Atman—Causal Body

What is the soul, Atman or causal body? Is it the awareness present in the nervous system? Or is it the inert energy present in the brain? The concept of I exists in both. The egoism ‘I’ exists as a pulse in the brain in the inert energy and the same pulse exists in nervous system being experienced. If you say that the soul is awareness, it is born every day and it dies every day. This is the soul from one angle, which is mentioned by the Gita (Athachainam Nityajatam…). Please note that this view is mentioned as one angle and is never condemned by the Gita. From another angle, it is the inert energy present in the brain, which is eternal as mentioned in the Gita (Ajo Nityah…). Awareness in the nervous system is in the form of work. Inert energy in the brain is in the form of energy.

From one angle the soul is a special type of work and from another angle the soul is inert energy. Energy and work are inter-convertible and both are the same entity in different forms. Therefore, essentially it does not matter, whether you take the soul as work or energy. According to science even matter is a form of energy. Therefore, the gross body, which exists in deep sleep, is as good as the inert energy in the brain or the awareness in the nervous system, in the basic sense.

The gross body made of matter, the subtle body made of pulses (whether in the state of inert energy or in the state of awareness) and the causal body which is the inert energy in the brain or awareness in the nervous system are one and the same and come under one category called as creation. Condensed energy is matter. Work is another form of the same energy. A scientist does not distinguish between these three states. These three are the different forms of creation and creation is different from the Creator.

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

Anil Antony

www.universal-spirituality.org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org

Someone might just be on to something there, dattaswami.

Maybe I am merely ignorant, but I find myself objecting to some of your terminology.

If the "soul" is defined as it is usually understood - as some kind of unchanging, eternal entity - then there can be no possibility of it changing. Therefore, it is difficult to understand how theories of spiritual development cohere with talk of souls. Development implies change, but souls do not change.

Do you think that Atman is a spiritual entity, or aspect, akin to a soul? Does Atman change? I would hope so, otherwise how could it hope to develop, as it would need to in order to realise its unity with Brahman?

Advaita philosophers believe that individual "personal" souls exist as Maya only. Dvaita philosophy claims that there is an eternal plurality of souls as per Bhagavad Gita 2.12.

Advaita posits an ultimate ātman (synonymous in this sense with Brahman) as the all-pervading soul of the universe: the universal life-principle, the animator of all organisms, and the world-soul. This view is of a sort of panentheism (not pantheism) and thus is sometimes not equated with the single creator God of monotheism. Dvaita calls the all-pervading aspect of Brahman Paramatman (Paramatma), quantitatively different from individual Atman.

Identification of individual souls, or jiva-atmas, with the 'One Atman' is the monistic Advaita Vedanta position, which is critiqued by dualistic/theistic Dvaita Vedanta (which claims reality for both a God functioning as the ultimate metaphorical "soul" of the universe, and for actual individual "souls" as such) and compromise schools like Vishishtadvaita Vedanta. The 'dvaita' (or dualist) schools, therefore, in contrast to Advaita, advocate an exclusive monotheistic position wherein Brahman is made synonymous with Vishnu.

By contrast, Jiva is the psychological or phenomenological self, the "I" which appears as the subject of verbs. The jiva is typically regarded as having its freedom limited by the triple bond of anava (ego), karma (action) and maya (illusion).


Ātman (Sanskrit) or Atta (Pāli) literally means "self", but is sometimes translated as "soul" or "ego". In Buddhism, the misplaced or inappropriate belief in ātman is the prime consequence of ignorance, – itself the cause of all misery - the foundation of saṃsāra itself. Some Buddhist sutras, however, accept the Reality of the Atman, when it is equated with the essential being of the Buddha.

The need for Buddhists to understand ātman
Śāntideva (a late Indian Buddhist philosopher and practitioner) informs us that in order to be able to deny something, we first of all need to know what it is that we are denying.

"Without contacting the entity that is imputed
You will not apprehend the absence of that entity""
-- Bodhicaryāvatāra

The definition of ātman in Buddhism
Candrakīrti contextualises ātman as follows:

"Ātman is an essence of things that does not depend on others; it is an intrinsic nature. The non-existence of that is selflessness".
-- Bodhisattvayogacaryācatuḥśatakatikā256.1.7
In the Abhidharmapitakapitaka (Pāli: Abhidhammapitaka), which deals with metaphysics, the prime doctrine which allows pure Buddhist philosophy to successfully explain all phenomena is that all things happen with cause. "Ātman" is a conceptual attachment to oneself that promotes a false belief that one is intrinsic and without incident. This attachment further diverges one's route from the path to enlightenment and hence nirvāna as all forms of attachment do.


The ontological status of ātman in Buddhism
As the belief in ātman is identified as a cause of samsāra, it is not merely cognate with the various concepts of ātman as found in Hindu philosophy, and indeed the specific identification of what ātman is, is an essential philosophical concept for the Buddhist meditator.

If no concept of ātman were to exist at all, then we would all be naturally free from samsāra. What this entails is that ātman is identified as existing as a concept - more specifically, as a cognitive obscuration; moreover, it is this specific cognitive obscuration which is identified as being the root cause of all suffering.

So, when Buddhists claim that there is no ātman, they are not really saying that it does not exist, but that it exists solely as a cognitive obscuration - as an innate response to the world around us; and this deeply enmeshed obscuration lies at the root of all misery.


Ātman and the Tathagatagarbha
In a few sūtras of Mahāyāna Buddhism, as well as in certain Mahayana Buddhist Tantras, however, the term ātman is used in a dual sense, in some instances denoting the impermanent, mundane ego (attachment to which needs to be overcome), and on other occasions explicitly referring to the ultimately real, pure, blissful Self of the Buddha in the state of nirvāna, a Selfhood stated to be unchanging, unshakeably firm, and eternal within all beings (see Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāna Sūtra).

It is erroneous to construe the Tathagatagarbha as some tangible, worldly, changeable, personalised, desire-driven "ego" on a grand scale, similar to the "fictitious self" comprised of the five mundane skandhas (impermanent mental and physical constituents of the unawakened being). The Tathagatagarbha is indicated by the relevant sutras to be the ultimate, pure, ungraspable, irreducible, invulnerable, true and deathless Quintessence of the Buddha's liberating Reality, the very core of his highest being (Dharmakaya).


Ātman in Nikāya Buddhism
Atman is a Sanskrit word (Pali: Attan), normally translated as 'soul' or 'Self'. In Buddhist sutra, the Atman is the “light (dipam), the only refuge” [DN 2.100]. As contrasted to the 5-aggregates, which are anatman (Pali: anatta), are not the Soul, are “na me so atta” (are not my Soul).

