I've been thinking about this for a long time, but putting my thoughts into words is often difficult, because words cannot express fully what I mean when I type them. Therefore, I shall be brief and to the point.

Some people consider Death to be the end of all. My question is this, if we die, can there really be nothing else? Your personal body and conscious may be gone... however, there remains consciousness elsewhere in the world. Can we really distinguish between what is our personal consciousness, and that of the sum of all? Would you know if your conscious rejoined the "one" or "all", and if it then went on to become a "personal "conscious of a new being?

Even in the simplest forms we DO live on after death. We give life to plants and animals through our decaying in the ground. Those who are cremated, become fuel for fire, converting to heat and light.

The laws of conservation try to say that all energy is always conserved in the Universe. Einstein theorised that Energy and Mass are interchangable. This again, agrees that we therefore must live on in an Energy form after death (or, in the case of bones remain as mass).

It is a mix of these ideas, that make me think, that even if the "personal" singular being dies, we will be alive again in another "personal" singular form. It kind of makes the people who remember past lives make a little sense.

I know it's a muddle of ideas, and, i'm sure, it is flawed. However, this is the end result I have arrived at, and I thought I'd share it.

If anyone has any comments, they would be welcome.

All that we are (our thoughts, mind, and identity), is structured mass-energy interactions, or form. When we die, that structure dissolves, even though the mass-energy is conserved and will go on to take other forms. This notion that our essence is substance that defies Death is a fiction. The shortness of your life should make it more valuable. Attempts to get past Death through immortality reek of desperation and the "christian afterlife".

Some people incorrectly interpret consciousness as a fundamental substance that not only survives Death, but that forms our essence (hence their conclusion is that we survive Death). However, this reasoning is false and is due to ignorance of what consciousness really is because it incorrectly assumes that consciousness is a substance, when it is really a form. These people will often search their own consciousness, even meditate, and because they obviously experience consciousness, they conclude that consciousness is a fundamental substance because they are ignorant of the true causes of consciousness, which arises through structured mass-energy interactions. Consciousness is a form, not a substance. Hence, consciousness does not survive Death.

hmm, death within itself is only a illusion, like time we do not die nor does time move on, only change from one form to another, just as matter changes giving the illusion of time, so too does lifes changes give the illusion of death.

I agree with your conclusion, but not with your premise. Our disagreement may be due to a technicality of terminology. I use the term "substance" in the philosophical sense meaning "something that has existence." In my scheme, there are two types of substance, mass-energy and consciousness. However, that simplistic scheme is clearly incomplete as consciousness obviously arises from matter and energy interactions, as you state. However, the exact process of consciousness creation is still mysterious to science so I am forced for the time being to adopt my dualistic philosophical scheme.

I regard it as obvious from subjective experience that consciousness is something that has existence, and can even exist in a pure state without form (structure). For example, when I am conscious of doing arithmetic, whether I am adding or subtracting, the consciousness of each experience is similar of substance but of different form.

However, being strongly dependent on the living, metabolizing, brain substrate for existence, consciousness clearly passes from existence when the body dies.

Tangentially, just as mass and consciousness have existence in my philosophical ontology, form itself does not. All forms are embodied in substance in some way, and have no independent existence.

This is a projection of both meditation and the experience of meditation.
Consciousness is formless, when it arises into awareness of form it takes shape according to structured mass-energy relationships of the natural laws of perception. Form is a perception and becomes a reality thru belief.
Consciousness is a word given to the absolute which resides in all matter which is not random matter but created matter, matter that has both direction and intelligence. Consciousness does not survive death because death is an illusion of mind created realities which are constantly changing through evolution of awareness and belief.

Death is an experience and like all experiences they are perceptions of belief, they are the results of expectations held in the mind at different levels of cognitive awareness.
Those that are buried in the awareness surface when they are ripe, when the mind is swirling in its myriad of thoughts that are stored through beliefs. The accumulation of belief builds a mountain that surfaces amongst the random scatterings of thoughts and ideas.
When the mind is not focused the perception is that things happen randomly rather than through the choices to follow thoughts and project them into reality. Death to the surface level of the mind appears to be the end of what is inside the object that has died. Be it plant mineral or animal there lives within all things intelligence. It does not die, it transforms, but the eyes do not see the transformation when it is blinded by the programs of belief.

