and Ego Death" is an interesting idea but has been around for a long time. Ultimately, it fails to convincingly demonstrate that entheogens played any role in the formation of major religions, and thus amounts to pure speculation and fantasy, on a par with the idea of extraterrestrial involvement with the Great Pyramids.

Pure and unfiltered as in there is no greater experience of yourself and consciousness to be had.

Part of the intention to harmonize? To change me and my opinion, to rearrange the exterior so that the inner matches the outer?
And you said you transcended the ego...
So you ask me for proof and deny my experience.
Part of the harmonizing process? The my experience is greater than your experience so I will choose to make my experience the universal foundation for Truth of reality kinda thinking...

So in favor of the attraction to yourself you don't need to bring the transcendental self forward into your experience of self, so you leave it behind. Thus labeling the self dual in nature rather than transcendental.
I see why you insist the absolute can be contained in experience and that experience is not a reflection of self but THE SELF.


You mean like looking back on yourself in the identity of having transcended the ego and having broken through and being self realized? Looking back on yourself and seeing yourself separate from those who disagree with you creating the intent to harmonize the separation and experience of disagreement? The experience of consciousness disagreeing with itself as the Self?


Then see me differently and in a different light. Rather than being opposite, see me in union with you and transcend both the idea of my words and any interpretation of them, and then your ideas and interpretations, rise above your beliefs in your past experiences to experience something different.


No its not a crazy idea any more than God is a white haired and bearded man in the sky. If enough people establish a need and a resonant belief, it becomes believable to the mind.
No one thought it was crazy that the Earth was Flat, but then we know better now that we have risen above such foolish notions.

People over the centuries know that there is more to who we are and what we experience, and as soon as the mind wanders into unknown territory which inspires them to dive deeper, images and labels of God appear.
The god-like experience can be attached to anything that is projected outward from the norm.

The thing is if you have enough familiarity with something that you have labeled God and something greater happens to you in your awareness and experience then the God-like fantasy falls away to be replaced by the newer, bigger and better God like experience. Or you have a difference in opinion about what God looks like and start another church at the other end of the block, like so many Baptist Churches in the South.

There's always more to experience, I never claimed there wasn't. What I meant was the filters of the mind dissolve into the present experience.




There is only misunderstanding that is creating duality.




You only disagree because you misunderstand. Everything you are talking about here has nothing to do with what I am talking about.




And believe that my OBE's were delusion? I can't agree with your beliefs.

Yes I agree that is not concrete evidence, but what was more interesting was the explanations of ego death, or dissolution.

I've read the Tibetan Bardos from the perspective of ego-death and it is very plausible given the reasoning behind meditation and the original Buddhas experience.

Peoples historical belief in the world being flat is an illusion in itself. The ancients calculated precession, there are megalithic stones in huge rows in france that can be used to calculate the circumference of the earth. These things go against the misconception that we used to think the world is flat. Also the dating has been moved around several times about who said this and when they said it.

Consciousness is amazing, theres a huge assortment of states you can be left in through the maze that is the body. I don't discount anyones experience because they only give you a different angle on the mystery of life. Nothing can be absolute. If you can create a computer advanced enough to think, then ask it what it thinks about its thinking, the law of comedy should make it explode.

I also don't believe that entheogens were responsible for religion, this doesnt make sense at all. I think Dawkins is on the right track in saying its a bi-product of consciousness, I believe its a primary function. We're built to believe, its a kind of observational feedback loop that builds our minds to suit environment. Entheogens came after religion, they have came back in cycles, been revered and then feared over and over.

You would think by now we should all realise that you can't hide issues like this away, although there can be no resolution from arguing either way about entheogens and religion.

But personally, I still believe that you can get another glimpse of God/Consciousness from using entheogens, although I still don't believe I've come close to a break-through moment. This takes more bravery than I have.

Belief is the impetus to draw the experiences toward you but then the refinement of what creation is and how you relate to it often gets diluted by the ideas of God and what God looks like.

The present experience being on par with the present compatibility of understanding and ones relationship with the Universe. Generally speaking it is impossible to take ones perception of reality beyond the level of comprehension.

