This is simply your interpretation of the facts. Isn't it fairly obvious that any drug use in history has been played down in our culture to keep up with our politicians current views - ie drugs are bad m'kay. Egyptian rituals were often conducted with the use of the Blue Lotus. There are images of this flower everywhere, including heiroglyphs of religious rites and the creation stories. Not many people know that the Egyptians had special wanking rooms, decorated with crude pornography and wine laced with Blue Lotus freely available. There are many depictions of this flower in scenes of fertility, ie orgies and such. Not suprisingly this aspect of Egyptian life is not on the curriculum in schools.

The Blue Lotus was featured in the TV program "Sacred Weeds" where they use volunteers to test out the effects of various plants used in religious ceremonies. The reason for the flowers usage is fairly obvious when you consider its effects. The participants felt quite euphoric and chatty, and had what looked like a mild ecstacy buzz. The difficulty of getting hold of this plant meant there was only a light dose available. Loving it up in ancient Egypt huh?

I'd ask people to not try and get hold of any of this plant, its extremely rare and has a chemical equivalent in the Ginkho Biloba supplements. This is known to increase oxygen flow which has the effect of helping impotency, improving concentration and other nice effects.

Egypt is one of the original sources of religion (if not THE source), and apparently the first anatomically correct humans came from the African plains which only strenghthens this fact.

So I strongly disagree with this statement:
To develop conscious awareness in a natural way, that being a way that is natural to the nervous system without chemical manipulation is what is hailed in the ancient writings since the beginning of history.



The Celestials are everywhere?? Can you kindly explain what this means, because to my crude understanding it seems like your saying that these invisible beings are all around us waiting to be seen by the next prophet or saint. This is a highly subjective view if thats the case, its also in the realm of Terrence McKennas view that there are entities "in" there (points to head).

We're trying to discuss the potentials within a REAL religious sacrament, not holy wine and rice paper. If these visions come without the sacrament then this is fine, but there has to be a mechanism for this to happen. If we find the mechanism through experiments with sacraments, then we will be better off for it - no?

Please keep the discussion on track, if you have nothing to add then please wait til you do.

Oh almost forgot, FP and Enki behave

I am sorry, that will not be repeated.

Your sarcastic remarks are not polite, I am nice to those who are nice to me. Like a reflection...

My avatar is not depressing, it is depressing to you because you hold feelings of depression. It is only a perception, that is all. You obviously do not understand my avatar if you feel it is depressing. It only reflects the feelings you hold.

You even cannot imagine how well I do understand your avatar.

Transcending mere reflection and becoming a source of love is an exercise of free will.

Now I suppose one might be thinking that everyone on this forum is fond of preaching. I usually resist that urge, for obvious reasons. I freely chose not to resist in this case.

We are all sources of love, not everybody is receptive and not everybody can see it. Some see an image and some see with heart. Those who are bound within feelings of depression and sadness and project those feelings onto others need help becoming aware of those projections. These are projections of the ego. This is all I mean. I was nice enough to state what I have observed and that is just honesty. My intentions were not to put down, rather to make Enki aware of how she attempts to puts others down. Sometimes I need a good whip from the master to realize where I have gone wrong.

I would enjoy hearing your interpretation of my avatar and how it is so depressing.

I think Enki enjoys being enigmatic.

Admitting you are delusional and realizing that you are delusional is, I guess, a form of self realization.


That'd be Conditional love. Like taking in your own reflection and spitting it back out.


Unless we are not...Like in a reflection.


I like that drugs are played down because they F**K with the intricate balance of the human nervous system rather than injecting conspiracy theories.
But you can stick to your story, 's OK by me.


OK.... TV is a good source of Egyptian historical fact. I guess I can ignore anything I know in favor of what your experts say.

Damn.. I hate when that happens.. Not only do you disagree, you strongly disagree.. Oh poop!


No, what I was saying is that it has taken the consciousness of someone who has been labeled as a prophet or a saint to recognize these layers of reality which are ignored by someone who say.. Believes in Television as an authority for the meaning of life.


We meaning you and anyone who agrees with certain perspectives?


No. There is no mechanism. That is what makes a Saint a Saint or a prophet a prophet. They don't carry with them, a defined limitation and set it before all that is different from themselves, God and their peers, making claims to themselves that God is revealed through the magic of placebos.
If there was a mechanism it would be to turn off the ignore switch, in Self Awareness.



I'm still not getting what the beef is about regarding what is on track and what isn't.
Hey Hey started this conversation with me and started deleting my posts because I addressed his comments without meeting his expectations.
Enki starts a Topic on Mother Teresa and discusses present day Bipartisan Politics.