Those that experience consciousness share a resonance of a formless, living presence regardless of the differing experiences and descriptions that follow the individual personality or the flavor of the individual.
The recognition is in the resonance not the description of the form that is relayed as experience. Awareness meets the bindu point where formlessness appears as form and stands in two worlds, one of form and one without form, this is the experience of unity, when the basic elements are reduced to their point of origin and all things are equal in both experience and resonance, or knowing, that precedes individual explainations and experiences of reality.

Quotes: "Some people incorrectly interpret consciousness as a fundamental structure...Consciousness is a form, not a substance."

"...as consciousness obviously arises from matter and energy interactions, as you state."

Consciousness is a reality inherent in existence; it is the fundamental thing in existence -- all existence is nothing but consciousness.
Consciousness is a self-aware force of existence; and it is not only the power of awareness of self and things, it is also a dynamic and creative energy, the energy which creates the worlds. It is the energy, the motion, the movement of consciousness that creates the universe and all that is in it; the macrocosm and the microcosm are nothing but consciousness arranging itself.
Consciousness is usually identified with mind, but mental consciousness is only the human range which does not exhaust all the possible ranges of consciousness. There are ranges of consciousness above and below the human range, with which the normal human has no contact.
The ordinary consciousness is that in which one knows things only or mainly by the intellect and the senses, and only by their outward manifestations and results, and the rest by inferences from these data.
There may be some play of mental intuition, deeper psychic seeing, etc., but in the ordinary consciousness these are incidental and do not modify its fundamental character.

Concerning the first part of the quotation, the strengths and weaknesses of panpsychism have been addressed elsewhere on this site. In short, if everything is consciousness, then why is so much of mental processing unconscious? Recognition of the importance of the unconscious is Freud's major contribution.

Concerning the second part of the quotation, that's an interesting hypothesis. Is there any evidence for believing it?

This is a good topic, nice avatar Rick.

Thanks, Max. That's Ron Arias, a reporter for People magazine watching in the red shirt.

In Involution or Creation, Spirit( the Supreme or Cosmic Intelligence/Consciousness) goes through stages of manifestation and modifies Itself -- the first thing the pure Spirit creates is soul,
which then creates mind, which then creates life; or, in other words, It emanates into Causal Plane, then into Mental Plane, then into Astral Plane, then into Material subtle/etheric, and finally into Material dense.
It can manifest in Itself innumerable possibilities, including something that seems to be the opposite of Itself, something in which there can be darkness, inertia, insensibility, unconscience, disharmony. What we call the Unconscious is the basis of the material plane where that same Consciousness is hidden or lies concealed as the non-being.
It is this Consciousness which modifies Itself so as to become on the Truth plane the supermind, on the mental plane the mental reason, will, emotion, sensation, on the lower planes the vital or physical instincts, impulses, habits of the obscure force... To the Infinite Consciousness -- this omnipotent self-consciousness and omniscient self-energy -- both static and dynamic are possible.
What is the Subconscious ? It is the submental base of the being and it is made up of impressions, instincts, habitual movements, etc. When the Higher Consciousness is established in the waking plane, It goes down into the subconscious, and then further down, into the Unconscious, as it is called, though it is not really unconscious at all, but rather a complete subconscious, a suppressed or involved consciousness
in which there is everything, but nothing is expressed. The subconscious lies between this unconscious and the conscious mind, life and body. It contains the potentiality of all the primitive reactions to life which struggle out to the surface from the dull and inert strands of matter and form, by constant development, a slowly evolving and self-formulating consciousness. But also all that is consciously experienced sinks
down into the subconscious, and these submerged imprecise memories and obscure yet obstinate impressions of experience can come up at any time as dreams, as mechanical repetitions of past thoughts, feelings, actions, -- as "complexes" exploding into action. The subconscious is the main cause why all things repeat themselves and nothing ever gets changed, except in appearance.
All that is suppressed without being wholly got rid of sinks down there and remains as seeds ready to sprout up any moment.

We arise in the universe, and into the universe we cease. Why would there be any reason to worry?

This is an assumption that you can't back up. You are ignorant of the causes of consciousness and instead of admitting your ignorance, you turn to unsubstantiated and improbable beliefs.

guest...you have a solid understanding of the subconsicous mind...which is the undercurrent of all percieved consicous choices...the subconscious mind...must be 'accessed' and understood...in which to realize our beingness...