No it is only misunderstanding that distorts duality. Duality is the process of experience.
Because the absolute consciousness is beyond experience it must be brought out of its formless state and into form through the process of duality.

That would be true to your present experience.
Unity has nothing to do with like mindedness or beliefs.

Not in my experience

No of course not.

Finally found an image of those Maya mushrooms. These were obviously difficult to create, and just like the Egyptians did with their art, they revered these objects as powerful religious artifacts.


Interesting that a whole culture sprang up that used these entheogens and saw the movement of their deities as serpent like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Serpent

This is maybe where the shamanic explanation of the caduceus comes from. The thing that is obvious is that the Mayans believed that they could enter the spirit world, using entheogens, and be guided by their serpent-like Gods. I actually believe they saw serpents because of the physical effects of the mushrooms. The visual distortions are often a breathing, ever-growing, serpent-like movements and often extreme mental focus or complete mystical experience. My own experience and the evidence of this situation with the Maya are compelling, don't you think?

What I'd like to discuss is whether this serpent symbolism is widespread because of a shared idea and subsequent diffusion into societies; whether the symbol is chosen because it represents the simplest form that nature takes - the waveform; or is it something like an archetype of consciousness due to our biology. The serpent often crops up in religious iconography, and not in a small way either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28symbolism%29

I can detail the different examples of this imagery if required, but a quick list off the top of my head is:
Egyptians, Maya, Aztecs, Incas, Native Americans, Hindus, Buddhists, Asias, Christianity (Eden, Moses Staff), Norse mythology and many more. Obviously some examples are more like the Maya than others, but the quantity and placement in religion is very interesting, isn't it?

Excellent post!

Have you ever thought the serpents could resemble the Kundalini serpent rising up the back of the spine? Hundreds, if not thousands of people have experienced the Kundalini serpent rising up their spine from the navel. And it is such a powerful explosion of energy that this dramatically changes the course of their life. They gain access to higher states of consciousness, astral travel, etc.

Here is some more info -

http://www.elcollie.com/st/st.html

http://www.elcollie.com/st/letters.html

Forums -

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewforum.php?f=10

There are many people who have experienced this, as well with the help of entheogens.

I've not experienced it, but its another link to entheogens, meditation and the conciousness. It does seem that the serpent imagery is intertwined with consciousness for similar reasons in whatever form it takes. The churning of the milky ocean is a beautiful and poetic version of the creation of life, and this is achieved by the angels and devils working together (bad translation really but it sufices) using the world serpent as a pulling rope to rotate the world in the sky - facilitating life. I believe there are links between the temples of Angkor Wat, the pentagram and the Fibonacci sequence. This link is extremely poetic and is very important to my beliefs.

I've not experienced it, but its another link to entheogens, meditation and the conciousness. It does seem that the serpent imagery is intertwined with consciousness for similar reasons in whatever form it takes. The churning of the milky ocean is a beautiful and poetic version of the creation of life, and this is achieved by the angels and devils working together (bad translation really but it sufices) using the world serpent as a pulling rope to rotate the world in the sky - facilitating life. I believe there are links between the temples of Angkor Wat, the pentagram and the Fibonacci sequence. This link is extremely poetic and is very important to my beliefs.

From one of those links above, an extract of someones letter of their "kundalini" awakening.


I'm not so sure on this validity of this experience to be honest. The range of symptoms seems so large that any number of problems could cause a lof of them. The nostril thing is just way off, because I'm pretty sure that the nose works in exactly this way. The depression then manic exhiliration could be mild form of bi-polar disorder, and this person even goes on to say he could hear a voice at one point. Having said this I have experienced non-drug induced hallucinations and an internal vibration on several occasions, and its very interesting that DMT breakthrough gives this same tearing noise. I've also experienced a zapping noise whilst lying in bed that is so loud and fast that I actually become afraid that I'm going to passout/die/explode. So I'm definately not dismissing anything too readily, only I wish someone could sort the wheat from the chaff on these issues. Its fairly impossible since its all a subjective experience. The guy goes on to talk about how he did a little faith healing, which again I feel brings the whole validity of the report into question.

