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Lindsay
After over 8,000 clicks on the thread in which the following post appeared, I thought it would be helpful to start this new thread so we can look, specifically, without any argumentum ad hominems, rhetorical questions or innuendoes regarding what we think of one another.

In this thread, let us not fear to say what we really think and believe about the concept of creation. We need to ask: What are the choices? Are we forced to choose between creationism and evolutionism? Are there no other options? I believe there is another option, emanationism.

EMANATIONISM
Personally speaking, I favour EMANATIONISM--the theory or belief that all creation is the result of an emanation--anything that comes forth from a source--or series of emanations, from the Divine Being. Check out http://www.kheper.net/topics/worldviews/emanationism.htm
There we find:
QUOTE
In contrast to the familiar Judaeo-Christian monotheistic view, according to which the whole universe just appears ready- made through Divine Fiat (or command), and the materialistic view which simply ignores first principles, Emanationism explains creation as a gradual process of emanation and descent from a transcendental Absolute to mundane reality. Thus there is no Creator God standing apart from, even if intimately connected with, the universe as in monotheism; but rather a series of stages of down-grading of Consciousness-Being, by means of which the Absolute principle actually becomes the multiplicity of entities and objects.


I like it! And there is more: Emanationism as a way of bridging the gap between creationists and evolutionists. Unless they would rather fight than think. What do you think?
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Interestingly, the cover-story of the current edition of the United Church Observer--an award-winning magazine, BTW--is about creation http://www.ucobserver.org/
http://www.ucobserver.org/archives/pictures/may06_cover.jpg

WHAT IS YOUR CREATION STORY?
While respecting the creation stories of all peoples, including the one told by modern scientists, readers of the Observer are challenged to write their own creation story.

Here is mine:

Once upon a time--that is, before there was what we now call space and time--I believe there was NO such thing as space and time as we know it, space and time in which it was possible to relate one thing to another as we can now. This is not, exactly, the same as saying, there was nothing. This NO thing is what philosophers call the Absolute (the unity of being) and theologians call, the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion, because of the baggage attached to the word "God", this Holy Spirit needs to be called something other. Until someone comes up with a better name, I will use the word, GØD. I do this to make it clear that I am not talking about the "God" of theism under whom I was raised--one who is separate and apart from the cosmos we know. Orthodox Jews, that is those who have a similar panentheistic view of the divine mind in all things, write the divine name as G-d, which, like GØD, symbolizes all that IS and exists. As the book of Acts indicates, within GØD, or God, we all live, move and have our being. This leads us to

PANENTHEISM, or as I like to call it, UNITHEISM

I could be wrong, but I have the feeling, that panentheism--not to be confused with pantheism (God is the sum of all things)--is on the right track. GØD, or God, say the panentheists--and so do unitheists--is not a being separate from all that IS, but rather, GØD is being itself. GØD is in and through all that IS--in and through all matter as we know and experience it. First there was Spirit. From Spirit, matter and mind, as we know them, emanated.

Because, in the beginning, there were no things, or beings, to relate to one another, GØD was only potentially complete. That is, GØD was in the process of becoming complete.

At this point in the past--and I agree that this is difficult to imagine--there was no light, and perhaps, no self consciousness as we know and experience it today. As Genesis puts it, "Darkness was upon the face of the deep."

But in the fullness of time, that is, in the midst of this chaotic darkness, light mysteriously emanated and appeared, ex nihilo--out of nothing. At first, it was an infinitely-small point of light perhaps consisting of one hydrogen atom--made up of a positive proton and a negative electron--which, in an instant, filled, as if it were a mighty breath of air, the whole of what we now think of as the cosmos.

In the fullness of time, this light, acting like an indrawn breath, contracted in on itself and into the form of a primordial ball of matter, which, eventually, began to expand and to break up into billions of light-filled bits and pieces into forms which we call galazies, stars, planets, moons, comets, cosmic dust and all the forms of life, including human beings. All this emanated and appeared, as if by magic, and began the process of evolution--unfolding like a flower, or a child--on earth. This process, this evolution is ongoing even now.

Despite the knowledge and wisdom of all the philosophers, scientists, and artists, including theologians, much of life is still a great mystery. So far as we now know, what we call organic life--vegetables, insects, fish, birds, animals and self-conscious human beings, exist only on planet earth, the place we call our home.

Meanwhile however, there seems to be nothing to prevent us from believing that, because there are billions of other planets in billions of galaxies, within and beyond the milky way, there could be life, including the human kind, out there, in one form or another. It is highly possible that one day we will find out where these life forms are and there is a strong desire to find and to connect with them.

Some people, perhaps most of us, believe that, in a mysterious way, we, along with all things, are related to this mysterious spirit behind it all, which most human beings call God. Most Judaeo/Christian people speak of Him as a personal and masculine being, one who created us, as the Bible puts it, "in his own image", and who lives up there in a place called heaven. Bible-believing monotheistic Jews and Christians tell us that God hears and answers our prayers; that He is involved in space, time and history. Deists, on the other hand, say that God created all that is but He is behaving like an absent landlord; He is leaving all the day to day operations on earth to us, his creatures. Some religions, such as Buddhism are totally non-theistic.

By the way, I abhor all form of dogmatism--the doctrine that there is only one true faith, church, or religion. Ironically, it seems that dogmatisms, aimed at creating absolute unity of all religion is the main cause of disunity. Also--and others have said this--it seems to me that the love of enriching differences, of creative variety, is the source of true unity.