That'd be a choice, right Dianah?

that would be a PERCIEVED choice...Joesus...of the intellect...that cherishes choice...ya know...the wave upon the ocean...that can only see the wave that it percieve itself to be...

There is no perception without choice. There is no being without awareness and recognition, which is perception. And no approach to witnessing or recognition without making choices.
Why separate Consciousness that is formless with that which appears to have form and exists as the intellect?

More unsubstantiated and improbable claims

We are all waves in the Universal Ocean of Consciousness

"There is only Consciousness as Such in all directions, absolute and all-pervading, radiant through and the source and suchness of everything that arises moment to moment, utterly prior to this world but not other than this world. All things are just ripples in this pond; all arising is a gesture of this One.

A person awakens, as if from a long and foggy dream, to find what s/he knew all along: s/he, as a separate self, does not exist. The turning point comes when the person sees that everything s/he does is nothing but wave-jumping, resisting, moving away from now in search of wetter waves...The very seeing of the resistance is the dissolution of the resistance, and the acknowledgement of the Unity.
The understanding of this secret resistance is the ultimate key to enlightenment.

Freud, master researcher of the shadow, stated, "The whole of psychoanalytic theory is in fact built up on the perception of the resistance exerted by the patients when we try to make them conscious of their unconscious. In our exploration of the shadow, we saw this resistance pop up everywhere. This resisted material then becomes part of a person´s shadow..."

Quotes taken from The Ultimate State of Consciousness, "NO BOUNDARY" by Ken Wilber

"The diversity of manifestation is simply due to the difference in the degree of manifestation of the Soul. All the various forms of cosmic energy, such as matter, thought, force, intelligence and so forth, are simply the manifestations of this Cosmic Intelligence.
Everything, the whole universe, is the creation, projection, of this Cosmic Intelligence/Consciousness, or Creator Himself. Everything is this Infinite Cosmic Intelligence unfolding Itself.
Involution is the materialization of the Spirit, and evolution is the spiritualization of matter."

Patanjali

In perfect stillnes there is no movement, no thing, no root, no peak, no understanding.
When the stillness moves into activity understanding follows choice.

"The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."
Matthew 6:22.Cf. Luke 11:34-36






"Purpose," artha, also means, "cause," "reward," "advantage," "use," etc.
"Its purpose is born," artha bhavanam, can also be translated, "Its purpose aligns with Being."

There are four primary aims of human life, according to the most ancient understandings of the enlightened. The first of these is known as Dharma. Dharma is the path of life that is aligned with the upward current of creation, the Natural Laws that uphold the structure of the Universe (see III.14, commentary).
Artha, the second goal of life, is to understand one's purpose, one's individual meaning, source and goal. Counting this sutra, Pataajali mentions Artha no less than nineteen times in the Yoga Sutras, demonstrating the vital significance of mastering full knowledge of one's individual purpose in the scheme of Creation.
The third aim of life, Kama, is desire. Mastering Kama means that every desire is life-supporting for oneself and everyone else. It is never possible to have a desire that is not in harmony with the Divine Plan for Creation.
The fourth aim, Moksa, is liberation or enlightenment and is of course the aim of the entirety of the Yoga Sutras, of Yoga in general, of all true meditation, of prayer, of Ascension, of the Science of Union.
All four of these aims are deeply intertwined; it is not possible to realize one fully without also mastering the other three; any step toward one is a step toward all. If any one leg of a table is pulled, the other three obediently follow.
If the four aims of life could be compared to the flowing of a river, Dharma would be the path the river follows, Artha would be the direction the river flows, Kama would be the impelling force of the water, and Moksa would be the goal of the river, the Unbounded ocean.
Whether one knows anything of the goal or not, effortless flowing with the river of life will carry one to the goal, for every desire is at its root a manifestation of Cosmic Desire and the ultimate purpose of all creation is indissolubly linked to every aspect of creation through the Universal vibration, OM.
Life, therefore, is supremely simple -- one need do nothing but let go; the fundamental forces of Natural Law take over and bring one to enlightenment

"Be still and know that I am God." PSALMS 46:10.

It's just a choice.

Warm greetings, Joesus !

"When the stillness moves into activity understanding follows choice." ?

Do you mean that choice is initially made without full awareness, and only afterwards understood ?

By the way, beautiful quotes from Yoga Sutras !