I believe I have included the topic subject matter of Mushrooms and God. Any political or religious attachment to God and the way God looks, be it like a mushroom or not is strictly personal.
If these discussions do not allow any opposing thought to the personal preferences of an irate member than perhaps said topics should include the reference to a rule that any opposing thoughts will not be tolerated with a guideline as to what subject matter shall include in the way of corresponding language and ideas that can be included in relationship to God, experiences of God, Mushrooms and experiences and opinions of mushrooms and experiences had with mushrooms, and God relating to the identification of God and mushrooms.

What conspiracy theory exactly? I find it amusing that you used the F word in capitals, you getting emotional on my ass? Be careful, you may lose your enlightened boy scout badge. Go tell the government to stop F**King with our human rights and forcing us to use THEIR alcohol. Maybe then I'll side with you.

The story of wanking rooms came straight from a colleague who toured Egypt and was shown these rooms filled with pornographic heiroglyphs. The TV program contained valid experiments with empirical data. Also, if you don't know this about Egypt then you don't know much at all. Keep on attacking Joesus, you'll never be Ghandi.

I'm really feeling that childish interior seeping through in these posts. Defend your point rather than attacking. The fact is that drugs were used since the beginning of history and your statement was thrown in amongst the usual wailing without enough thought. We have used drugs since we've taken in food through our mouths, we will continue to use drugs no matter what laws and morality is around.

Its been said in another thread that the military utilise amphetamine on long missions. In Vietnam they dealt in cocaine. These are nasty drugs for sure, but clearly the US of A doesn't feel the war on drugs applies to their decisions. Wake up Joesus, seems you fell asleep whilst meditating 5 years ago...
This all has no bearing on the topic at hand.


You said "The Celestials" are everywhere. Now your talking like there are layers of reality filled with images of angels and demons and you can see them if your "holy" enough. Can anyone bring some science back into the thread please. You then attack me again for seeking to learn more about sacred plants used in Egyptian society from the only known filmed experiment. Just because this series was aired on TV doesn't make it a tabloid newspaper story, we're in the 21st century now Joesus, TV can have real programmes with real scientific value on.


I don't care that you don't agree, I just care that you stop rambling on like some esoteric cult leader that you pretend to be. Just talk with some logic and I'll respect you more. Speak honestly about how we could address certain issues raised in this thread, and I'll respect you more.

Below is details of "Binocular Rivalry" reduction after intake of mushrooms (hallucinogenic effects blocked).
http://www.journalofvision.org/6/6/43/
What this means is the left and right eye stop fighting for attention in the brain, which brings about a clarity of vision. An evolutionary advantage to those hunter gatherers that ate these mushrooms in small doses. A religious/spiritual experience to those eating them in large doses. I have personal, but subjective, experience with these effects. Many others have too.

Finally, take a look at the description of this research:
http://www.research-projects.unizh.ch/p6528.htm



Oh, I've been wanting to ask you Joesus. I saw your avatar on an online poker room the other day, wondered if it might have been you.

Another example of historical religious mushroom usage, probably the only example required to counter some of Joesus opinions:
I can't seem to find any decent images of the stone mushroom people found in these historical sites. You can easily find one or two depictions though, and will have heard of them.

Here is another few scientific studies which correlates everything I have been saying which Joesus has attempted to dismiss. At least some scientists are leaving their bias at the door.

http://www.csp.org/psilocybin/Psilo2006071...iatricTimes.pdf
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_relea...ithspsilocybinQ

Another more recent discovery about ancient Greece and Christianity:
http://www.entheomedia.org/eden4.htm (bottom part of page)


I'm also pretty sure that most hallucinogens don't act on the central nervous system, they only feel like they do because they are acting directly on the brain.

Ones like the government is responsible for the populations beliefs and experiences with drugs, or the Pope is the Antichrist etc etc.

When writing your response
Are you getting emotional on my ass?

I'm sure your friend and your empirical evidence describes perfectly the egyptians and their culture. Kinda like if someone in the far off future might make a decision about our planets culture during the '70's if they found an old copy of Deep Throat with Linda Lovelace. They might think we thought the womans clitoris was in her throat and sought only to find the perfect oral orgasm.

And you're right I'll never be Ghandi, but I don't follow you on the attack thing, didn't you mention earlier that this forum was for debating?

You mean defend myself from your attacks...
If I don't feel attacked do I still defend myself?
And by the way I'm not attacking you, just displaying another side to a thought.


Actually your defensive reaction might have been given without much understanding of my statements.
Sure drugs might have been used since the beginning of history, and people might have been just as stubborn about their ignorance since the beginning of history but that doesn't mean that people don't grow up and realize the power within themselves without the placebos used because of their superstitious beliefs in limitations.