At no time or location in the Nikayas is the Atman rejected. What has Buddhism to say of the Self? "That's not my Self" (na me so atta); this, and the term "non Self-ishness" (anatta) predicated of the world and all "things" (sabbe dhamma anatta; Identical with the Brahmanical "of those who are mortal, there is no Self/Soul", (anatma hi martyah, [SB., II. 2. 2. 3]). [KN J-1441] “The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto”. For anatta is not said of the Self/Soul but what it is not. There is never a ‘doctrine of no-Soul’, but a doctrine of what the Soul is not (form is anatta, feelings are anatta, etc.).

In the Nikaya sutras, the Atman is the “light (dipam), the only refuge” [DN 2.100]. As contrasted to the five aggregates, which are anatman (Pali: anatta), are not the Soul, are “na me so atta” (are not my Soul).

What do the Nikayas have to say of the Self? "That's not my Self" (na me so atta); this, and the term "non Self-ishness" (anatta) predicated of the world and all "things" (sabbe dhamma anatta; Identical with the Brahmanical "of those who are mortal, there is no Self/Soul", (anatma hi martyah, [SB., II. 2. 2. 3]). [KN J-1441] “The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto”. For anatta is not said of the Self/Soul but what it is not. There is never a ‘doctrine of no-Soul’, but a doctrine of what the Soul is not (form is anatta, feelings are anatta, etc.).

Contextual doctrinal examples being: "The Soul (Attan) is Charioteer"[J-2-1341]. ”Ananda, dwell with the Soul (attan) as your Light, with the Soul as your refuge, with none other as refuge.” [SN 5.154, DN 2.100, SN 3.42, DN 3.58, SN 5.163]. “The Soul (Attan) is ones True-Nature (Svabhava)” [Mahavagga-Att. 3.270] "The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto; it is the Light, that very same sanctuary, that final end goal and destiny. It is immeasurable, matchless, that which I really am, that very treasure; it is like unto the breath-of-life, this Animator.”[KN J-1441 Akkhakandam]


The abandonment of Atman in later Buddhist metaphysics
With the doctrine of anatta (Pāli; Sanskrit: anātman) Buddhism maintains that the concept of ātman is unnecessary and counterproductive as an explanatory device for analyzing action, causality, karma, and reincarnation in a Buddhist context. Buddhists account for these and other "self"-related phenomena by other means, such as pratātya-samutpāda, the skandhas, and, for some schools, a pudgala. Thus it is not necessary for Buddhists to posit an ātman, and they further regard it as undesirable to do so, as they believe it provides the psychological basis for attachment and aversion. Buddhism sees the apparent self (our identification as souls) as a grasping after a self--i.e., inasmuch as we have a self, we have it only through a deluded attempt to shore it up.

It should be noted that the critique of the individual self does not differentiate Buddhists from Advaita Vedantists, as they, too, deconstruct the individual self. It is in pushing the critique of the ātman through to the level of metaphysical being in itself, i.e. to Braḥman or Paramatman, that it becomes that Buddhism distinguishes itself from Advaita on this point.


Positive teachings on the Atman in Mahayana Buddhism
Not all Buddhist scriptures, however, deny the reality of atman. Within the Mahayana branch of Buddhism, there exists an important class of sutras (influential upon Ch'an and Zen Buddhism), generally known as Tathagatagarbha sutras ("Buddha-Matrix" or "Buddha-Embryo" sutras), a number of which affirm that, in contradistinction to the impermanent "mundane self" of the five "skandhas"(the physical and mental components of the mutable ego), there does exist an eternal True Self, which is in fact none other than the Buddha himself in his ultimate "Nirvanic" nature. This True Self of the Buddha is indeed said to be attainable by anyone in the state of Mahaparinirvana. Furthermore, the essence of that Buddha — the Buddha-dhatu ("Buddha-nature", "Buddha principle"), or Dharmakaya, as it is termed — is present in all sentient beings and is described as "radiantly luminous". This Buddha-dhatu is said in the Nirvana Sutra to be the uncreated, immutable and immortal essence (“svabhava”) of all beings, which can never be harmed or destroyed. The most extensive sutra promulgating this as an "ultimate teaching" (uttara-tantra) on the Buddhic essence of all creatures (animals included) is the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra. There we read in words attributed to the Buddha: "... it is not the case that they [i.e. all phenomena] are devoid of the Self. What is this Self? Any phenomenon ["dharma"] that is true ["satya"], real [“tattva”], eternal [“nitya”], sovereign/autonomous [“aishvarya”] and whose foundation is unchanging [“ashraya-aviparinama”] is termed 'the Self' [atman]." (translated from Dharmakshema's version of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra). This True Self — so the Buddha of such scriptures indicates — must never be confused with the ordinary, ever-changing, worldly ego, which, with all its emotional and moral taints and turmoil, conceals the True Self from view. Far from being possessed of the negative attributes of the mundane ego, the Buddhic or Nirvanic Self is proclaimed by the Buddha of the Nirvana Sutra to be characterised by "Great Loving-Kindness, Great Compassion, Great Sympathetic Joy, and Great Equanimity". There are numerous references to the reality of this transcendental yet immanent Self in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, which scripture the Buddha declares to embody the “uttarottara” (absolutely supreme) meaning of all Mahayana Buddhism.

Other Buddhist sutras and Tantras also speak affirmatively of the Self. For instance, the Srimala Sutra insists: "When sentient beings have faith in the Tathagata [Buddha] and those sentient beings conceive [him] with permanence, pleasure, self, and purity, they do not go astray. Those sentient beings have the right view. Why so? Because the Dharmakaya [ultimate nature] of the Tathagata has the perfection of permanence, the perfection of pleasure, the perfection of self, the perfection of purity. Whatever sentient beings see the Dharmakaya of the Tathagata that way, see correctly." (The Lion’s Roar of Queen Srimala , Motilal, Delhi 1974, tr. by A. and H. Wayman, p. 102). The early Buddhist Tantra, the Guhyasamaja Tantra, declares: "The universal Self of entities sports by means of the illusory samadhi. It performs the deeds of a Buddha while stationed at the traditional post" (i.e. while never moving). The same Tantra also links the Self with radiant light (a common image): "The pure Self, adorned with all adornments, shines with a light of blazing diamond ..." (Yoga of the Guhyasamajatantra by Alex Wayman, Motilal Delhi, 1977, pp. 18 and 28). And the All-Creating King Tantra (also designated a sutra) has the primordial Buddha, Samantabhadra, state, "... the root of all things is nothing else but one Self … I am the place in which all existing things abide." (The Sovereign All-Creating Mind, tr. by E.K. Neumaier-Dargyay, pp. 158-159).