THE FOUR POSSIBLE STATES OF HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS

Each human has the capacity to experience four states of consciousness, yet only two states are experienced in ordinary life; the other two states are rare and intermittent.
These four states are cumulative, that is, they are added to each other.
Each state has a range of values with a threshold at the transition from one state to another.
Each state can see all the states lower than itself.

FIRST STATE = SLEEP AT NIGHT
* dreams
* vague impressions
* imagination
* identification
* period when organism recharges accumulators

SECOND STATE = WAKING SLEEP
* usual human state of our daily lives
* characterized by imagination, lying, identification
* creates more or less permanent memories in the lower centers, depending on the depth of impressions

TRIRD STATE = SELF-AWARENESS
* rare
* usually occurs in moments of extreme danger or extreme emotion
* creates an out-of-time memory
* can see the truth about oneself
* higher emotional center operating
* can be attained by spiritual practice

FOURTH STATE = OBJECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS
* extremely rare
* creates an out-of-time memory
* can see the truth about everything existing
* higher intellectual center operating
* cosmic, divine consciousness
* can be attained by spiritual practice, in mystery school, or by divine grace

Fourth Way, Gurdjieff - Ouspensky School

In Vedantic classification the four states of consciousness are:
* jagrat, or the ordinary waking state
* swapna, or sleep with dreams
* sushupti, or dreamless sleep
* turiya, or union with Absolute

I mean choice is made in all states of consciousness.
Even in Brahman, the mind is attuned to the desires that unfold from the absolute and as some believe there is a surrender to that which implies that being, greater than the object or person surrendering, the reality is ,That is the person or object moving, presenting selected desires to play with the gunas or natural laws of that sphere of existence. It is precise rather than random.

In the bigger picture the natural unfoldment of the absolute/consciousness itself does not occur in a single sphere of existence but through all at the same time and as such they are precisely unfolding as is necessary to achieve results to the affects of each desire to create experience. As such consciousness is the creator of expereince and the witnesser rather than just the witnesser to creation happening at random.

Just as we are the creators of our own reality, what we create is within us, all of it, but it does not unfold into experience without the creation of time and order.
As we expand the intellect to observe the inner self and understand the Self what we know of the self does not have to continue to unfold itself through karmic action, it is known and understood. Then as the awareness expands into the sphere of existence the self becomes all of humanity and the object of desire is to know that self and serve that self in the same way the individual self came to know the ego self.
To surrender itself through choice, to align with the Self and bring the self through the experience of ascension to achieve the same 4 primary goals that are described in the yoga sutras. One is still active in the process of Dharma, artha, karma and moksa.

Unity expands by unfolding its different aspects, Brahman, the miracle power, immortality and Krishna,
just as awareness of the absolute arises through the choices made from sleeping dreaming and waking states of consciousness. When the perpetual awareness of the absolute is stabilized to move into Union then Union is stabilized by refining the intellect through choice to draw the union of the self and the Self into greater experience.

There are many paths (Choices) in life but not all lead to perpetual awareness of the absolute Self.
There are many paths in the awareness of the absolute but not all choices expand that awareness into Union.
There are many paths in Union but not all choices lead to Brahman, or the miracle power or immortality of the physical body and Krishna consciousness.
Choice expands with expanding awareness and becomes more important as we evolve in our own awareness of the absoute Self.

Joesus, have you read or studied Spinoza's Ethics? For the benefit of the mathematically-minded here, can you axiomatize your worldview in the manner of Spinoza's Ethics? The benefits of axiomatization are many.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would appear that one of your axioms (i.e., assumptions) is that consciousness is the fundamental substance. We would still need to define substance and consciousness. Notwithstanding, the assumption of consciousness as fundamental substance can be called into question and it seems more desirable to be able to derive this as a proposition instead of making it an assumption (i.e., axiom). Can you do this? If not, then your system is built on top of unsubstantiated assumptions.

Joesus, You have clarity of vision and spiritual insight ... yet, You say, "...just as awareness of the absolute arises through the choices made from sleeping, dreaming and waking states of consciousness..."
Awareness of the Absolute cannot arise through the choices made in these states of consciousness... It arises from an uninterrupted state of self-awareness, when we transcend intellectual and emotional realms,
when we enter the realm of pure awareness with no movement of thought, emotion, or desire.
The sages say, "Remain choiceless! You choose because you do not see clearly. It does not really matter from a spiritual perspective what choice happens." The wise do not regard themselves as doers of their actions or thinkers of their thoughts --
thoughts and actions happen as naturally as the wind blows and the rain falls. They are at One with the Will of God and the flow of Life.