We meaning those who believe they are a necessary part of the need and success to understand human potential. I won't argue that point, But... I will continue to say they aren't necessary.


Okay.... So why are you bringing this up?


No, that would be the belief that the church has used in the past. Everyone is Holy enough but not everyone is willing to allow themselves to be Holy enough. Some, (such as a few posting on this thread) believe their holiness extends itself beyond the normal capacities of human functioning and believe they must take the red pill to open their eyes. As such the search for the perfect red pill extends itself to hallucinogenics, forms of self flagellation, hair shirts and other forms of self torture, to force their nervous systems to bend to their self interpreted ideals because of delusions of separation and inadequacy (limitation).

Oh c'mon, suck it up and quit being so defensive. This is your life, and how you interpret it is how you set the stage for your own ability to rise beyond delusions of fear.
First you want to believe the government is influencing everyones beliefs. And now because its the 21st century, Television or mass media is a source for empirical evidence.

How much time do you spend with your inner self rather than extending your senses outward to electronic authority? Do you believe you can discover the meaning of life on TV?


Ah so.. the old bend over and take it my way and I'll still respect you in the morning tactic of seduction.

Nope you'll just have to go to your wanking room for what you want from me and pretend I've capitulated to your every whim.


What?!! Someone else is using my avatar???? Bastard!!!!


And the brain is not connected to the central nervous system.........Or by saying "the central nervous system" does not mean it includes the brain and its natural functions.

From trojan_libido's reference:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_relea...ithspsilocybinQ

Q 4: Are you trying to find a short cut to the spiritual journey that some people pursue for years?

"Our focus in this research was to study the effects of psilocybin using the methods of modern psychopharmacology. It’s true that "transformative" changes in values, self-perception, and behaviors have been reported across cultures and eras as a consequence of mystical-type experience. This bears investigation."

Later, the interview quotes Huston Smith:

"Mystical experience seems to be as old as humankind, forming the core of many if not all of the great religious traditions. Some ancient cultures, such as classical Greece, and some contemporary small-scale cultures, have made use of psychoactive plants and chemicals to occasion such experiences. But this is the first scientific demonstration in 40 years, and the most rigorous ever, that profound mystical states can be produced safely in the laboratory. The potential is great."

It makes me wonder if Mother Teresa should have tried magic mushrooms for her spiritual isolation.

I'm not going to bouce quote after quote to reiterate water under the bridge, but really... I used F**King in my last post as a parody of your usage, you picking up on it is like a pantomime.

My point is government uses drugs whenever it suits its needs, as should every other "Free" invididual. This does not mean anyone should do so lightly.

Try finding research on the Egyptian Lotus and you'll see its not something thats been extensively tested. The effects are not heavily documented and I wouldn't mind some clever soul finding another source, contradictory or otherwise. By repeating what I believe was video evidence of experiments carried out on "sacred" plants, in a documentary for UK tv, I assumed you could see the importance of this.

My comments on the CNS were not researched and I assumed the CNS was connected to the brain, not that the brain counts as a part of it. My mistake. Its common to feel sensations on the skin or in the body whilst on hallucinogens that have nothing to do with the physical connections in the body, ie the sensation happens in the brain. I'm capable of saying I'm wrong, of considering other evidence.

The evidence of drug use prior to a shift into non-drug induced states is there, our written history shows this. You seem to avoid the points I've raised, only to pick on some delivery method i've chosen. I read a series of essays in http://www.amazon.com/Psychoactive-Sacrame...n/dp/1889725021 and it seems like a good range of experiences by a good sample of open minded individuals. It recounts tales of people at a conference on how to move forward, switzerland or somewhere. What I'm trying to say is that if there are methods to induce humility, cohesiveness and general well being for society through religious communion, then I wish we could put asside all religious differences, find the "god" switch and scientifically turn it on. We need to explore the possibility that all methods are useful, and all should be openly discussed and assimilated into the 21st centuries religious practices.

Not many on this board seem to be interested in the debate, it seems it polarises people like marmite.

I only addressed the reality that there is no necessity for one to take drugs prior to realizing they could have the same experience of cosmic reality without them and much more stable and permanent one at that.
I never said people don't stumble before they stand or walk.

But everyone who reacted to that idea seemed to want to defend their choices and I still wonder if they know why. I could reiterate why but it would only create a disturbance in the dark side of the force.


She probably did in another lifetime. But then she wouldn't have been remembered as a saint for having artificially enhanced her heart driven desire and subsequent vision of humanitarianism.