China Glossary
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Tao

Greek Philosophy
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Parmenides

India Glossary
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Rita World Cultures Glossary
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The One and the Many
Interspersed throughout the hymns collected in the Rig Veda are references to a single god or single principle which is the source or the totality of all other divinities and phenomenon in the universe. These originary divinities can be concrete, such as the World Maker (Vishvakarman), or highly abstract, such as Rita, or cosmic order, an idea similar to the Chinese concept of the Tao< or the Great Ultimate. Upanishadic literature tended to talk about this unitary or single divinity, power, or principle to the exclusion of most other gods, so that philosophically Indian thought during the Vedantic period moved towards the One in the dichotomy of the one and the many, approaching in many instances some of the same conclusions Parmenides and the Eleatic philosophers did in ancient Greece.


India Glossary
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Brahman

India Reader
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Chandogya Upanishad
This single, unitary divinity had several aspects and names in the Upanishads, one of the most important of which is Atman, a word that originally meant "breath" or "soul" or "vital principle" (as the word "Atmen" does in German). As a cosmological principle or deity, Atman seems to be something like "universal soul" or "universal spirit." In the Brihad-Aranyaka Upanishad , Atman is explicitly called a Person that created the universe by first splitting himself into male and female halves. In the Chandogya Upanishad, this single god is called Brahman, and is "the One without a second"; this Brahman is not only the principle and creator of all there is, but is also fully present within each individual.


India Glossary
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Samsara
This dual conception, Brahman and Atman, gets worked out in the following way. Brahman can be located both in the physical, external world and also in the spiritual and inner world where it is present as Atman, "universal spirit." Now every human being has an undying soul (atman) which, because of samsara, lasts through eternity from life to life; this undying atman is a microcosm of Atman, the universal spirit. By understanding yourself, by coming to know one's own soul, one then arrives at the knowledge of Atman itself; the key to understanding the nature of the one unitary principle of the universe is to see one's (undying) self as identical with that principle: "tat svam asi": That (Atman) is what you are, Svetaketu. (Chandogya Upanishad VI.8.4ff.)


Here's the equation: Brahman=Atman=atman. Brahman is the totality of the universe as it is present outside of you;, Atman is the totality of the universe as it is present within you; Brahman is the totality of the world known objectively, Atman is the totality of the world known subjectively.

This equation fundamentally underlies the whole of Krishna's teachings concerning dharma in the Baghavad Gita.


What is Atman?
The word “Atman” (pronounced in Sanskrit like “Atma”) is interpreted as the “Main Essence” of man, as his Highest Self. “A” in this word is a negative particle. “Tma” means “darkness”. The word “tamas” — “ignorance”, “spiritual darkness” — has the same root. Therefore “A-tma” or “Atman” means “opposite to darkness”, “shining”.

In essence, Atman is the best, The Divine part of everyone’s multidimensional organism.

Atman is the Brahmanic Fire, when we become this Fire, and the Atmic energy kundalini — precious content of the “money-box”, where the best of us, which has been accumulated in all previous incarnations, is stored.

Hers and exerpt from a conversation about the Trinity (western)in relationship to Vedantic (Eastern) teachings

God
So, we have discussed where one should seek God: one should not seek Him somewhere up in the sky at all, but deep inside the multidimensional Universe. And one should begin searching for Him not far in cosmos but in one’s own chest — in one’s spiritual heart (the anahata chakra or the middle Dantian).

We have also agreed that the word God (with capital G) in the first place should be interpreted as Primordial Consciousness that dwells in the deepest and the subtlest primary plane of the multidimensional Universe. This Primordial Consciousness is One for the whole Universe and therefore for all living beings, including people who live on our planet. And the fact that the word God sounds differently in various languages does not mean that there are multiple Gods or that various nations that inhabit Earth have their own God. Words “sun” and “Earth” too sound quite differently — when spoken by people of various nationalities in their native languages, but it does not mean that people of each country have their own sun or that each nation lives on its own planet.

But still we have not discussed all aspects of the definition of the word “God”. One may ask: “But what is the meaning of the thesis that God is All, which was proposed by Vedanta philosophy?”. Or other questions may arise, like “What is Christian Trinity?”, “What is Brahman?”, “Are there planetary Gods-Demiurgs?”, “How should I understand the assertion that Jesus, Babaji, Sathya Sai — each of Them is also God?”, “How can I combine the Vedantic thesis that Brahman is Absolutely All with Krishna’s assertion that there is a yet higher level of Divine Consciousness — Ishvara or God-the-Father?”... Let us make it perfectly clear.

First of all we should eliminate various pagan deities as having nothing to do with the ideology of a serious seeker of God. Those deities are what people were fantasizing about before they were given the knowledge about One Universal God. There was plenty of those pseudo-religious fairy-tales in ancient Greece, Rome, India, Arabian countries and Russia. Let us leave those characters to folklorists to study and continue with serious scientific approach based on experimental study of Truth and information provided directly by God.

So, what is the Absolute? This word means “absolutely everything that exists in the universe”. And what exists in the multidimensional universe? First of all — it is the Creator Himself. Material constituent of the Creation and the aggregate consciousness of all levels, other than that of the Creator, are just a small part of the Absolute. Furthermore, the Creator pervades the whole Creation with Himself. The Creation, consisting of manifestations of divine energy in various eons, is like a multidimensional layered pie, in which the primary layer dominates the rest of them. At the same time this “pie” is a single whole.

“There exists only All, Single Whole Multidimensional All” — this is not only one of the most important themes for meditation, but also an undoubted truth that reflects the Absolute on the macro level.

But us, people, — are we integral parts of the Absolute?

The answer is yes and no.

On one hand we are like blood-cells in the multidimensional Body of the Absolute: we are negligibly small compared to Him, incapable of separate existence and dependent on Him in everything, although having a certain freedom of movement within His Body.

Bu on the other hand, from the standpoint of these “cells” as opposed to the Body of the Absolute as Macro-Organism we, as souls, are undoubtedly separate from Him. Moreover, we possess a significant amount of free will, which He granted to us.

The point is that we, having come into existence as separate souls have to return to the state of non-separateness, or “non-duality”, with God in His “basic” eon.

The thesis that we are originally identical to God and do not have any free will at all, proposed by some, can serve only as a theme for meditation, though quite effective one, that calls upon us to merge with Him.

In reality the free will is the mechanism of natural “sorting” of people by the ethical criterion: do we observe the rules of life given by God, do we aspire towards mergence with Him in Love? Our destinies form depending on our decisions in this respect.

The level of our philosophic and religious knowledge and the intensity of our efforts on transforming ourselves in accordance with the Desire of God determine our moving from one eon to another, in particular. As it should be clear from everything said above it depends not on our actions, but on our prevailing emotional status: whether we accustomed ourselves to living in coarse or in subtle emotional states.