"when the stillness moves into activity understanding follows choice."

If by stillness You mean what I have stated above, whatever we do from this supra-mental or enlightened state of consciousness is impregnated with this consciousness, this supreme understanding.

Dianah, well said !

lucid dream,
Have You read or studied Vedanta, Patanjali, Shankara, sri Aurobindo, Ken Wilber, Gurdjieff, et., etc. ?
Have You had the experience of an uninterrupted self-awareness ?

Beliefs
nothing, it wasn't anything other than a thought in the first place.

The fundamental forces of natural law is a platform of support not the originator of action or result


The realization of natural law is not the realization that you are bound by a force of nature that is stronger than your awareness or you. You are bigger than natural law.
Which is why Arjuna was told by Krishna in the story of the Bhagavadghita to be without the Gunas (the forces of nature, the laws of cause and affect.

It is not that you have no choice, the meaning is that you are not subject to anything outside of yourself.

Once you become the Self all desire and action is yours because there is no separation, there is only One.


If I did this would you take my word for it that I have?
Would I have to do this according to your terms and conditions?


Transcending these states takes discipline to turn the mind away from the habitual patterns of thought and belief that are the subjective and objective experiences of waking sleeping and dreaming.
This does not just happen.

The Sages say alot of things and interpretation is one of the downfalls of taking these words and making them absolute statements to fit into ones presen understanding of life.
I choose because I can.
No they don't, because they do not see anything happening that is not the absolute. Action does not imply a direction that has affect in the terms of positive and negative. They see themselves as creator and created. They also imply in the Brahma Sutras that any definition fails to describe Brahman which is why the term neti, neti. But they who say this have written hundreds of thousands of texts describing enlightenment and the path to enlightenment.
The greatest masters have surrendered themselves by their own choice to stay with humanity to tell of their own experience and urge others to follow a path of choice to see and experience the reality of themselves and of life.



Will is desire in action, desire is not random, there is a structure to the universe.

By stillness I mean the absolute still potential of the absolute. The action is the absolute potential expanding into experience and awareness.
The absolute is both still and silent as well as active. The natural laws that support the awareness of activity or of conscious witnessing itself is the nature of intelligence, for lack of a better word, it signifies direction, love, the ability to create and experience.
The impulse of consciousness experiencing itself is both in its nature and the action is within the nature of choice to follow through into spheres of creation. Maintianing the spheres of existence is intelligence in action and the choice to maintain or discreate is also within the nature of consciousness.

Choice is not a word that is defined to the waking state realities. Expand yourself beyond what you have learned and bring the absolute into what you have learned so that you do not limit your experience to your definitions.

"Will is desire in action..."

There are 4 planes of Creation/Involution:
*The Causal Plane, or the realm of will, the world of emanation; it contains a spark that brings things into manifestation.
* The Mental Plane, or the world of creation, the universe of thought, for which our brain is a perceiving sensory organ.
* The Astral Plane, or the world of formation containing matrices of that which is tangible or material; it is a world of desire, emotion.
* The Material Plane, which has 2 levels: the subtle/etheric and the dense.

So, Joesus, as You see, Will and desire belong to different planes. Will, or divine flame, or KA, the primary agent in the process of creative manifestation, engages mind and desire to accomplish Its Work, for any creation requires the interaction of three elements.

As to Gunas and Bhagavad Gita ... just expanding what You have said...
Gunas, material qualities or modes of nature, also states of mind or attitudes, are earthly qualities; 3 gunas bind our spirit to the body and keep it there.
Bhagavad Gita says: "Those who can conquer the gunas are free from birth, old age, disease.., and go to heaven." When one is completely free from gunas, one is neither a sattvika, nor a rajasika, nor a tamasika.
When one stands above gunas and sees everything as One, when one treats everybody and everything the same way, when one is not proud when praised, angry when insulted .., one has overcome gunas.

Action includes choice.
the idea of being choiceless is only a suggestion to the mind which is limited to the surrender of impulse to belief, habit, feelings and reason. It points the way toward surrender to that which is beyond the present experience.