Flipping the god switch could be dangerous. Look at what it's done to the Islamist world. But then, perhaps if, as you say, people could put aside their religious differences... (there goes a flying pig now)

I would rather people find their "reason" switch.

For individuals to have previous lifetimes requires some mechanism for keeping or transferring these past states to present ones. I don't think such mechanisms exist. A simpler metaphor is that individual rain drops return to the sea at the end of their journey. Once returned, it's impossible to tell one drop from another.

Like the experience of physical death and the reorientation of ones self into duality without automatic memory of the past. Or enlightenment to reawaken one to their past.
The definitive end to the journey is in question here.
When does one leave the ocean?

Rick said "I would rather people find their "reason" switch."

I think it most probable that some people do not have a 'reason' switch, or they have the switch but not good 'circuitry'.
Most human capabilities vary from person to person: often deficiencies or strengths are most noticeable in any one person, but more frequently the cause of less easily identifiable capabilities such as 'false conclusions' is hidden.

Good question. In a sense, one never really does, yet so many seem so disconnected. I am not continually mindful of it. Or am I?

Would you say you have a choice?

Mostly everyone brought up in todays society has their own delusions. Some are more delusional than others. In todays world, mostly all of us are encased in a thought process. For some people it is more translucent and for others it is opaque, depending on their rate of self-realization. This is what you fail to realize. Those who can realize their thought process, their projections of it, their opinions and beliefs are on the path of self-realization. Those who hold on to their delusions so closely are not. I have observed your delusions countless times yet you persist to remain encased in them and fail to realize them. I don't see you ever breaking out of your box, your attitude is that you know everything. This is the attitude of an egomaniac. Self-realization can show you this.

I can realize that everything I say here is only a manifestation, a creation by a part of me that I practice to realize. Having realized this I can drop attachment to it and carry on with my life. You continuously have something to prove, and constantly defend your belief that I have not experienced transcendental states of consciousness via entheogens. You failed to read that I stated this was only a temporary experience. I stated that this temporary experience can be re-integrated into everyday sober existence via meditation. This re-integration allows for realization of the higher self through meditation. You failed to understand this. You have not realized where I am coming from. This is how I know you lack self-realization. I know what I have experienced, you cannot tell me what I have. This is ignorance and this makes you delusional and unaware of it. You project your story onto others and if they don't agree with you they are wrong. You have not proved anything to me, you keep going in circles around yourself trying to prove the same thing you did since post one. Everything you tell me is the same, some of which I agree and some of which I don't. Quit going around in circles and let's get to the point.

Enki, why are you hiding?

If you understand my avatar so well, then please give me your interpretation on the truth of it and why you feel it is so depressing. If you cannot do this, there is no validity to any of the posts you have made towards me.

Or you can keep hiding in fear.

I have faith and hope that you will come out clean.

Or more specifically a mirrored reflection of where you currently are, with no direction to go, but imagining that there is.

This temporary experience is not a transcendental state of consciousness but an experience that you label a transcendental state of consciousness.

Anyone can integrate an experience into their lives by simple acknowledgement, it doesn't require meditation, but then you like to be dramatic.

As someone said before, know what you know, until the experience changes and you know something different.
In other words cling to your present experience and interpretation and believe you are on a path of self realization.

Now if you could just get that this applies to you, you'd stop foaming at the mouth.


Finding a universal constant is a good place to begin your search.

As an advocate of the "free will" position in the human condition, I have no choice but to say "yes." (Otherwise, I would be a liar, which I choose not to be.)

This is where we split paths..

What is the nature of transcendental consciousness?

Maharishi: It is unity consciousness, an encounter with the field of unified consciousness. In transcendental consciousness, the mind experiences itself, intelligence experiences itself. The mind is the observer of its own reality. In that state, the mind is transcendental consciousness.

Just as the quiet surface of the ocean is the source from which all waves arise, so the self-fulfilled state of mind, which we call transcendental consciousness, is the source of all activity. We call it the unified field of natural law, from which all the different laws of nature emerge and conduct their specific activities in the relative world.

Please tell me why this can't be experienced with the help of entheogens.

And don't tell me it's because entheogens induce a temporary experience. A state is a state, an experience is an experience. Why does it have to be permanent to be considered a transcendental state? Who lays this rule... you? I and many others have experienced transcendental states with the help of entheogens. Denying our experiences proves that you have not realized the nature of your consciousness and awareness. If you have then you have forgotten, and I hope for your awakening and breaking free from conditioning.

Clinging to one's experience and interpretation is not a path to self-realization. Clinging is attachment, if you do this you are cut off from potential realization. Realization occurs when there is a gap in the thought process, at this moment self-realization occurs. As this gap is cultivated into everyday existence, awareness of one's existence expands. Clinging to an experience and an interpretation is clinging to the process which is preventing this gap from coming into awareness.