If we accustom ourselves to living in the “heavy”, coarse states of malice and hate we are going to share the diabolic “abode” with those who feel the same way.

But if we lived in the subtle and tender states of love — we naturally get into the harmony and purity of paradise.

If we lived a dull life without falling into particularly coarse emotional states but without pronounced subtlety of consciousness, after the death of the body we find ourselves in the “gray” eons.

But not even paradise should be our goal, but the Abode of God-the-Father. He told us about that through Krishna, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Babaji, Sathya Sai and many Others (see [5,7,10]).

In between paradise and the Supreme Abode there is the eon of the Holy Spirit. In order to settle in it, having become the Holy Spirit, one should possess not only subtlety of consciousness but also Wisdom. One can gain it through increasing the level of one’s erudition, intellectual work, active serving other people with good deeds and persistent aspiration towards cognition of God. (The way one can become one with the Holy Spirit (Brahman) was described in detail by Krishna in Bhagavad Gita [10]).

The souls that form the aggregate Consciousness of the Holy Spirit dwell in Him being merged in one — in the mutually pervasive state. One should master this state while still living in the human body, in the incarnate state. This is a far superior stage of development of Love, than just caress and tenderness. It also implies fusion of consciousness with the Object of one’s love — a merging of consciousness with Consciousness. People have a chance to learn this in a harmonious marriage, although the special techniques that assist in mastering the meditation of “total reciprocity” play the crucial role in attaining this state.

The embodied man who has learned to merge with the Holy Spirit receives the rank of the Holy Spirit (Brahman).

It should be emphasized, that love of a Brahmanic person is so powerful, that he is able to merge in love not only with a single person, but with all people who dwell in this eon.

The cosmic function of the Holy Spirit is to supervise the evolution of all souls of lower levels of development. It is the Holy Spirit Who organizes and supervises our destinies. He does it Himself directly or by calling to assistance numerous spirits that possess various qualities, either “paradisiacal” or “diabolic”.

When we perceive the waves of bliss coming from somewhere in response to our righteous thoughts or actions — this is the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself. In such instances people say that He is granting us His Blessing. Special meditative techniques allow one to get into frequent blissful contacts with the Holy Spirit quite easily.

...In order to clarify the meaning of the word “Brahman” we need to say a few words about the ancient Indian philosophical system of knowledge called Vedanta. This is important for us since Sathya Sai, the Avatar of modern age, addressing Hindus, educated within Vedanta tradition, often uses terminology of this particular philosophic school.

Vedanta philosophy originated in India even before Krishna and was based on the pagan teaching of the four Vedas. At that time Indian people did not know about existence of Ishvara — God-the-Father (i.e. the Creator Who dwells in His Abode). This was the reason why Brahman was considered by Vedanta philosophy as the Supreme Godhead and even as the Absolute.

It was Krishna Who told people of India about God-the-Father. Later God declared the same Truth through Jesus Christ and Muhammad to the people of Israel and of all modern Christian and Moslem worlds. But people of both India and the Christian world failed to preserve this knowledge about God-the-Father, which exceeded their ability to understand it. They almost completely forgot about His existence, having switched their attention to the ancient fabulous characters (in India) or to some deified persons (in Christian sectarian churches) (for more details see [7,9]).

...There is the last question out of those listed in the beginning of this chapter that we have not answered yet, and namely: who is the Son, as a member of the “Trinity”? To know what Jesus Christ Himself thinks of this the reader might want to be referred to “The Book Of Jesus” [21].

In short the answer sounds like this:

There exists God-the-Father — the Supreme Primordial Consciousness — Who dwells in the subtlest eon of the multidimensional universe, on the other side of the “Mirror” relatively to the multidimensional aggregate of the Creation. He is the Highest Goal for all people.

His primary Manifestation, the Representative, an active Manager and Supervisor of all life on any populated planed is the Holy Spirit.

Sometimes God-the-Father manifests Parts of Himself through a human body. Those Parts are people who attained Him in the past. In various languages They are called Messiahs, Christs, Avatars etc.

In other words the Trinity, in Bhagavad-Gita’s terms, is — Ishvara, Brahman and Avatar.

But, as Jesus Himself explains [21], the term “Son” is not at all felicitous, since everyone should learn to see God as their Father (Mother) and themselves as His Son or His Daughter.

This is what Jesus meant when He was referring to Himself as Son of His Father-God. But people did not understand Him then, neither do they now...

Well, that was very long and involved and I read approximately the first half studiously, and then my concentration became less keen.

I agree with that Buddhist school that was suspicious of Atman because it encourages attachment to some kind of autonomous, eternal self. The self is dependently originated, just like all other phenomena, and our attachment to the delusion of its permanence - its worth - is only too easy, and just causes our suffering! But the self has no inherent existence and, with its original arising, the seed of its ultimate cessation was sowed.

That does not mean it's not divine, or somehow bad. Dependently originated mere appearances obviously exist, and it is the ground of all being that gives them form and substance, along with everything else, in this kind of instantaneous causal suspension of appearances. Everything is as divine as the next thing (and really it's not correct to distinguish between them).


Where is there a phenomenon that is true, real, eternal, autonomous and whose foundation is unchanging? The only candidate I can think of is the phenomenon of sunyata, emptiness, if that qualifies as a phenomenon. And actually, not even sunyata is independent - we could not understand sunyata if not for the one thousand things that allow us to analytically confirm it.

Talking about God as a creator has always bothered me. It seems to imply a first cause - an agent that is itself uncaused, but can cause. That is an empirically impossible proposition.

The absolute has been described and experienced as the undescribable. It is real. In fact it is the only thing/nonthing that is real.

Patanjali stated "it is, as if no thing" leading to the tangibility of it being hidden behind the grosser senses or ignoring the subtle for the busy, and untrained mind

It is only impossible to contain it within the boundaries of measure and resolution.
You cannot create an instrument to measure or contain the absolute, only in a limited fashion can you mirror it's possiblities and sense its reality.
The subtle senses are often ignored for the more gross measuments of the denser senses. The intellect when chained to its reasoning within the walls of waking state consciousness creates paradigms that it cannot rise above without fitting reality within the limits of the past construct of experience.

