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Hey Hey
How and why did the ability to be hypnotized come to be, in an evolutionary context?
Lindsay
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jul 18, 05:50 AM) *

How and why did the ability to be hypnotized come to be, in an evolutionary context?
As a serious student of hypnotism, for decades, it is my understanding that 'hypnosis' is a word which was coined by Dr. James Braid--a scot, who practiced in Manchester, England--in 1853.

Dr. Braid, using his knowledge of Greek, coined the word 'hypnosis' ('hypnos' is the Greek for 'sleep') in order to get the subject away from its reputation as just so much hocus pocus--the kind associated with another doctor. The other doctor was Dr.Franz Antoine Mesmer--from whose name we get the word 'mesmerism'. Interestingly, Mesmer called what he was doing, "aninmal magnetism'.

Long before Mesmer, Braid and other Europeans, spiritually-based healers, in the middle and the far east, including Jesus, made use of the the natural human ability we all have to enter the trance state. It is in this state that we can all hook into the healing power of faith, hope and love.

BTW, what do you mean by "evolutionary context"?
Rick
The evolutionary context referred to by Hey Hey is an allusion to a theoretical property of evolution: that no feature of an organism exists that doesn't have survival value in some way. What is the survival value of susceptability to hypnosis?
maximus242
Hypnosis is simply the communication with the sub-conscious, the hypnotist is simply one who induces a state where the conscious is not readily in control yet the body is not asleep. Theirfore, the sub-conscious is open to communication and so Hypnosis is meerly the communication with anothers sub-conscious. Hypnosis may not nessesarily be a evolutionary property but rather the exploitation of one. A person enters hypnotic states many times each day, they just dont realize it, it is often referred to as day dreaming, head in the clouds, looking out into nothingness. Whatever you call it, the conscious is in another place and the sub-conscious takes over while the conscious does whatever it wants to. So Hypnosis is really the human exploitation of the altered state which was never intended to put one under the influence of another. Rather to allow the consciousness to think or comtemplate things whilst not comprimising safety and continuing a task easily accomplished by the sub-conscious or to entertain and stimulate the conscious for long periods of time.

Quite simply Hey Hey, Hypnosis is nothing more than one of the four states, which is of course the Alpha State 8-12 hz
Lindsay
QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 18, 01:48 PM) *

Hypnosis is simply the communication with the sub-conscious, the hypnotist is simply one who induces a state where the conscious is not readily in control yet the body is not asleep...
Quite simply Hey Hey, Hypnosis is nothing more than one of the four states, which is of course the Alpha State 7.5-12 hz
Thanks, Max. Good comments. I just did a google and came up with the following survey, or story, of hypnosis. Richard MacKenzie is obviously in the business of selling hypnotherapy, but under the FREE RESOURCES section is one of the best short histories of it which I have seen. Check it out.

http://www.richardmackenzie.co.uk/history.htm

He mentions Dr. Milton H. Erickson (1901-1980), who was a medical doctor and a psychiatrist and one of the originators of Neuro Linguistic Programming, NLP. I have his collected papers (collected by Jay Hayley)--he never wrote a book--and books about him.

I consider Dr. Erickson one of my intellectual heroes. He practiced what I call pneumatherapy--heal the spirit first. That is, he calls our attention to the power resident in every human spirit. He understood that a sick spirit is what makes for much of the sickness of the mind and body. Interestingly, World Book Dictionary point out that before psychology was called psychology, it was called pneumatology--the study of the spirit.

OUR EARLY SPIRITUAL LEADERS LED US ASTRAY
IMO, the early churches, synagogues, temples, whatever, had spiritual leaders who put too much emphasis on the acceptance of dogmas--fixed-position thinking. Had they been wise enough to more flexible and to openly welcome somatology--the physical sciences--and the soft sciences such as anthropology, sociolology, and psychology, all churches, today, would be centres for healing of the mind, soul or spirit.

Even secular experts agree that sick minds, souls or spirits are the root cause of seventy-five per cent, or more, of all human pain and suffering and pre-mature death. We would still need help with physical problems, but much less than we now need. Think of the real "salvation"--even of our finances--there would be for all of us.