Will and desire exist in all planes of existence. The intellectual dissection of existence into separate planes feeds the mind that is attached to accumulating knowledge of existence and the formation of natural laws and their boundaries. It is useful and necessary in evolution of thought and action through choice.

To be beyond the gunas is to be beyond cause and affect in terms of limits and definitions but not beyond the experience of cause and effect and the limits of boundaries. It is to be in the world but not of it.
But there exists an entirely different set of natural laws.

Humility does not have boundaries or restraints, in action, experience or feelings other than in the mind that projects boundaries of action, experience, feelings, experiences and, their appearances.
In other words being beyond the gunas is much more than not being prideful or treating others equally.

I have read all you mention and more. I have had experiences and levels of awareness you most likely cannot even begin to fathom. Your point being what?

I'm not sure what you mean by your questions or by your reference to 'terms and conditions'. I'm just curious to see your system (or worldview) distilled down to the essentials, without unnecessary verbiage.

"Will and desire exist in all planes of existence."

When Buddha spoke of nirvana -- which literally means without flame, or the extinction of the flame -- did He not mean that in higher state of consciousness one is not bound by desires ? In his state there are no waves or ripples of thoughts, desires, emotions...

"Intellectual dissection of existence into separate planes..." It is not a dissection, nor is it intellectual. Existence is multidimensional, there are planes and planes of manifestation, subtler and denser, with no clear-cut boundaries... It´s more like planes within planes, or like Ken Wilber defines them: The psychic energy field surrounds and envelops (includes and transcends)
the astral field, which surrounds and envelops the etheric, which surrounds and envelops the physical...

Being beyond gunas in living in the Spirit -- beyond the astral or emotional energy field; it is the the fifth dimensional frequency which supports Love and Light of Creation. And one cannot enter this frequency in a state of fear, stress, or other third dimensional frequencies. That´s why Bhagavad Gita says that conquering the gunas is freeing oneself from the earthly attitudes, states and emotions.

lucid dream,
If You´ve done all that and more, why are You unaware of Consciousness ?

How many words am I allowed?
Can I use as many as Spinoza?

You have already told me that you have based your progression on dissatisfaction.
I don't turn my attention to expectations or conditions I turn mine to the absolute.


I didn't say anything about being bound by desire. Desire is a natural state of being active, it is the foundation of activity and of the nature of God.

Reaching a state of nirvana is not essential to establish higher states of consciousness beyond waking dreaming or sleeping. Each state of consciousness has its corresponding state in the physiology. This is how a major state of consciousness is distinguished from a merely altered state such as those produced in biofeedback, rebirthing or hypnosis. To qualify as a unique state of consciousness, the subjective and objective experience must be different. Patanjali wrote his yoga sutras to establish this distinction.

Buddha having described nirvana lived and mingled in the awareness of the those in lower states of awareness to speak of a condition beyond their present state of awareness that exists in the belief of separation and suffering. In that he did not suffer nor did he bind himself to the desire of God to exalt God consciousness. He lived the desire of God to expand all things within the nature of the absolute one.

He brought with him the stillness of the absolute rather than leaving the activity to sit in stillness.
In meditation one can sit in absolute stillness, but in activity if one chooses to participate in the relative which includes all feelings then one experiences all there is to experience of the human body, the mechanism still works. Buddha had feelings as did Jesus, but niether of them were bound by their experiences of those feelings. The mechanism was experienced as the mechanism rather than the point of reference in being.

I am very aware of [C]onsciousness; I just do not maintain unwarranted assumptions such that consciousness underlies all. I readily admit my ignorance concerning the causes and nature of consciousness. To do otherwise is to be ignorant of one's ignorance, which I am not. If someone can justify the assumption of consciousness underlying all, then out with the explanation, but I have heard none so far, but have rather only heard solipsistic pseudo-philosophy and pseudo-spirituality. I have yet to hear a legitimate justification for the assumption that consciousness underlies all, or any explanation of the nature or causes of consciousness. I have thrown down the gauntlet, now I await your response. Of course, you will fail because your assumptions merely reflect your personal wishes and ignorance. If I am incorrect, then prove me wrong by justifying your assumptions and/or rigorously explaining the causes and nature of consciousness beyond your myopic solipsistic experiences.

Just because you have the experience of something being true does not make it so. For example, just because you have an experience of 'Oneness' and experience its truth does not mean everything is of that 'Oneness'; it only means that you have experienced a state characterized by 'Oneness'. To extrapolate one's myopic conscious experience onto everything that is, is simply wrong. It is delusion, and I have seen many deluded people speak here.