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.
- Stephen W. Hawking


The visible world is the invisible organization of energy.
- Physicist Heinz Pagels

Man can learn nothing except by going from the known to the unknown.
- Claude Bernard

If those who lead you say to you, "See, the Kingdom is in the sky," then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, "It is in the sea," then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.
- (All the sayings of Jesus gathered from ancient sources and compiled into a single volume for the first time. Compiled by Ricky Alan Mayotte) From The Complete Jesus. (Pg 71) Jesus

...the sense of being which in calm hours arises, we know not how, in the soul, is not diverse from things, from space, from light, from time, from man, but one with them and proceeds obviously from the same source.... Here is the fountain of action and of thought.... We lie in the lap of immense intelligence.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mystical. It is the source of all true art and science.
- Albert Einstein


The birth of a man is the birth of his sorrow. The longer he lives, the more stupid he becomes, because his anxiety to avoid unavoidable death becomes more and more acute. What bitterness! He lives for what is always out of reach! His thirst for survival in the future makes him incapable of living in the present.
- Chang-Tzu

I have yet to meet a single person from our culture, no matter what his or her educational background, IQ, and specific training, who had powerful transpersonal experiences and continues to subscribe to the materialistic monism of Western science.
- Albert Einstein


etc. etc.

what are the subtle senses and what's so subtle about them?

Senses based on the innate knowledge that belongs to the Spirit of man in which dwells the sublime knowledge of the creation of the universe and of its Source.
What exists after you remove the addictions created by science and belief from the material world of man.

by Michael A. Cremo
Research Associate in History and Philosophy of Science,
Bhaktivedanta Institute, 9701 Venice Blvd. Suite 5, Los Angeles, CA 90034
Email: michael.cremo@iskcon.com, (310) 837-5283, Fax (310) 837-1056


Topical Area: Phenomenology/Culture

Key words: Consciousness, dualism, religion, India, parapsychology


Abstract:

One barrier to acceptance of interactionist models for mind/body dualism is a shortage of conceptual resources. Turning to the ancient Sanskrit writings of India, we find in the Bhagavata Purana of India the allegory of the City of Nine Gates, which provides a complex model from mind/body dualism. This model, rich in imagery, allows one to account for such varied phenomena as phantom limbs, out of body experiences, past life memories, traveling clairvoyance, and perception of qualia.


Is there a conscious self that is distinct from the physical mechanism of the body? Is there a mind that is distinct from the brain? Those who give positive answers to such questions are called dualists, but they are not numerous in contemporary science and philosophy. Dualistic solutions to the mind/body problem are perhaps hampered, among other things, by the impoverished analogical and allegorical resources of Western thought. Whether we turn to Plato's cave, to the formulations of Descartes, or to the proverbial little green man in the brain, there is apparently not enough substance to inspire the modern consciousness researcher to seriously consider dualism.

But in chapters 25-29 of Canto Four in the Bhagavata Purana, a Sanskrit text from India, one finds the elaborate allegory of the City of Nine Gates. The sophistication of the allegory and the potential explanatory power of its elements challenge modern researchers to take a second look at dualism.

The account of the City of Nine Gates is specifically identified as allegorical in the Bhagavat Purana itself. It was spoken by the sage Narada Muni, who was questioned by King Prachinabarhishat about the nature of the self, and Narada Muni himself explains all the elements of the allegory in the original text. In other words, it is not that I myself have identified some passages from the Bhagavata Purana as allegorical, and myself interpreted the passage in terms of mind/body dualism. The allegorical nature of the passages and their application to a dualist explanation of consciousness are features of the text itself.

In this paper, I will give a summary of the City of Nine Gates, adapted from the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust edition of the Bhagavata Purana (published as Srimad-Bhagavatam) along with some hints as to the utility of the allegory in resolving questions that arise in consciousness studies.

The central character in the allegory of the City of Nine Gates is a King named Puranjana. In Sanskrit, the word puran-jana means "one who enjoys in a body." Soul/body dualism is thus hinted at in the King's name. King Puranjana originally existed as a spirit soul in a purely spiritual realm in relationship with a supreme conscious being, God. Materialists may oppose the introduction of this transcendental realm, which exists outside the material universe knowable by science. But even the materialist cosmology of modern science incorporates a "transcendental" realm, that is to say, a realm that exists beyond the universe knowable by science, and from which that universe emerged at the time of the Big Bang. This transcendental reality, existing beyond time, space, and matter, is called the quantum mechanical vacuum, and is pictured as a pure energy field in which particles appear and instantly disappear. From this sea of virtual particles, some go through a process of expansion that keeps them in existence. According to many cosmologists, our universe is one such expansion.

So both the Bhagavata Purana and the Big Bang cosmology of modern science have an eternal transcendental existence from which our universe of matter, with its features of time and space, arises. Once this is admitted, we can then decide which version of ultimate reality has the most explanatory power, when applied to the variegated reality of our experience. Modern cosmologists and other theorists have a great deal of difficulty in coaxing a sufficient amount of variety from the rather smooth and featureless universe that, according to theory, expands from the quantum mechanical vacuum. The origin of consciousness also poses a difficulty problem. In light of this, an ultimate reality that is itself variegated and conscious might offer a solution.

Having departed from the spiritual world, by misuse of independence, King Puranjana journeys through the material world, accompanied by Avijnata Sakha ("the unknown friend"). The Unknown Friend corresponds to the Supersoul expansion of God. When Puranjana leaves God and the spiritual world, his memory of them becomes covered. But unknown to Puranjana, God accompanies him on his journey through the material world. According to the Bhagavata Purana, God accompanies all spirit souls in the material world as their Unknown Friend, who observes and sanctions their activities.

In the Western world, mind/brain dualism is identified with French philosopher René Descartes, who posited the existence of (1) matter extended in space and (2) mind existing outside space. Cartesian dualism is characterized by an interaction between mind and matter, but explaining how this interaction takes place has proved problematic for advocates of the Cartesian model. How, for example, are impressions transmitted from the realm of matter to the completely different realm of mind? Descartes thought the connection between mind and matter occurred in the pineal gland in the brain, an answer most scientists today do not favor.

According to the Bhagavata Purana, both matter and the souls in the material world are energies of God, and as such both have a single spiritual source. The Bhagavata Purana philosophy is thus both dualist and monist, simultaneously. The interactions of matter and the soul in the material world are mediated by Supersoul, who exists inside each material atom and also accompanies each spirit soul. By the arrangement of Supersoul, impressions of material experience can be channeled to the soul. How this takes place is the subject of the allegory of Puranjana.

Having left the spiritual world, Puranjana, accompanied by Avijnata Sakha (his Unknown Friend, the Supersoul), wanders through the material world. He desires to find a suitable place to enjoy himself. In other words, he searches for a suitable kind of body to inhabit. He tries many kinds of bodies on many planets. Here we note that each species of life consists of a soul inhabiting a particular kind of body. In this respect, the Bhagavata Purana account differs from that of Descartes, who held that only humans have souls. For Descartes, animals were simply automatons. If one concedes that animals, with all their signs of life and consciousness, are simply automatons, then why not human beings as well? The Bhagavata Purana model avoids this particular weakness of Descartes's system.