If I were in charge of training clergy, today, I would insist that all students receive a thorough grounding in Ericksonian hypnotherapy--what I call pneumatherapy. After all, in the Gospels (the good news) we read that Jesus, who obvioulsy practiced pneumatherapy, told his disciples to go, not just to preach, but to teach and heal--bodies, minds and spirits. See Luke 9, and 2 Thessalonians 5:23.

By the way, check out what Jay Hayley writes about Dr. Erickson:
http://www.erickson-foundation.org/early.htm
Lindsay
IMO, Dr. James Braid--and I am sure it was not done intentionally--made a big mistake when he gave the coined the words 'hypnosis' and 'hypnotism'--based on 'hypnos' the Greek for sleep--and gave them to what, in his time, was called mesmerism. Even today, many people think that anyone who is in a trance state is also in a deep sleep. There is also the belief that people in trances are subjects of others we call masters.

Check my next post, please.

pave
On a practical basis, hypnosis - either personally-generated or assisted - is about 2 elements of experience: maintaining concentration for a longer period of time than is more regularly experienced, and gaining access (real or metaphorical) to some internal/unconscious resources.

Putting those resources to good use is not a hypnotic phenomena per se, but can be facilitated more easily through a hypnotic-like experience.

I have been doing "hypnotic" work since the beginning of my NLP career, but haven't done a "formal" induction in the last ten years as a formal "trance" is not required to accomplish the clients' outcomes.
maximus242
Their is literatly hundreds of ways in which a person can be inducted, most only know of a few, mostly the stage hypnotists are the ones who give the idea that you need to sit in a chair and do some hokus pokus to hypnotise someone. Hypnosis is never the same each time, at least not for the good hypnotists, they adjust their technique to fit the client, this was one of Miltons core beliefs. The patient should never need to adjust to the hypnotist, the hypnotist should always work around the patient to make them comfortable, the result is a far more effective hypnosis. In this way the client remains in their comfort zone and fufills any unconcious needs that might have otherwise stopped the hypnosis. Milton demonstrated this technique in a university where a group of students tried to hypnotise this lady, they all failed miserably. Milton recognized several mistakes, including asking her to put her smoke out, instead he let her smoke while she was standing up. She was even giving pointers of what he should do, and Milton did every one, in the end she was hypnotised right on the spot through regular converstaion. The fact is that Milton understood that the sub-concious will not undergo hypnosis if something is wrong, so he always would work around the patients needs and this made him an extremly effective hypnotist.
Lindsay
QUOTE(pave @ Jul 20, 09:29 PM) *

On a practical basis, hypnosis - either personally-generated or assisted - is about 2 elements of experience: maintaining concentration for a longer period of time than is more regularly experienced, and gaining access (real or metaphorical) to some internal/unconscious resources.

=============================
By "internal resources", Pave, I presume you mean approximately what people, including me, mean when we use the term "spiritual". Some--even those who would call themselves atheists--use the term "psychological" (dealing with the interrealtionship of mental and biological functions) as if it meant spiritual. To get away from this confusion, it is my opinon that we need some new words.

WHY I FEEL THE NEED TO INVENT NEW TERMS
As you know, I am "addicted", I hope only moderately so, to inventing new terms. I invent, or coin, new words not just to impress readers, but to try and explain more precisely what it is I am trying to say. I apologize, in advance, to anyone who finds my addiction annoying.

But be this as it may, based on the word "pneumatology" (the study of the spirit)--which, BTW, IS already in the major dictionaries, including Wikepedia ( I think I put in one of the first entries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatology )--I have come up with words like "pneumatological" (dealing with the interrelationship of psychological, biolgical and spiritual functions), and "pneumatherapy"--a healing of the self (the pneuma) without the hocus pocus of hypnosis. Then the self is free to work on the mind/soul (the psyche) and the body (the soma). See 2 Thessalonians 5:23.

It is my opinion that, in common with the animal kingdom, including birds and insects. we have psyches and somas--that is, minds and bodies. However, unless anyone can prove otherwise, I do not believe that animals, etc., are not spiritual, self-aware or pneuma beings.

I say this, not because of arrogance, I trust, but because I strongly feel that most--notice that I did not say "all"--normal human beings have an awareness of the self, or the spirit and an undeerstand of the mind and the body, which seems to be unique to human beings and differs from that of animal consciousness. The anthropologist, Lewis Mumford, once wrote that "if we were just animals we would never have found that fact out."