I respect all religion (Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, whatever) motivated by justice, peace and LOVE--the highest good. Out of this comes true morality and ethics. Love-based religion encourages and enables us to respect all forms of life, to love this planet, even to love those who are not good, or "religious". However, because I find it impossible to think of this mysterious spirit, in any way shape or form, as an objective and personal being like us, I prefer to name this spirit using this special symbol, GØD.

Panentheism, or, as I prefer to call it, unitheism, because of the way it defines the god-concept, makes it difficult for anyone to actually be an atheist. After all, who can possibly deny the reality of all that IS and the power of faith, hope and love? Of course, because we have the power to choose between good and evil, we are free to use any word we prefer. Maybe those who truly chose to deny GØD and want live lives based by the law of the jungle--the survival of the fittest should be called contra-theists. Many so-called believers do this every day. Despite our profession of faith, look at how mean we can be to one another. By the way, Jesus called this--this failure to act on what we say we believe--hypocrisy.

Finally, in my humble opinion, my belief, my theology--based on unitheism--is more about orthopraxy than orthodoxy. It is more about what we are doing with life, and how we treat one another, than it is about having the correct creed or set of beliefs. Creeds can be helpful, but orthopraxy has more to do with deeds than it has to do with creeds. I suspect that this is what John had in mind when he wrote, what one commentator calls the greatest verse in the Bible: "God is love."

And what is your story? [KEEP IN MIND. From time to time, as new thoughts come to mind, I will be re-editing this story further.] You might like to check out
http://WWW.PATHWAYSCHURCH.CA
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Plato
Lindsay that is a really good question. So I am spending some time this morning answerng this.

code buttons
QUOTE(Lindsay @ May 18, 09:55 PM) *

And what is your story?

Science is pretty limited when it comes to the story of the begining of the universe, isn't it? It leaves a lot of empty spaces. We are limited by our cognitive abilities to think or imagine beyond this space/time "buble" (as Plato calls it) we're trapped in. So my story starts four billion years ago (see? I am already being constrained in this trap) when cosmologists believe the universe started (but what was before that, and how?). Out of an infinitecimally small point beyond which time and space did not exist yet. And then the Big Bang. And then, here we are! The past doesn't exist and I can't do anyting about while I'm trapped in these conditions. Only the present matters to me, as it gives me the ability to help construct the future which does not exist either. But which is filled with all possibilities because, unlike in the past, I'm here and now ( what matters is OnlyNow... Hey, that name makes sense, now!). That's my story (full of empty spaces!).
Plato
Thanks Code Buttons......I had forgotten where it was posted. I think it was okay to start a new thread. It just slipped my mind, and the change in scenery was disorientating. Maybe my ole brain computer is not really as good as I thought it was. smile.gif

Just go to the post you had done and re-edit, cut, and paste here. This will regain the consistancy that we had lost for a moment.
Lindsay
QUOTE(code buttons @ May 20, 08:14 AM) *
....Artists, philosophers... Bla, Bla, bla... You forgot simple lay men such as me...

Sorry about that, CB. However, I consider anyone, even a child, who loves knowledge and wisdom, who asks questions or who wonders about the mystery and meaning of life, to be a philosopher. Who was it--I think it was Will R. Durant--who said: All science begins as a philosophy and ends as an art?

BTW, besides being a layman, what are your interests? What is it that triggers your curiosity?

You might want to check out http://WWW.PATHWAYSCHURCH.CA
Pathways is part of the Progressive Chrisitianity Movement:
http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/
Trip like I do
http://www.reformation.org/newton.html
Trip like I do
http://www.historicist.com/newton/title.htm
code buttons
QUOTE(Lindsay @ May 20, 07:23 PM) *

BTW, besides being a layman, what are your interests? What is it that triggers your curiosity?

You might want to check out http://WWW.PATHWAYSCHURCH.CA
Pathways is part of the Progressive Chrisitianity Movement:
http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/

Don't confuse layman with ignorant, uneducated or gullible. I'm a layman by choice. I like you and your posts, untill you start hustiling your brand of religion. Did you know that in the name of religion and religious believes man has killed more of his fellow men than all the wars put together? And what is it about this arrogance, unique to Christians an Muslims mostly, that makes you think that your god is better than the other's, so you have to go out on a mission to convince the rest of the world about it? If you all ever led by example like others do, maybe I would have a tiny bit of less disrespect for your astrology based organized religious movement. You were asking a good question in your thread and that was my answer. I don't mind the dialogue; I disaprove of your technique, and I question your methods of communication. It makes me wonder about the ulterior motives of your posts here. I still hope that meaningfull dialogue can be established between us, so long as you are aware of my stance on the issue of your prerrogative.
Lindsay
QUOTE(code buttons @ May 22, 05:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ May 20, 07:23 PM) *

BTW, besides being a layman, what are your interests? What is it that triggers your curiosity?

You might want to check out http://WWW.PATHWAYSCHURCH.CA
Pathways is part of the Progressive Chrisitianity Movement:
http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/
Don't confuse layman with ignorant, uneducated or gullible. I'm a layman by choice. I liked you and your posts, untill...
I like your posts because they challenge me to think, progressively. BTW, check out the full meaning of the word 'progressive'. My dictionary tells me that 'progress" comes from the Latin meaning, walk (gradi) forward (pro). It is the opposite of 'regressive'.

BTW, I readily admit that I am a layman, in many fields. However, I am also curious, progressively.

CB, the thing I like about PATHWAYS is that it is NOT pushing, or imposing, one particular brand of religion. Far from it, it is challenging each of us, without insisting that there is only ONE truth, to explore the great questions life poses. Agnostics and atheists are welcome.
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