Entheogens can help one to attain a large and long gap in the thought process. During this gap deep and expanded self-realization occurs as time slows down. Ask anybody who has broken through, they will tell you there was a gap in their ordinary thought process. It is too common for you to tell me this does not happen. This temporary state of deep, expanded and extended self-realization is so intense that it can manifest into everyday existence through whatever it takes to bring that "gap" of awareness into being - being aware/meditating, nature, music, yoga, taoist esoteric yoga, tantra, exercise, etc. Entheogens do not prevent one from attaining this gap. This is your belief and opinion that they do, and you fail to provide any proof towards the validity of them. Yet you remain blind to your beliefs and would never enter a vulnerable, receptive state of being.

I do not hold an interpretation for what I have experienced. I express memories of it and that is it. You cannot tell me I do not know what I have experienced. That is like me telling you that you have never walked or drank water. Those are experiences that are so real to you, that for me to deny them is absurd. I know that I have experienced ego dissolution because I have been ego-less. For you to deny this is to see through complete ignorance. You continue to prove yourself as one who is not realized, and continue to project the ego that emanates so brightly from your words.

Hehehehe!!! Good question, very good question.

I do really wonder how you dare to apply childish tactics of challenging me like in kindergarten?
And I strongly do not recommend you not to use the word fear in this context.
Have a nice day.

Because the entheogens alter the nervous system from its natural state and the experience that comes of this is conditioned.

Interesting that you missed your own advice. To break from conditioning. That would include conditioning the mind to alter its perception to create an experience rather than to allow it to awaken to that which is ever present but ignored, even in the waking state..

Boy howdy...

Making comparisons, defining ones own enlightenment, claiming to be enlightened, that is what the ego does,
Identify with the image.

What is the natural state of the nervous system?

I do believe that entheogens, under certain circumstances and for certain people, can awaken or otherwise strengthen a consciousness (or awareness of consciousness if you prefer) that is retained long after the otherwise transient entheogen experience. It is the consciousness, through direct experience, of the infinitely vast and myriad nature of consciousness. I do not think there is currently any other way to experience this consciousness (or more precisely, to become this consciousness or aware of this consciousness), except through a serious 'jolt' to the nervous system, a jolt that wakes up all the otherwise quiescent neurons, resulting in coherent brain activity that is the neural correlate for an amazing, awe-inspiring mode of expanded consciousness, a jolt which fundamentally alters one's sense of being.

Btw Joesus,

Do you take into account the opinion (including political opinion) of the Celestials you are talking about? I am just asking a question. I mean how do you regulate your relations with The Invisible Empire esp when you use your particular logo-username.





Really. You think we all shoud come intact with your mode?

Coming back to the mushrooms.

Can we draw some systematic knowledge out of that experimental observations by the Inductive Method?

How many people see the same things under the same dosage?

I should just point out that if you are considering entheogens, at least do the research to find out precisely what the risks are, and equally important, to find out exactly how your brain will be effected at the cellular, molecular, and behavioral levels. For most people, probably 99%, they should not experiment with drugs for enhancing, modifying, and more fully awakening their consciousness. For the remaining 1%, do your research. If you don't know precisely how a drug or combination of drugs will effect your brain, then it's probably best to steer clear.

Do you know how shrooms effect the brain, Enki? They're kind of a lightweight drug, right? Is it worth the bother?

For me the onset is a restlessness in the mid section of the body, like your harbouring a huge ball of energy. This strange feeling in the body usually tips you into one of two comeup-modes, and usually this point is fairly crucial, its giggles or restlessness/paranoia.

After ten to thirty minutes the visual effects take hold. This is a very slow ebbing of the vision, from the centre out. I've had this effect naturally when I've been ill with a temperature, size distortions or perspective changes. Mushrooms always give the same superficial distortions, like a mass of distorting snakes moving from the centre of the iris to behind the eyes, although they never actually get anywhere. Surfaces breath, colours seem to cycle through shades without changing colour, sizes alter without changing size, tracers appear on the edge of moving objects.

Its all a lot to take in and can be very uncomfortable because there is no off switch at this point. The best thing that can happen is you and friends laugh yourself to a self-supporting ecstacy, complete with halo's around your friends faces etc. The worst is you fear that their laughs are directed at you, become withdrawn and have a real bad time of it. Both are equally likely in the inexperienced.