The difference between me and the deluded is that I have too much respect for the truth to compromise for delusion and [S]elf gratification. I can safely say that most people's identification with the Self is mere delusion. You may have experienced a higher level of awareness, but this does not imply you have experienced some Self that underlies everything else. To believe such fantasies is unwarranted and irresponsible, and it reflects a profound disrespect for the truth.

Let us speak the truth. This begins by identifying unwarranted assumptions and extrapolations from your experience. Joesus' One is one such delusion, for example, for it can have no basis in experience since extrapolating from said experience to all that exists is simply wrong and irresponsible.

If your experience of Truth exists, does it not exist by your own definitions of the cause and effect of beliefs translated into experiences that exist as a result of your own thoughts?
Would it not be arguably acceptable to conclude that what you focus on grows?
If the underlying system of creation supports all thoughts which in your determination produces delusions based on thought then all thoughts are supported equally.
The underlying reality of support of creation is neither biased or invested, it equally gives to all according to the desire or corresponding thought.
The reality then of Consciousness cannot be contained in definition but it can be pointed to in any experience and united with any other experience manifest in form regardless of the mechanical aspects of personality.

If you don't allow yourself to appreciate what you experience then you won't allow others to appreciate what they experience.
Simple appreciation does more to open the doors of possibility than the closed doors of dissatisfaction do in negating the simple evidence that is presented in the mechanics of desire and creation.

You said that you have had experiences that guest could not imagine.
Isn't this an assumption based on your own beliefs that they do not perpetuate themselves other than in your memory and that they follow the thoughts or beliefs of your past condition of awareness?
The fact is you don't believe they were real and you don't believe anyone else would think they were either.
You can't prove anything of your experience, you can talk about it but that is it. Unless someone could jump in your mind there is no way you can produce repeatability in the way you seek to substantiate God or consciousness or unity of all things.

Regardless of your beliefs. There is something that you know that does not go away. It can be denied and ignored but it does not go away. Once you get in touch with that it doesn't matter whether anyone else believes it or not. Beliefs are part of the surface action of the mind, that part that whirls 100,000 thoughts in a day but experiences no peace in that storm of thoughts. There is no satisfaction or hope of satisfaction at that level of thought.

to say that nothing exists but consciousness is analagous to a snake biting its tail and saying nothing exists but 'snakeness'. Completing the circle does not mean that nothing exists besides the circle.

What we infer from our own experiences we may not extrapolate to everything that exists. I understand the temptation to do so, but it is dishonest.

The guru who believes consciousness underlies everything I rightly regard as delusional. They have chosen to accept the delusion. I have chosen to reject it (or more precisely, to remain sceptical of it). Who is the wiser? The one who acknowledges ignorance and recognizes the causes behind said ignorance, or the one who tries to hide it through dogma and unwarranted assumptions?

This is your belief why accept it in favor of any other?
It's not dishonest, dishonesty infers that there is a greater truth that exists in awareness and one purposely covers that truth with a false truth.
If there is a greater truth then the natural tendency is to follow that truth. What we infer from our own experience cannot be forced upon another. The guru who tries to influence another from their own experience does so in vain and is no guru.

The key here is that you insist that thousands of years of cognitive revelation by those who choose not to follow the herd in accepting dogma having come to the same conclusion is irrelevant.
Your rejection is personal not universal.
Who is the wiser? Why should your opinion be a determining factor?

Joesus, truth is not a popularity contest. Not all mystics subscribe to the "consciousness underlies all" dogma. Samkhya Yoga provides an example.

You didn't answer my question.
What makes your opinion the determining factor.
Your just providing examples of differing views, highlighting your viewpoint. What makes you so special?

the determining factor is logic and reason, both of which I try to employ for evaluating the validity of opinions or proposed worldviews. Because I have logic and reason on my side, my viewpoint is not just personal.

As You know, Joesus, the greatest contribution of Buddha to humanity is His discovery of the cause of human suffereng and His teaching about the liberation from suffering and attaining supreme happiness. You also know that He identified suffering with desire, ill will, and ignorance.
His Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path teach to break the ten fetters of suffering and ignorance and to attain Wisdom, or the ability to see Truth of things, to see things as they really are.
The Way of the Arhat, or the Perfect One, is the way of the one who has overcome impurities of body, mind, speech and action. The Way of the Bodhisattva is the noblest of all, and You are on this Way ( You know that ).