Eventually, Puranjana comes to a place called Nava Dvara Pura, the City of Nine Gates. He finds it quite attractive. The City of Nine Gates represents the human male body, with its nine openings--two eyes, two nostrils, two ears, mouth, anus, and the genital opening. As Puranjana wanders through the gardens of the city, he encounters an extremely beautiful woman. Puranjana is attracted to her, and she is attracted to him. She becomes his Mahisi (Queen).

Puranjana, as we have seen, represents the conscious self. The beautiful woman represents Buddhi, intelligence. According to the Bhagavata Purana philosophy, intelligence is a subtle material energy with discriminatory capabilities like those manifested by artificial intelligence machines. The attraction between King Puranjana and the Queen is the root of embodied consciousness. The King, it should be noted, has distinct conscious selfhood, with nonmaterial sensory capability, but this capability becomes dormant when he begins his relationship with the Queen.

The Queen (the subtle material element called intelligence) allows Puranjana (the conscious self) to enjoy the City of Nine Gates (the gross physical body). Employing a computer analogy, we might say Puranjana represents the user, the City of Nine Gates represents the computer hardware, and the Queen represents the software that allows the user to interface with the hardware and use it for practical purposes.

The Queen is not, however, alone but is accompanied by eleven Mahabhatas (body guards) and a serpent with five heads. The bodyguards comprise the mind and the ten senses. The ten senses are made up of five jnana-indriyas (knowledge acquiring senses) and five karma-indriyas (working senses). The five knowledge-acquring senses are the senses of sight, smell, taste, hearing, and touch. The five working senses are those of walking, grasping, speaking, reproduction, and evacuation. All ten senses are grouped around the mind. The ten senses are considered servants of the mind. Each of these servants has hundreds of wives. The wives are desires for material experience, and the senses act under their pressure. According to this system, the senses are different from the physical sense organs. The senses are part of the invisible subtle material covering of the soul, along with mind and intelligence. The physical organs of sensation (the eyes, nose, tongue, ears, skin, legs, arms, mouth, genitals, and anus) are part of the gross physical body that is visible to the eyes.

The distinction between subtle senses and physical sense organs is important, and offers consciousness researchers a valuable conceptual tool. Let us consider, for example, the problem of phantom limbs. Persons whose legs or arms have been amputated often report that they are able to distinctly feel the missing limb, and even experience quite distinct sensations, such as twinges of pain or itching. The City of Nine Gates allegory provides an explanation for this mysterious phenomenon. Let's take the case of someone whose arm has been amputated but who still feels the presence of the arm. The arm is one of the working senses. It is composed of two elements, the subtle grasping sense and the physical organ of the arm and hand. The process of amputation removes the physical organ through which the subtle sense operates. But the subtle sense itself remains, and therefore its presence may be mentally perceived.

Since the subtle sense is material, it may be able to act upon gross physical matter, without going through the related physical sense organ. This model may therefore explain some of the phenomena reported in connection with ghosts and apparitions, and in connection with mediums, particularly the mysterious movement of physical objects. For a good scientific introduction to these unusual phenomena, one might consult Thirty Years of Psychical Research, by Charles Richet, who in 1913 won the Nobel Prize for medicine and physiology.

This model may also explain how persons are able to experience sense data during near death experiences, during which the physical sense organs are incapacitated because of anasthesia or shock. For a good clinical study of near death experienices, I recommend Recollections of Death, by cardiologists Michael Sabom.

The senses are compared to attendants of the Queen. They serve her by bringing information and conducting activity. Together they comprise the array of material intelligence and sensory capabilities, all formed from subtle but nevertheless material energy.They combinedly manufacture a sense of self, with which the King becomes entranced and falsely identifies. The body itself, the City of Nine Gates, is made of gross material energy, of the kind that can be manipulated by ordinary physics and chemistry. It is powered by five subtle airs, listed in the Ayur Veda, the Vedic medical science, as prana, apana, vyana, samana, and udana. In the Puranjana allegory the five airs, comprising the vital force, are represented by a five-headed serpent.

In the allegory, Puranjana asks about the identity and origin of the Queen and her attendants. The Queen replies, "O best of human beings, I do not know who has begotten me. I cannot speak to you perfectly about this. Nor do I know the names or the origins of the associates with me. O great hero, we only know that we are existing in this place. We do not know what will come after. Indeed, we are so foolish that we do not care to understand who has created this beautiful place for our residence. My dear gentleman, all these men and women with me are known as my friends, and the snake, who always remains awake, protects this city even during my sleeping hours. So much I know. I do not know anything beyond this. You have somehow or other come here. This is certainly a great fortune for me. I wish all auspicious things for you. You have a great desire to satisfy your senses, and all my friends and I shall try out best in all respects to fulfill your desires. I have just arranged this city of nine gates for you so that you can have all kinds of sense gratification. You may live here for one hundred years, and everything for your sense gratification will be supplied."

The King's questioning the Queen represents the self's interrogation of material intelligence for the answers to ultimate questions. The answers provided by the Queen, as well as her fundamental attitude, reflect those of modern science, which prides itself on avoidance of certain questions and the tentativeness of whatever answers it may provide. "I cannot speak to you perfectly about this. . . . We only know that we are existing in this place." Essentially, the Queen provides a monist, materialist answer to the King's questions about his situation.

The Bhagavata Purana then provides a more detailed description of the nine gates of the city inhabited by the King and Queen. Seven of the gates are on the surface (the two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and mouth), and two of the gates are subterranean (the anus and genitals). Five of the gates faced east.

The first two gates on the eastern side are called Khadyota (glowworm) and Avirmukhi (torchlight). In order to see, the King would exit these two gates, and go to the city called Vibhrajita (clear vision). On this journey he would be accompanied by his friend Dyuman (the sun, the ruler of the subtle visual sense).

In other words, the King encounters qualia by sensory contact through the physical gates of the body. Qualia are secondary properties of objects, such as color. In consciousness studies, the question of how we perceive qualia is a much debated topic. Do they exist in their own right, in the objects with which they are identified, or, do they exist only in our own minds? According to the Bhagavata Purana system, qualia, such as colors, exist as subtle sense objects. They thus have a reality of their own, and are not simply produced within the mind.