If your meditating or using it in a ritual setting, this is the point where you throw off your hardwired static behaviours and thought processes. Everything around you looks and seems amazing, like a child who is discovering things for the first time (without trying to eat everything it sees ). This part of the experience is probably the most sought after, if you can be stable and have no worries, then its the most creative part of the experience. I'm often stunned into silence at this point, and in some circumstances I can't actually function because of the barrage of stimuli.

The middle to end of the trip is incredibly introspective, and I do recognise that this introspection can include things like "why don't i do better at this or that", "I wish I'd not poisoned myself, I want to sleep" or "If I did x or y, my life would be better". This is when the fear can eat you up if you let it. Meditation techiniques are very handy here, because you would do well to not get wrapped up in any of these thoughts. Its interesting to compare Buddha's story of enlightenment, and the things he has to go through, with this experience.

The final phase for me is the longest and gives you incredible insight into things. I know it sounds like a cliche, but your thought is supercharged and can run several trains of thought at once. For instance if you see a program you really enjoy normally, you will probably see it for what it is. The acting will be wooden, the script will seem obvious, the intentions of the script writer will be easily understood, the target market is obvious. Its definately a strange feeling, a kind of pompous deja vu.

The brain prefilters lots of options that are possible but unlikely to help you as an organism.

Example: your hungry, what to do?
option 1 - find food in your immediate vicinity
option 2 - take food from another person in the vicinity
option 3 - don't eat
option 4 - grow food right here and now
option 5 - eat the worms beneath your feet

Now normally a person will only have options 1 and 3 pushed into their conscious, the brain will have remembered favourable options and kept those for future reference. However all options are evaluated, but this is done subconsciuosly. The feeling on mushrooms that your filters have all been removed is extraordinary. Senses seem alight with information, and you can feel your brain fleeting across all the options available to you, something we're not used to. I believe this is where the creativity comes from, unfiltered and entirely free thought.

Now its easy for a pesimistic outlook that states "What about option 6 - kill anyone nearby and eat them". Well I've never heard of that at all, all emotions are heightened but that only makes guilt and fear of persecution even higher on your personal agenda. I'd also like to take a moment and recount a friends experience of being ill with a fever. He used to get hallucinations from the fever and at one point he was having a mental argument about whether to go and kill his step father. Something in the hallucination was causing him to wrestle with himself, whilst still understanding its all in his head and down to the fever. Sounds crazy right? Well its not uncommon for people to go into delerius self-created realities whilst ill, its only the extremity of this one which is shocking. If you've heard the phrase "lost in thought" then your halfway there. Point is, the fear of the mental instability that can come from altering consciousness is a fear of something thats not specific to mushrooms. A fever can be more deadly to all concerned.

The afterglow of the experience is easily equated to feeling the sunrise on your face after a hard night being hunted by wolves. Whether its the relief from coming back to Earth, the new personal revelations, the reconnecting back with nature or what but its a well documented feeling. Its always a positive experience.

It doesn't take a genius to see why the experience is sought after, revered and feared all at the same time, or why anyone with a tendency toward psychotic may go over the edge of sanity cliff. But no pain no gain right?

No doubt.
Maslow spoke about the Peak Experience which awakens in some the desire to pursue transcendental states of consciousness to regain the effects during the peak experience.
Here is an interesting link.
http://www.drugtext.org/library/reports/cu/CU66.html
In the report it suggests that children often enter altered states of consciousness by spinning until they fall to the ground, hyperventilating, and that people in general are seeking a more natural state of mind that will relieve them of the anxieties of stress.
Experiences included as "Altered states of Consciousness" are varied from drug induced to losing time while driving.

In order for a state of consciousness to be called a state of consciousness there is usually the subjective and objective experience that exists, and to specialize ones memory in favor of past experience does not make for a change in daily functioning.

If one is more effective in their lives when they are unburdened by stress and anxiety it would tend to point to the idea that a more natural state of the nervous system would be one that is less stressed by things that would alter the ability to function in daily activity.
If the tendency exists to escape from the activity because it is stressful through any means then what is abnormal about daily activity to motivate one to find an alternate experience?
If one can only bring a memory back with them by their means of escape then the effects are not effective enough to change the perception of activity if the process has to be repeated to gain an experience.
In order for a process to be effective the effects should be long term and lasting rather than just a memory.

I won't deny that there are certain psychological effects and physical effects in reminiscing over past experiences but to effectively change the physical and mental perceptions of activity there should be something more substantial one can draw into their waking, sleeping and dreaming experience which would sufficiently change the characteristics of these states of consciousness so that there is no need to escape activity.
Not all systems of meditation are effective enough to accomplish this and certainly no drug capable of doing this unless the drug is produced by the body and in quantity consistent with every moment, or one continually takes the drug to alter the effects of the mind and body consistently.