"Reaching a state of nirvana is not essential to establish higher states of consciousness..."
The highest state of Consciousness has the qualities of nirvana.

"He lived the desire of God to expand all things..."
Or, rather, the Will of God to expand all things...? Will belongs to a higher order of things.


Lucid dream,
Are You still wave-jumping and resisting ???

You demand justification of consciousness, legitimization of consciousness, and You insist that the determining factor for this should be logic and reason.
You also say that You have too much respect for the truth...
Do You honestly think that Consciousness, Truth, can be discovered and understood just by reason and logic ?
Yet many great scientists revealed the importance of intuition and imagination in their discoveries, including Albert Einstein himself.
From Quantum Physics, ( and Post-Quantum Physics of Consciousness), from the latest studies of consciousness, it is becoming more and more apparent that it is consciousness that controls the bio-gravitational field, and the quantum phenomena.
Then You say that experiencing the Self is just a fantasy and to believe such fantasy is irresponsible.
Does it mean that all those who experienced their True Self, who attained enlightenment, who discovered the Truth, are all lunatics and liers ?
This definitely places Buddha and Patanjali and Aurobindo and Ralph Emerson and many other enlightened minds among liers.

Lucid, your taking sides is not logical, it is immature.
The logic you speak of so far is, and has been, unsubstantiated. There has been no proof, no statistical reference to Buddhists being lazy, or that your opinions merit a greater attention than any other, only a display of facts that offer differing theories and opinions, elevated in the presence of your own beliefs.

Your approach is not one of impending victory in the choosing of sides to seek approval or Truth.
It is no different than the religious jihad.


Guest, you keep repeating your knowledge but there is no presence behind it.

Yes the highest state of consciousness has the qualities of nirvana and what Buddha spoke of, being without waves or ripples was the Absolute stillness of consciousness in its seat of perpetual being, a point of reference for all to experience beyond all beliefs and illusions of suffering.
It exists in all things.
As does Gods will.
As does desire.

But you haven't convinced me that choice does not exist in will nor is desire separate from will.

At different levels of conscious awareness the meanings of these terms have a changing point of reference in beliefs and experience but, there still exists choice and there still exists desire.

Suffering occurs from the misunderstanding of these terms and the attachments to desires of the ego experienced as separate from God, not from desire or will of God united in all things.
There is no suffering in pure desire and the rtam effect of instantaneous creation following pure desire.

Rather than making broad sweeping statements it would be good to be clear and to meet the moment in surrender rather than from the reaction of your beliefs and accumulated knowledge.
You have a great amount of knowledge and you seem impressed by that fact. But there is still a humility that is missing in the self identification of your own enlightenment.

Depends on what your idea of suffering is, to some people (rich) not having a manicure for 2 days is suffering, to others being chased by paparazzi is harrasment whilst some see it as a publics right. A child starving is seen as suffering to most but to others it is getting rid of an enemy before they can fight.. so it really depends on what your idea of suffering is and if you cant suffer can you be happy? can there be black without white? can there be up without down?

You should not cite great scientists if you do not fully understand their viewpoint (and if you do understand their viewpoint then you are being dishonest in your misuse of it here). Consciousness and Truth are subject to reason and logic. You can reject this proposition, but to do so, you must embrace the illogical, implausible, and unsubstantiated. If you wish to side yourself with these, then by all means do so, but do not take offense when others catch you on it and rightly label your ideas as illogical, implausible, and unsubstantiated.

My observation of Buddhists being lazy is more than just a personal observation; Many other people have observed this as well, and have said as much here and elsewhere. Recorded history also supports this proposition, as evinced by the fact that Buddhists have contributed nothing significant to society.

Mastery of mood, Joesus, mastery of mood !
Do You feel threatened, or upset, that Your opinions might be shattered or questioned ? Are You too attached to them, imprisoned by them ?
There is no need to convince ... it´s enough to clear up some points. Is it not the Truth all that matters ? The Truth that sets us free !?

As Aristotle said, "Plato is dear to me, but dearer still is the truth"

yeah Joesus, give up your falsehoods and unwarranted ASSumptions!

Blah blah blah.

Lucid:
Opinions in quantity do not make a truth.

Guest:
You're projecting.