That the King goes out through the gates of the eyes to contact subtle sense objects in a city of visual impressions is interesting. This suggests that the seeing process is not simply one of passive reception, but may involve an active process of image acquisition (as in sonar, or radar). This may explain such phenomena as traveling clairvoyance, whereby a subject can mentally journey to a particular location, beyond the range of the physical sense organs, and then accurately report visual impressions. Visual sensations reported during out of body experiences could also be explained by this model. The exact relationships between the physical sense organs, the subtle senses, and subtle sense objects are not easily understood, but could perhaps be clarified by experimental work based on the overall model of the City of Nine Gates.

In the eastern part of King Puranjana's city there are, in addition to the eyes, two gates called Nalini and Naalini, representing the nostrils. The King would go through these two gates with a friend called Avadhuta (representing breathing airs) to the town of Saurbha (odor). The last gate on the eastern side is Mukhya (the mouth), through which the King would go with two friends to the towns of taste sensation and nourishment.

Through the two gates on the northern and southern sides (the ears), the King would go to places where different kinds of sound were heard. Through the gates on the western side of the city, the King would go to the towns where sensations of sexual pleasure and evacuation are experienced. During his journeys, the King would take help from two blind men, Nirvak and Peshakrit, who represent the arms and legs.

In all his activities, the King would follow the lead of the Queen. In other words, the conscious self in the material world becomes conditioned by material intelligence. The Bhagavata Purana says: "When the Queen drank liquor, King Puranjana also engaged in drinking. When the Queen dined, he used to dine with her, and when she chewed, King Puranjana used to chew along with her. When the Queen sang, he also sang, and when the Queen laughed, he also laughed. When the Queen talked loosely, he also talked loosely, and when the Queen walked, the King walked behind her. When the Queen would stand still, the King would also stand still, and when the Queen would lie down in bed, he would also follow and lie down with her. When the Queen sat, he would also sit, and when the Queen heard something, he would follow her to hear the same thing. When the Queen saw something, the King would also look at it, and when the Queen smelled something, the King would follow her to smell the same thing. When the Queen touched something, the King would also touch it, and when the dear Queen was lamenting, the poor King also had to follow her in lamentation. In the same way, when the Queen felt enjoyment, he also enjoyed, and when the Queen was satisfied, the King also felt satisfaction."

As noted above, an important question that arises concerning dualist solutions to the mind/body question is how a nonmaterial conscious mind interacts with material sense objects. In this model, there is an answer to this question. As seen above, the interaction is based on illusory identification.

To understand the nature of this illusory identification, we first need to readjust the familiar mind/body dualism to a triadic conception incorporating (1) a nonmaterial conscious self, (2) a subtle material body formed of mind and intelligence, and (3) a physical body composed of gross matter

In this model, the mind is a subtle material substance, associated with material intelligence. Mind is at the center of the subtle senses, which are in turn connected to the physical sense organs, which bring to the mind sense data in the form of subtle sense objects. Here yet another question arises.

In consciousness studies, one is faced with the problem of how the various kinds of sense data are presented in an integrated fashion. Even various elements of the visual sense, such as perception of color and movement and form are located in different parts of the brain. Sounds are processed in other parts of the brain. How are all these elements combined?

In the Bhagavata Purana model, the integrating function is performed by the subtle mind element, which receives sensory inputs from the subtle senses grouped around it. The mind is not, however, conscious. The mind, might therefore, be compared to multimedia computer software capable of integrating audio and visual materials into a single, integrated display, making use of a variety of inputs and source materials. The material intelligence, represented by the Queen, directs the consciousness of the actual living entity to the integrated display of sense data. Intelligence, as a subtle material energy, is not itself conscious, but it mimics the behavior of consciousness. It thus attracts the attention of the conscious self, causing the self to identify with it, just as we identify with the image of an actor on a movie screen. By identification with material intelligence, which is in turn connected to the mind's integrated display of sense data, consciousness is connected with the sense data. This connection is not direct. The indirect connection of the conscious self with gross matter arises from the self's false identification with the action of a subtle material energy, intelligence. The extremely subtle material element that connects the conscious self with material intelligence is called ahankara, or false ego. The whole system is set up and directed by the Supersoul

According to the Bhagavata Purana picture, the conscious self orginally experiences nonmaterial sense objects through nonmaterial senses. This takes place in the spiritual world, with God. But having turned from this original situation, the self is placed in a material body in the material world. Identifying with this artificial situation, the self forgets its own nature and that of God. But God remains with the self as Supersoul, the Unknown Friend. If the self tires of the artificial material reality and desires to return to its original position, the Unknown Friend will reawaken the original spiritual senses of the self and reconnect them with their spiritual sense objects.

The whole system therefore resembles a computer-generated virtual reality. In virtual reality systems, the user's normal sensory inputs are replaced by computer-generated displays. But just as a person can turn off the virtual reality display and return to normal sensory experience, so the conscious self in the artificial sensory environment of the material world can return to its original spiritual sensory experience. The idea of comparing the position of a soul in the material world to a person experiencing a virtual reality generated by a computer first occurred to me in 1986, when I attended a conference on artificial life organized by the Sante Fe Institute. The idea was further developed in discussions with my Bhaktivedanta Institute colleague Richard Thompson, who also attended the conference, and was subsequently presented by us in a Bhaktivedanta Institute video titled "Simulated Worlds."

In the Bhagavata Purana allegory, King Puranjana and his Queen enjoy life for some time in the City of Nine Gates. Eventually, however, the City of Nine Gates comes under attack by a king named Chandavega. Chandavega represents time, and his name literally means "very swiftly passing away." Candavega commands an army of 360 male Gandharva soldiers and their 360 female companions. Together, these represent the days and nights of the year. When Candavega's army attacks, the five-headed serpent (the vital force) tries to defend the City of Nine Gates. The serpent fought the attackers for one hundred years but eventually became weak, causing anxiety for the King and his associates. Finally, the attacking soldiers overwhelm the defenders and set the City of Nine Gates ablaze. As it becomes obvious that the battle is being lost, King Puranjana is overcome with anxious thoughts of his wife and other relatives and associates. Then the commander of the invading forces arrests the King and takes him away along with his followers, including the five-headed serpent. As soon as they are gone, the attackers destroy the City of Nine Gates, smashing it to dust. Even as he is being led away, the King can not remember his Unknown Friend, the Supersoul. Instead, he thinks only of his wife, the Queen. He then takes another birth, this time as a woman.

In this part of the allegory, we see how the conscious self leaves the gross physical body, accompanied by the intelligence, mind, and subtle senses. When they leave, the gross physical body distintegrates. The conscious self then receives another gross physical body. The kind of body received depends on the condition of the subtle material body, which is composed of intelligence, mind, and subtle senses. The subtle material body is the template upon which the gross physical body is constructed. This model allows one to account for reports of past life memories, such as those researched and verified by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia in his book Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation. In the Bhagavata Purana model, the mind is the storehouse of memory, memory of past lives.