Its this natural vibration and altered states which fascinates me. Why does breaking through into altered states cause this tearing effect? Has anyone on this board experienced it during meditation? Is there something in the brain that could cause mystical or hallucinatory experiences, and be near the place for processing auditory signals?

Sometimes it feels like your sailing the ethereal cosmic ocean in a ship thats visible only to you, trying to explain how the boat functions, and the currents move, to other people who have invisible boats on this crazy ocean.

Thank you for the Maya mushrooms Trojan.

In the natural process of the mind and body as it settles into deep rest and stillness I know of no one who practices the particular type of meditation I do who experiences what you describe.
However Just about everyone I have tripped with could tell you about what you describe.

There is a Bindhu point where the absolute and the manifest merge, and it is like a living membrane that seems to open and close similar to the pulse of a heartbeat, only not at the same speed as a human heart. The vibration is much higher. Actually it doesn't open and close so much as it goes in and out of phase so fast that it literally connects manifest reality and the unmanifest by being in both at the same time.
When someone trips the mind is forced beyond its current state of awareness and what is created is a tear in what it has created around it in its layers of belief.
Similar to the Bindhu point of the unmanifest and the manifest is the opening and closing layer that exists between the Self/God and individuality/ego. When someone trips they force their way out of this bubble and bounce around in an experience that is not unlike taking someones physical eyes from them. In sudden blindness the conditioned mind tries to capture what it knows in the darkness. This creates fantastic anomalies that are proportionate to ones emotional state and level of consciousness at the time they take their drug.
The tear creates scarring which is like a thick hide that inhibits the mind from achieving the same experience again without taking more drugs to tear it again.
Not everyone hears or experiences the tearing effect, but everyone I know has at one point or another. Usually it's ignored for the more fantastic illusions of colors and hallucinations that have more of an entertainment value.
This description is one that seems relevant to close observation of the drug and its effects. Most who trip recreationally, pound their nervous system with more of a coctail of drugs and alchohol in a mixed environment that doesn't lend one to close observation of the effects of the drug but more of the drugs and the party environment.

I'm not really looking for a esoteric answer here, although theres plenty of those about, but more of a biological explanation. The tearing effect I've only had spontaneously and without the use of drugs. Twice as a child when my language centre in the brain was over stimulated, and the zapping noise was coming and going when i was sober. I have read about the tearing noise as you blast into the DMT dimensions, but that is not unexpected given that DMT is produced in the body and so is indirectly related.
Is this a guess at what happens, or do you have evidence?
This assumption is clearly from my stance on hallucinogens, however this phenomenon did not happen anywhere near my drug taking years, and I believe it has something to do with spontaneous visions and DMT. This is the single most significant part of my life and made me go on to research a lot of brain related phenomenon. The hallucinogens came after the experience, so I think what you said is biased somewhat by my stance on those substances. I've also never experienced this tearing through any entheogen, and neither has anyone i know. A feeling of vibration maybe, which is more common.

Please Joesus, discuss some of the points raised about the Maya and their entheogenic use and religious ideas, or why the use of the serpent symbol is so prevalent. Do you not find it interesting at least?

Is not the esoteric you responsible for the biological you, or do you believe that the biological you, creates the esoteric and dissolves upon physical death. If you believe in the latter then all hallucinations are simply manifestations of biological imbalances, and that would be perception of physical reality as well. Which might tend to create a need to create a biological standard so that everyone would and will perceive reality the same.
Biological Religion anyone?

Physical evidence of the non physical?
I guess that is what is ever on trial here isn't it.

Of course you do.
C'est la vie

Lol, you made a claim, I made an observation.
You sir, are a troll who doesn't even address the points raised. C'est la vie...really grown up.

BTW, is your name Gary?

Yes I did.

If it was?

Thats the name on the poker avatar thats using the same image as your avatar. No reason or derogatory comment.

What?! Joesus is Gary?! Whau!