BTW, having said the above,
I WOULD LIKE TO RETIRE THE WORD "HYPNOSIS" AND REPLACE IT WITH "GNOSIS"

Why?

Because, immediately, it would get us away from the idea that there are all-wise, all-powerful masters who assume, or are given, the power to lord it over ignorant and weak subjects expected to obey, without question, as if we were animals.

It may very well be true that there are some people who are natural and gifted teachers--of any subject--but this does not automatically give them the right to abuse this gift. It is more of a responsibility to serve humanity than a right dominate and take advantage of others.

In the same way there are those who are gifted with the natural ability to go into trances--the ability to stand outside oneself and ones circumstances. I have a daughter who, as a child, exhibited this gift. When she was seven (1963-1964), I helped her use her gift to self-diagnose and overcome a lung condition which was killing her. She began to get well overnight. Since becoming an adult--she just turned 50--as a registered massage and drug-less therapist, and homeopath, she has helped many people. She is also an artist and writer.

SVENGALI AND TRILBY MYTH
Check out
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/...em/ttrilby.html
Such gifted people need to be careful not to allow themselves to become subjects in the thrall of some master or guru, as in the story of TRILBY by George du Maurier--grandfather of the famous novenlist, Daphne du Maurier. The master subject relationship can be problematic, but it is not necessarily part of the trance phenomenon, which is still only partly understood.

IMO, the ability to go into the trance state should simply be considered a step in the direction of becoming more fully awake and--using philosophy, science and art--getting to know moral and ethical truth. As I said, perhaps a better term for this penumatological phenomenon would be 'gnosis'. It is from this Greek term that we get our word 'know'. Gnosis is related to inquiry, or investigation, by which we get "to know" that which is physically, mentally and spiritually true. Not easy, but worthwhile, don't you think.

Socrates' great "commandment" was, "Know thyself..."
Jesus said, "Know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Shakespeare, using one of the characters in his play, Hamlet, said, "This above all, to thine own self be true..."

===========
Certainly, Pave, I agree with you when you write
QUOTE
Putting those resources to good use is not a hypnotic phenomena per se, but can be facilitated more easily through a hypnotic-like experience.

I have been doing "hypnotic" work since the beginning of my NLP career, but haven't done a "formal" induction in the last ten years as a formal "trance" is not required to accomplish the clients' outcomes.
pave
I am in full agreement with max242's post.

With the NLP-crowd, the generalization is: It's all "hynosis" anyway.

While Milton is recognized as the role-model for therapeutic hypnosis, I think the public has been ill-served by having him tagged with such a moniker.

The more practical and useful label to hang on Milton might have been "Supremely Effective Communicator".

(He would have put "Ronnie" in the shade!) smile.gif
Guest
What is the role of hypnosis in the evolutionary process ?
Evolution of human beings is the evolution of their consciousness; it is the process of awakening, of becoming more aware, more and more conscious, and one cannot become conscious through an unconscious process -- consciousness does not evolve unconsciously.
In our world there are too many people living under a permanent hypnosis, in the state of unconsciousness, or partial consciousness, because their awareness has been lulled and dulled by conditioning and routine...
And hypnotizing them even more !?
maximus242
Thats not hypnosis, its manipulation. In North America today most manipulation is carried out through several avenues:

- Sociology
- Policy
- Law
- Media

This is the basis for manipulating the masses, sociology is literatly the study of people interacting and much of it aspertains to how to manipulate them. Policy is governmental policy making such as "all persons under the age of 16 must attend school", of course public school tells you only what the government decides you should know, rich people dont have their kids attend private school just cause they have money to burn, their are major diffrences in whats taught. The law is used for fear and to cover up the fact that the government breaks the law many,many,many times each day and covers it up by making seemingly complex statutes that no one but lawyers can seem to understand. Media is just an extension of sociology, major network shows, even online groups like MySpace are used for research and propaganda.

This is how the pros do it, they dont need hypnosis because they know much more effective ways of manipulating that are far easier, the diffrence is it requires major money to back some of that shiznak up.
Guest
A fully-awaken, a fully-conscious person cannot be manipulated;
To manipulate a person, you have to make her/him unconscious or hypnotized first.
pave
As a broadcaster of over 40 years experience, I can also comment on how the media manipulates and, more importantly, how (some of) the people in the media manipulate. There is a distinction! The former has to do with the brain-accessing of electronic media and the latter with specific communicative distinctions that can be exploited.