In his next life, King Puranjana becomes Vaidarbhi, the daughter of King Vidarbha. When grown, Vaidarbhi becomes the Queen of King Malayadhvaja. At the end of his life, Malayadhvaja retires to the forest and takes up the process of mystic yoga. The Bhagavata Purana (4.28.40) informs us: "King Malayadhvaja attained perfect knowledge by being able to distinguish the Supersoul from the individual soul. The individual soul is localized, whereas the Supersoul is all-pervasive. He became perfect in knowledge that the material body is not the soul but that the soul is the witness of the material body." In this state of higher awareness, Malayadhvaja, following the yoga process, deliberately leaves his material body and achieves liberation from material existence.

Queen Vaidarbhi (formerly King Puranjana) is overwhelmed with grief at her husband's departure. At this point, King Puranjana's Unknown Friend (the Supersoul), appears before Vaidarbhi as a brahmana sage. The brahmana says to Vaidarbhi: "My dear friend, even though you can not immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a postiion as enjoyer of this material world. . . . You were simply captivated in this body of nine gates." The brahmana then instructs Vaidarbhi further about her original position as a purely spiritual self in the spiritual world.

In this paper, I have extracted only the principal elements of the City of Nine Gates allegory. The complete account is much more detailed, and allows one to make an even more subtle and refined model of self/mind/body interaction. This model does not fit easily into present categories of the mind/body debate. Although dualist, it partakes also of idealism and monism. It does, however, allow one to integrate many categories of evidence from normal and paranormal science, as well as evidence from humanity's wisdom traditions, into a rich synthesis, providing fruitful lines of research confirming and refining a complex dualist model of mind/body interaction.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
- Albert Einstein, in The New Convergence

The problem with the Bhagavata Purana, the Gitas, and the Upanishads, is that they almost invariably rely on allegory to express anything, and these allegories contain much fluff about kings, princesses, chariots and horses, and other such childish nonsense that detracts from what the author is trying to communicate. It's almost like these authors are trying to follow the dictum "Profundity through Obscurity" which I do not subscribe to. If you cut out the allegorical fluff, and just examine their core theory, there isn't much there. The city of nine gates is another dualism without much merit. The scientific connectionist viewpoint is much more satisfactory and can answer many more questions than the city of nine gates allegory can.

The problem with subtle senses is that, if defined as 'innate knowledge', then they aren't really senses at all.

This is from the city of nine gates: "The five working senses are those of walking, grasping, speaking, reproduction, and evacuation." Clearly the the text is employing a very unusual definition of 'senses' that does not coincide with modern-day definitions.

We catch some glimpses of the city of nine gates theory without allegorical fluff from such passages:
"The Queen (the subtle material element called intelligence) allows Puranjana (the conscious self) to enjoy the City of Nine Gates (the gross physical body). Employing a computer analogy, we might say Puranjana represents the user, the City of Nine Gates represents the computer hardware, and the Queen represents the software that allows the user to interface with the hardware and use it for practical purposes."

Whence it becomes clear that the city of nines gates is proposing a ridiculously simple theory and clothing it in a rich tapestry of allegory to hide the fact that it lacks substance.

Why does it have to be present anywhere? Spatial localization is a phantom of the mind, so I find it highly unlikely that it will be useful for describing anything about Atman.

I'd like to point out a contradiction.


The 'absolute' is an idea. This is clearly apparent: only an idea could be both 'undescribable' and at the same time describable as 'real'.


Thus it is only possible to have the idea 'absolute' relative to the idea of non-absolute. The idea of absolute, like all concepts, is relative to its polar opposite - the relative.

On what is the relative dependent? The absolute. How else can we understand 'relative'?

On what is the absolute dependent? The relative. How else can we understand 'absolute'?

That is the paradox. The true nature of things is beyond both 'absolute' and 'relative'. It is neither absolute, nor relative, nor any combination of those two (absolute and not relative; relative and not absolute; both relative and absolute; neither relative nor absolute). All of these possibilities fail to describe the true nature of reality.

This is why there cannot truly be a first cause, entirely unmoved by all causes: as soon as anything is caused, the thing that effected its arising does not remain the same as the thing that effected its arising, and this displays its interaction with causes.

The(1) absolute(2) is 2 words.
It is also more than an idea, it is relative to the sensory descriptions of experience and the intellectual attempt in containment of the experience in humans who have travelled the road of introspection since man first entertained the thought of who am I and what am I.
Science bases its acceptance on repeatability yet it denies repeatable experiences because it denies experience as a basis for real definition. One person won't trust another as a point of authority or reference unless one happens to like that person and what they hear.
Science without spiritual acceptance lacks fullness of experience and dead ends in endless roads of definitions that continue to pass on in the light of greater definitions.
The absolute is a point of reference that continues to draw criticism from the ego that cannot control or manipulate the universe according to personal beliefs, but it will never change, or leave its status of being beyond containment.
The ego insists nothing is real unless it can be contained and qualified.
Take away the gimmicks of science and all of its mind numbing addictive qualities and man reverts to the most prime relationship with what is inside of him/her.


No, they don't fail anything. Descriptions can only point to a direction of a reality within experience. Descriptions fulfill their function to point in a direction, they aren't meant to contain the experience.

The mind likes to argue the point that anything that cannot be contained leaves anything that supposedly is contained within the repeatability of experience is real.
To the untrained mind the absolute comes into awareness in epiphanies or magic moments, they're not substantial like the experience of hitting your head with a hammer. Hit head with hammer feel pain, hit head with hammer feel pain...must be real.
Absolute=idea because it cannot be manipulated into repeatability by the mind that doesn't believe its real in the first place. Denial prevents the experience.
The absolute becomes subjective to beliefs and the building blocks of reality through the personal identification of reality are subjective to acceptance which is usually dependant on sensory acceptance created through feelings of like and the repeatablity of the sense of gratification.
There is a saying. The Heart knows no reason and the acceptance of truth is not dependant on such sensory gratification built by these subjective realities.
Truth can be known without the attempt to cantain it. As soon as one tries it becomes unobtainable.


This is not a problem unless you are like a weather vane stuck in one position and cannot turn in any direction other than habit. When something doesn't conform to habit and one is addicted to habit then anything that doesn't fit becomes a problem.

The problem with changing reality is that it cannot contain anything and therefore does not exist. yesterday is not today and so it doesn't exist now in the sensory experience but you can sense through memory that it was real and did happen. Or maybe not...



Clearly you have a problem letting two distinctive (personal belief) descriptions coexist without feeling that one must have priority over the other, and you must follow the leader.


Translation: I can't wrap my mind around it.

Response: And you never will.

Joesus why so hostile?

???