Mr. Harry Potter? Or Old Harry?

Btw, I used Se La Vi phrase in other topic prior entering and reading this topic few minutes ago. So do we established some sort of Consciousness Singularity?

I knew that it is working.

Btw Trojan, how did you locate his another avatar?
Coincidental search?

/Some silly ideas/
Truly speaking, I think (I just suppose) that Joesus uses such a username that makes absolutely impossible to Ping him in planetary scale (the noise level is very high and creates firewall), though at the same time his avatar is not a common one, so it can be considered as a nice Pinging key. But at the same time, as it is rare one it may lead to a closed door (due to absence of a third port or presence of a blocking word associated with the avatar).
In addition to that, his linguistic constructions are such that it is not possible (at least at first glance it looks like impossible) to fish out a knot which later on can be used as an access key.
So I guess that Mr. Joesus from cybernetic point of view is well protected from unauthorized Pinging. At the same time usage of such a username may create some difficulties for Joesus himself as he will tune the noise I have mentioned above and one needs to develop a great will power to contain that flow.
/End of some silly ideas/

Dear Children, while reading this topic remember that we sometimes are joking, do not take us serious.

Yes these so called symptoms could be symptoms of something other than kundalini awakening. The thing that interests me though is how many people have had the distinct feeling of snakes (kundalini energy) bursting and twirling up their spinal cord. I do not doubt the intensity of their experiences as I often times feel prana rising up my spine and releasing out my heart and higher centers. A full kundalini awakening is supposed to be intense awakening as opposed to having prana flow, which is known to be a a subtle version of this energy. Just my thoughts.

I had a thought once..
But seriously Pranic energy flowing through the nadis and their corresponding chakras is Kundalini. It is when one experiences a jolt of prana through clogged circuitry that one experiences an intense feeling.
When all chakras spin clear and without color they are unclogged. Allowing energy to flow through the Ida Pingala and Shushmna. The Caduceus is symbolic of this, in that the two snakes represent the Ida and Pingala, the staff the Shushmna, and the open wings are representative of full human consciousness when one has removed all of the stress in the central nervous system opening the petals of each chakra allowing energy to rise unrestricted through all of the nadis opening the 108 petals of the crown Chakra.

Many try to control prana but the very thought restricts prana from moving within the subtle body and into the emotional and physical. It is our active attention on the gross levels of sensory experience that create the system clogs in the first place.
There is nothing jolting or intense about full human consciousness unless one forces the nervous system to do something it isn't prepared for. Kind like running 100 volts through wire that is the size of human hair or an arc of current through a break in a circuit to ground.

What is the difference between prana and kundalini? What is the difference between qi (or chi) and kundalini?

First let us try to relate to concepts from the same tradition - prana and kundalini. Prana has been translated as the ``vital breath'' and ``bio-energetic motility''; it is associated with maintaining the functioning of the mind and body. Kundalini, in its form as prana-kundalini, is identical to prana ; however, Kundalini also has a manifestations as consciousness and a as a unifying cosmic energy. One could ascribe these same aspects to prana as well so past a certain point these become distinctions without differences.



From the subjective standpoint of an individual actually experiencing the awakening of kundalini I have found three completely different opinions:

The first opinion is that a pranic awakening is only a prelude to a full kundalini awakening. Tibetan yogins that I have encountered consider the activation of prana (Tibetan: rlung) as merely a prerequisite for the activation of kundalini (Tibetan: gTummo). What's attractive about this viewpoint is that it explains the difference between the experience of simply having pleasant sensations in the spine and the much more powerful experience of having a ``freight-train''-like full kundalini experience.

The second opinion, espoused by Swami Shivom Tirth for example, is that prana and kundalini are absolutely equivalent and that it is not meaningful in any way to describe a difference between kundalini rising and prana rising. When posed with question as to how to distinguish between pleasant sensations that show some pranic-activity in the spine and the much more powerful experience Swami Shivom Tirth said that the difference is not in the nature of the activity but in the consciousness that observes it. If the consciousness that experiences the pranic activity is seated within the spine (or more correctly, the central channel, known as the sushumna), then the experience is felt much more powerfully.