How do you separate your personal opinion from activity so that you may more openly experience life beyond your own identification?

No that takes more of an open mind. Generally speaking people are too attached to their own personal mode to allow for anything different, which is why they tend to get emotional and make statements like "you totally fucked this up." IF one is attached to seeing things their way then they aren't capable of seeing it any other way.

You know, you possibly reached to such a high level of ontological development in English that such an humble person like me from such a far away country is unable to understand clearly your modality.

Poor Hey Hey and me we both are not capable of seeing it in any other way.

There are two ways: or you regulate the relations mentioned above, or even such a specific username will not firewall some cybernetic phenomena. Do you understand me Mr. Andersen? It is just a recommendation from a good 'enigmatic' Enki.

You overcrowd the topic by texts which damp processes. I made that my comment with the usage of word F to draw your special attention to that problematic matter.

Yes I read something about that. Yap lightweight drug. No.

The danger springs from parallel ideas which generate and percolate like fire
spreads through barren grass.

Quit making up delusions and control your anger. You made a negative comment on my avatar, and I want to know why. Simple as that, I don't understand why you can make a comment like that and have no explanation.

There is obviously something you do not understand about my avatar. It is in no way depressing, that is only your perception. I asked you why you felt that way, yet you hid from my question like you don't have an answer.

If you make such a comment, back it up. That is all I'm asking here. No childish tactics intended.

That doesn't tell me anything.

How is this a conditioned experience if all conditioning is transcended and one is totally engulfed in the experience of the now? I can condition myself into the experience by taking an entheogen, but what happens after that is beyond conditioning. This experience allows me to more easily transcend conditioning without the use of drugs.

There is a difference between remembering and realization. Haven't understood this part yet have you?

And who are you to determine what is a state of consciousness? Everything is consciousness. Everything is energy. I do not have to remember this, I can realize it. And my entheogenic experiences have allowed me to realize more often. Realization sir, realize it.

I like that, well put.

That would be due the inability to comprehend and use the English language you were speaking of?


Why does that not surprise me

The nervous system is sufficiently altered to stress it, creating a delusional experience. The mind then after coming down attaches itself to what it believes is a transcendental state of consciousness by taking the definitions it has accumulated in the waking state and applying it to the experience.
Then as you have made it abundantly clear, you have a memory and then by the same process draw from memories to influence your state of mind and your identification with enlightenment.

What happens after that is a result of the conditioning of the nervous system by the hallucinogen.
You have some memories and now you want to convince the world you have achieved an egoless state of mind by referring to your past, a past memory that you called the now experience.
Pick it up put it down, pick it up put it down, refer to another moment in time and make a claim.


I understand what you said earlier.




You take drugs to accomplish what a child knows and lives and what anyone knows in their heart. The reason you take drugs is because you believe it will facilitate your way back when there is no where to go but to let go of the belief that anything keeps you from experiencing it. In other words the energy you experience before you break thru isn't the kind of energy that you desire to know until after you take a trip with the mushrooms.
You say it gives you a second set of eyes but what could the eye(s) possibly achieve in the containment of the energy that is everything when all you are left with is a memory of an experience. You might get a glimpse of something but as you label it, it becomes less of consciousness than you would like it to be as you attempt to create the infinite into a finite moment in time and space. Consciousness cannot be experienced but you can experience a reflection of it.
You are still maintaining an identity with an expanded state of delusion.

Where is your proof that the nervous system becomes stressed. How do you know it cannot become aware of itself. An OBE is not a delusional experience. You are delusional for thinking this.




Why is this "conditioning of the nervous system" a delusional one? Could this not be a process of the nervous system becoming aware of itself and evolving? These are all your opinions, you have not shown me any proof of your claims.




It is not just a memory of an experience I am left with. Realization and self-awareness can be brought back with me.




Sounds like another one of your opinions. We are always experiencing consciousness, we are consciousness. It is the mind/ego that cuts you off from this realization. When the mind is dissolved one enters unity consciousness, becoming of consciousness. Of course one who has not transcended ego consciousness would not understand this. This is why you believe one can only experience a reflection of consciousness. The reflection is ego.




These experiences have nothing to do with enlightenment. What I experienced was not delusion, it was real. All experience is real. I do not claim I am enlightened because of these experience, I perceive them as they are, experiences. I have memories, realizations, and interpretations of them. Those are what they are. This is not attachment if I am aware of this.

Thank you.

There are many historical examples we should pay attention to, indeed.

How do you mean?
An OBE is not a delusion as much as an hallucination is not a delusion? or,
An OBE is a realistic representation of reality? (As much as any other conscious experience?)