Meanwhile, in my NLP career, one of the statements I use that has become somewhat of a cliche in the field is about "hypnosis".

When someone inquires as to whether they are going to be put "into a trance", the response is: "No. My job is to get you out of the one you're already in!"

(It's kinda cute.... and it also has some practical applications.) :-)
maximus242
QUOTE(Guest @ Jul 21, 04:36 PM) *

A fully-awaken, a fully-conscious person cannot be manipulated;
To manipulate a person, you have to make her/him unconscious or hypnotized first.


...HAHAHAHA, man it would be wonderful if that were true, it is however not. Let me give you an example, recently an experiment was done where people walked around with gasmasks and bio suits, there was nothing wrong or any catastrophy, however a insurmountable amount of people reported feeling sick and ill afterwards, even though their was nothing wrong, their was also large surge of doctors appointments in the area the next day.. That is just the basics of manipulation, it leads down a far more sinister path.
pave
So. A fully-conscious person cannot be manipulated.

Well, as my friend, "maximus", has said: Hahahahahahaha!

Tell that to the advertisers, the media and the religious-wingnuts... of all stripes.

The only use of "consciousness" is to keep track of what's going on in the environment through semsory input. "Traffic" may be exempted. smile.gif
Lindsay
QUOTE(Guest @ Jul 21, 04:36 PM) *

A fully-awaken, a fully-conscious person cannot be manipulated..."


As Max's example points out, the challenge is: How many such people are there? Is it possible to find such a person. Other than you and me, does any such a person really exist? laugh.gif
pave
I don't know about you, Lindsay, but I - sure as hell - can be tricked..... and regularly! smile.gif

Meanwhile, as to your comments of a couple of posts ago re: "personal resources":

It is a presupposition of NLP that most of the resources a person requires (other than specific knowledge or skill-sets) to make personal changes or development are already within the individual!

Where NLP or hypnosis (or some combination) come in is in assisting the individual to gaining access to those resources and in applying those resources to accomplish a well-formed and appropriate outcome.

Meanwhile, since those "resources" are difficult to qualify or quantify, the individuals's subjective understandings will be playing a large part in whatever processes are undertaken.

Further, one can speculate as to the source of these resources and this may (or may not) bring in a "spiritual" element to the mix.

I think it is also prudent to point out that, for some, the very idea of hidden, unrecognzed, buried or unconscious "resources" is a bit of a stretch - at best. For those who have difficulty in accepting the concept as a valid, human potential - a strong metaphor can be constructed that supports an "as-iff" position. And the work can continue.

I am grateful, however, to note that these (optional) understandings are not required for any intervention or exercise to be successful.

In some cases, abject "manipulation" can be successful, but "cooperation" is far more expedient.... and fun. smile.gif
Lindsay
QUOTE(Guest @ Jul 21, 01:26 PM) *

...Evolution of human beings is the evolution of their consciousness; it is the process of awakening, of becoming more aware, more and more conscious......consciousness does not evolve unconsciously.
In our world there are too many people living under a permanent hypnosis, in the state of unconsciousness, or partial consciousness, because their awareness has been lulled and dulled by conditioning and routine...And hypnotizing them even more !?
Thanks Guest (which one, and/or from where?). It is always risky to come up against ideas, even wrong ideas, which have dominated our thinking for some time. But based on your comment, I am going to start of new topic the aim of which is to retire the word 'hypnosis'.

Like many words, 'hypnosis', now, has too much baggage--too much of the idea of hocus pocus and manipulation about it. Furthermore, it doesn't even come close to describing the whole trance-like phenomenon it was it was intended to describe when it was invented by Dr. James Braid, in 1843, to replace 'mesmerism'.

Here is the new topic I propose: Let's Retire the word 'Hypnosis" and Replace it with 'Knowsis'. I offer it as meaning a self-induced--though a guide or teacher is not prohibited--state of conscious awareness in which we can at least begin to investigate and get to know what It means to be a fully functioning--physically, mentally and spiritually--human being.
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