The third opinion, espoused by the modern hatha yogin, Desikaran, is that pranic awakening is the true experience to be aimed for and kundalini is actually an obstruction. Desikaran sees the kundalini as a block in the central channel and thus the kundalini must be ``killed'' to make way for the prana. This is the most unusual view of the three.

I just hope that one day when you will realize what those snakes on your spinal cord truly are you will not turn white of fear.

I don't think you can really know it until you have experienced, and that goes for both of us

All we can do now is speculate the possibilities.

How will you experience the infinite if it is beyond experience?

Pointless response Joesus. He means that he hopes to experience the same level of union as the people who envisaged the chakra system. The ancient practitioners that felt they had experienced unity, would you go into their sacred places and say that to their face, or would you have a little more respect for their experience.

@Enki: I play poker and noticed Joesus avatar in use on a player there.

"Where did you get it from?" and the smart arse replied "internet."
"I knew that, I didnt think forced penguins to annoy a polar bear"
"I did"
He was a cocky and cheeky sod, and I laughed and poked fun whenever he lost money until he dropped out the competition on TILT. I'm sure this wasn't our Joesus though, was it?

Consciousness recognizes consciousness. As such if someone was putting on fairy wings and getting ready to leap off of a tall building thinking they would fly, I might say something.
But people jump anyway.

I have some ideas which may seem strange to some, however I still find your posts poluting to the discussions at hand. What are you on about, speak in less esoteric terms and I may give you more respect.

If i have to be manipulated to earn your respect I would lose myself, and respect would be relative to what others would think of me.
What exactly is it that you don't understand?

I don't understand how somebody who talks so much about spirituality can conceptualize and analyze so much.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.

You wouldn't if that is all you can grasp in your experience.

If thine eye be single....

Why grasp when I can observe?

But if you do not understand you are not observing.

Shallow

Now your just making excuses

Nahh, just more observations..

Can a moderator please come and tidy this thread up, most of it is junk. Thanks Joesus, another thread derailed.

you mean judgments

I'm finding it a bit educational.

I see. Funny coincidence. Things attract things.

Educational?! Really. Interesting.
And what do you learn Rick?

In this case I do really hope that someone will make an attempt to invite Hey Hey back to forum, because he wanted to make cleanup of his writings and was offended of not being permitted to clean his writings.

To Joesus:

Stop this please. I do politely request you to respect opinion of the other people.

No, he was offended because his opinions that led him to react emotionally, and delete posts that were written in response to his sarcasm were not shared by another moderator. He left in an emotional huff.


If there is a more than occasional disagreement with what is taking place within the workings of a free forum then I would assume there would be a need for a moderator to make requests or state certain rules of engagement.

In a case where one or two find that their expectations aren't being met then I would suspect that disagreement is normal.
To say I Fucked this Topic up would be an opinion I suppose in the idea that when someone starts a topic that it should go or stay specifically within boundaries that one expects them to.
Personally I think when an open forum exists to express ones ideas about a topic that if there is disagreement then it would be normal to present the other side of opinion such as the opinion of disagreement and any language that would resemble the other opinion.
It would seem what irritates some here is when disagreement or language that would continue to express information or opinion goes beyond the stage where certain parties have lost interest or feel threatened.
I think wars have been started by the inability to stay neutral or observe without being involved emotionally and intellectually.

Respect for others opinions is something I have, but I also respect the Truth, and as such find it profitable to weed out the illusions created around any beliefs. The more you dig up on a topic, what will stand alone is what cannot be broken down leaving opinions to the wayside. Opinions always change and so chipping away at the rough exterior of a rock to expose the artistic underneath would mean that opinions should be easily surrendered to the intellectual musings of others without the fear that their soul is threatened when someone matches their opinion with another that doesn't taste the same.

Obviously, not everyone feels the same about everything.
Since this topic is in the heading of expanding consciousness, then I would assume a mushroom cannot cover the scope of this idea, tho there may be some who insist it would.