An OBE is an experience this is true, but it is subject to the current state of consciousness of the observer.
If one is sufficiently free from stress in the nervous system the awareness will open itself to more than it is used to experiencing and as such any experience greater than the norm can be dramatic.
In some cases such as yours the tendency to label it as higher states of consciousness is followed by the notion or identification of having gone beyond ego when one has only had a dramatic experience beyond what the nervous system and mind is normally able to comprehend, or is used to.
Often the observer takes pride in making comparisons to others experiences and enlightened texts such as you have and then waving these words in the face of others to validate their reasoning.
In other words creating a system of measure that meets their personal needs.

Have you physically measured your brainwave patterns, respiration, blood pressure and skin temperature during the drug induced state and compared it to the patterns measured while not on drugs to see where your body and mind are at in these different experiences?
Have you measured your brainwave patterns against others who achieve what they call transcendental states of consciousness to validate your claims and provide proof beyond the personal claim you make?
Have you spent any time tracking these types of physical responses in yourself and in others?
Do you know of anyone who has measured the brainwave patterns, surface temp of the skin, respiration and blood pressure while under the influence of entheogens and compared them to the brain wave patters of say a yogi or accomplished master in meditation so to establish the physical reference point of breakthru?
Where is your proof?

Someday you may not find the need to go someplace to bring it back with you, when you find it right here right now and always now. And it will probably be something different than something that could be left behind in the first place.


Sure that is why it is somewhere else, behind a veil and only experienced if one has broken thru as you so insist.
Yes that is what leaves it behind and what keeps you from experiencing it all the time contrary to your previous statement.

The absolute is not an experience, cannot be contained in an experience in fact it is beyond any experience. One can experience the potential of it in the reflection that is experience.

or Self realization

And everyone experiences differently which is why experience is not established as the constant or as consciousness. It is the observer of experience that is closer to the self tho that is just a reflection of consciousness and not consciousness itself.


Of course, everyone does, and you want to label yours as transcendental.


No the experiences themselves are not attachment one can have an experience without being attached but you measure yours, compare yours, defend yours, label them and take pride in them.
I'd say you are a tad bit attached.

I guess we have different definitions of what ego is. I have transcended my ego, or have dissolved it to an extent where my awareness was separate from it. I was not perceiving through my conditioning, rather pure unfiltered awareness.




The only reasoning I am trying to validate is how I have transcended ego consciousness via the use of meditation and entheogens. You deny this, this is why I am here.




All I know is that I have experienced consciousness expansion, OBE, NDE, ego dissolution, astral travel. I don't need proof The truth is in the experience.




Who said I needed it? You don't know what I need. It is about exploration of the self and consciousness. I am naturally attracted to myself. I am one with this earth. I don't need to be attracted to consciousness, it is my nature to be.




Awareness is consciousness that has become conscious of itself. Awareness is consciousness. Pure awareness is consciousness and I am is that. The awareness is consciousness looking back on itself.

A reflection of consciousness is only an image. That image is ego.

You are mistaking this reflection for vrittis.

In this chapter Kutastha or pure consciousness, which is eternal and immutable, is being distinguished from the reflection of pure consciousness in the modifications of the mind (vrittis) with the help of an example. When the rays of the sun fall on a wall, the wall is illumined and looks bright, though by itself the wall has no brightness. When the rays of the sun fall on a mirror and the rays reflected from the mirror fall on the wall, the wall looks even brighter. Similarly, because of the presence of pure consciousness within, the physical body acquires sentiency. When the mind functions through any of the sense organs and becomes modified into the form of an external object, the pure consciousness becomes reflected in this modification (which is known as vritti). Then the sentiency of the body becomes even more manifest because the person sees external objects, hears external sounds, etc. Even when there are no mirrors to reflect the rays of the sun the wall on which the sun’s rays fall directly remains illumined. Similarly even when there are no vrittis of the mind, pure consciousness illumines the body and gives it sentiency. Even in the state of deep sleep, when the mind and the senses are dormant, pure consciousness illumines the body.

http://www.geocities.com/snsastri/panchadasi-chapter-8.html

The vrittis are continuously active in our mind. I am not talking about the conscious or the subconscious or the unconscious, because the intensity of a vritti is different at each level. Rather we are going to look at how the vrittis affect the whole mind. In order to harmonize, sublimate and eliminate the vrittis we need to follow a process, a sequence.

http://www.yogamag.net/archives/1996/5sep96/vrittis.shtml




You are on the opposite side of the coin. You deny my experience. I seek to come to an agreement or an understanding. My intentions are not to measure, compare, or take pride in them. My intention is to harmonize.